Championship shocks

[Robbo89]

I was reading through the thread about how long title reigns should be and how often they should change and it got me thinking.......should there be more shock champions?

I remember back in the day when we were all shocked when Jeff Hardy beat HHH for the IC title, or when Miz won the WWE title (well it shocked me anyway) but other than that i cant really remember any BIG shock title holders.

I'm getting sick and tired of it always being the same people winning the title i.e Cena and Orton, and the same few people challenging i.e Del Rio, Miz (just lately) I was liking the angle that R-Truth wanted in on the number 1 contendership but that soon went and YET AGAIN we have Miz vs Cena = zzzzzzz!

My point is, the creative team really need to start pulling out a few shocks every now and again to keep the viewers intrigued with the show, imagine an inpromptu match, cena vs truth and truth were to win the title?

The storylines are getting a bit obvious in my opinion in terms of title winners, it needs a shake up and fast before the main faces of the company i.e Cena and Orton become stale and boring!

Why does cena always have to be challenging or holding the title?
Ric Flair won 16 world titles in his 39 year career,
HHH has won 13 in his 16 years,
even Hulk hogan only has 12 in his 34 years career!
HBK, one of the greats of the ring only had 4 world titles in his entire career!
The undertaker, his 21 year career with WWE, 8 world titles!

With this in mind why should cena have 10 world titles already after only 9 years?!?! I understand that he is the face of the company! but why is it always him that holds the title or challenging? give somebody else a chance to gain a push in the company!

 

[18dionlyone]

Let me answer your questions with more questions: Why are there always threads about how boring the WWE title matches are? Why did this thread start out as a "championship shock" thread but turn into another " cenas boring..ortons boring blah blah blah" thread?

and you also said flair won 16 titles in 39 years etc...you left out a few wrestlers...namely the the "untouchable one" The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin.. you said cenas won 10 titles in 9 years..correct...but rock won 9 world titles from November 1998 to vengance 2002 and swapped the title like three times back to back ppvs in 2000. soooooo 9 world title reigns in 5 years..so why did the rock always hold the title or was in contention for it?? and Austin..first won it in 1998 last time he held the title was in 2001..and didnt hold it at all in 2000 due to injury but he was a..what? 7 time champ..so 7 titles in 4 years..Why did Austin always hold the title??

See what I did..i took complaints of most IWC smarks and turned it on back towards them...and i know there argument..."oh oh why are you comparing the rock to cena?? the rock was this and austin was that..and blah blah blah"

now onto the shock titles...who do you want to win the title?? besides cena and orton..who can you see carry the wwe on their back the way Cena and orton did and still doing?? you wonder why Christian r truth etc etc... arent champs or in the spots of them?? would you really put the title on a guy who can barely leave the USA because of previous felonies?? or how about christian..the guy who at the drop of the dime left the WWE for a rival company?? why put it on the guy who left your company...point is..the reason cena and orton are constant champs are..they are young..loyal...they are the total package..its not about wrestling its about who can carry a company..and for the time being..its those two

 

[RKOFUC*KENFAN]

agree with the guy above me ur so ryt cena and orton arent boring champions they entertain me. u said this was Championship shocks
but all u did was moan about orton and cena about how boring they are.

 

[1truefan]

now onto the shock titles...who do you want to win the title?? besides cena and orton..who can you see carry the wwe on their back the way Cena and orton did and still doing?? you wonder why Christian r truth etc etc... arent champs or in the spots of them?? would you really put the title on a guy who can barely leave the USA because of previous felonies?? or how about christian..the guy who at the drop of the dime left the WWE for a rival company?? why put it on the guy who left your company...point is..the reason cena and orton are constant champs are..they are young..loyal...they are the total package..its not about wrestling its about who can carry a company..and for the time being..its those two

Very well said... I was simply going to say its because of the lack of faith they have in their talent. This was heavily demonstrated when this years draft was pushed up in an effort to shift talent around to ultimately get Orton on Smackdown to replace Edge. The fact of the matter is that WWE does have alot of youth but very few of them have the complete package. So WWE is hesitant on booking them as "faces" of the company. When I look for a superstar (not that it matters) but they have to contain the following
A. Athletic ability
B. Mic Skills
C. Star presence and/or Marketablilty

Look at Morrison (and I may take some flack but oh well) very talented in the ring but limited on the mic. He is very Marketable as well but I just get the feeling that his mic skill are holding him back. Add that with the rumored heat from the trish incident and BAM you have midcarder indefinitely.

