The End of Ladder Matches, Please.

[The Redcrosse Knight]

This past Sunday I watched as three talented individuals attempted suicide via stupid risks. What would the WWE be like without Shelton Benjamin, Jeff Hardy and The Undertaker?

Shelton Benjamin attempted a swanton onto the MITB participants outside of the ring. I say 'attempted' because his head and neck seemed to took the force of the blow. 'What will life be like for a parapalygic Shelton Benjamin?' I wondered. He'd probably get a column on WWE.com, appear at fundraisers, etc. before being quietly released years later. 'Poor Shelton' we'll all say.

Jeff Hardy leapt (leaped?) from a ladder in an attempt to crush his brothers skull. Intstead he compacted his lumbar vertebrae. A setback like this would surely send Jeff back into a downwardspiral featuring meth and back ally tricks (he was always the 'pretty' one). With his dog recently passing and his brother betraying him, Jeff would be out of friends, and out of work. 'Poor Jeff' some of us would say.

The Undertaker was not partaking in botched ladder stunts, but he is included by proxy. Since Wrestlemania 10, being in the ring with Shawn Michaels has created a dangerous work environment. His brand of one-up-man-ship entertainment, first illustrated in a Wrestlemania ladder match, motivates others to take stupid risks a la The Undertaker's leap over the top rope. None expected him to sit up after that head first landing on the outside mat. 'Poor Shawn Michaels' we wouldn't say.

WWE, please stop subjecting your employess to these hazardous work environments and bring back the one hour mat wrestling classics of the 30's so we can watch our favourite stars for years to come. If you still have viewers.

 

[Sparky]

Good post but expect alot of discussion.

You want the ladder match abolished? None of the wrestlers involved Will do a move they are not comfortable with. And any move that Vince thinks will be to dangerous he won't allow. and after that, if they injure themself its their own fault. They do practise first you know?

the WWE Will not replace the ladder match with Matt wrestling. why? Because its just not interesting enough. what would you prefer to pay to watch? High spots, Sick bumps and it may be the sick part of us speaking, but the risk of someone getting injured, Or boring old wrestling where there is alot of submission moves?

Its not like they have them all the time. If they was doing them week in week out, It may seem like a threat to injury, but its not. and they rehearse alot before the real thing. So the only people in risk are the people who "both" it alot.

 

[rk-owned2009]

its entertainment. all the superstars know the risk when they signed their contracts. honestly im sure the WWE has all the MiTB competitors sign some sort of injury wavier in order for them to participate, now the undertaker thing... yeah that was a botched spot at WM25, but when was the last time he hit that perfectly? 1999? lol but really thats what happens when a 43 year old 6 foot 10, 300 pounder tries and jumps over ring ropes. Its all entertainment. Since you want ladder matches gone i suppose you want all the gimmick matches gone too...

Im pretty sure more people have gotten hurt in a Hell in a Cell match or hell a regular match compared to ladder matches... lets look at injuries.

1. Stone Cold - His 1st major next injury was due to a piledriver in a singles match with Owen Hart... no gimmick to the match
2. Chris Benoit - He broke his neck doing a back suplex off the top rope... no ladders.
3. Triple H - When he tore his quad those 2 times it was all a freak accident.
4. John Cena - When he injured his neck it was because of a Batista Bomb.

What im trying to get across is that risks are everywhere in wrestling and you can't be hell bent on not seeing ladder matches, although danger is elevated in those matches they are heavily rehearsed and scripted so injuries happening are about as likely in a gimmick match as they are in a regular match... so quit complaining you have nothing to do with the business and just be entertained.

 

[HBK-aholic]

No, ladder matches should not be stopped. Not until there is no person left in the WWE comfortable enough to do them - do you really think that they'd do a move they weren't comfortable with? Or that Vince thought would be a risk? If you don't think Vince is compassionate, think of it as a way the WWE would get bad publicity - he won't allow anything that puts anyone in any danger.

