Championship Region, Fifth Round: (1) Ric Flair vs. (2) The Rock

[Mr. Artistic guy]

Rock rode the coattails of the Monday Night Wars and Steve Austin rivalries with Hart, Michaels and VKM.

Yes, WWF was on the rise when The Rock came into prominence. But The Rock took that steam and took that success to new heights. His segment with Mick Foley was the highest rated in RAW history. It didn't involve Austin. Austin was the guy that got the WWF to the point it was at and he had handed The Rock that baton by the middle of '99 whereupon he was the biggest star there up until he left after losing to Lesnar.

We shouldn't be using the adversity of lack of adversity to judge the ability of the talent in any case. You're making Rock down because he had good talent to work with, that's not a bad point and just proves how talented he was to shine on that roster. The corporate structure fro Flair's successful period was totally different and so drawing in actual figures isn't comparible, but I don't think anyone could make the case for Flair outdrawing The Rock when both at the height of their influence. Let's just call drawing a non-issue in this.

He was put over by said Austin and 'carried' the company for less than a year (apparently with no assistance from Foley, Hunter, Angle etc from the way some people are getting on here).

Of course he was assisted, as was Flair. Talent can't draw fighting themselves. Anybody who is successful is so using the talent around them to put them there. If you want to say that Flair had inferior guys to work with, then you have to say The Rock technically outdrew him, which is why I said drawing isn't really comparable, too many variables involved.

Then he appeared in a movie, decided he was too big for wrestling,

Or decided he wanted to be an actor. Maybe he had always wanted to be an actor. If he decided he was too big for wrestling, why did he return and give his everything all over again? And return at WM 20, and at the behest of Eugene, and on Smackdown in 2008, and at the guest host of mania 27 and wrestle, conflicting with his schedule and injuring himself, actually wrestling when he didn't have to.

tried to distance himself from the sport he (and his family) owed his fame too,

Was forced to distance himself from wrestling because he wanted to be a successful actor, because of the negative stigma attached to pro wrestling and because of other factors (Benoit murders). As soon as he got to the point where he was a big enough actor to overlook those things, he was back giving back to the fans who got him to that position. He was bigger than the WWE when the returned, he was making hella money, the only explanation as to why he did it really is appreciation and respect for the understanding that he couldn't have gotten there without the platform of wrestling.

came back when his films were slumping

I'm not sure where you're getting this information. Rock career had been on a steady rise since leaving the E. When he returned to the company, he certainly didn't need to money. Whilst being there he was doing some of his biggest films ever, and yet he stayed there well beyond the success of films like Fast Five, The Other Guys and Get Smart, all of which came out at least 6 months before he returned to the WWE.

I don't know why I'm arguing this anyway, it's got nothing to do with the result of this fantasy match, whether you unfoundedly think the Rock returned to the WWE just to profit from it.

and has pretty much moved on again when said return to WWe did give his career a massive boost.

What we have with The Rock is a guy who was addicted to wrestling and didn't know when to give it up even when it was good and obvious he was way past it, compared to a guy who knew exactly how to market himself and keep himself at the top of the pile for as long as he was there and never overstayed his welcome.

The Rock and Ric Flair are two of the most entertaining wrestlers of all time. You may say that because of Rock's prime, he had the opportunity to touch more people than Flair, but their careers overlapped quite significantly. Truth is, Flair was the best at doing it in his generation and Rock was the best
at doing it in his. There's no travesty in either guy going over, but I think most people just see The Rock as the bigger draw of the two and the most capable on squeezing out a win.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I've been trying to make the argument that drawing is not a fair point for some time due to the variables that have been bandied back and forward throughout this thread BUT people keep using that exact factor to put Rock over Ric.

As to where I get my movie facts. I'm a massive movie fan to begin with and the info is out there - here's my post from a couple years ago...

Southland Tales was Rock's attempt to move into more serious roles - it flopped and flopped big. It was the much anticipated follow up to Donnie Darko and it encountered problem after problem before finally being released to tepid reviews and even worse box office.

I believe I've already stated that he doesn't need the money.

