ECW Third Round, Ultimate Submission Match: (2) Ric Flair vs. (7) Antonio Inoki

[klunderbunker]

This is a third round match in the ECW Region. It is an ultimate submission match. It will be held at the United Center in Chicago, Illinois. Assume one week has passed since the first round matches.

Ultimate Submission Rules: This is a 30 minute Iron Man format, but only submissions count. Assume no weapons are used.

#2. Ric Flair

Vs.

#7. Antonio Inoki

​

Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

First. Now, I had to glance back to see what kinds of submission moves Inoki used, because I suspected initially like most people coming into this thread that Flair has the advantage here. He's listed as having the sleeper as a finisher, one of the best classic submissions there is. But it's going up against perhaps the perennial submission finisher in wrestling history. Flair has hooked this move onto guys half his age and got them to tap out because it is one of the best and most brutal, as well as artistic and graceful, finishing submission manoeuvres of all time.

I think I'll wait for someone to make a strong case for Inoki (there's always one), but I'll likely reside lazily on the side of Flair unless someone can provide sufficient proof that Inoki was as proficient with the sleeper as Flair with the Figure Four leg lock.

 

[Bernkastel]

This is one match I've been waiting for, and it should be one hell of a doozy. For those of you that aren't aware, Flair and Inoki have met before in North Korea - which is probably as neutral a ground as any - and Inoki won. And to debunk the "But Echelon, Inoki was the guy that orchestrated the event" while that's true, WCW and NJPW both offered up talents to fuel the card. You had Americans, Mexicans, and Japanese.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=8232

And it's not like the Japanese swept the whole thing either. Inoki as a face, fought and defeated Flair as a heel in a neutral area as it should have been.

I don't look as region or city as having any sort of impact, as American fans [especially casuals who were fans of WCW and Flair's] would have watched the battle in North Korea as it was historic. Inoki's bout with Mohammed Ali also helped his star power in the States, as did dethroning Bob Backlund and winning the WWE championship. Plus he's got that nifty WWE HOF ring to show for his accomplishments.

Inoki's win/loss record against big International names is scary when put into context...

Against Andre - 111 wins/44 losses
Against Hogan - 33 wins/15 losses
Against Lou Thesz - 2 wins/0 losses
Agaisnt Bret Hart - 14 wins/0 losses
Against Sting - 1 win/0 losses
Against Vader - 22 wins/7 losses
Agaisnt Bob Backlund - 4 wins/12 losses
Agaisnt Harley Race - 13 wins/13 losses
Against Dusty Rhodes - 12 wins/5 losses
Against Roddy Piper - 14 wins/0 losses
Against Karl Gotch - 6 wins/2 losses
Against El Santo - 2 wins/0 losses

Flair as a heel won quite a few, but he also lost allot to big stars too...

Against Sting - 52 wins/127 losses
Against Roddy Piper - 65 wins/51 losses
Against Hogan - 11 wins/84 losses
Against Dusty Rhodes - 28 wins/49 losses
Against Randy Savage - 24 wins/91 losses
Against Ricky Steamboat - 24 wins/38 losses
Against Shawn Michaels - 8 wins/48 losses
Against Andre - 0 wins/8 losses
Against Bret Hart - 5 wins/48 losses
Against Harley Race - 13 wins/13 losses
Against Terry Funk - 16 wins/1 loss

This shows that Flair, being a natural heel, lost more big matches than Inoki, who was a natural face. And it's not like Inoki hasn't lost in Japan before, as Hogan beat him for the IWGP world title.

The stipulation works well for both men - it'll be the figure four vs the sleeper and octopus stretch. But in the end Inoki should win this match. He's beaten Flair before in a neutral setting, where neither men had a fan base, with both WCW and New Japan running a joint show.

Vote Inoki.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Very well explained by Echelon.

Both are known for their big match success and Inoki's faced some of the same stars as Flair's faced, but one thing that isn't mentioned as much in Echelon's post is Inoki's lack of success in America. It's just not there.

Flair on the other hand, has one his biggest matches in the United States, and even regained his NWA Worlds Heavyweight Title against Ron Garvin in Chicago at Starrcade 87. And this is a submission match, which could work in both of their favors. Inoki's submissions wore down opponents and his Sleeper Hold was only used when someone didn't do business with him. Flair's Figure Four has finished off many opponents and won him a lot of his titles.