I would not trust R-truth with the title to save my life. Everyone is so behind his heel run lately but quite frankily Ive also been bored with him and I dont see that changing soon.


Anyways WWE has little faith in the youth on there roster thats why none of them have lasted long in the main event scene when given the chance and as long as the WWE has Cena and Randy to push the product they will continue to do so. At least until the next cena or Orton shows up for the next generation to take over.

Until then the same people will have titles or be in contention when you get down to the basic its about money whos gonna carry the product and brint in more revenue. The days of shock champs are few and far between if not dead altogether.

 

[sTyLnK]

Meh guys like Cena make a killing for the WWE with merchandise sales so y not give him the championship.

I for one think it sucks because I think so many wrestlers deserve a chance at winning, but because they are seen as mid carders or aren't as strong in certain areas they don't deserve it. I get that they can't sell out an area, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve a chance. They are hard workers and they deserve the shot of at least a push even if they don't win.

I really admire what wrestlers do for a living and it's one hell of a tough job that's hard on the body. I respect it a lot so I like seeing wrestlers get a bigger opportunity and it sucks that it hardly ever happens.

 

[Rock Bottom]

Orton and Cena just so happen to be part of the problem in terms of titles going to the predictable couple of top guys. I remember when Kurt Angle was the final entry in that Smackdown Battle Royal for the World Title. It was a huge shock and to see him walk out champion when we all expected Mark Hendry to win it was great.

I do agree about lack of talent on the rosters but if they don't elevate guys then nothing with change as far as that is concerned.

As far as The Rock and Austin were concerned these guys were some unbelieveably charasmatic they made title runs interesting, something which is absent from current champions.

 

[The Suplexer Perfecter]

Well The Rock won 9 world titles in 4 years and Edge won 11 in 5. Don't see anyone complaining there.

This happens all the time. Top guy gets the top title, then possibly a new guy or someone else wins it, then it goes back to the top guy. Happened with Flair, Hogan, Bret Hart, Austin, Rock, Triple H, etc.

The issues are things like 1 month pointless title reigns, 3 week reigns, or those annoying 15 minute reigns that jack up the number of reigns. Imagine if Flair's reigns were only like 3-6 months at a time? He'd be recognized as a 25 time champion probably.

 

[It'sMyYard]

Firstly, lets be honest, you aren't going to put someone who isn't going to sell out an arena in a main event. Why would you bother damaging the revenue when you could just do what you know works?
Secondly, after all these years do you not think there are going to be repeats of the past? You can't endlessly make up new angles. Sooner or later they run out. If they're exciting and entertaining and if you're happy with the way things are running, your creative team are reliable etc. ... Where's the harm?

They wont be champions forever. But enjoy it while they are. When they're gone, you'll want them back. You'll see.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

When I read the title, I thought of Jericho beating HHH in 2000 on Raw and then HHH and Stephanie forcing Hebner to overturn the decision. That was a big shock and a great moment until HHH got his belt back, but at the same time it was a bit of a building block for Jericho. I can see something like that happening again, but to keep shocks fresh they can't overdo them and play off the surprise element.

It wasn't for a title but the closest WWE got to this recently was with Santino at the Rumble as there was that moment of doubt where the crowd went nuts realising Santino was still in the match, and I don't believe I'm the only one who thought, "Surely not... or are they...?" We know he lost, but that kind of situation got a huge reaction from the crowd because it was ridiculous yet exciting.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Well The Rock won 9 world titles in 4 years and Edge won 11 in 5. Don't see anyone complaining there.

This happens all the time. Top guy gets the top title, then possibly a new guy or someone else wins it, then it goes back to the top guy. Happened with Flair, Hogan, Bret Hart, Austin, Rock, Triple H, etc.

The issues are things like 1 month pointless title reigns, 3 week reigns, or those annoying 15 minute reigns that jack up the number of reigns. Imagine if Flair's reigns were only like 3-6 months at a time? He'd be recognized as a 25 time champion probably.

Apologies if I've misunderstood, but weren't just about all of Rock's reigns only for a month or so? I think because of the fact that Rock was so over with the fans in the first place, he didn't need to hold onto the belt for that long because he was already "the People's Champion."

 

[RJB1976]

In response to an earlier post, Christian did not leave the company at the "drop of a dime" and even agreed to work the Cyber Tuesday PPV if needed, even tough he was no longer under contract to the WWE. Get your facts straight first.