The A-Team, Real Steel, the Three Stooges - just three examples of Hollywood using RAW to promote their products. Are you telling me that the press releases for GI Joe 2 won't be using footage of WM to highlight what a bad ass Mr Johnson is?

Who needs who is a mute argument, it is a mutual thing - WWe benefits from having a guy both revered by wrestling fans and a Hollywood star to boot. Rock benefits from re-establishing himself with the role that made him a Hollywood star and the PR that will entail.

You say that he doesn't need to do this but I ask you this, what was the last film to open solely on his name and be a box office smash?

GI Joe 2 (2013) - a sequel to a film he wasn't in AND it also features a certain Mr Bruce Willis.
Journey 2 (2012) - again, a sequel to a film he wasn't in: budget $79m; domestic gross $102.
F&F5 (2011) - another sequel, again his first appearance in series: budget $125m; domestic gross $205m.
Faster (2010) - Budget $24m; domestic gross $23m.
Tooth Fairy (2010) - Budget $48m; domestic $60m.
Planet 51 (2009) - Budget $70m; domestic $42m.
Race To Witch Mountain (2009) - Budget $65; domestic gross $67.
The Game Plan (2007) - Budget $22; domestic gross $90.
Gridiron Gang (2006) - Budget $30; domestic gross $38m.
Southland Tales (2006) - Budget $17m; $275 thousand domestic... hmmm, serious REALLY didn't work out!
Doom (2005) - Budget $60; domestic gross $28.
Walking Tall (2004) - Budget $58; domestic gross $45.
The Rundown (2003) - Budget $85; domestic gross $47.
The Scorpion King (2002) - Budget $60; domestic gross $91.

So the only film that has really sold in the US on his name value alone is the Game Plan. Asides from that, he is only regarded a safe per of hands when the original star(s) jump ship or if a action background supporting guy is needed (like The Other Guys or Get Smart).

Simple fact: Dwayne Johnson's movie career immediately prior to WM27 wasn't overly rosey. Strangely, his Hollywood career looks one hell of a lot stronger since the collaboration.

If you guys want to believe he came back for love of the industry, that's your prerogative. Don't feel you have any right to lambaste me for mine though, as far as I'm concerned circumstances, evidence and his luminaries have carried me to my opinion.

Dwayne's return to being the Rock was a massive boost to a poor run of box office.

 

[X]

Sorry, but helping the WWF coast for a year with a fantastic supporting cast and carrying a promotion for a decade with virtually no supporting cast will put Flair over every time. The fact that Vince McMahon (who virtually respects nothing that the NWA or WCW did) has honored him twice for what he did there gives the TRUE regard Naitch should be held in!

I'm sorry but the Rock's spot at the top of the WWF (and fuck talk about a supporting cast, he was the number one star while Austin was gone, no ifs and or buts about it) during some of their most profitable periods of time in terms of PPV buyrates, TV ratings, and live gate attendance is absolutely more impressive than Ric Flair being the top draw of a Southern promotion that, even at his height of popularity, was not even half as profitable or popular as The Rock circa 2000 in the WWF was.

And as bringing in film box office performance as if that means anything, how many successful films has Ric Flair been in again? Oh right, zero. Even if you want to call Rock's Hollywood career modest (which is ridiculous, the guy is a star), it's still more impressive than no career for Flair. But again, why are we bringing up Hollywood work into this?

If you want to argue Flair that's fine but drawing is not the department in which you're going to win favor for that argument.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Lmfao!!

Rock is arguably the greatest pro wrestler of all time.

Calm your t!ts and stop nerd r@ging like a psychopath on every Rock fan on this thread.

Why'd I think you were banned?

Anyways, whose nerd raging? Why are you using characters rather than letters? You do know what "arguably" means?


Again X, I'm not trying to arguable draw - I'm just saying that the variables in each wrestlers circumstances are extremely different and saying the Rock wins on draw alone is entirely subjective.

My reason for voting Flair is that he was THE MAN for over a decade, holding the belt the majority of that time. The Rock simply wasn't the man for the majority of his career and had he left wrestling back in 2004 for anything other than movies, this poll wouldn't even be close... actually, he probably wouldn't even have reached this stage.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Like many others, I struggled here to make a decision, however, I've decided to go with style and profile and vote for The Man, Ric Flair.

