Did Bret Hart bring the Screwjob situation on himself?

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

You understand what a contract is right? If not google it.

Now you understand the concept of a contract......

Bret was in a position to not want to lose because he had creative control in his contract. A clause in a legally binding document. Stop saying he didn't.

If your basing it on your conception of his as a star then your wrong as he was the top guy. You may not of like him but a hell of a lot of people did.

@Rock Lesnar : Bret may have had "Reasonable" Creative Control in his last 30 days with the WWF, but Vince McMahon has full say on how matches occur, how they go and how they end, so it's not up to Bret to decide whether he leaves the WWF an unbeaten WWF Champion after Survivor Series. It's called a passing of the torch. Shawn was the future, and Bret was the past in that instance.

Bret never actually had full Creative Control in his contract, and for the record, I know full well how contracts actually work. I've seen sports contracts, salaries and I also know a lot about the terms of the contract. Once Bret left for the WCW, his 20-year WWF contract becomes null and void after Survivor Series 1997, and so he's limited to Reasonable Creative Control. Sure, he may want to choose to protect his Hitman character, but he doesn't get to dictate how his matches go, aka leaving an unbeaten WWF Champion let alone refusing to lose to Shawn Michaels in Canada. Plus, Vince knew the Hitman character was going to go stale by the time the WWF Attitude Era starts fully happening by 1998.

 

[Makaveli31]

Jarrett quietly wanted out of the WWF because Vince Russo was going to leave soon after, and Vince asked him to lose to Chyna....without a contract. So Jarrett gets another day to buy him more time to lose the WWF Intercontinental Championship Belt to her in a Housekeeping Match, and then he leaves for WCW soon afterwards.

Quietly huh? So instead of Jarrett "quietly" walking into Vince's office and telling him "Look Vince, my contract expires the day before the PPV so I would like to drop the I-C title the day before, Jarrett walks into Vince's office and demands $300,000 to lose to Chyna at the PPV. LOL $300,000 for one PPV seems pretty steep LOL. Also there was collusion between Russo and Jarrett at the time. Russo made sure Jarrett was booked in a high-profile match with Chyna so Vince couldn't say "Fuck it, give me the belt and leave." The storyline had been set on the first female winning a WWF Championship so Vince HAD to keep Jarrett to do the job for Chyna.

If Bret was in the same situation as Warrior, I would have no sympathy for him, since Bret was NOT in a position to make those unreasonable demands. Warrior was. And just for the record: Warrior actually negotiated peacefully and calmly with Vince, whereas Bret just couldn't even take his time to keep his mouth shut and head down about doing the job for Shawn Michaels without causing a public scene and throwing a magnum opus of his temper tantrums. I am so forever glad and forevermore grateful Vince McMahon never yielded to Bret's crybaby routine any longer.

Warrior was not in ANY position to demand anything of Vince. Warrior was under contract at the time. Warrior basically said "Fuck you", to the fans if he would not get his way. Instead of showing up for the PPV and continuing to work with Vince he threatened to no-show the event which is the ultimate middle finger to the fans. Bret never threatened to no-show the PPV which he said he was in right to do so because he had fulfilled all the dates in his contract.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

@Rock Lesnar : Bret may have had "Reasonable" Creative Control in his last 30 days with the WWF, but Vince McMahon has full say on how matches occur, how they go and how they end, so it's not up to Bret to decide whether he leaves the WWF an unbeaten WWF Champion after Survivor Series. It's called a passing of the torch. Shawn was the future, and Bret was the past in that instance.

Bret never actually had full Creative Control in his contract, and for the record, I know full well how contracts actually work. I've seen sports contracts, salaries and I also know a lot about the terms of the contract. Once Bret left for the WCW, his 20-year WWF contract becomes null and void after Survivor Series 1997, and so he's limited to Reasonable Creative Control. Sure, he may want to choose to protect his Hitman character, but he doesn't get to dictate how his matches go, aka leaving an unbeaten WWF Champion let alone refusing to lose to Shawn Michaels in Canada. Plus, Vince knew the Hitman character was going to go stale by the time the WWF Attitude Era starts fully happening by 1998.

Reasonable is that they both had to agree to a finish. Bret met him half way, Bret didn't demand to win, Bret didn't demand to beat any of their top stars, Bret asked for a dq finish that wouldn't hurt either guy. That's reasonable.

Also there are legal documents that he faxed to VInce that Meltzer showed in the observer where Bret stated that he would lose to Taker, Shamrock, Foley, Austin or the promoted match he had with Brooklyn Brawler at MSG later in November. Vince wanted none of it.

Also Bret still had nearly a month left on his contract after SS, there's a reason that he didn't show up on WCW television till December, and that was because he legally couldn't. There was plenty of time to take the title off of him, but Vince knew that Bret and Shawn hated each other and that he had been promoting Bret as a Canadian hero all year and the loss that would stick it to him the worst would be to lose to Shawn in Canada. That's why he made sure that happened.