Second, titles in the WWE mean utterly nothing. Title changes mean nothing because you know in a few months, there will be another title change, unless its a secondary title, which is never really defended until it is time for a title change.
As for keeping the title around Cena. Yes he is the face of the company, but he is also the muscle bound type of guy that Vince fawns over.

 

[Constipated Badger Bottom]

What I think needs to be done is not focus on the amount of reigns a certain person hard but focus more on how long they held a title because when you hear something like Edge has won 11 world titles which is an acheivement don't get me wrong but it also means that Edge has LOST the world title 11 times

If you focus on how many days a person has held a title we get a better idea of there legacy for example

Bruno Sammartino only 2 reigns but held the World Title for 4040 days meanwhile Edge has won 11 World Championships but only for a combined 548 days and Ric Flair has 16 world titles had held the titles for combined 4128 days (I'm not claiming these details are correct just using this as an example)

 

[Sleep Time]

Shawn Michaels is up there and hes not even half the amount of Ric Flair.

Kurt Angle is only a ten time world champion and he has been wrestling since 1999.

Jeff Hardy has been wrestling in the major leagues for over 10 years and is left as only a 5 time world champion including TNA and WWE.

Matt Hardy just as long as Jeff has won the world title 0 times.

Christian has been here since the Prince of Darkness reign and has only won 2 world titles.

C.M. Punk has been here since 2006, 5 years is a top dog player, yet only wins 3 world titles, He gets a pin over cena but hasn't even won a fourth yet, *sigh*

 

[akrassikauda]

Really another Cena/Orton is stale thread. Championship shocker you want a shocker. For those like me who didn't hear the spoiler on Nitro. Mankind beats the Rock for the WWF title now that was a shock ( once again for those who didn't get the spoiler from WCW ). Or Eddie beats Lesnar, grant it today you may not see these shocker titles with all the leaks that come out and it'll only happen on RAW since it's the only live tv show

 

[HiddenInPlainView]

I am not a Cena or Orton fan, but i understand the reason why the WWE feels the need to keep these two as the champions on their respective brands. $$$$$! Until one of the young guys step up and prove themselves as marketable it will stay that way. With the exception of The Miz, all of the young guys have dropped the ball on any opportunity they have. And only a few are the kind of guys that WWE will really get behind. Guys like Sheamus and Swagger are good for a short heel title run, but aren't face of the company guys. Morrison just doesn't have the mic skills to hang with the big boys. DiBiase, Barrett, and McIntyre were rumored for huge pushes but something is holding WWE back from pushing these guys. So until someone steps up Cena and Orton will remain the top dogs.

As far as shocking, the last thing that shocked me was when Edge cashed in his first money in the bank contract.

 

[NattieLover]

The problem isn't the number of titles reigns but the lack of build up, Orton winning the title from christian being a great example, no promos no weeks of tension between them just a Smackdown main event.

If you look back to the attitude era you had Austin dropping the title at Breakdown in September and then the long build up to winning it back at Mania in March. Or the Rock dropping it at Mania 99 and not winning it back until Backlash 2000.

There are feuds where swapping the title for a few months before the big match conclusion, Cena and Orton or Rock HHH being 2 great examples of that, but in general when a big star like Cena or Orton drops the title the build up over a period of months, before they finally win it back 6 months - a year down the line, doesn't exist anymore and it seems to not only cause the main stars to accrue many title reigns but also destroys the anticipation of the win

 

[CYoung2003]

I'll give you my #1 title shock. January 1999, when Mankind beat the Rock for the WWF title. So much energy behind that match. Rock/Mandkind rivalry was heating up, Cooperation/DX feud was at almost an apex, and you had Stone Cold Steve Austin lurking in the shadows. Nobody saw Mankind beating the Rock that night on RAW (with help from Austin). The crowd was absolutely nuts that night as well. Classic.

 

[hbkmark]

I understand your point about things getting stale but it is not fair to use how few title runs that some of the legends had as proof that they kept things fresh back in the day. You mentioned Flair having only sixteen runs in 39 years and Hogan only having 12 in 34 years and so on. Part of that is because they held on to the belts for sometimes years at a time and had feuds that lasted entire calendar years.
Keeping interesting challengers is the key to keeping a champion interesting. Flair had years of interesting guys coming at him and he kept it interesting. Hogan just kept wrestling the same match over and over and Vince kept bringing bigger and bigger guys at him and that was as creative as they needed to be.

It's up to Cena and Orton to keep tweeking their characters but it's up to the creative types to take what seem to be talented guys and make them good foils for the champs. No one will be shocked by a title change as long as three or four months is considered an actual reign as champ.