Yes, The Rock was a better draw (Arguably! I mean, I think the conditions for which the two drew were completely different. Also, for those of you thinking that the Rock was just that damn good enough to step in for Austin and that people like Triple H, Foley, Angle, the Undertaker, and Kane weren't a factor, you're really smoking something), however, that's all he has over Flair IMO.

Flair was better in the ring. Don't get me wrong, the Rock has had some classics, however, I'd take any Flair/Steamboat match, any Flair/Sting match, or any Flair/Funk match over anything the Rock has done in the ring.

Flair was better on the mic as well. Of course the Rock was/is no slouch on the mic, however, at the end of the day, all the Rock does on the mic is spew catchphrase after catchprase. Flair didn't have to have sing a longs to get his point across. When it came to self promotion and putting the other guy down; nobody, and I Am Phenom means NOBODY, was as good as Flair on the mic.

It's time for a change in this tournament. The IWC completely and utterly under rates Flair. Not only us in this tournament, but every time we talk about Flair he is highly underrated. In the late 70's throughout the 80's Flair was the man. He, being the absolute main draw of the NWA, was able to keep that compwny afloat against the power of Hulkamania. That's saying something folks. Also, not only was Flair the man, he helped to make a lot of Men! Sting, Steamboat, Windham, Garvin, and several others. Add Rhodes to the list as well. He is most renowned for his work with Flair. Hell, he also made whoever was in the 4 Horsemen instantly relevant by association.

I have to go with Flair here folks and everyone else should to. Whether you like it or you don't like it, learn to love it because it's the best going today; diamonds are forever and so is Ric Flair.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

I love how so many of you are digging for reasons to put Flair over Rock, most of you using reasons that would actually favor The Rock.

- The draw argument. If you truly believe Flair was a bigger draw then you are lying to yourself or have zero clue on finances.

- The Rock had a good supporting cast. And Flair didn't? Yeah beacause the rest of the Horsemen, Sting, Dusty Rhodes, Magnum TA and the fucking Road Warriors (the greatest tag draw of all time) did nothing for JCP.

- It wasn't Flairs fault that JCP went out of business. No it wasn't but even in WWF he wasn't a good draw, in WCW they didn't make a lick of money until Hogan showed up. Flair can't be blamed on bad business decisions but he was the captain of the losing team, and he didn't do much business wise when he was on the winning team either.

- Flair is a bigger name. At no time was Flairs name bigger than wrestling itself, The Rocks was in fact bigger than wrestling, which is why he's making a fantastic living outside of wrestling.

This isn't me knocking Flair, I'm a huge fan of his but he's not The Rock. If you wanna vote for him because you like him better fine, if you wanna vote for him because other fans and wrestlers told you too fine but just say it, don't dig up BS reasoning to justify your decision.

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

My reason for voting Flair is that he was THE MAN for over a decade, holding the belt the majority of that time. The Rock simply wasn't the man for the majority of his career and had he left wrestling back in 2004 for anything other than movies, this poll wouldn't even be close... actually, he probably wouldn't even have reached this stage.

It took The Rock two years from almost complete rookie to be a main eventer, and he never left that spot once he attained it. Proportionally Flair may have been on top longer, but that's why I brought up the relative career length of the two men. Not to mention some of the periods where Flair was on top weren't really rockin'. I seem to remember a certain feud with Hulk Hogan in late '99 WCW for example.

The Rock, however, never held down the fort in a lull period. Even his return brought about the most bought WM ever. Don't forget, Flair wasn't the man for more of his career than The Rock, except in his own phrase.

By-the-by, anyone who says Rock's mic work was just a series of catchphrases goes waaaaay down in my estimations. If it was that easy, everybody would do it. Timing, executions, confidence and intonation all coincide to explain why people so loved his mic work. And don't pretend that's all he could do. I don't want to have to dig up a whole collection of promos that were catchphrase-light and were as serious and brilliantly ad-libbed as any spoken otherwise. Yeah I'm talking about this:

Flair was better on the mic as well. Of course the Rock was/is no slouch on the mic, however, at the end of the day, all the Rock does on the mic is spew catchphrase after catchprase. Flair didn't have to have sing a longs to get his point across. When it came to self promotion and putting the other guy down; nobody, and I Am Phenom means NOBODY, was as good as Flair on the mic.