 

[therockiswwf]

Bret heard Shawn saying he wasn't going to drop the title to anyone else. Bret thought it would be bad to have a champion like that. He was willing to lose to anyone else. This showed he actually cared about the WWE as most people leaving for another place wouldn't really give a crap. He wanted WWE to still succeed and saw Shawn as a threat to that. I think (not 100% sure) Bret said losing in Canada was not an issue. It was losing to Shawn after what Shawn said.

You should watch the interview Shawn and Bret did on the Network. They cleared up a lot of what happened. I do think Bret should have just dropped it to Shawn but I can see why Bret had reservations. His intentions were not malicious.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

Bret heard Shawn saying he wasn't going to drop the title to anyone else. Bret thought it would be bad to have a champion like that. He was willing to lose to anyone else. This showed he actually cared about the WWE as most people leaving for another place wouldn't really give a crap. He wanted WWE to still succeed and saw Shawn as a threat to that. I think (not 100% sure) Bret said losing in Canada was not an issue. It was losing to Shawn after what Shawn said.

You should watch the interview Shawn and Bret did on the Network. They cleared up a lot of what happened. I do think Bret should have just dropped it to Shawn but I can see why Bret had reservations. His intentions were not malicious.

Yes you are correct the main thing was losing to Shawn but Bret was hesistent to lose in Canada also. The reason being is that Bischoff told him that the WCW was planning to start doing more in Canada like WWE did and they wanted Bret to be their focal point of that. So Bret being already leery of going to a company with Hogan and Nash wanted to come in as strong as he could. If they were indeed going to use Bret to take a piece of the Canadian pie Bret didn't want to look bad to them at all. He may have been a little paranoid but most main eventers were.

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

Sometimes it just seems to be that Bret Hart can't always take criticism. "You better like me!" That's Bret's attitude, and he doesn't even know how to handle it if someone tells him to his face that he/she don't even like his attitude.

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

Michaels jobbed way more than Hart between 1992-1995 as it was anyway, and if anybody was held back from being in the limelight during this time, it was definitely Shawn. Look at some of the guys who were getting bigger pushes than he was at the time, it was absurd. Owen Hart went from an absolute nobody who couldn't cut a promo to the #1 contender and rival of the champion in the company basically over night. Michaels was pushed aside in favor of guys like Owen, Ramon, Diesel, Yokozuna, and Luger for a very very long time. Bret was the one who had the most stroke in the locker room back then and quite frankly I believe he kept Shawn down for all those years. After what Shawn did with Diesel, Jarrett, and Ramon at PPVs that year though and the kinds of reactions he was getting from the crowds compared to Bret, Vince finally woke up and realized it was time for Shawn to get the strap.

Michaels used moves that were cutting edge on the underground wrestling scene and brought them to the mainstream. He was the first big name talent in a major promotion in the United States to wrestle that kind of high flying style. All of the moves Bret used were borrowed or stolen, if you want to use those terms, from virtually every wrestler that wrestled before him. He was very basic; he told a great story with those basic moves, but Bret Hard did not invent the hammerlock or even the Sharpshooter for that matter.

Bret is also a big reason as to why Hall & Nash left the WWE to begin with, they couldn't stand him as a locker room leader and how selfish he was. You say Shawn wasn't one of the boys, but nothing could be further from the truth. The reason the Clique was started to begin with was in hopes of getting a group of wrestlers together to help form sort of a backstage union for better salaries and taking care of everybody on the roster. Shawn approached Bret to be a part of this, since he was the supposed locker room leader at the time, but Bret wanted nothing to do with it. Michaels & Nash tried to explain to him that guys like them may not need that kind of help, but the lower card guys who carry the show did because they didn't have any money coming in from merchandise or anything like that.

Nash said the final straw with Hart came when he, Bret, Vince, and Taker had a meeting before the February 1996 In Your House. Diesel screwed Undertaker out of what would've been a clean win at Royal Rumble, and both guys wanted the same thing to happen in the cage match with Bret. They wanted Diesel to hit the jackknife on Bret and as he was going to leave the cage, Taker would come up from under the ring and pull him down. Thus, the storyline heading into their WM12 match would've been of two guys who screwed each other out of title victories and were now ready to go to war. They tried to tell Bret that his match with Shawn was already going to have huge build-up and anticipation because it was Bret & Shawn and an Iron Man Match and that this idea would boost the Taker/Diesel match at WM12. You want to know what Bret said? "How is this going to make ME look good?" Nash said in all his years of being on the road with Taker, he never saw him get as enraged as he did after that came out of Bret's mouth.

I don't have any problem with people saying Bret Hart was a great wrestler, technician, and story-teller in the ring because that is all true. But when they try to say he was innovative, charismatic, and a better promo cutter than Michaels, that's where I have to draw the line. Michaels also gave back to the business a heck of a lot more by jobbing to people than Bret ever did. As I said before, the only people Bret ever jobbed for were family members. That, in my opinion, is far worse than Shawn jobbing to his friends like Nash, Hall, and Sid. I don't blame Shawn for not wanting to job to Bret at WM13 either. I don't think it's right that a guy can willingly walk away from wrestling for almost a year and then come back and instantly get to represent the company as champion when guys like Shawn, Sid, Undertaker, Austin, and Mankind busted their asses to help carry the company when Bret was gone. Bret stayed away from the WWE in 1996 at a time period when they needed him the most. He shouldn't have been rewarded with a title right away just for coming back.

