17 Year Old Male Shot and Killed By Neighborhood Watch

[GI Cake]

Last month, a Seventeen year old kid named Trayvon Martin was shot and killed when he was walking home from a local gas station to the home of his future step-mother. Trayvon Martin had on him a pack of skittles, a bottle of Ice Tea, and $22 in his wallet. Then a 28 year old male by the name of George Zimmerman chased him down and shot him in self-defense in a gated community in Sanford, Florida. George Zimmerman, is also part of the neighborhood watch. George first called 911 to report the crime, and then later chased down Trayvon. When Police interviewed Zimmerman, he claimed self-defense and was not arrested.

The law in the state of Florida when it comes to self-defense is called the "Stand Your Ground" Law. If you are being attacked, you may defend your self, even if it means using deadly force.


Here are several links to the story if you wish to do your own research on the matter.

Spoiler

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/53755166-68/martin-zimmerman-law-florida.html.csp

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...een-shot-neighborhood-watch-article-1.1036202

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...tes-martin-shot-dead-report-article-1.1047445

Here are some discussion points.

Do you believe George Zimmerman was using self-defense?

If you were the responding Officer to this shooting. Would you have arrested Zimmerman?

 

[SalvIsWin]

It's not self-defense. Just like castle law, it shouldn't be considered self-defense when you knowingly chase down someone in order to confront them. This kid was trying to get away, and this man followed him in his car, despite the dispatcher telling him not to, and then confronted him. So apparently there was a scuffle and then the man shot the kid - where's the self-defense? That's as logical as a situation where I corner someone in a bar, and then we get into a fight, and I shoot him because it was self-defense - it's not self-defense if you provoke. Self defense should be used solely when there weren't other options available to you, within reason.

Castle law is equally dumb, in which someone can be robbing you in your detached garage, so you go out there and shoot them - self-defense. Wtf? That's not self-defense. Dude deserves serious jail time.

 

[Loveless]

Do you believe George Zimmerman was using self-defense?

Defending himself from what? He persistently persued and shot a kid who was minding his own business. Lock him up and throw away the key, the guy is a maniac and just another great reason why your gun laws are insane.

If you were the responding Officer to this shooting. Would you have arrested Zimmerman?

Honestly? I'd have shot him in the fucking face. Guy has a gun, I feel threatened

 

[BaconBits]

Just more evidence as to why Florida is literally the armpit of the earth. Nothing good ever happens on penis shaped soil, because the majority of the indigenous population is below the ****** line in terms of functional ability as a human being.

Otherwise, though, I am embarrassed to be an American where states are allowed to even have laws like the one in play here. The origin of our relatively lax gun laws was to be able to protect yourself from a government run amok, not to legalize murder because you feel threatened and have a tiny little penis.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

On paper, such a law sounds like it might be reasonable in some ways. After all, there are always going to be situations in which someone is genuinely threatened and in fear for their personal safety or lives. The problem with this, as with most laws that actually sound solid on the surface, is that it seems to all fly apart when you apply the factor of being human into the equation.

What we have in this situation, when you leave all the various political hoop-lah out of it, is further proof of just how irresponsible people can be. What proof do we have that Zimmerman was truly acting in self defense beyond just his statement to the police? It sounds very convenient when you take into account that he shot an unarmed man who had nothing more than a slight amount of junk food on him. It makes you wonder if this Zimmerman guy was out looking for trouble and hoping to find it, or at least something that he could rationalize to himself as a troublesome situation.

Also, the self-defense claim does seem to have quite a few holes in it. After all, Zimmerman chased Martin down. It's not as if Martin was confronted by Zimmerman and suddenly started to physically attack him. This Martin kid seemed to be wandering along, minding his own business when he's suddenly confronted by this strange man. Martin, naturally, didn't know what was happening or what the deal was. For all he may have known, Zimmerman might've been planning to rob him or worse. The fight or flight instinct kicked in and the kid ran like a lot of people would probably do. When cornered, he probably fought back. That in and of itself, however, doesn't mean that the shooting was in self-defense. If I try to run someone down in my car & corner them, step out of the vehicle and continue the confrontation, if this someone is scared and picks up a lead pipe to threaten me with and I shoot him, it's not self-defense unless I know for a fact and can prove that this guy was up to something of a criminal nature that led me to chase him down in the first place. Zimmerman had now way of knowing that this guy did anything at all and didn't listen when the 911 dispatcher told him not to go after this kid. They don't let police officers get away with this sort of conduct, men who are actually trained to properly & legally handle situations like this, so why is it acceptable for someone with no legal authority or proper training to conduct himself like this?

Also, I wonder exactly what was the reason Zimmerman thought this kid was up to something. Was he walking in a "funny way" or did he just not have a "good look" to him or looked like he was "up to something"? You know, all the other weightless arguments that you sometimes hear whenever someone takes the law into their own hands and majorly screws up. While I can't say for sure, it just sounds like this fuck up went and fucked up and covered his ass because of the fetish many right wingers seem to have for guns and the "shoot first & ask questions later" mentality.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Do you believe George Zimmerman was using self-defense?

No. If the kid confronted him and looked like he was going to do something then that's self defense, chasing down a kid and him getting shot is far from self defense. Not only that the cop's are telling Zimmerman NOT to run after the guy and chase him and he did it anyways. He caught up to the kid and then the kid happened to get shot, what part of that is self defense?