To be the man you've gotta beat the man.
WOOOOO!
Space Mountain.
Getting on is a lot easy than jumping off.
Jet-flyin, limosine-ridin', kiss-stealin', wheelin'-dealin' son of a gun.
60 minute man.
The dirtiest player in the game.
Stylin' and profilin'.
Fat boy.
Bleed, sweat and pay the price.
Whether you like it, or you don't like it, you better learn to love it 'cause it's the best thing going today.
Something about diamonds...

To name most of them.

 

[SSJPhenom]

To be the man you've gotta beat the man.
WOOOOO!
Space Mountain.
Getting on is a lot easy than jumping off.
Jet-flyin, limosine-ridin', kiss-stealin', wheelin'-dealin' son of a gun.
60 minute man.
The dirtiest player in the game.
Stylin' and profilin'.
Fat boy.
Bleed, sweat and pay the price.
Whether you like it, or you don't like it, you better learn to love it 'cause it's the best thing going today.
Something about diamonds...

To name most of them.

Of course Flair had catchphrases. Every successful wrestler does, however, he didn't have to constantly use them every time he talked. The only one he used all of the time was WOOOOOO.

Let me give you an example of an everyday Rock promo:

"Finally, the Rock has come back, blah blah blah, the Rock says, blah blah blah, and the Rock means, blah blah blah, the Rock is gonna layeth the smackdown on your candy ass, blah blah blah, jabroni, blah blah blah, know your role and shut your mouth, blah blah blah, one on one with the great one, blah blah blah, the people's champ, blah blah blah, it doesn't matter, blah blah blah, boots to asses, blah blah blah, the jabroni beating pie eating people's champ the Rock, blah blah blah, if you smell what the Rock is cooking".

That is literally every Rock promo in a nutshell.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Of course Flair had catchphrases. Every successful wrestler does, however, he didn't have to constantly use them every time he talked. The only one he used all of the time was WOOOOOO.

Let me give you an example of an everyday Rock promo:

"Finally, the Rock has come back, blah blah blah, the Rock says, blah blah blah, and the Rock means, blah blah blah, the Rock is gonna layeth the smackdown on your candy ass, blah blah blah, jabroni, blah blah blah, know your role and shut your mouth, blah blah blah, one on one with the great one, blah blah blah, the people's champ, blah blah blah, it doesn't matter, blah blah blah, boots to asses, blah blah blah, the jabroni beating pie eating people's champ the Rock, blah blah blah, if you smell what the Rock is cooking".

That is literally every Rock promo in a nutshell.

The thing about catchphrases is that they are used to get either an aspect of, or an entire character over. Once the crowd latch onto it and have fun joining in, why would it make sense to stop?

Both Flair and Rock had catchphrases that the audience loved to join in with but only one of those guys had a hit song based off of one of their catchphrases while they were at their peak in the wrestling biz. It isn't a key point but as this match is a foregone conclusion, it's as good a time as any to whip it out.

 

[Big Sexy]

Maybe the worst argument ever made on this forum (and there have been many who have made it) is that The Rock is overrated on the mic because he uses too many catch phrases. Of course The Rock uses a lot of catch phrases because he is a master at creating them and getting the crowd to love them. No one has more catchphrases because no one has The Rock's mic talent to be able to get as many to get over and work. Just look at his most recent comeback when he got "Boots to Asses" over in about 5 seconds. Trust me, every wrestler would use/have the same amount of catchphrases if they had the ability to get them over. At the end of the day the main subject of all wrestlers promos are just enhanced by catchphrases and common sayings and all of the best mic workers have very similar promos on the surface because of that reason. The only thing that changes is who the promo is directed at and what the main subject is.

Ric Flair- "I have nice clothes, women love me, to be the man you gotta beat the man."

John Cena- "The Champ is here, you can't see me, I will overcome so and so obstacle."