 

[wewanttables]

Here I was mad that ECW has not had an extreme match for its title in... a year. Ladder matches are awsome to watch. They are dangerous but so are mat matches, hardcore matches, and most anything else done in the squared circle. It is their job.

 

[Rome]

I disagree – whole heartedly.

Ladder matches aside from being a classic institution in the industry are a huge springboard for young high flying talent – you think guys like Jeff Hardy or Edge would be where they are today if not for their willingness to dive 30 feet off the top of one?

Shawn Michaels is another great example of a guy who cut his teeth in them to make a name. The success is undeniable – no matter how dangerous.

Furthermore, I'd even go as far as to say that if danger is what you want to avoid, you should probably be avoiding cage matches, or "extreme rules" matches of any kind. Being hit in the head with inanimate objects that are generally comprised of metal and are very hard is much worse than taking a bump off a 12, 24, or whatever-foot ladder.

Keep in mind, The Redcrosse Knight – someone like Steve Austin was nearly paralyzed for a simple piledriver. Darren Drozdov fractured two disks in his neck and is now a quadriplegic because of a very standard in-ring screw up. Injuries are a part of everyday occurance in this business.

 

[Miko]

The ladder match needs to stay, if it was abolished then Shelton Benjamin would be even more worthless than he is already, John Morrison couldnt make everyone think he's cool by doing a moonsault with a ladder and Jeff Hardy wouldnt be nearly as over.

Lets face it, if there wasnt a need for filler wrestlers in MITB then Shelton Benjamin may as well not have a job.

 

[rowdy ruben]

this just shows how much passion these men have to enterain the fans. i say keep up the good work guys. by the way if they r gonna risk there lives there is no better place nd time to do it then the biggest event of the year

 

[OIL]

WWE wrestlers know they're going to get hurt. It's impossible not getting hurt when you get involved in this business. You're going to break a bone, tear a muscle or something else. It's part of the job. You can't be perfect all the time.

So, if the WWE superstars are happy then why shouldn't they take part in ladder matches? Some wrestlers may have been dreaming of taking part in a ladder match since they were a child, trying to replicate what they saw when they were younger. If they want to take risks to entertain the crowd, they can.

 

[RATED R CHAMPION]

Let Me Tell You, You Are Absolutely Crazy!!!! Ladder Matches To Dissappear? Men Look, The High Risk Moves Are Good, That Gives Thrills To The Fans And The Wrestler Himself, You See, I've Wrestle In Local Wrestling Companies In My Country Some Exhibition Matches, And When I Do Something I Know Is A Risk I Feel Better Is Great!!, Edge, Undertaker, Jeff, Shelton All Of Them Im Sure Love To Do Risk Moves, Shelton Didn't Landed So Badly At Wm 25, Jeff Got A Huge Shot On His Ass But He's Used To It, That Part Of His Job And His Life Men, And Undertaker , Well He Has Always Done That Move Since Over The Past Few Years At Wm, Jumping From The Ring To The Outside, That's Not Shawn Michael's Fault, Undertaker Has Done That With Edge, Batista, Mark Henry And Many More...

So Those Barely Botched Spots Were Riskful, No Doubt, But They're Part Of Our Bussiness Today, I Mean, Ladder Matches Should Stay, Injuries Will Continue With Or Without Ladder Matches....... You're Crazy.......

 

[justinsayne]

I don't think the match has to be done away with completely I just think they need to make them more few an far between, WWE shouldn't be pulling out specialty matches as often as they do, we don't need to see a ladder, TLC, LMS, HIAC, Cage, Table, Hardcore, "I Quit" and other matches of that variety every fucking month, the more often you do these type of matches the less special they feel when they happen, personally I would love to see WWE just go back to doing classic one on one matches, if a wrestle is truly talented then he won't need a match with some special stipulation to stand out and entertain the fans, I feel the the same way towards "high risk" spots, make them few and far between and they will seem much more special when they happen, and superstars will be much less likely to injure themselves

 

[Theo Mays]

If I recall Taker has been jumping the top rope for awhile now. That is nothing new. And I disagree with getting rid of ladder matches. They ain't going anywhere. The spots are risky, but if the superstars won't do anything they don't think they are capable of doing. They'll be around for a good long time.