Sounds to me like Zimmerman saw someone he didn't recognize and got frightened, probably assumed he was in fact a robber (since he talked about break ins to the cop) and decided to take the law into his own hands which resulted in the death of a 17 year old kid who was probably doing nothing wrong.

Also not to play the race card but he made mention over anything else that it was a black male. Not saying he's racist but it sounds like he saw a black person in a gated community he didn't know and assumed the worst right off the bat.

I mean lets say the kid was in fact a thief, he ran away from the guy and the situation without committing any act of thievery, why wouldn't Zimmerman just say 'fuck it, he's gone now' and wait for the cops to do their thing?

If you were the responding Officer to this shooting. Would you have arrested Zimmerman?

Yes.

I don't know how you can cite self defense in a situation like this. The facts are this Zimmerman shot and killed a 17 year old kid who had skittles, an iced T, a cell phone and a wallet with $22 dollars in it, that doesn't sound like a real threatening situation right there. Zimmerman is 28, even if he was attacked first (which is bullshit but whatever) you're telling me you can't handle a 17 year old kid without shooting him when you are 11 years older and probably 100 lb's heavier? Give me a break.

Not only that the other fact of the matter is Zimmerman chased him down, the kid wanted nothing to do with the guy so why is he going against an officer's advice to chase him down and just happens to end up shooting him? That doesn't sound like a concerned citizen, sounds like someone who watched Menace II Society one too many times and assumed the worst right off the bat.

Even if he was trying to prevent the kid from possibly robbing someone is irrelevant, he didn't need to chase down the kid (once again the officer even told him NOT to) and he certainly didn't need to shoot him. He should have made the call if he was that concerned and let the cops do their thing, not chased down the kid. How can you claim self defense for a confrontation Zimmerman obviously started.

 

[Champ1432]

Do you believe George Zimmerman was using self-defense?

In reality, no. It seems pretty obvious that he pursued Martin and was the aggressor in the confrontation that led to Martin's death. In this guy's head however, who knows? Maybe he was operating under some delusion that he was protecting or defending the neighborhood from whatever he thought this kid was planning. I'm not justifying his actions for one second, I'm just saying maybe the guy is messed up and thought he was Batman protecting Gotham from a criminal. Zimmerman mentions in the audio of the call about break-ins and says these people "always get away". Perhaps in his mind, he thought he was being a hero. Of course, it doesn't excuse what he did. He may have had an inflated sense of what his duties for neighborhood watch were, but I'm sure he's not of reduced mental capacity in any way. He should have known better.

In the end, it's a man being too zealous about his neighborhood watch job. If he really thought Martin was up to no good, he should have ended his involvement when he called 911 and Martin ran away. The authorities were notified, he had done his job. To run after someone, cause a confrontation with that person, and then claim self-defense when you kill them as a result of that confrontation is outside the scope of this law, I think. Not to mention utterly ridiculous.

If you were the responding Officer to this shooting. Would you have arrested Zimmerman?

I'd like to think so, but you never know. Of course it seems like an obvious choice now, but I'm sure at the moment, at that scene, it was probably pretty confusing and chaotic. Maybe the officer didn't quite have the whole story at the time. Maybe he was thinking that even if he arrested Zimmerman, nothing would stick as far as a case goes, and he would be released. That could come back on the officer as being a bad arrest, and maybe he gets in trouble for that. A lot of maybes in there, I know, but the way things go today, who knows?

Bottom line, if they want to prosecute Zimmerman, they can arrest him any time. If the guy really thinks he did the right thing, I wouldn't think he would run to avoid it.

 

[Vintage Nick]

Here's some extra info:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/21/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE82I17520120321

It refers to Trayvon talking to his girlfriend during his final moments. He was being tailed by Zimmerman and, like any rational human, had an instinct to run. The girlfriend said he should, and he did. Then apparently Martin was pushed, and his headset was knocked off.

Do you believe George Zimmerman was using self-defense?

Hell no. He tailed a 17-year old kid, and continued to pursue him despite the dispatcher telling him not to. He's a neighborhood watch captain, isn't he? Great, he let the police know there was some suspicious activity. He should have left it there, but Zimmerman appears to either think he's a wannabe-cop, or just wanted to take justice into his own hands. He chased the kid down, there was a scuffle. Apparently neighbors heard Trayvon screaming for help before he was gunned down.

As for the cut on his hand and the grass-stains on his back, I believe it went either one of two ways:

1) Apparently Trayvon was pushed. A physical scuffle could have occurred where he tried to restrain Martin, but the kid fought back. Look at it from Martin's perspective: He was apparently on his way to see his father's fiancee who lived in the gated community. It's raining hard, and you want to get out of the rain. Suddenly, you notice a car following you. What is your natural instinct? Become fearful or concerned. The man gets out of the car and throws his weight around. He comes up and pushes you, possibly restraining you. What do you do? Kick into self-defense mode, fight back, and get the hell out of there.

or...

2) He probably rolled in the grass to make it look like he was in trouble. Doubtful, but I wouldn't put it past him. He shot the kid, saw he was unarmed, and probably wanted to make it look like the kid was holding him hostage.

If you were the responding Officer to this shooting. Would you have arrested Zimmerman? Hell yes. "Stand your Ground" law be damned, if the kid was unarmed and only had the skittles, iced tea and phone on him, then I would have made sure that Zimmerman went downtown to face the interrogation chambers. Really, I think the cops down in that area of Florida are either biased, politically or racially, or they really do just suck that badly.