I won't lose sleep if Flair loses as he's lost to Inoki in Korea, but I'm voting for Flair as he's my personal choice.

 

[deem]

Great post by Echelon. I really love the structure of arguments such as that, it's exactly the way I like to vote.

I will say that I'd take Illinois to be less of a neutral venue and more of a pro-Flair venue though. It's in America ffs lol. Still, Inoki's over enough to be working face in the states vs a prime Flair, so that's not such a factor at all.

Any way we can have a look at Inoki's win/loss record in America? He travelled over, right? That'd give a decent indication as well - based on his Japan form, he's tough to go against.

This is to pick the greatest of all time - I'm very happy to see either of these guys advancing. Looking forward to people passionately taking sides, I can't imagine being able to do so. Sooo on the fence.

 

[Bernkastel]

Very well explained by Echelon.
Both are known for their big match success and Inoki's faced some of the same stars as Flair's faced, but one thing that isn't mentioned as much in Echelon's post is Inoki's lack of success in America. It's just not there.

I think what you mean is lack of big names, because he had plenty of success in the States.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=1...rika&location=&arena=&showtype=&worker=&text=

Cagematch.net has 31 matches on record for Inoki wrestling in the States. His overall record is 25 wins and 6 loses. Two of those losses [one via DQ, the other in a draw] came from then WWE champion Bob Backlund, whom Inoki defeated for said championship in Japan.

The fact that Backlund can't pin Inoki in the States, but Inoki can pin Backlund in Japan - and for the title no less - should speak volumes about the integrity he had as a draw.

 

[PsychoBlack]

Ric Flair would destroy Inoki's knee and then put him into the figure four at about 25 minutes for the submission and the win.

Flair in America in the 1980's would not have lost a one off match to damn near anyone from any era. He'd get the shit kicked out of him, but, Naitch would find a way to win as he's done so many times over the years.

Just to throw it out there Flairs beat guys Like Tsuruta, Baba, and Tenryu IN JAPAN. All of these guys have god like status in the land of the rising sun the same way that Inoki does, and if Flair can beat them in their home country I'll be damned if he couldn't get a win off of Inoki in America.

 

[Bernkastel]

Ric Flair would destroy Inoki's knee and then put him into the figure four at about 25 minutes for the submission and the win.

Flair in America in the 1980's would not have lost a one off match to damn near anyone from any era. He'd get the shit kicked out of him, but, Naitch would find a way to win as he's done so many times over the years.

You mean when he and the NWA were getting their asses kicked in ratings and revenue by WWE and Hulkamania? And that was the same Hogan that Inoki has multiple wins over.

You could wank the location like no tomorrow, but really it doesn't matter. Flair and Inoki have met on neutral ground in a event that was co promoted by both WCW and New Japan and Flair lost. He's lost big matches in the 80's, and he'd lose to Inoki again here.

Just to throw it out there Flairs beat guys Like Tsuruta, Baba, and Tenryu IN JAPAN. All of these guys have god like status in the land of the rising sun the same way that Inoki does, and if Flair can beat them in their home country I'll be damned if he couldn't get a win off of Inoki in America.

So? Inoki rarely lost when he came to the States; not even the WWE champion could pin him clean, yet Inoki won the title in Japan. If Flair were to have fought Inoki in his prime in the States the match would have ended in either a DQ or a draw. If Backlund couldn't pin Inoki clean, how could Flair?

The gimmick works well for both men; Flair has the figure 4, and Inoki has the sleeper and octopus stretch. I could see Inoki winning 2-1 with the sleeper at the end of the 3rd fall as the clock winds down...

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

I'm not going to lie, this is a very close one. After learning about Inoki's Octopus stretch,which I had plainly forgotten, it levelled the playing field. For me, the thing that divides these two guys is the craftiness of Flair. Inoki is a fair fighter and is going to use his moves when he gets the opportunity to hook them on, but it's very difficult to do that with Flair.

I've seen Flair hooked in submission loads of times and find a way out, a rake to the eye, grabbing the ropes, a reversal, and I don't think Inoki could force more than a single submission out of Flair in the whole period. But Flair is clever and he's going to adjust things to make the job easier if he can. The rules say to assume no weapons are used but Flair might wrap the move around the ring post or do something behind the ref's back or just generally be the dirtiest player in the game with thumbs to eyes or low blows. I think he creates the scenario to win this match.