 

[Phoenix]

This might be biased from me because I love ladder matches, but they're the one type of match which does have an unpredictability factor to them. You never know what's going to happen in each type of ladder match.

Example to take here, 2001. There was about 5 ladder matches on PPV (about 6 in total), albeit one was in a 2 out of 3 match and the other was for the Hardcore Title. But here's the main outline.

Royal Rumble - Chris Benoit vs. Chris Jericho - IC Title
Quite possibly my favourite one on one ladder match, purely because it had energy and the amount of ways it can be used as a weapon to the max was shown. You had suplexes with ladders, you had submission moves on top of ladders, it was brill. You couldn't predict where they would take it given how ladder matches had been around for a while since then.

Wrestlemania X-Seven TLC II - Hardyz, Dudleyz, Edge & Christian
Need I say more? Absolute spotfest and was no doubt one of the major highlights to make X-Seven one of the (if not the) best Wrestlemania of all time. Swantons through tables, Spears through the air, bodies through tables. One of the must see ladder matches. You didn't care who won, you just wanted more.

No Mercy, Edge vs. Christian - IC Title
This is really a combination of the two, but a technical match to say the least. Very enjoyable and wouldn't want to overlook it.

Yes, the WWE overuse the gimmick matches alot, but damn, Ladder matches are possibly one of the best gimmick matches to ever grace a wrestling ring. It provides only one way to win and it damn sure entertains. OP, if you don't believe me, watch the Ladder DVD, although it does make you question how the hell Jeff Hardy is still alive!

 

[The Redcrosse Knight]

The overwhelming response seems to be that "Wrestlers know they will get hurt at some point, so who cares”. If this is the mentality in this industry, I’m disturbed. I've never taken a job/work thinking, "Chances are I'm going to get hurt but meh, C'est la vie ".

Does this put wrestlers in the same league as those who take jobs on oil rigs?

And does this say more about them (the wrestlers), or us (the fans)? I'm more or less trying to get in the head of these guys. What are they thinking in that millisecond before impact, when faced with the very real possibility that walking was a privilege they will no longer be afforded?

"But they do it for us RCK; doesn't that mean something to you?"
I should be impressed that there are people wanting me to applaud and encourage reckless masochism? No; I deplore these people and their artless attitudes.

"But they love us RCK, they really love us!! They want to give us their bodies!
This attitude is in no way paralleled by attitudes toward prostitution.

So I guess this would sum up a craigslist employment add posted by the WWE:

Hiring: Pro Wrestlers
Willingness to risk severe vertebrae damage is an asset.


just insane brought up the dilemmas of having gimmick matches too often. I would have to agree; how does one top oneself? Where or what is the line?

I’m of a school of thought that wrestling fans need to be teased, not put into a routine. "A ladder match every year at Wrestlemania. Wow, this is boring."

Some of the best matches I've ever seen came from the early nineties era, when I started watching WWF.
-Bret Hart v. Bulldog at Summer Slam 92. Timeless Classic.
-Bret Hart v. Shawn Michaels at Mania 12. Timeless Classic.
-Shawn Michaels v. Diesel at Mania 11. The definitive small guy v. big guy match.

My favourite match from WM25, or favourite part of a match rather, was Jericho/Steamboat. This was a superior display of storytelling, and featured some awesome (for the most part) grounded heel/babyface psychology. Even Orton/Triple H started out well as IC has pointed out.

There are so many better and safer ways too exploit unpredictability. There are too many entertaining today that are utilizing a lazy creativity; grab a ladder and throw your body at/off it in some dangerous way. A surefire way to get famous. God knows it's worked for Shelton Benjamin.

Where's the psychological display and story telling that makes wrestling what it is? I would much rather see aspiring mid card talents vying for this kind of attention, rather than jeopardizing their futures in some cheap, onetime stunt. Does the desire to see this kind of match make me “old school” and out of style?