Making up history? Watch any shoot video with Kevin Nash and he'll tell you what he hated about the WWE, why he left, and what the straw was that broke the camel's back. It comes straight from HIM and not some grapevine crap that you're spewing. As for Hall, he could've cared less about being a main eventer or having a belt. He was sick of being around people who were like that and who forgot that what they did was a show and not real; ie guys like Bret Hart who took it way too serious and way too personal.

I am a fan of Bret Hart's work and his career, but I personally am more drawn to Shawn's persona and the style he wrestled with. I just don't like how people constantly make Bret out to be this angelic company man and Shawn this selfish prick all the time when both guys were right on the line of both. That's the only way you get to be successful in the wrestling business, you have to be a little bit selfish, a little bit egotistical, and a little bit insecure. Yeah, Shawn has his faults and he screwed up a lot in his past, but at least today he faces and acknowledges it. As a person, I can respect that. Bret takes virtually zero responsibility for anything and always thinks he was in the right in everything, like he's a Liberal Democrat who got WAY too cynical for his own good.

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

I think I would be more inclined to believe Kevin Nash's version of what caused him to leave the company that I saw him speak from his own mouth before I would take any third-hand information seriously. You also have Scott Hall way, way wrong; so wrong that it's not even funny. Hall was not obsessed with being a main eventer or a guy who had to have belts all the time. Hall was all about "I work, you pay me" and doing the minimum to get the most money he could. Hall has said that, and this is his words, "I didn't need to be a mark like Bret Hart and have to have a belt all the time to feel like I was doing something for the company."

Plus, there is absolutely ZERO evidence to support claims that Michaels dropped titles to get out of losing them in a match. He had to give up the IC Title during his second reign because he flunked the steroids test... nothing he could do about that. The beating & concussion received in Syracuse DID happen and it wasn't just some sappy story made up for TV. Shawn couldn't wrestle that night, period. And as for not wanting to put Hart over at WM13 and making up an injury, well that, along with the other two incidents, were greatly blown out of proportion and exaggerated with fiction by the anti-Michaels fanbase who base all their stuff on speculation and non-sense instead of facts.

And as for Bret Hart always gloating & putting himself over Shawn by saying Shawn never cut the kind of schedule he did or how he never hurt anybody in the ring... well when you wrestle the furthest thing from a high-impact style that there is, you are not going to get hurt and you're not going to hurt your opponents. Shawn's style left him more susceptible to injuries.

Hart's "great" promos from 1997 are a lot like his wrestling style was: one dimensional. Making fun of the USA for the same stuff week in and week out while you're performing in the country a majority of the time. That doesn't take a rocket scientist to take that angle and get heat with it. Then on the other end, you have Michaels, who was able to hit and potshot Bret from all angles with his promos. Michaels' antics were what kept that feud fresh and from going stale heading into Survivor Series; he carried that feud heading into the PPV much like he carried their match at WM12.

Well most of the people that have been speaking up for him have been mostly Canadian too, don't forget. Bret is loved up there, I saw somewhere that he was voted like the #37 greatest Canadian of ALL-TIME; not just Canadian athlete but CANADIAN period. We wouldn't even have hardly any athletes in our top 100 here in America if we had such a countdown. Just imagine if they were able to grow up with Shawn Michaels as one of their own, there'd probably be a statue on every streetcorner paying homage to the icon!

Exactly, Canada has nowhere near the number of athletes or celebrities for people to get wrapped up in the way the United States has. We have the NFL, NBA, MLB, and Hollywood that get placed on a pedestal way higher in our society here than professional wrestling. That is why there is a huge obsession up there with Bret Hart and what happened in Montreal and that is why the incident here was basically out of people's minds within a few months.

And, of course DX became more popular with the fans after Shawn left. During his last few months there, he was feuding with Austin so the idea was for them to be the bad guys and to get Austin over as the mega huge face going into WM14. After WM14, the approach changed and they tried to push DX as funny pranksters once they got new members.

Again, besides the myths that you have in your own mind, show me that Michaels lied about anything. Give me evidence, something besides the "everybody knows" line. And as for Hall and Nash not being credible, I would take anything those guys say over anything somebody like Bret Hart says. Hall and Nash know the perception the fans have of them, they know about their lifestyle and mentality. They have no reason to make stuff up or sugarcoat it to make themselves look good.

I think the information you've obtained is somewhat inaccurate because #1, Shawn never said he was attacked by 30 guys, he said between 5-10 guys were involved in the attack. There were guys beating on him and several guys holding back Davey Boy and Sean Waltman from interfering, so how is that a lie to say that between 5-10 guys were involved? Shawn also didn't cite a back injury for not being able to wrestle at WM13, his knee was giving him problems and he didn't wrestle for almost 5 months because of it.