I can see this match being either 1-0 or 2-1, but in the favour of Flair. And when it comes down to it, I just think he's the better all round wrestler, one of the top five ever. Inoki may be enough for Flair to handle in the ring, but he won't outwit him and that'll be he undoing.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Well Inoki certainly holds his own against Flair in ultimate submission, he also like Flair can wrestle 30 minutes while writing a novel and both are big names no doubt, both can win but Inoki in the states could hold him back. Now Inoki has wins against some big names in the states but I wouldn't say any of them were the likes of Ric Flair either. Bob Backlunds great and WWF champion at the time he drew but Bob ain't Flair that's for sure not to mention this match is in Chicago a place where Flair is over like 5 cent hot wings.

I'm not knocking Inoki in any way as he's a big draw but he happens to be facing another big draw who is white hot in Chicago. At the same time though I don't see Inoki tapping or Flair for that matter. Tough call.This ones a toss up for me and it could go either way, I'll sleep on it.

 

[Dirk]

Flair has hooked this move onto guys half his age and got them to tap out because it is one of the best and most brutal, as well as artistic and graceful, finishing submission manoeuvres of all time.

Sorry bro, I tried to, but I couldn't let this one go, I have to respectfully disagree about how the figure four looks. You have two grown men sitting on the mat, with Flair wiggling and smiling that stupid smile - nothing artistic or graceful about it.

While I know little to zero about both guys, wiki listed some of Inoki's signature moves as the cross-armbreaker, two types of armbars and also the indian deathlock. That's aside from the sleeper he used as a finisher. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - like I said, I know NOTHING about Inoki (and not much more about Flair, who was also a bit before my time).

To me it comes down to the quality of the move-set. Flair had the face-bump, which was cool. He had the chops to the chest with the "WOO" and he had the finger-to-the-eye. Extremely charismatic, but it has fuck-all to do with "real" rasslin'. His only "real" moves were his finisher and the chop blocks. He was a true entertainer, but Inoki has a much better arsenal. Still open to persuasion, but for the time being I think Inoki is taking it.

 

[PsychoBlack]

You mean when he and the NWA were getting their asses kicked in ratings and revenue by WWE and Hulkamania? And that was the same Hogan that Inoki has multiple wins over.

What does this have to do with anything? We're not talking about ratings, revenue, WWE, or Hulkamania

You could wank the location like no tomorrow, but really it doesn't matter. Flair and Inoki have met on neutral ground in a event that was co promoted by both WCW and New Japan and Flair lost. He's lost big matches in the 80's, and he'd lose to Inoki again here.

This match isn't in a neutral location though, name one town that Flair would not have the crowd behind him in the states, just one? You can't

So? Inoki rarely lost when he came to the States; not even the WWE champion could pin him clean, yet Inoki won the title in Japan.

Ric Flair> Bob Backlund and it's not even close. Flair beating top Japanese stars in Japan means a lot here. All of the guys that he had squared off against were on equal footing with Inoki and he beat them in their home country. I doubt Inoki would come over and beat Flair.

If Flair were to have fought Inoki in his prime in the States the match would have ended in either a DQ or a draw. If Backlund couldn't pin Inoki clean, how could Flair?

So your saying the best that Inoki can hope for is a draw, you need to change your vote right now for not even being confident enough to give him an actual win here. Once again though Flair>Backlund

The gimmick works well for both men; Flair has the figure 4, and Inoki has the sleeper and octopus stretch. I could see Inoki winning 2-1 with the sleeper at the end of the 3rd fall as the clock winds down...

I could see Flair winning 1-0 with the figure four seconds before the clock ran out.

 

[Bernkastel]

What does this have to do with anything? We're not talking about ratings, revenue, WWE, or Hulkamania

Drawing ratings and revenue is a big part of what makes a good wrestler. Flair wasn't as good as Hogan, but Inoki was so good that he defeated Hogan numerous times. Why shouldn't he be able to beat Flair here when he's done so before?

This match isn't in a neutral location though, name one town that Flair would not have the crowd behind him in the states, just one? You can't

If that's the case then the ECW region would have neutralized the advantage, since neither guy worked for that company. When Inoki worked a big name in in the States the match would either end in a draw, or he'd win.