I hope that this goes before a grand jury. If it turns out he did shoot the kid in cold-blood, then either gas this guy or put him in prison for life.

 

[klunderbunker]

Here's my issue with it in short:

What was Zimmerman defending himself from?

The kid was 17 and had a bag of Skittles and an iced tea on him. No weapon, nothing like that and from what I heard on the 911 calls of this, he wasn't doing anything wrong. Zimmerman said that there had been robberies in the neighborhood lately but apparently anyone walking around the neighborhood is automatically the suspect in that? I go for walks around my neighborhood at night. Does that make me a suspect in robberies? What could this kid possibly have been doing to deserve to be shot? From what everything says, nothing at all.

And what happens to Zimmerman? Nothing at all, because of some nonsense about being able to plead self defense because the \NRA stuck its nose in there and since everyone is afraid of it, they get their way. They want everyone to have a gun everywhere they go because that makes things safer somehow and it lets stuff like this happen.

Yes Zimmerman should be arrested. If nothing else for pulling the trigger on the guy. What sense does it make that the guy would go after Martin and shoot him in self defense if the kid didn't have a deadly weapon on him? This law comes off as a way to shoot first and ask questions later, which doesn't help anything. Shocking I know, especially with the nutjobs in the NRA involved.

 

[Gore Illa]

Zimmerman didn't act in self defense because he initiated the fight with a boy a decade younger than him and 100 lbs lighter than him, so therefore there was nothing to defend himself from.

Obviously, this man is power crazed and shame on Sanford Police Department for not arresting him on spot. Skittles, Iced Tea, Hoodie, Black, etc. . . all that is irrelevant.

It makes no difference if Martin was walking down the street, rolling a blunt, screaming "Fuck White People", the bottom line is that the police told Zimmerman to leave it alone and let the police handle it. The fact that Martin was supposed to be there, was minding his own business, and doing absolutely nothing wrong is the icing on the cake that should send Zimmerman to prison to get human sperm injections from his cell mate for the rest of his natural born life.

If Zimmerman somehow escapes the law, I have faith that with the amount of uproar this case has caused, someone will catch him outside of his house, 10 years from now, thinking it's died down, on a rainy night, confront him, smack him around, shoot him in the chest as he yells for help, and gets off for self defense. The exact way Zimmerman killed Trayvon.

 

[Davi323]

I have deliberately avoided offering my opinion on this subject until a few more facts came out, to avoid just writing a gut reaction based on nothing but emotion.

Do you believe George Zimmerman was using self-defense?

No. I don't. As soon as he initiated pursuit of Mr. Martin, not only is it not self-defense, but it also means that the Stand Your Ground law, that has been criticized by many people based on nothing but needing a scapegoat gun law to blame doesn't even apply. Standing your ground =/= chasing. SYG was intended to cover protecting your home, your family, not to give you cover to chase down anyone away from that home. Anyone trying to defend Zimmerman based on that law is grossly misinformed. There is no legal cover for Mr. Zimmerman using it. Nor can he claim that Martin initiated the scuffle/fight that led to his shooting. That was caused by Zimmerman making the decision to disregard the instructions of 911 and pursue him. Even if they got into a fight at that point, Zimmerman could be seen as the aggressor, since he chased Martin down. Anything that happened after that, whether Martin tried to take the gun away from him, punched him, or otherwise injured him, is Zimmerman's fault. I don't see a compelling self-defense argument here. Neighborhood Watch =/= Neighborhood vigilante, unless his name is Bruce Wayne and he is the fucking Batman. He vastly exceeded his responsibility as a Neighborhood Watch captain. You watch, you see something suspicious, you report it to the police and let them handle it, you do not take matters into your own hands.

If you were the responding Officer to this shooting. Would you have arrested Zimmerman?

Yes. As stated previously, there is simply no credible case for self-defense that I can see. As the arresting officer, I would hope that I was familiar enough with Florida's self-defense laws to make a determination as to whether they could be applied or not. I know in most cases, the shooter is arrested, and then released AFTER self-defense has been determined. I have rarely heard of a shooter getting the automatic benefit of the doubt like this, and certainly not in a situation where the shooting did not occur inside the shooter's home against an intruder. In fact, I am not sure that an arrest isn't coming yet. Sometimes the police wait until more facts come out before arresting someone. It's not always right away. As we learn more facts, they learn more facts, and could be waiting until they believe they have enough evidence to prosecute first, I don't know their strategy here, I just think that not arresting him was a mistake on their part.

With that being said, I do not think this was racially motivated. I think this was just an overzealous neighborhood watchman who got spooked for some reason, I do not believe that he shot Trayvon Martin because he was black. I believe he shot Trayvon Martin because he was scared and overreacted to the situation.