Retire ladder matches for a while, and look to something new. Or something old. Just put down the ladders dammit

 

[aljnxh]

Wait, is this about ladder matches or how WWE would be like would without Shelton, Hardy, and Taker? Ill answer both anyway.

Okay, first, ladder matches should not be banished. Some of the greatest matches of all time were ladder matches. Plus, its the closest thing we're going to get to hardcore until the Extreme Rules PPV and Cyber Sunday because WWE never nake deep personal feuds that much. Ever since the New Year started, the WWE really broke down on the kids rating thing. We don't even see blood that much anymore.

1. If Shelton Benjamin was never in the WWE, I wouldn't see that much of a diffrence. He has great potential, but WWE isn't pushing him. He is also very atheletic, which is what he is really known for. I think he should be builded up faster and WWE give him a World Title shot.

2. If Jeff Hardy wasn't in the WWE, we wouldn't have one of the greatest tag teams ever. Matt would become a jobber and get released 9 months into his contract. If one of them weren't in the WWE, the other would have failed. The thing that disappoints me is that WWE thinks their so badass because they're talking about Jeff's suspension and his drug problems, when before they silently suspended him.

3. If Taker was never in the WWE, WrestleMania just wouldn't be WrestleMania. Plain and simple: at least half the people who order WrestleMania are probably ordering it because od Undertakers match no matter who he is against.

 

[MrBungle19]

RCK has an extremely valid point. And he raises what I believe to be a serious problem in wrestling today, if you can still call it that.

I am sick of watching all these Mid and Undercarders, who most on these forums insist need to be pushed to the Moon, continue to participate in botched spotfests in a pathetic attempt to get over.

Below are three simple steps in order for any of these so called stars (Benjamin, Morrison, Kingston, C.M Punk, etc...) to get over without rupturing their spleen.

1. INVEST IN YOUR CHARACTER.

Unlike the poor Raw and Smackdown commentators, you don't have Vinnie Mac screaming his head off at you through a headset when you cutting a promo. So instead of reading off the cue cards that a guy who ran coffee on the set of the second season of the O.C wrote for you, take a page out of Jericho's book and put some own thought into your character. How would my character react in certain situations and why? What can I say in this situation that will get me real heat after what I did last week? A lot of the guys in question in MITB have been around 5+ years now, you can't tell me they haven't learnt any of this.

2. USE RING PSYCHOLOGY

Bret Hart didn't throw himself off ladders into tables, but he got over. He couldn't tear a guy to shreds on the mic and have everyone on the building in stitches, but he got over. Not only did he get over, he's remembered as one of the best and still has tons of fans. Why? Because whether it was a long running program with Steve Austin or a one-off match aganist Hakushi on Raw, each match he was in told a logical and entertaining story from start to finish. Work the audience and camera during rest holds. Use false comebacks and lots of near falls. Have match endings that makes sense according to the program you're in or the style of your opponent. Use high spots when they will actually serve a purpose. Run all of these things together like a script, don't botch unnecessary moves, and you will have your 'Steamboat/Savage-Hart/Michaels' classic that people still talk about years later. And you won't have to decapitate yourself to do it.

3. GIMMICK MATCHES DO NOT HAVE TO BE SPOTFESTS!

The best Hell in a Cell match is still the first one. Reason being because it was still at it's a heart a wrestling match, with some huge bumps thrown in. Taker and Shawn worked the classic Little man v Big man match, and carefully placed high spots throughout. Watch that match, and take note of two things:

1. How long the match went for
2. How many spots there were

Now watch any recent Gimmick match and take note of the same things. Chances are you'll see a match go for half the amount of time with double the amount of spots. That's the exact reason these guys aren't over. Because instead of watching a match that tells a story between two characters that you care about, eliciting emotion from you with every chair shot or fall from the cell, your watching two guys who couldn't give two shits about the match or how it makes them look in the eyes of the audience, but are instead looking to get a cheap pop and themselves on a highlight reel.

Hope you enjoyed my rant, I look forward to further debate on this topic, as it is a good one.