And since we are going to bash the Clique for their backstage and personal issues, what about some of Bret Hart's old running buddies? Dynamite Kid, Davey Boy, and Piper were some of the biggest backstage assholes professional wrestling has ever seen, and the guys Bret rolled with were some of the biggest junkies professional wrestling has ever seen... that is why most of them have been dead and gone for a long time now already. Say what you want about Nash and Hall and their ways, but at least they're still alive and kicking. You can't say the same thing about most of Bret's old buddies.

Michaels for sure had more than just a few cuts and bruises after that attack. It would've been foolish for him to have wrestled, given his high impact style, with the kind of concussion that he had. You can die from hitting or snapping your head funny with a concussion.

As for Hart's buddies on the road, he was closely associated with the likes of Don Murraco, Roddy Piper, and Dynamite Kid early on in his career. Those guys rank up there as some of the most notorious scum the business has ever seen. To a lesser extent, Curt Hennig and Hawk were also two guys who were pretty closely associated with Bret when they were in the WWE and both of those guys are dead too.

And, I'm not trying to say that Scott Hall or Sean Waltman are better than those guys because they've had problems and are alive and those guys are dead. I'm just pointing out that most of the crowd Bret surrounded himself with during various points of his career had problems too and maybe even to a greater degree because they did at very young ages. Bret didn't have this clean cut circle of friends and this clean cut fairytale lifestyle on the road that I think a lot of his fans perceive that he had. He has even more skeletons in his closet from life on the road than even Shawn does.

Shawn being doped up & making an ass of himself hurts who exactly? Himself. Who did Bret's poor choices affect while on the road? Himself, his wife, his family, his children. I would say that is worse than ruining yourself. Most of Bret's family (especially his sisters Diana, Ellie and Alison, and even his bro Bruce. Even Owen, Anvil and Bulldog rolled their eyes when they knew Bret took it way too serious and way too personal) don't really have much good to say about him and the arrogance that he displays by almost putting himself on a level above them everytime he speaks or writes something pertaining to them is sickening. I happen to know quite well that young Harry Smith chooses to approach the likes of Shawn and Triple H when he needs advice or has questions about the business. He could give a rat's ass what uncle Bret has to say.

Bottom line: people can bring up the name Shawn Michaels and talk about his career and great matches without bringing up the name Bret Hart. As of today, people can't bring up the name Bret Hart without something coming up about Shawn Michaels or Montreal. You know who's to blame for that? Bret himself, by being a baby and not putting the past behind him. In a way, he is almost ruining his own legacy because more and more, fans forget about his great career and all they have to cling to is their feelings about Montreal.

Hart only behind Hogan? Lets get serious. He had great scientific matches but for the most part, people turned away from wrestling at that time and he wasn't bringing in money or ratings. I would say that both Hart and Michaels look up to the likes of Hogan, Austin, and The Rock at their respective peaks of popularity and perhaps even Bruno Sammartino and Superstar Graham as well. I really would've liked to have seen Hart and Michaels have a decent roster of talent around them to work with, they really had nobody close to their level during most of their singles careers in the WWE. It would've been nice if guys from the older era like Savage and Perfect could've stayed around a bit longer and it's too bad that guys like The Rock, Austin, Angle, and Triple H came around too late.

I also want to point out that I'm a fan of Bret's work in the ring but I just prefer Michaels' over his. The only thing that gets me riled up in this debate all the time, no matter who I have it with, is when people try to take the high and mighty approach with Bret at Shawn's expense. True, Shawn had an attitude, drug problems, and hung out with a few sketchy characters but Bret's ego never allowed for him to put too many guys over besides his brother and he hung out with some sleazebags during his career too. Neither guy is an angel and neither guy is evil, kind of like I said before, you have to be a little bit of an insecure egomaniac to attain that kind of success in professional wrestling. I think both of these guys are awesome and I'd rather watch a generation of wrestling centered around them than Hogan/Warrior, Austin/Rock, or Cena/Triple H by far. They just never had an abundance of talent around them to work with.

I wonder what would've happened with Bret had he touched Shawn or Triple H. Do you guys think Nash & Hall would've pushed to have him buried when he arrived in WCW, or possibly retaliated in kind? It's something interesting to think about.

I could see Vince doing what he did as a last resort kind of thing if they'd brought up numerous other suggestions and nothing worked, but I really don't think he made that kind of effort to do so; but I do see where he was coming from with what he did to Bret. I don't agree with it though. He made two of the best workers in the history of his company and the two guys that carried his company through a very rough stretch where they were bordering on going out of business look very bad depending on your point of view on the situation.

Here is what I would've done in that situation. The agreed finish (what Bret thought was going to happen heading into the match) was for it to be a double DQ after the Hart Foundation and DX ran in. So, basically Bret was cool with the match not having a definite winner; but as for Vince worrying about him keeping the belt and taking it to WCW/leaving WWE with it, here is what they could've done...