Couple that with the fact that Flair has lost to big names before in his prime, so it's easily feasible that he'd lose again to Inoki. Plus it's not like the Chicago audience wouldn't know who Inoki was. Not only was the Collision in Korea broadcasted on television, but Inoki appeared numerous times on WWE programming in major events, and unlike Yoshi Tatsu, he actually beat big names.

Ric Flair> Bob Backlund and it's not even close.

You sure about that? There's a strong case that could be made that Backlund was making WWE money, while Flair was actually losing the NWA money when WWE was dominating with Hogan at the wheel. And it's not like Backlund didn't have any strong competition either.

Flair beating top Japanese stars in Japan means a lot here. All of the guys that he had squared off against were on equal footing with Inoki and he beat them in their home country. I doubt Inoki would come over and beat Flair.

No they weren't; not even close. Inoki was easily the second biggest star that Japan has ever had throughout the 70's and 80's, and he has the resume to prove that.

So your saying the best that Inoki can hope for is a draw, you need to change your vote right now for not even being confident enough to give him an actual win here. Once again though Flair>Backlund

Except the fact that Inoki has beaten Flair in a neutral area before. Looking at his resume, it would easy to suggest that Inoki would pin Flair in Japan, but he was never pinned by Backlund in the States, and he was WWE champion. If Inoki and Flair had never faced off before then you might have had more momentum, but they did fight each other, and Flair lost.

 

[HBsam31]

After reading all of the arguments I am going to have to vote Inoki. It seems as he does have some big wins against Flair on neutral ground, and to me that is a big stat. Flair is one of my all time favorites, and i really think this one could go either way, but I have been convinced to vote Inoki.

 

[deem]

Finding this one quite difficult still. I mean that win in Korea is a pretty big edge towards Inoki here. Flair has an excellent overall record overseas against Japanese legends - 2 wins 2 draws with Jumbo, a win over a young Misawa, two wins and a draw with Tenryu, a draw with Chono, beat Hiroshi Hase and Hiroyoshi Tenzan both in Japan, the list goes on. The only two Japanese wrestlers that I can find that actually got the best of Flair are Kensuke Sasaki and Antonio Inoki, both winning their only match together.

What I'm intrigued about as to how fighting in the States differs from Korea. While Korea IS a neutral ground for both, the environment/culture is different enough for it to be more of an obstacle for Flair than it is for Inoki in my opinion.

All you can do is look at the records of the Japanese greats that Flair fought both in Asia and in North America. That list is short as far as I can see - Fujinami, Muta and Tenryu.

Vs Tenryu, they fought three times in Japan and once in America. Flair won them all apart from one draw in Japan.

Vs Fujinami, Flair got the first win in Japan between them, but then lost his title in Japan in their next match before getting it back in America.

Vs Muta - Flair won all fifteen matches between them in the States, losing their only match in Japan.

Flair Vs Japanese greats in Japan - 3 wins, 1 draw, 2 losses.
Flair Vs the same wrestlers in the States - 17 wins no losses.

This is where it's gets tough and judgement needs to be used rather than facts. Inoki is better than Muta, Fujinami and Tenryu. and Korea is neutral Vs Japan being against Flair.

So it's a question of weighting the fact that Flair has a flawless record against lesser Japanese greats in the States (afaik) Vs Inoki having the win in Korea.

Inoki's record in the States IS impressive, but as mentioned he wasn't really tested as such, failing to win when he did face the big names. His biggest wins are probably Stan Hansen and Steve Williams, but he failed twice to get the job done against Backlund. I think it takes a very rose-tinted view to claim that Backlund=Flair personally, I definitely see Flair as a tougher opponent in a tournament like this.

This is tough. In kayfabe I think both are equally adept at wearing down and submitting an opponent - I can definitely see over time being booked to keep both men looking as dominant as possible.

I need more time.

 

[Tastycles]

I don't often listen to the arguments on here, truth be told, but Echelon has sold me. The fact is Inoki did beat American greats on a number of occasions and Flair has done the job for big name foreigners a fair few times. People who's opinions I respect inform me that Inoki is overrated, but I can't believe that is moreso than Flair. Inoki gets my vote.

 

[Papa Pillman]

For the non-kayfabe, resume argument...