 

[Davey McBoy]

The majority of of serious injuries that actually put people out happen during move excecution or mis steps in the ring that cause muscle tears. Ironically, a lot of tears happen to the guy delivering a move as he/she is the one that takes most of the impact. When it comes to ladder matches you'll notice that after most of the big ladder/tlc matches of the past 10-15 years that the guys are back out the next night on Raw competing.

All those stretchers, the emotion that the announcers instill by telling us "careers are gonna end!!", "this is suicidal", "bodies are strewn everywhere!!". That's called kayfabe. There have only been a handful of legit injuries during the big ladder matches that I can remember.

I do agree that WWE has to go back to basics and make it less spotty, tell a story, but people are falling for the old carny sell and are making ladder matches out to be far more dangerous than they really are. Shit, Kevin Nash caught the back of Hebners shoe in a normal match, tore his knee and was out for something like 8 months. Batista took a bump and tore his back. But after the Hall/HBK ladder matches and after all the TLC/ladder matches with E and C, Dudleys and Hardys the guys were out working TV the next night/week.

 

[MrBungle19]

I agree, guys do get injured doing some pretty simple stuff, but those are freak accidents.

At Wrestlemania, Shelton could have broken his own neck when not rotating enough on that senton spot, and certainly had no concern for MVP's welfare when he almost dumped him headfirst into the third row off of that botched sunset flip spot.

That's what makes me angry, because in reality they are being lazy. Psychology and Storytelling appear to have thrown in the 'too hard' basket.

 

[Dave]

This past Sunday I watched as three talented individuals attempted suicide via stupid risks. What would the WWE be like without Shelton Benjamin, Jeff Hardy and The Undertaker?

Shelton Benjamin attempted a swanton onto the MITB participants outside of the ring. I say 'attempted' because his head and neck seemed to took the force of the blow. 'What will life be like for a parapalygic Shelton Benjamin?' I wondered. He'd probably get a column on WWE.com, appear at fundraisers, etc. before being quietly released years later. 'Poor Shelton' we'll all say.

Jeff Hardy leapt (leaped?) from a ladder in an attempt to crush his brothers skull. Intstead he compacted his lumbar vertebrae. A setback like this would surely send Jeff back into a downwardspiral featuring meth and back ally tricks (he was always the 'pretty' one). With his dog recently passing and his brother betraying him, Jeff would be out of friends, and out of work. 'Poor Jeff' some of us would say.

The Undertaker was not partaking in botched ladder stunts, but he is included by proxy. Since Wrestlemania 10, being in the ring with Shawn Michaels has created a dangerous work environment. His brand of one-up-man-ship entertainment, first illustrated in a Wrestlemania ladder match, motivates others to take stupid risks a la The Undertaker's leap over the top rope. None expected him to sit up after that head first landing on the outside mat. 'Poor Shawn Michaels' we wouldn't say.

WWE, please stop subjecting your employess to these hazardous work environments and bring back the one hour mat wrestling classics of the 30's so we can watch our favourite stars for years to come. If you still have viewers.

I have to say that since the ladder match came around and was since revolutionized by the Hardy's, Edge and Christian and the Dudleys, a la TLC. I love ladder matches because of the huge spots you get from them. So what you are saying really is that you want to get rid of highly dangerous spots. I respect what you are saying and I respect that it the wrestler's career that is at stake and not mine. However, WWE with no dangerous spots would suck. Hell, I wouldn't even bother watching it.

 

[Miko]

I see what your saying about getting rid of stupid spots because of the risk to injury's but this creates somewhat of a paradox. You see Shelton Benjamin's career could end the next time he does something insane like in MITB, then again if he didnt do anything like that he wouldnt have a career anyway. It's a bit of a dilemma.

Of course he could always learn to put on an entertaining match without spots, then WWE could get rid of them.

 

[Stickstar 16]

Unfortunately my friend you have to move with the times, and we're not in the thirties anymore so the hour long mat wrestling matches won't do much more than destroy the fanbase that the wwe is trying to attract, which are children and teenagers, because by getting them hooked on WWE now, they have fans, that will most likely remain until they reach their early thirties.