 

[H33LTurn]

I have to say I hate how people have jumped to conclusions about this case. From Geraldo Rivera's "hoodies are dangerous" comments and the public's insinuation that someone whos carrying a bag of skittles and an Arizona bottle cant be dangerous, both sides of the argument have been spitting verbal diarrhea. Before anyone criticizes the "Stand Your Ground" law, let me tell you I happen to know someone who unfortunately had to use a firearm to defend themselves in Florida. Believe me the law was justly implemented in that case and if he didnt shoot the other guy he would have been killed. Now on to Trayvon. He was no saint like the media portays him to be. He fought a school bus driver and was suspended for and apparent drug offense at school. The media keeps showing pictures of him when he was young even though when he was killed he was 17, 6 ft 3, and a football player so he probably had some muscle on him. Now on to Zimmerman. He had nothing on his person to identify himself as a neighborhood watch person. He had no right to approach Trayvon the way he did and if I was in Trayvon's place I would've had a way worse reaction to Zimmerman's questions than he did. I think this is a case of miscommunication. Heres my theory on what happened: In Florida when it rains people usually stay home or hide under building platforms until the rain passes. Zimmerman saw Trayvon walking in the gated neighborhood and got a bad vibe so he approached him. Trayvon probably ignored him and walked away, which probably made Zimmerman think he was up to something so he followed him and made the 911 call. After being instructed not to follow Trayvon he stopped and proceeded to his vehicle. When he got there Trayvon might've already been there too and thinking Zimmerman was still following him, approached him. The two had a fight which resulted in Zimmerman panicking and shooting Trayvon. This boy shouldnt be dead and Zimmerman should'nt be the world's most hated man. People should wait until all the details come out before putting a bounty on someone's head.

 

[PlayTheGame]

I have to say I hate how people have jumped to conclusions about this case. From Geraldo Rivera's "hoodies are dangerous" comments and the public's insinuation that someone whos carrying a bag of skittles and an Arizona bottle cant be dangerous, both sides of the argument have been spitting verbal diarrhea. Before anyone criticizes the "Stand Your Ground" law, let me tell you I happen to know someone who unfortunately had to use a firearm to defend themselves in Florida. Believe me the law was justly implemented in that case and if he didnt shoot the other guy he would have been killed. Now on to Trayvon. He was no saint like the media portays him to be. He fought a school bus driver and was suspended for and apparent drug offense at school. The media keeps showing pictures of him when he was young even though when he was killed he was 17, 6 ft 3, and a football player so he probably had some muscle on him. Now on to Zimmerman. He had nothing on his person to identify himself as a neighborhood watch person. He had no right to approach Trayvon the way he did and if I was in Trayvon's place I would've had a way worse reaction to Zimmerman's questions than he did. I think this is a case of miscommunication. Heres my theory on what happened: In Florida when it rains people usually stay home or hide under building platforms until the rain passes. Zimmerman saw Trayvon walking in the gated neighborhood and got a bad vibe so he approached him. Trayvon probably ignored him and walked away, which probably made Zimmerman think he was up to something so he followed him and made the 911 call. After being instructed not to follow Trayvon he stopped and proceeded to his vehicle. When he got there Trayvon might've already been there too and thinking Zimmerman was still following him, approached him. The two had a fight which resulted in Zimmerman panicking and shooting Trayvon. This boy shouldnt be dead and Zimmerman should'nt be the world's most hated man. People should wait until all the details come out before putting a bounty on someone's head.

This is generally the opinion that I was planning on sharing. It really, really is unbelievable how much overeacting has been going on, let alone all the so-called facts and over-speculating that people are making up and throwing out there like they actually know what happened. Most people are paining this Zimmerman fellow as a cold-blooded, racist killer, and that the young black man is the victim yet again. Cue Al Sharpton's involvement, which has already happened. In reality, although Martin was underage at the time, he wasn't "some good little boy" as he's often being painted. He was a very, very large man at the time, not a little boy like in every picture that's being released of him. Here's a little-known fact that's being swept under the rug: Martin, the "good little boy who couldn't possibly be troublesome or dangerous with just skittles and iced tea", was serving a 10-day suspension from school. Unless you want to call the school racist as well, Martin was no "good boy", and perfectly capable of inciting violence, and bringing his death upon himself.

Now, I'm not saying he brought it all upon himself. Just saying it's possible, given his FACTUAL track record. No matter how you paint Zimmerman, he's certainly wrong to some extent, although I don't think he's as bad as most people think. Sure, he should not have been pursuing Martin. But EYE-WITNESSES and VIDEO RECORDINGS have proven that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, punching and bashing his face in, with Zimmerman calling for help and begging him to stop, leaving Zimmerman's head bloody and battered. Was it wrong that Zimmerman started the situation? Yes. Was it wrong for him to shoot Martin in order to stop the beatdown? Debatable. Both were at fault.

But two things about this are certain: Way too much inaccurate shit has been stated about this case AND there's no way that Martin is guiltless in this scenario.

One quick last note: The Miami Heat and everyone else blindly supporting Martin due to the fact that they share the same skin color are stupidly ignorant.

 

[SalvIsWin]

What video evidence showing Trayvon Martin on top of Zimmerman and beating him?

Also, Martin is 6' 3", that's true, but he's also 140 lbs, so the man was a string-bean, not a muscular man - if you're going to argue that there's been too much spin about Martin and Zimmerman you shouldn't leave out obvious relevant points.

 

[GI Cake]

This is generally the opinion that I was planning on sharing. It really, really is unbelievable how much overeacting has been going on, let alone all the so-called facts and over-speculating that people are making up and throwing out there like they actually know what happened.

Other than witness reports, and the words from Zimmerman's own lips, you can pretty much sum up what had happened that night. You are going to call the public outcry of a shooting of a 17 year old, unarmed kid an overreaction? Feel free to tell that to the friends and family of Martin. Hell, how would you feel if you heard your friend was shot unarmed walking back with skittles and Ice Tea.