 

[HeenanGorilla]

I felt Sgt. Slaughter going over Ultimate Warrior at Royal Rumble 91 was a shock. Now we know that was to set up Hogan/Slaughter at WMVII; but, at the time, that was a shock.

Also, I don't think many people expected Macho Man to leave WMIV as champ.

Andre beating Hulk on SNME was also a shock..I still can feel my stomach hurting when realizing Dibiase paid the fake ref to have plastic surgery and screw Hogan. haha!

I am not talking about people who knew about a Hogan movie hiatus, or a long-term plan for attendance at WMVII, or behind the scenes politics that would lead you to not being "shocked" like in today's wrestling world. I am talking about as a kid and a fan back then.

On a side note, I will tell you one thing that did NOT shock me. That was Michaels turning on Jannetty on The Barber Shop. I am 10 years old at that time and that turn was weeks in the making. I remember saying to my friend during one of the Rockers' last matches as they came to the ring. "Look at Shawn, he is looking at the crowd like 'I won't be hearing cheers for a long time'." I was a kayfabe/naive, 10-year-old kid and was looking into face reactions to back up that theory. haha! I see "IWC smarks" to this day saying how much that shocked them. I don't remember a single hint, but that was no shock.

The title changes above though, at that time, were shocks.

 

[Alex_U]

"One night after Judgment Day RVD defeated Undertaker in a surprising upset on Monday Night Raw for the Undisputed Title. Unfortunately, Ric Flair who was running raw at the time deemed that the Undertaker's foot was on the ropes which the ref didn't see when he counted three. Flair then went on to restart the match in which the Undertaker pinned RVD to recapture the WWE undisputed title and RVD's win was washed from all records." Sighted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Va...ion_.2F_Entertainment_.282001.E2.80.932007.29

This for me was a huge moment. Im a HUGE RVD mark and when he got the 1...2...3... I can still remember jumping off the couch and doing a little victory dance. But then the aftermath and reversal was a slap back to reality.

 

[The Perfect Max]

Championship shocks are running out. I mean, we are all desperate for John Morrison to win the title and Alberto del Rio is on his way. When they win, I doubt we will be as shocked as WWE want us to be (the biggest shock is if Chavo win the title - uproar)

The Miz won the WWE Championship - Sort of shocked me
Jeff Hardy won the WWE Championship - I just don't care
Eddie Guerrero won the WWE Championship - Good moment, but, I think we knew he deserved a title before hand
The Great Khali won the WHC - 'Nough said
Randy Orton won the WHC - Shocked me to the CORRE (see what I did there)

So, the latest shock is The Miz is 2010. Jeff Hardy was 2008, so, 2 years and 1 shocker. Hmmm.

Come on WWE. Chavo for Champion!

 

[akrassikauda]

@ HeenanGorrila - I remember that to watching Superstars with my father I turned to him and said I think Shawn is going bad cuz he and Jannety was not getting along recently then 30 seconds later. CLICK. HBK was born, not for a title but a shocker to all in that arena even Beefcake looked shocked.

The SNME with Hogan, Andre and the two Hebners that was shocking <----- but it goes to my point back then you could have those shock title changes that you can't have now because anyone with a smart phone today can just email this site with results and it'll be under *Spoilers* in a heartbeat or this or other sites have their moles in creative. Example this and other sites hinted the Vince wanted a guest host for WM and it'll be a huge name. Only thing anyone with a brain had to do was remember the Super Bowl commercial for Fast 5 and it said This Spring to know it was The Rock. He wanted a big name to host and did anyone else know a bigger name to get buy rates up.

 

[The Idiot]

With this in mind why should cena have 10 world titles already after only 9 years?!?! I understand that he is the face of the company! but why is it always him that holds the title or challenging? give somebody else a chance to gain a push in the company!

In the past decade (or even longer)...the WWE booking and writing staff thinks that by having constant title changes keeps things fresh and new. It's not like the old days when wrestlers would hold the title for months and sometimes years at a time to build their main star. These writers have no idea on how to book a wrestling show...but it's McMahon's fault for letting them.

With the WWE title being passed around like a hot potato it creates little interest among fans because the title doesn't have meaning. The prestige is gone. So then when they advertise a world title match the fans couldn't care less.

The title today is used as a prop to help get someone over...whereas in the past it was given to the guy who would lead the company and would represent the WWE as the main star, the man to beat.