The fact of the matter is that this fanbase likes matches that are filled with excitement and cool looking pop worthy moves. Why do you think there has been such a decline in submissions, and submission finishers, and even the submission match, because the current audience declares that to be too boring and not exciting enough for them, and that then forces the WWE to speed up the matches and change the moves to suit.

Now onto the ladder match. While i feel that sometimes the gimmick is over used, much like that of a last man standing match, i don't believe that you should stop having them because a few wrestlers almost injured themselves. They are fully aware of the risk involved with performing such spots, as are management, because Vince won't allow anyone to do anything too risky. One of the points you made is how Shelton landed awkwardly and not how he was supposed to, the key point there is Shelton fucked up. Plain and simple, he's trained how to do it, he's done it over and over again, so he shouldn't mess it up, he gets paid to take those risks, and they may be the only thing saving him from unemployment at the moment. Same with Hardy or any other wrestler, these same dangerous spots can occur in a normal match, just look at sabu's old matches, these are the risks of the job, just like whatever job you may have has risks of its own, but you, like them, know the risks and choose to continue with it.

 

[CDR]

No! Are you kidding? The WWE will never get rid of the ladder match. As much as you claim they hurt careers, they also help make them. Where would Shawn Michaels be if he didn't have that ladder match with Razor Ramon? Not here. Where would the Hardys be without their famous TLC and ladder matches throughout their careers? Certainly not here. Look, if a superstar gets hurt during a ladder match, maybe it's their fault for not doing a spot right, not the WWE's for booking it. Whether you like it or not, the ladder match is here to stay most likely.

 

[Azrael Cain]

Mr. Bungle sums it up nicely. I am in agreement.

A gimmick match is meant to further advance the first two points he raises. A gimmick match is meant to be the end-all of the feud, or at least (as recent years have shown us) an escalation point leading to a possibly crazier gimmick match. However, all of it has to be based upon solid characters and built around sound ring psychology.

Why is the ladder match taking place between these two people?
How will it further the feud?
How will it help the characters in the long run?

These questions seem to no longer be asked or even considered. Maybe it's the change of the times, that the typical wrestling fan is the typical kid these days, expecting to be constantly stimulated with spots and shiny flashing things. But I think that eventually even the spot get boring and predictable, and then what are you left with?

I think that there is a different outlook on gimmick matches and on wrestling in general from (i) the IWC, (ii) the average fan and (iii) the "old school" fan (granted i and iii can be one and the same). The fan of today's wrestling, I think it's safe to say, knows little about Iron Man Matches or build-up or psychology. Today's wrestling fan expects entertainment, not sportsmanship and athleticism or (shall we say) acting and investment.

Is it a shame? Yeah. But the majority of the fans who buy tickets and tune in to the programming want and expect the spots, the crazy flips, the gimmicks to be outlandish and probably do not realize the dangers behind them (nor the genius it takes to pull it off; and on the reverse, how great it would be to have a spot due to psychology and build-up).

I think partially the business is to blame because it continues to feed the expectations instead of trying to control or curve them so that interest is enticed in a different way, but what do I know?

 

[The Todd]

I have heard loads of interviews with wrestlers who say Vince has stopped them doing a stunt they really wanted to do. Jeff Hardy and Edge wanted to do some kind of stunt involving a swanton reversed into a spear that Vince thought was too risky. Also Edge basically pleaded to have Taker throw him off the Hell in the Cell but Vince would not allow it at all.

Vince won't let wrestlers do spots they are not comfortable with.

As for the three you mentioned, Shelton's, from the sound of it, was one comfortably within his limit, Jeff's sounded like one he has done many times before and Taker's has been done at the last two WrestleMania's at least, just this time he didn't connect with the intended person.

If you don't want superstars to take risks, let's just have a show full of promos, but the wrestlers in different rooms or very far apart, just to make sure HHH doesn't spit into HBK's eye and make him go blind whilst talking.