Most people are paining this Zimmerman fellow as a cold-blooded, racist killer, and that the young black man is the victim yet again.

Zimmerman chased down Martin and caused a incident where Zimmerman shot him in cold blood. And how can you say that Martin was not the victim in this case? He is sitting in a morgue right now, while Zimmerman is sitting at home. That is completely stupid to say otherwise.

Cue Al Sharpton's involvement, which has already happened. In reality, although Martin was underage at the time, he wasn't "some good little boy" as he's often being painted. He was a very, very large man at the time, not a little boy like in every picture that's being released of him.

Martin was 6'3, 140 pounds. I am 5'10, 210 pounds. And Zimmerman is 200 something pounds. Zimmerman easily outsized Martin, he could have easily defended himself without the use of a gun. You are going to tell me Zimmerman is unable to defend himself from a skinny tall black kid without a gun?

Also, if Martin was your son, and you lost him one night in a shooting just like this case. Would you want the press to be flooding the news with pictures of him with tattoo's, a grill, and waving middle fingers in the air? Obviously not.

Here's a little-known fact that's being swept under the rug: Martin, the "good little boy who couldn't possibly be troublesome or dangerous with just skittles and iced tea", was serving a 10-day suspension from school. Unless you want to call the school racist as well, Martin was no "good boy", and perfectly capable of inciting violence, and bringing his death upon himself.

No one is trying to cover this up, it just simply doesn't matter in the case. It was late at night. Martin didn't need to be at school. It wouldn't have mattered if Martin was a Boy Scout and at the top of his class in his High School. Zimmerman thought he was a crook, and acted on it. If a bag of skittles and Ice Tea didn't defuse Zimmerman's thirst for justice, then what makes you think Martin holding an honor roll and a college application make any difference?

Now, I'm not saying he brought it all upon himself.

That is exactly what you are saying. Don't try and say otherwise.

Just saying it's possible, given his FACTUAL track record. No matter how you paint Zimmerman, he's certainly wrong to some extent,

He is wrong to the extent of shooting an unarmed black kid he chased down in a gated community.

although I don't think he's as bad as most people think. Sure, he should not have been pursuing Martin. But EYE-WITNESSES and VIDEO RECORDINGS have proven that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, punching and bashing his face in

[YOUTUBE]6-_Qn9ZEj9Q[/YOUTUBE]

Take a look at this video. Do you see any bruises or blood that would indicate Zimmerman was helpless to Martin's attack? Surely if Zimmerman was helpless to Martin's attack, he would have more notable cuts and bruises upon Zimmerman's face?

with Zimmerman calling for help and begging him to stop, leaving Zimmerman's head bloody and battered. Was it wrong that Zimmerman started the situation? Yes. Was it wrong for him to shoot Martin in order to stop the beatdown? Debatable. Both were at fault.

How is Martin at fault here? Martin didn't do a damn thing to incite a fight with Zimmerman. He obviously didn't want anything to do with him because he was trying to escape him. If anything, Martin was trying to defend himself from his stalker.

But two things about this are certain: Way too much inaccurate shit has been stated about this case AND there's no way that Martin is guiltless in this scenario.

Because the media doesn't put every single photo of Martin wearing shirts saying "Fuck the Police" doesn't make it inaccurate or false. If any of this is inaccurate, then how can you make the assumption Martin is also at fault in this?

One quick last note: The Miami Heat and everyone else blindly supporting Martin due to the fact that they share the same skin color are stupidly ignorant.

Or you know, have their own opinion on the matter. I would take LeBron's word on this case than yours, any day of the week.

 

[Shotaro]

No it was not self-defense. In all honesty if anyone had a self-defense case it was the young man who was killed. Simply by the virtue of the man disregarding the Dispatch Call and/or immediately seeing someone he'd never met before and gone OMG - SUPER SUSPICIOUS!

If I were the officer, yes I would arrest him. After all, I would imagine in a case such as a "stand your ground" law. There would need to be considerable evidence that your life were in danger. I am far from an expert in US law, but I am certain that, if such a law were implemented in the UK, it would constitute a "defensable position" rather than an opportunity to go without trial. It should be the decision of either a Judge or ideally a jury of your peers to make the decision of Not Guilty by way of Self-Defense. It certainly should NOT be the call of a Police Officer or it compromises the very nature of Law Enforcement.

 

[PlayTheGame]

Other than witness reports, and the words from Zimmerman's own lips, you can pretty much sum up what had happened that night. You are going to call the public outcry of a shooting of a 17 year old, unarmed kid an overreaction? Feel free to tell that to the friends and family of Martin. Hell, how would you feel if you heard your friend was shot unarmed walking back with skittles and Ice Tea.

Zimmerman chased down Martin and caused a incident where Zimmerman shot him in cold blood. And how can you say that Martin was not the victim in this case? He is sitting in a morgue right now, while Zimmerman is sitting at home. That is completely stupid to say otherwise.

Martin was 6'3, 140 pounds. I am 5'10, 210 pounds. And Zimmerman is 200 something pounds. Zimmerman easily outsized Martin, he could have easily defended himself without the use of a gun. You are going to tell me Zimmerman is unable to defend himself from a skinny tall black kid without a gun?