They could've had a similar finish to what happened with Michaels/Bulldog in 1996 with a double pin. The match ends, the ref says one guy (lets say Hart) won but McMahon or Commissioner Slaughter or whoever comes out and says that Michaels won. You have a heated debate in the ring that results in Michaels and Hart getting into it before anything can get settled, then you have the Hart Foundation and DX come out as was planned before. Amidst the chaos, the match can't be re-started and the show goes off the air with no clear winner.

Since there is no clear winner, they are left with no other choice but to vacate it the next night on RAW. From a storyline purpose (to explain Bret leaving for WCW), you could have Bret be so enraged with this decision that he felt "screwed over" and had finally had it with the WWE and "quits" and shows up in WCW weeks later. The WWE could've then had a tournament or whatever to crown a new champion and they could've put the belt on Michaels that way.

I think that way, you get the belt on Michaels without him beating Bret/Bret dropping it to him, nobody gets screwed over, you are able to "explain" why one of the biggest stars left for another company in a storyline sense, and by doing it that way, you leave the door open for a possible return from Hart "out of vengeance" if he ever decided that he wanted to come back.

I also forgot to mention that on that Kevin Nash shoot interview, he sang Bret's praises more than anything. He said if he would've been booking at the time when Bret came to WCW, he would've put the belt on him right away. He said WCW was a heel factory and Bret was coming in with a ton of momentum and would've been a legit company champ to run through the NWO. He said they could've had him feud with him, Hall, Hogan, anybody.

Nash doesn't use it as a time to brag himself up, he actually pokes fun at himself quite a bit. He talks about how whether he felt people were mad about the "1 finger finish" between he and Hogan and he goes "Yeah right, we really cheated them out of the epic Nash/Hogan battle... like that would've been a real barn burner."

Another interesting thing he talks about, which I find is interesting because he is a good friend of Shawn's, is that he feels Montreal (or at least parts of it) were a work. He said there's no way Vince would've allowed himself to look the way he did in certain scenes of the documentary (staggering, beat up, etc...) unless he was behind it.

 

[Makaveli31]

Your analysis that somehow Shawn Michaels was held down or held back the years Bret was on top is seriously puzzling. Michaels was a MAJOR player in the "New Generation Era" either main or semi main event. When Bret was feuding with Owen, Shawn was feuding with Razor both feuds made sense at the time and gave us GREAT matches. What is your problem with that?!? BOTH Bret and Shawn were often pushed aside in favor of much larger superstars i.e. Yoko, Luger, and Diesel but it wasn't Bret's doing in act it was the OPPOSITE. Bret lobbied for Shawn. He wanted to work with Shawn. He knew both men could draw money for many years to come hence Bret trying to do an angle with Shawn that unfortunately it became a shoot.

You say Shawn wasn't one of the boys, but nothing could be further from the truth. The reason the Clique was started to begin with was in hopes of getting a group of wrestlers together to help form sort of a backstage union for better salaries and taking care of everybody on the roster. Shawn approached Bret to be a part of this, since he was the supposed locker room leader at the time, but Bret wanted nothing to do with it. Michaels & Nash tried to explain to him that guys like them may not need that kind of help, but the lower card guys who carry the show did because they didn't have any money coming in from merchandise or anything like that.

Again, you are mistaken. According to Bret, the "Kliq" approached him in Germany about starting a group of top guys that would only work with each other and put each other over to monopolize the money and the top spots. It had nothing to do with unions or getting the lower card guys better pay days. As for Kevin Nash and his contract, I'm pretty sure the million dollars a year Bischoff was going to pay him factored ALOT more in his decision to jump than whatever Bret did in a match.

And as for not wanting to put Hart over at WM13 and making up an injury, well that, along with the other two incidents, were greatly blown out of proportion and exaggerated with fiction by the anti-Michaels fanbase who base all their stuff on speculation and non-sense instead of facts.

Where is the "fiction" in that? It is FACT that Michaels refused to work with Bret at WM 13. Michaels even says it in his book. So it came "straight from his mouth" as you like to say. Where is the "speculation in that?"

And since we are going to bash the Clique for their backstage and personal issues, what about some of Bret Hart's old running buddies? Dynamite Kid, Davey Boy, and Piper were some of the biggest backstage assholes professional wrestling has ever seen, and the guys Bret rolled with were some of the biggest junkies professional wrestling has ever seen... that is why most of them have been dead and gone for a long time now already. Say what you want about Nash and Hall and their ways, but at least they're still alive and kicking. You can't say the same thing about most of Bret's old buddies.

Again yo mistaken, Bret didn't "roll" with anybody. It is well established he was a loner on the road. In fact, his nickname was "Lone Wolf." He didn't travel with Niedhart, he didn't travel with Davey, he didn't even travel with Owen. In fact, he was very critical and brutally honest about Davey and his drug use in his book. Get your facts straight.