CM Punk- "I'm the best in the world, I'm about to drop a pipe bomb, no one is as good as me."

Hulk Hogan- "Say your prayers eat your vitamins, what you gonna do when I run wild on you."

Steve Austin- "I'm going to kick your ass, drink beer, then more beer, then more beer, WHAT?, that's the bottom line."

The Rock- "Finally the Rock has come back...., I'm going to whoop your candy ass, If ya smell what the Rock is cooking."

I think you all get the point.

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

I don't want to have to dig up a whole collection of promos that were catchphrase-light and were as serious and brilliantly ad-libbed as any spoken otherwise.

Of course Flair had catchphrases. Every successful wrestler does, however, he didn't have to constantly use them every time he talked. The only one he used all of the time was WOOOOOO.

Let me give you an example of an everyday Rock promo:

"Finally, the Rock has come back, blah blah blah, the Rock says, blah blah blah, and the Rock means, blah blah blah, the Rock is gonna layeth the smackdown on your candy ass, blah blah blah, jabroni, blah blah blah, know your role and shut your mouth, blah blah blah, one on one with the great one, blah blah blah, the people's champ, blah blah blah, it doesn't matter, blah blah blah, boots to asses, blah blah blah, the jabroni beating pie eating people's champ the Rock, blah blah blah, if you smell what the Rock is cooking".

That is literally every Rock promo in a nutshell.

Sigh.

[YOUTUBE]8MGty5p5d1A[/YOUTUBE]

Much in the same tone as much of Rock's stuff, but very catchphrase light.

[YOUTUBE]o6aN0AI9q9Y[/YOUTUBE]

From 14:00 to 17:30, one phrase, the content certainly didn't rely on it.

[YOUTUBE]fOSpU29FS_w[/YOUTUBE]

Your point, needs life support, slowly dying.

[YOUTUBE]pnZdnWFrJxA[/YOUTUBE]

People are too eager to forget how good Rock was pre-catchphrases.

[YOUTUBE]lNYDwBQ4XJ4[/YOUTUBE]

Anyway, all this spans from the idea that having catchphrases is a crutch, is somehow like 'cheating' to get a good reaction. It's however you can do it. Think of all the catchphrases that have crashed and burned. The Rock has those phrases because he knows how and when to deliver them to maximize the crowd reaction to whatever he's doing.

But don't pretend he doesn't have the substance and ability to deliver a great promo without or with minimal catchphrases. He's done it many many times. As has Flair. You can't pretend that Falir is above the Rock in mic work because he didn't get as good a reaction as he did. You'd only be fooling yourself.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I never said that the Rock is overrated on the mic. I just said that he relies heavily on his catchphrases and sing a longs. Flair had catchphrases, however, he didn't spout them out with every breath. His ability to self promote and make the other guy look like trash is second to none.

 

[Tastycles]

His ability to self promote and make the other guy look like trash is second to none.

That's the exact opposite of the point of a promo.

I'm not saying that Flair or The Rock did do this, but if you think that the point of a promo is to make the opponent look bad, you're on to a loser.

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

I never said that the Rock is overrated on the mic. I just said that he relies heavily on his catchphrases and sing a longs. Flair had catchphrases, however, he didn't spout them out with every breath. His ability to self promote and make the other guy look like trash is second to none.

I don't know why you keep using this catchphrase argument like using more or less somehow diminishes his ability or adds to Flair's. That'd be like saying "Daniel Bryan's crap because he's got a moveset and every damn match he uses that corner dropkick. Every match! Where's the originality. He's just doing that because he doesn't know any other moves." But we know that isn't true. The fact that he uses catchphrases against whatever proportion he does to Flair's promos doesn't give you any indication of his ability when he doesn't use many. And to see how good he is when he's not catchphrase heavy, watch some of the above videos.

I mean, did you not watch a single video I posted? To get you up to speed young one, the point was to demonstrate how, when not relying on catchphrases, he was still as sharp a wit and robust and orator as any there was.