Also, if Martin was your son, and you lost him one night in a shooting just like this case. Would you want the press to be flooding the news with pictures of him with tattoo's, a grill, and waving middle fingers in the air? Obviously not.

No one is trying to cover this up, it just simply doesn't matter in the case. It was late at night. Martin didn't need to be at school. It wouldn't have mattered if Martin was a Boy Scout and at the top of his class in his High School. Zimmerman thought he was a crook, and acted on it. If a bag of skittles and Ice Tea didn't defuse Zimmerman's thirst for justice, then what makes you think Martin holding an honor roll and a college application make any difference?



That is exactly what you are saying. Don't try and say otherwise.

He is wrong to the extent of shooting an unarmed black kid he chased down in a gated community.

[YOUTUBE]6-_Qn9ZEj9Q[/YOUTUBE]

Take a look at this video. Do you see any bruises or blood that would indicate Zimmerman was helpless to Martin's attack? Surely if Zimmerman was helpless to Martin's attack, he would have more notable cuts and bruises upon Zimmerman's face?

How is Martin at fault here? Martin didn't do a damn thing to incite a fight with Zimmerman. He obviously didn't want anything to do with him because he was trying to escape him. If anything, Martin was trying to defend himself from his stalker.

Because the media doesn't put every single photo of Martin wearing shirts saying "Fuck the Police" doesn't make it inaccurate or false. If any of this is inaccurate, then how can you make the assumption Martin is also at fault in this?

Or you know, have their own opinion on the matter. I would take LeBron's word on this case than yours, any day of the week.

You sound horribly ignorant and uninformed. I would be glad to tell Martin's parents of my opinions, because I haven't taken media assumptions such as yourself as fact. You're being blind, and if you happen to be black, then your letting that cloud your vision. If you are not black, you're being an idiot. Just because he was carrying those items doesn't mean he's not dangerous, he's 6'3''. He could certainly take Zimmerman down if he surprised him, as the report goes. Martin was a full-sized man, granted a couple of months underage. But still an above-average, fullgrown man. Zimmerman was short and fat.

It's not stupid to place some of the blame on Martin, if the report of him attacking is true. It's stupid to say otherwise. There were visible bruises on the back of Zimmerman's head signifying he was knocked down and had his head hit against cement. I'd shoot the 6'3'' asshole on top of me, too, if I thought it was the only way out. You'd just let him pummel you? Well, good for you, enjoy possible brain damage. It's unbelievable how emotion is clouding your judgment, but you've already made your decision on the case before all the facts have even come out. Jumping to opinions like you have would never give your argument any sort of credibility. I'm saying that Martin may not be blameless in this, and I'm waiting for more information, but as more and more comes out, it seems that he has more of a role in this than previously thought. I agree Zimmerman was wrong. Even if he was just defending himself with the gun, it could be argued that he shouldn't have even approached Martin. I'm just saying that Martin may not be blameless, either. If he did indeed attack Zimmerman, then you can no longer say he had nothing to do with it.

And go ahead and believe LeBron, cuz, ya know, he's a highly intelligent guy. Actually, just more blind faith by you.

 

[GI Cake]

You sound horribly ignorant and uninformed. I would be glad to tell Martin's parents of my opinions, because I haven't taken media assumptions such as yourself as fact. You're being blind, and if you happen to be black, then your letting that cloud your vision.

Good to see you are horribly prejudice and stupid.

If you are not black, you're being an idiot. Just because he was carrying those items doesn't mean he's not dangerous, he's 6'3''.

He wasn't dangerous because he had no intent on breaking the law that night. He wasn't planning on being a threat to Zimmerman or anyone else in the neighborhood.

He could certainly take Zimmerman down if he surprised him, as the report goes. Martin was a full-sized man, granted a couple of months underage. But still an above-average, fullgrown man. Zimmerman was short and fat.

It was also reported that Zimmerman confronted him and chased him through the neighborhood in his car. Wouldn't you naturally want to flee somebody who has been chasing you around at night?

It's not stupid to place some of the blame on Martin, if the report of him attacking is true. It's stupid to say otherwise. There were visible bruises on the back of Zimmerman's head signifying he was knocked down and had his head hit against cement. I'd shoot the 6'3'' asshole on top of me, too, if I thought it was the only way out.

Or you could have this situation could not have even happened if Zimmerman decided to take the law into his own hands.

You'd just let him pummel you? Well, good for you, enjoy possible brain damage.

Do you even know what had happened? If anything, Zimmerman could have confronted Martin with his weapon in hand. Martin could have been in a state of mind to defend himself from the adult chasing him around in the middle of the night with a weapon in hand.

And if Zimmerman didn't confront Martin with a weapon in hand, you are going to tell me Zimmerman staved off getting his head beat against the ground to grab his gun and shoot him? I have been in plenty of fights in my life where I was in Zimmerman's position, and my first instinct was to push off the attackers hands and gain leverage. Not reach down and away for a weapon.

It's unbelievable how emotion is clouding your judgment, but you've already made your decision on the case before all the facts have even come out.

You are saying this like you were either Zimmerman or you were actually there. Neither of us knows what happened other than the facts that Zimmerman chased down Martin at night and caused a fight that lead to the shooting of Martin.

Jumping to opinions like you have would never give your argument any sort of credibility.

Right, like you are a well of credibility. Your entire opinion is based on the fact That Martin isn't a saint. Therefor Zimmerman had all rights to chase him down to stir a shooting.