The only thing that gets me riled up in this debate all the time, no matter who I have it with, is when people try to take the high and mighty approach with Bret at Shawn's expense

Again, no high and mighty approach here just facts.

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

Your analysis that somehow Shawn Michaels was held down or held back the years Bret was on top is seriously puzzling. Michaels was a MAJOR player in the "New Generation Era" either main or semi main event. When Bret was feuding with Owen, Shawn was feuding with Razor both feuds made sense at the time and gave us GREAT matches. What is your problem with that?!? BOTH Bret and Shawn were often pushed aside in favor of much larger superstars i.e. Yoko, Luger, and Diesel but it wasn't Bret's doing in act it was the OPPOSITE. Bret lobbied for Shawn. He wanted to work with Shawn. He knew both men could draw money for many years to come hence Bret trying to do an angle with Shawn that unfortunately it became a shoot.



Again, you are mistaken. According to Bret, the "Kliq" approached him in Germany about starting a group of top guys that would only work with each other and put each other over to monopolize the money and the top spots. It had nothing to do with unions or getting the lower card guys better pay days. As for Kevin Nash and his contract, I'm pretty sure the million dollars a year Bischoff was going to pay him factored ALOT more in his decision to jump than whatever Bret did in a match.



Where is the "fiction" in that? It is FACT that Michaels refused to work with Bret at WM 13. Michaels even says it in his book. So it came "straight from his mouth" as you like to say. Where is the "speculation in that?"



Again yo mistaken, Bret didn't "roll" with anybody. It is well established he was a loner on the road. In fact, his nickname was "Lone Wolf." He didn't travel with Niedhart, he didn't travel with Davey, he didn't even travel with Owen. In fact, he was very critical and brutally honest about Davey and his drug use in his book. Get your facts straight.



Again, no high and mighty approach here just facts.

Actually Makaveli, I need you to critique the parts of my arguments that you have not yet done, like what you've done with your set of my arguments in pieces. I really need you to do my full entire post in snippets, because unlike other WrestleZone forum members, I like to have a nice debate with you every time we post each other and reply to each other's posts in response. I personally admit that Bret was a great wrestler, but all the perceived events probably happened at a time when even after WCW folded in 2001, Bret still never came back to the WWF in any capacity besides wrestling, and even after Vince was the first one to call Bret when Bret got hospitalized with a stroke courtesy of a bicycle accident in 2002, one month after Davey died via heart attack while on vacation in British Columbia with Andrea Hart. That explains Flair's book in 2004, and the perceived notion that Bret failed as a top draw.

Bret almost even had a critique DVD in a similar vein as The Self-Destruction of The Ultimate Warrior (2004) DVD. In the Self-Destruction of the Ultimate Warrior DVD, only Jericho and Edge gave a fair assessment close to a positive one of Warrior, while Vince McMahon, Jim Ross, Brooklyn Brawler, Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Triple H, Sgt. Slaughter, Ted DiBiase, Sr. and Jerry Lawler all were told to act harsh to Warrior and act like he's the biggest bust in wrestling as this flash in the pan guy.

Although in Bret's potential burial DVD, they would have had other established stars like Hogan and HBK trash his in-ring capability, bring up early to mid 90's dropping ratings and pin it on Hart's runs as champion rather than on Nash or Yokozuna, and, yeah, a lot of focus on Montreal, not "honoring the time honored tradition", his whining afterwards. Maybe Flair would have jumped on board to slam Bret's skills too.

It would have portrayed WWE as being a nice friendly company who did everything they could to help Bret, even when he was stinking out arenas and causing crowds to plummet until the ungrateful git (at least in WWE's eyes if Bret hadn't fully made amends) picked up his ball and left for WCW because he didn't want to lose a wrestling match.

And then you would have had the quotes:
-1) "Bret took himself too seriously."

-2) "Bret liked to talk trash to the dirt sheets and then say that he's just working an angle."

-3) "Bret often had extramarital affairs."

-4) "Bret didn't draw a dime as WWE champion."

-5) "Bret says he was a company man, if he really cared about WWE, he would have taken the pay cut from his 20 year contract."

-6) "Bret's overrated. He only knew how to do five moves."

-7) "Bret was too small to ever reach true immortality."

__

The WWE can basically rewrite history anyway they want.
-1) They would've claimed that ratings went down when his was the champion. When in reality the business had peaked and was in a down period.

-2) They would've talked of how sick the fans were of him and they wanted to see Steve Austin and D-Generation X.

-3) They would've mentioned what a failure he was in WCW, when the failure was how WCW booked him.

And cue the irony of Ric Flair calling Bret Hart a routine man.

 

[Makaveli31]

Actually Makaveli, I need you to critique the parts of my arguments that you have not yet done, like what you've done with your set of my arguments in pieces. I really need you to do my full entire post in snippets, because unlike other WrestleZone forum members, I like to have a nice debate with you every time we post each other and reply to each other's posts in response. I personally admit that Bret was a great wrestler, but all the perceived events probably happened at a time when even after WCW folded in 2001, Bret still never came back to the WWF in any capacity besides wrestling, and even after Vince was the first one to call Bret when Bret got hospitalized with a stroke courtesy of a bicycle accident in 2002, one month after Davey died via heart attack while on vacation in British Columbia with Andrea Hart. That explains Flair's book in 2004, and the perceived notion that Bret failed as a top draw.