And Tasty has already chastised you rightly for the last line. You always want to bring a sense of how worthy your opponent as well as how worthy you are because that makes it all the more significant when either one wins. Admittedly The Rock did bury a guy from time to time. As for Flair being the greatest at putting himself over and diminishing his opponent. Well:

[YOUTUBE]XCo2mOF95UQ[/YOUTUBE]

Pretty much the best burying promo ever. Flair couldn't compete with that I'm afraid.

 

[SSJPhenom]

That's the exact opposite of the point of a promo.

I'm not saying that Flair or The Rock did do this, but if you think that the point of a promo is to make the opponent look bad, you're on to a loser.

You people on these here forums love to be presumptuous, however, the problem is you presume to damn much. I never once stated nor hinted to what the point of a promo was. How you got that out of what I said is fucking amazing. I merely pointed out what Flair was good at doing on the mic. I mean you telling me that what I posted wasn't the point of a promo tells me that, for whatever reason, you just don't like me and you're willing to come up with ridiculous shit to try and diminish my opinion as much as possible. It's really pathetic.

For your amusement, the point of a promo is to draw attention to A: The person giving the promo and B: The match or feud that that person is involved in. Please don't give me some bullshit that it's to put over the other guy because it isn't. That's what the match is for and it's the other guy's responsibility to get himself over with his own promos. So self promotion and talking shit about their opponents is all part of a good promo. As well as drawing attention/interest to the big match. Sure, one has to make their opponents seem worthy, however, that usually takes place in maybe one or two lines in a promo. Something like this will be said: "Now, Sting, I'll give you your due, you're one of the toughest people I've ever faced, but don't forget who you're facing. I'm Ric Flair." Then he'll start promoting himself again.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I don't know why you keep using this catchphrase argument like using more or less somehow diminishes his ability or adds to Flair's. That'd be like saying "Daniel Bryan's crap because he's got a moveset and every damn match he uses that corner dropkick. Every match! Where's the originality. He's just doing that because he doesn't know any other moves." But we know that isn't true. The fact that he uses catchphrases against whatever proportion he does to Flair's promos doesn't give you any indication of his ability when he doesn't use many. And to see how good he is when he's not catchphrase heavy, watch some of the above videos.

I mean, did you not watch a single video I posted? To get you up to speed young one, the point was to demonstrate how, when not relying on catchphrases, he was still as sharp a wit and robust and orator as any there was.

And Tasty has already chastised you rightly for the last line. You always want to bring a sense of how worthy your opponent as well as how worthy you are because that makes it all the more significant when either one wins. Admittedly The Rock did bury a guy from time to time. As for Flair being the greatest at putting himself over and diminishing his opponent. Well:

[YOUTUBE]XCo2mOF95UQ[/YOUTUBE]

Pretty much the best burying promo ever. Flair couldn't compete with that I'm afraid.

I'm bringing this up because it's what I believe. I believe that Flair was better, over all, on the mic then the Rock. That's my opinion. I much more prefer Flair's promos over the Rock's.

Of course I watched your videos and all that proved is that the Rock had some moments where he didn't have to catchphrase with every other breath. For every catchphrase light Rock promo you find, I can find 2 catchphrase heavy promos. Did I ever say that the Rock was horrible on the mic or that I ddidn't like his promos? No because that's not the case. I find the Rock's promos very entertaining. All I said is that he relies heavily on his catchphrases and sing a longs and you can't say that he doesn't. Hell, when he and CM Punk went head to head on the mic, Punk made the Rock look a lot less than stellar. Why? Because, as CM Punk said, all he could do was use his same lame ass schtick.

 

[Tastycles]

I mean you telling me that what I posted wasn't the point of a promo tells me that, for whatever reason, you just don't like me and you're willing to come up with ridiculous shit to try and diminish my opinion as much as possible. It's really pathetic.

What's pathetic is having such a low self esteem that you think everything is a personal attack. I don't even know who you are, your posts have never particularly drawn my attention either in a good or bad way. I said what I said because in an argument about mic skills you started talking about how good Flair was at burying his opponent, and I was saying that the people voting shouldn't consider this, because it's not the point of a promo, which is what we're really talking about with mic skills.

I suggest you drop the victim mentality, for your own sake. It must be horrible to think that everybody hates you.