I'm saying that Martin may not be blameless in this, and I'm waiting for more information, but as more and more comes out, it seems that he has more of a role in this than previously thought.

His role was that he was walking back from 7/11 with a bag of skittles and Ice Tea. Did Martin plan on being part of a shooting? Zimmerman was out at night with a weapon wanting to protect the law. Which isn't his job. How can you say Martin's background and his history makes him more guilty than if it was a white honor roll student?

I agree Zimmerman was wrong. Even if he was just defending himself with the gun, it could be argued that he shouldn't have even approached Martin.

That is exactly the point. What business is self-defense if Zimmerman obviously was the one who confronted and chased down Martin?

I'm just saying that Martin may not be blameless, either. If he did indeed attack Zimmerman, then you can no longer say he had nothing to do with it.

He had nothing to do with it. Did Martin at any point chase down Zimmerman? Did Martin make any reason that he was a risk to Zimmerman's life other than Zimmerman being a complete loon? Did Martin defend himself from Zimmerman in the first place? All these questions have yet to be answered because your entire point is based on the idea that because Martin was black, and acted like a gangster, obviously means he was out being a menace to society.

And go ahead and believe LeBron, cuz, ya know, he's a highly intelligent guy. Actually, just more blind faith by you.

I would take LeBron's word over the guy who has made over 50 calls to the Police over suspicious behavior. The guy who walks around with a gun and provokes fights because he wants to make sure it is safe. Over the guy who thinks "Neighborhood Watch" means "Part Time Cop." Yeah, I would.

 

[PlayTheGame]

To call me prejudiced is the easy way out. No, I'm just a realist.

You could be completely right about Martin. Maybe Zimmerman initiated all of it, including the squabble. But, there's the decent chance that that's not the case, and no one knows that or not. That's why I was saying you can't just jump to a conclusion and cling to it. People are incorrectly trying to make Martin out to be a saint, and I'm not saying he was a hoodlum. Somewhere in between is the correct answer, and since that is the correct answer, then no one really knows what he was capable of or what he did to Zimmerman, if anything. My main, unprejudiced, unbiased point in all of my posts in this thread is that we should not exonerate Martin yet. He may be to blame to an extent, but to what extent is unknown. Or, he could be innocent. But the amount of black people that have blindly come to his aid without the full truth coming out is embarassing. No one can know that yet. Zimmerman is undoubtedly responsible and in the wrong for sure, but we don't know to what extent yet either.

Here's my argument:
1. Zimmerman's wrong no matter what way you slice it. To what extent, we don't know yet.
2. Martin could be totally innocent, or he could have had a small to large role in the scuffle. To what extent if at all, we don't know yet. But to prematurely exonerate him is not "justice", something many are blindly calling for, yet they don't seem to comprehend the meaning of the word.
3. The amount of blind defense going on WITHOUT concrete evidence either way is dumbfounding and just wrong. This case, for whatever reason, seems to be going very slow in terms of the evidence department, yet speculation and assumption is running wild. I can't remember any recent incident with so much more speculation than fact. It makes anyone of importance jumping to either side, whether it be for Martin or for Zimmerman, look rash and careless.

No extreme thoughts either way should be pushed at this point, because there simply is not enough to firmly base it on. What I'm saying is, let's not put the cart before the horse.

 

[Tiger Chaos Theory]

To call me prejudiced is the easy way out. No, I'm just a realist.

I think you mean you're being a cynic of media coverage. To say you're a realist and go on about how you don't actually know the reality of the situation or accepting of details given is not correct.

You could be completely right about Martin. Maybe Zimmerman initiated all of it, including the squabble.

Well, we have a 9-1-1 call that shows Zimmerman took issue with Trayvon's "suspicious" behavior and made a point to mention he had intent or was in the mist of following this suspicious individual. Is this an acceptable fact?

We have Martin's friend who he was confirmed to be speaking to at the same general time as the incident occurred having come forward with testimony that Trayvon said he in fact was being followed. Is this an acceptable fact?

Anything after that would not have occurred if Zimmerman had not made it a point to follow Trayvon, therefore he initiated the entire confrontation.

Doesn't really matter if Trayvon turned around and started questioning Zimmerman and that led to what happened. This can all be placed squarely on Zimmerman's shoulders and this idea that if you push someone and they push back you are somehow entitled to shoot them.

People are incorrectly trying to make Martin out to be a saint, and I'm not saying he was a hoodlum. Somewhere in between is the correct answer, and since that is the correct answer, then no one really knows what he was capable of or what he did to Zimmerman, if anything.

This is the biggest issue I have with your post. Where in the fuck do you get off deciding on who is saintly enough to not be shot? It shouldn't fucking matter at all if he was a saint or not, no one is deserving of simply being shot out in the street when they aren't the aggressor without due process of the law, including Zimmerman.

Your point is entirely reliant on the principle that Trayvon has blame in this scenario either by virtue of instigating the confrontation or attacking Zimmerman during the proceeding argument when given everything we've heard so far would say the Trayvon was being followed and not pursing Zimmerman in anyway.

My main, unprejudiced, unbiased point in all of my posts in this thread is that we should not exonerate Martin yet.

Seeing as you're quite cynical and protest of the media coverage I'd say you're quite biased and prejudiced to anything you hear.