I can't because it's YOUR opinion. You say Shawn was more charismatic, a better promo guy, and more innovative than Bret. It's hard to debate that. If that's what you believe, it's what you believe. If you prefer Shawn's persona and style over Bret's, so be it. I will not go back and forth with you on that. Most of your post in strictly opinion. I just deal with the parts where I feel you are either inaccurate or flat out wrong.

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

This thread post has the highest amount of views I have ever had in WrestleZone, largely because I get real controversial and fired up sometimes doing posts to the point that I come close to ending up like Crocker. When I'm not treading towards having the worst mental mind state where i'm fired up too quickly, that is when I make the good decent thread posts.

Crocker's got the same similar disposition about John Cena the same way I do about Bret Hart. The difference is that Crocker outright hates Cena, without going into detail just why, indeed why, does Crocker really hate Cena. Whereas at least I still respect Bret Hart the wrestler for his work in the ring as a technically sound wrestler whose body of work is not meant to be for show but is designed to go aka Wrestler's Body like Curt Hennig, even if I don't like what Bret did on the road 300+ days a year such as portraying himself as a devoted family man and angelic company man, when he was seeing groupies, ring rats and maybe Tammy Lynn Sytch behind his then-wife Julie's back.

To be fair to Bret regarding Sunny however, I can't blame him if his wife Julie was being a pain to him, expecting him to be home for their kids helping them do their homework. Even if Bret was not a money oriented guy, Julie was. I give Bret some alpha brownie points for possibly hooking up with Sunny since Bret apparently didn't like to get dressed with the other guys, so he shared the same locker room with Sunny. Both of them were never in the same locker at the same time.

 

[LBGetBack]

Bret Hart is the greatest wrestler in wrestling history and is eternal champion's paragon of virtue. End of discussion. Let's move on.

 

[Stone Cold Tea]

Eternal champion hides in the bushes outside Bret Harts house.

 

[HBKperfect23]

-4) "Bret didn't draw a dime as WWE champion."

I'm Brets biggest critic. I think he's been very bitter, forced Vince's hand in Montreal, and was occasionally tough to deal with due to taking himself too seriously. That being said, I hate blaming Bret for lack of ratings as champion. 1992 reign was the first time we had a face get a real shot as champion without Hogan being on tv. I think Bret did a great job and laid the foundation for the champion being on tv every week. Also, the 97 reign was during, IMO, the greatest tv in WWF history. It just didn't get the ratings yet. They were winning the people over but haven't gotten their viewership from WCW back just yet. Bret, Shawn, Taker and the rise of Austin, Rock,Foley,HHH was, again IMO, largely responsible from the attitude era starting and the ratings 1998 would see.

I look at those two Bret title runs the same as Shawns 96 run. Ratings were horrible but not due to the champion.

 

[d_henderson1810]

@agentmichaelscarn : Because Hogan, Hall, Nash, Sting, Flair, Savage, Austin, Rock, Warrior, HBK, HHH, DDP, Undertaker, Angle, Piper, Jake Roberts, Paul Wight, Sid, Jericho, Vader, Bagwell, Booker T, Luger, Jarrett, Hennig, Rude, Batista, Miz, Sheamus, Cena, Orton and Scott Steiner were all better than Bret Hart in terms of charisma and mic skills (which is what a WWF top guy should expect to have), so therefore, those guys all have the right to dictate who to lose to, and Bret definitely had NO right to refuse to lose to HBK, because the Hitman isn't good enough to even make those unreasonable demands. Those unreasonable demands should be made by the likes of Hogan, and I mean, those unreasonable demands should only be granted to Hogan, Hall, Nash, Flair, Sting, Savage, Austin, Rock, Warrior, HBK, HHH, DDP, Undertaker, Angle, Piper, Jake, Paul Wight, Sid, Jericho, Vader, Bagwell, Booker T, Luger, Jarrett, Hennig, Rude, Batista, Miz, Sheamus, Goldberg, Lesnar, Cena, Orton and Steiner.

You know what? The likes of Hogan, Hall, Nash, Sting, Flair, Savage, Austin, Rock, Warrior, HBK, HHH, DDP, Undertaker, Angle, Piper, Jake, Paul Wight, Sid, Jericho, Goldberg, Lesnar, Vader, Bagwell, Booker T, Luger, Hennig, Rude, Steiner, Batista and eventually Cena, Orton, Miz and Sheamus (will) have all had the opportunity to say no, and decide to refuse to lose their final match on their way out of the WWF, and unlike Bret, they all decided that losing their final match out on their backs is worth it, in order to put over the future and passing the torch. I included HHH because he hasn't been a full-time wrestler since 2012 when he still had the long hair and lost his final full-time match to Brock Lesnar.