To answer the TS...the last thing they need is a championship shocker. There's already been way too many guys that have won the title that didn't deserve to. You may not like it...but the best thing they can do is keep the title on John Cena until mania. You can't change the past....I understand Cena winning the title 9 times already is WAY too many, but he's the champ now and they should leave it alone until April.

I would create a tournament for the US and IC title. A 16 man tourney for the unified US/IC title. The final match would also take place at Mania. They can start the tournament after the Royal Rumble.

The WHC needs to go too. They can unify that at the following years Wrestlemania with the WWE title.

 

[The Brain]

There have been plenty of shock title changes. It&#8217;s just that the shock only lasts for a week or so before the fans just becoming accepting of the change. Miz is a perfect example. He won the title only six months ago yet people still insist it&#8217;s always the same old names holding it. What about Swagger and Kane last year? Or Sheamus at the end of 2009? Those were pretty shocking title changes. Edge, Orton, and Punk&#8217;s first reigns were all pretty surprising. Jericho&#8217;s win at Unforgiven 2008 was too. Some fans hope for a fresh champion so much that they don&#8217;t even realize when they have one. It&#8217;s not good enough for them that Miz was a fresh champion because he was defending against Orton and Cena. You can&#8217;t turn midcarders into main eventers by having them feud with other midcarders. To be a main event guy you have to work with a main event guy. It&#8217;s good that Cena and Orton are always contending for the title. It sets a certain expectation for what a champion should be. This isn&#8217;t share time in kindergarten where everyone gets a chance to play with the belt. It is meant for the best. Keep one more thing in mind. If my friends threw me a surprise birthday party every year it really wouldn&#8217;t be a surprise at all. Consistency needs to exist in order for a surprise to be possible

 

[blkshp]

No the problem isn't longer title runs, I mean can you imagine the uproar if Cena or Orton held titles for like a year and a half? The IWC would have a rash of mass suicides! Ok maybe not that bad, but the bitching would increase 10 fold. Fact is its easy to blame creative, and its easy to blame Vince, because ultimately they dictate the end result of the product. But there are two groups that need to take their share of the blame for "boring" title reigns: 1) the wrestlers themselves. When I watch Raw or Smackdown, I notice there's a legitimate difference between the guys at the top and everyone else. The Cena's, Orton's, Miz's, Del Rio's, and Punk's of the WWE seem to demand the audience is paying attention to them. Its in subtle little things like how they say what they say in their promos (whether you like their promos or don't, you always pay attention). When I see Morrison, or Kofi, or Sheamus or Drew, or Ziggler, I don't have that same "pay attention!" Vibe that you see from the main eventers. Now a part of that is from the writers, they're not really giving them too much to say, but the rest of it is on the talent. You can give a guy a script with a few lines, but what's he gonna do with it? That's what a lot of the midcarders need to say to themselves "how can I get over better with the crowd with just a mic?". Love em or hate em, Cena went from generic looking bodybuilder to the most hated white rapper this side of Vanilla Ice to the Cyber Cena - never give up, hustle, loyalty and all that good stuff type Super hero because he made it his business to show Vince (who didn't like him at 1st) and creative what he could do. That's called WORKING AT YOUR CRAFT. Every top guy in this biz has done that, including the Miz who did it while being the lockeroom whipping boy. Ill give him his respect for that. I've seen Cody Rhodes, R-Truth and Ryder take the bull by the horns and the 1st 2 are doing well, as for Ryder, let me put it this way, if Vince doesn't have plans for him, another company will based on his work. 2) the fans, yes its our fault too. Not everybody, but a large number of fans demand the unexpected. Now think about that, many of you have been watching wrestling for what? 10? 20? 30+ years? They have no offseason, they put on shows every week based in the same enviroment and your upset because you don't feel like there's nothing new like in the old days? Well I have news for you, they ran the same storylines in the Attitude Era that they ran during the 80's and now. The difference is the talent is newer and less experienced (due to the lack of territories), the content is geared toward a younger audience and the veteran fanbase is older, wiser, has more access to "dirt sheets" that give away signings, booking and storylines and with all that "insider" knowledge as well as a history with the product those fans have become bitter and restless since its now similar storylines thatre no longer geared toward them. Know how I figured that out? I heard this same argument about the Attitude era from my brother who grew up watching WWF in the 80's. And when the kids from the PG era grow up, they'll say the same things about Cena, Orton, Miz and Del Rio that many on here say about Austin, Rock, Taker and HBK. Circle of life I guess