1. Zimmerman's wrong no matter what way you slice it. To what extent, we don't know yet.

No, we do know, you just aren't accepting. Zimmerman followed Trayvon, anything after that is voided by Zimmerman initiating.

If someone were following you and you turned around to kill him, that entirely acceptable because of Florida law. It's a silly law, and no matter what h33lturn or whatever has to say about it, it leads to unnecessary deaths.

2. Martin could be totally innocent, or he could have had a small to large role in the scuffle. To what extent if at all, we don't know yet.

Already went over this.

3. The amount of blind defense going on WITHOUT concrete evidence either way is dumbfounding and just wrong. This case, for whatever reason, seems to be going very slow in terms of the evidence department, yet speculation and assumption is running wild. I can't remember any recent incident with so much more speculation than fact. It makes anyone of importance jumping to either side, whether it be for Martin or for Zimmerman, look rash and careless.

My question to you is what do you consider concrete?

No extreme thoughts either way should be pushed at this point, because there simply is not enough to firmly base it on. What I'm saying is, let's not put the cart before the horse.

Given everything that's happened, surely it's understandable why the reaction was this fierce. Some see it as yet another in a long list of racially motivated episodes in the country. Some see it as an indication of the Liberal agenda powering over reason. I thinks it's obvious were I sit but I can see why the other side is just as upset.

 

[PlayTheGame]

No, again, I'm a realist. Not prejudiced. I'm not prejudging anyone, that's what you are doing. Both are innocent until proven guilty, meaning Zimmerman's involvement can only be speculated on, just as Martin's involvement can only be speculated on. As for your going on about eyewitnesses, you seemed to failed to mention or was uninformed about the 1-2 women that saw Martin squarely on top of Zimmerman, with Zimmerman screaming for help. As for the shooting? IF and only if Zimmerman was getting his head bashed in by Martin, then yes, I'd shoot that person too. Don't tell me where I get off shooting someone. If I were to feel threatened, then I'd shoot to protect myself. If you woudln't, then you'd be dead or seriously injured. Your stupid choice.

"This is the biggest issue I have with your post. Where in the fuck do you get off deciding on who is saintly enough to not be shot? It shouldn't fucking matter at all if he was a saint or not, no one is deserving of simply being shot out in the street when they aren't the aggressor without due process of the law, including Zimmerman."

You obviously didn't comprehend my post. Read it again. I was not deciding that he deserved to be "shot". I said who knows what he was capable of, as in "he very well could have instigated the fight". I never blatantly said he deserved to be shot. However, if he were to attack me, I would defend myself, even if he was a saint.

I don't really care if you want to resort to labeling and taking issue with my stance. I'm just explaining myself to make my points clear. This is obviously a touchy situation. One that people are jumping the gun on. The media started a frenzy with blowing this up without much fact. You said what do I consider concrete? Well, eye-witnesses and video recordings that show Zimmerman bloodied and underneath Martin are pretty solid. Unclear and grainy recordings of screaming, as you are pushing, are anything but factual.

I don't care if this is an unpopular stance. I'd rather be cautious and correct in my stance and wait for the full collection of facts from the events before blindly defending one side or the other out of crippling emotion.

 

[Peoples_Champ]

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure why this is getting so much media attention. People kill people everyday, for prejudiced / crazy reasons all the time. Sure, the fact that Zimmerman has protection from the law is notable, but seriously, there are thousands of unresolved murders.

This is the epitome of sensationalist reporting IMO, nothing more than newspapers to sell subscriptions and TV news agencies to change higher advertising rates.

 

[Jericho-79]

I've encountered this news story on every internet forum that I'm a member of.

Personally, I think the kid was the one threatened with that dude trailing him in his vehicle.

Seriously, what kind of idiot would follow a suspicious person at night. That doesn't make sense.

 

[PlayTheGame]

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure why this is getting so much media attention. People kill people everyday, for prejudiced / crazy reasons all the time. Sure, the fact that Zimmerman has protection from the law is notable, but seriously, there are thousands of unresolved murders.

This is the epitome of sensationalist reporting IMO, nothing more than newspapers to sell subscriptions and TV news agencies to change higher advertising rates.

That's a great point and I completely agree. When you combine that with the fact that evidence and facts are still being unearthed, then it is quite puzzling as to why it's getting so much attention, at least compared to the tons of other confirmed hate crimes that take place all the time, as you pointed out. I also fully agree with your second point. It's very sensational reporting, all the way down to the fact that every picture that's been published seems to have been taken when Martin appeared to be 12. Has he really not taken a more recent photo in 5 years? Of course he has, it just sells better to encapsulate him in that light. Very sensational just to draw attention. But it's really not about the reporting of it as much as the selling of it. Sometimes, that's journalism though.

 

[Peoples_Champ]

I've encountered this news story on every internet forum that I'm a member of.

Personally, I think the kid was the one threatened with that dude trailing him in his vehicle.

Seriously, what kind of idiot would follow a suspicious person at night. That doesn't make sense.

That's another problem I have with this story is how nonsensical it really is. Zimmerman said he shot the black kid while the black kid was on top of him. How come he didn't have any blood on him in the surveillance footage?

Canada has a bunch of bullshit, sensationalist stories going on so thankfully I dont have this pushed in my face as much as Americans do. However, I am really tired of sensationalist stories. I tend to get my news from Wikipedia's main page now, it's the only place I can really get good coverage of important stories.