My feeling is that if Undertaker beats Misawa in this tourney, then Flair goes over Inoki.

The only thing that allows Taker to be in Misawa's league was essentially an argument that his drawing power and importance trumped Misawa's due to the America is somehow automatically greater than Japan factor that so many want to employ when convenient. Beyond that argument, Misawa's resume is, at the least, slightly superior to Taker's in nearly every way imaginable.

Flair is essentially the Inoki of the States. Or, in turn, Inoki is the Flair of Japan. All I ask is be consistent. If you helped Taker beat Misawa, who is marginally better than Taker across the board, then whatever pro-America reasoning you used should make you feel obligated to vote for Flair who at worst is Inoki's equal.

Also to spin it back to the gimmick of the match...

Weapons may not be in use, but Flair wasn't necesarily a big weapons guy anyway. The fact remains that Flair cannot lose falls via DQ per anything stated in the stipulation for the match. Meaning "the dirtiest player in the game" can cheat at will to maintain the advantage, and he also cannot be counted out for running away if he has a lead. This should give Flair the benefit of any existing doubts. Flair would win via some rule bending, one or two well placed figure fours, and a cat and mouse game that keeps him out of harms way while the clock expires.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

I know of Inoki's win loss record before this. I know how good he is. How much of an impact he has had. And how he booked himself to the moon. He is a special draw in the US, and has good wins over some stellar names.

Again, gut feeling is Inoki. Echelon's speech on human rights is Inoki, You're Inoki, I am Inoki.

Vote Inoki.

 

[deem]

I don't often listen to the arguments on here, truth be told, but Echelon has sold me. The fact is Inoki did beat American greats on a number of occasions and Flair has done the job for big name foreigners a fair few times. People who's opinions I respect inform me that Inoki is overrated, but I can't believe that is moreso than Flair. Inoki gets my vote.

Not calling you out here Tasty I'm just genuinely interested - any evidence that Flair jobbed to big name foreigners in North America with any type of regularity? I literally can't find one.

edit: I obviously mean guys that were more famous as wrestlers in their own countries, not people like Andre or Canadians or whatever.

 

[Tastycles]

I didn't mean in North America, I just meant generally. Most of Flair's matches with foreigners were in NWA outposts.

 

[deem]

I didn't mean in North America, I just meant generally. Most of Flair's matches with foreigners were in NWA outposts.

Aah ok, yeah I found the same.

I'm at a dead end here and I need to vote one way or another as it's the sole third round match I havn't in yet. To summarise my thoughts;

Inoki won their only match together in a neutral region that slightly favoured Inoki - even the commentator says during the match that without making excuses for Flair, anyone that's made the plane journey will know the jetlag effect. To be fair though, many Americans got the win on that card so there are few excuses.

Here, Flair's at home.

Counter to that - despite Flair being at home, Inoki is a global star and would be be over in the States.

Flair's unbeaten against some great Japanese talent in North America - none as good as Inoki though.

Flair's done pretty poorly abroad in general, losing to Muta and his title to Fujinami in Japan/Colon + Morales in Puerto Rico etc. He does poorly getting abroad too (plane crash joke zomg too soon)

Meanwhile, Inoki's not managed to get it done in the States vs similar calibre; he's done perfectly fine against lesser talent.

Both perfectly suit the gimmick.

It'd be unusual for someone to go 2-0 over Flair in their two meetings together.

Inoki is the last Japanese star left in the tournament - would make sense for him to go as far as possible to keep the interest of that region. An absolute megastar, where as there are other north americans to compare with Flair.

The draw is irrelevant - CM Punk is their next round opponent, neither have history with him.

Most importantly, and I can't believe nobody hasn't been mentioned - Inoki was WELL past his prime in that match with Flair. If anyone said that and I missed it, oops. It occurred during his retirement tour 3 years before he finally hung up his boots. He was 52 during the match; Flair was 46 and close to kayfabe prime. Here's the match too;

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6214n_ric-flair-vs-antonio-inoki_sport#.UVt94ZNO8oo


Without Inoki having a win over Flair at a neutral ground 20 years out of his prime, I'd give the edge to Flair. Wrestling in the States is a bigger hurdle for Inoki than a lot are giving out. Still, it's close to balancing and he got the win as a shell of his former self. That's enough for me to vote Inoki here.