Mind you, Bret Hart should remind you of two core members of The Young Turks: Cenk Uygur and Ana Kasparian. Those two are crybabies on an equal level with Bret.

I have not been hypocritical about wrestlers "playing politics". The fact is, I never like when anyone does it.

Wrestlers who "play politics" are selfish and holding the company back. I have been critical of anyone who has done it, not just Bret.

The difference between Bret and Shawn is, Shawn never pretended to be anything else. That doesn't absolve him, but Bret can't criticise someone else for refusing to do a job when he then goes and refuses to do a job as well.

 

[d_henderson1810]

Bret Hart is the greatest wrestler in wrestling history and is eternal champion's paragon of virtue. End of discussion. Let's move on.

Don't forget to mention how Bret feeds the world's hungry, cures diseases, brings world peace, helps little old ladies across the world and pulls children out of burning buildings.

 

[d_henderson1810]

Quietly huh? So instead of Jarrett "quietly" walking into Vince's office and telling him "Look Vince, my contract expires the day before the PPV so I would like to drop the I-C title the day before, Jarrett walks into Vince's office and demands $300,000 to lose to Chyna at the PPV. LOL $300,000 for one PPV seems pretty steep LOL. Also there was collusion between Russo and Jarrett at the time. Russo made sure Jarrett was booked in a high-profile match with Chyna so Vince couldn't say "Fuck it, give me the belt and leave." The storyline had been set on the first female winning a WWF Championship so Vince HAD to keep Jarrett to do the job for Chyna.



Warrior was not in ANY position to demand anything of Vince. Warrior was under contract at the time. Warrior basically said "Fuck you", to the fans if he would not get his way. Instead of showing up for the PPV and continuing to work with Vince he threatened to no-show the event which is the ultimate middle finger to the fans. Bret never threatened to no-show the PPV which he said he was in right to do so because he had fulfilled all the dates in his contract.

Who signs someone to a contract that expires one day before a PPV anyway? Vince knew that Jarrett's contract was up soon. He should have signed him or if he couldn't (because Jarrett was going to WCW), then Vince should have booked to end the Jarrett-Chyna feud a month earlier, so Jarrett wouldn't even be needed for the PPV. That's Vince's fault.

Why should Jarrett work one match without payment? What if Jarrett got injured in that match? He is uncontracted, so Vince could have left him high and dry in the event of injury. I hope that you are not suggesting that Jarrett risk himself in a match, while not under contract, for free.

So, "no-showing" is the ultimate finger to the fans. I hope you are as critical of "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, who has walked out on WWE many times, one time an hour before Raw started, he quit, because he refused to put Brock Lesnar over. Hope you are as critical of him as you are of Warrior.

 

[CowSlayer]

So, "no-showing" is the ultimate finger to the fans. I hope you are as critical of "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, who has walked out on WWE many times, one time an hour before Raw started, he quit, because he refused to put Brock Lesnar over. Hope you are as critical of him as you are of Warrior.

Except according to The Eternal Champion, it's ok that Austin did that. Cuz he's a big-drawing superstar..that Bret isn't...

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

Except according to The Eternal Champion, it's ok that Austin did that. Cuz he's a big-drawing superstar..that Bret isn't...

@CowSlayer : Yeah, and Debra had the gall to call the cops on Austin for supposedly abusing her. Austin wasn't in a good place at the time, he was probably stressed out from a combination of his neck problems since Owen's silly Piledriver, being surpassed by The Rock, Triple H, Hulk Hogan and Brock Lesnar, and his pushover ex-wife Debra McMichael Miceli.

WWE rightfully placed a gag order on Debra Miceli because if she threatened to expose Austin like he's some kind of unruly animal in Debra's eyes, WWE financially would be back to the same levels they were in the New Generation era or even the pre-Hogan era, back to the Territorial/Regional stage WWE would have went.

That's why I take "Stone Cold" Steve Austin's side in the 2002 domestic dispute. Had Bret Hart actually done some kind of domestic violence to his ex-wife Julie Hart back in 1998, or had Shawn Michaels actually went ahead and did some domestic violence towards Sunny? I could see the IWC turning their backs on Bret and HBK in a heart beat, given that they still take Austin's side despite his domestic feud that cost him Debra as a wife. Bret and HBK would've been fired on the spot, while Austin would've been given a second chance.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Who signs someone to a contract that expires one day before a PPV anyway? Vince knew that Jarrett's contract was up soon. He should have signed him or if he couldn't (because Jarrett was going to WCW), then Vince should have booked to end the Jarrett-Chyna feud a month earlier, so Jarrett wouldn't even be needed for the PPV. That's Vince's fault.

Why should Jarrett work one match without payment? What if Jarrett got injured in that match? He is uncontracted, so Vince could have left him high and dry in the event of injury. I hope that you are not suggesting that Jarrett risk himself in a match, while not under contract, for free.

So, "no-showing" is the ultimate finger to the fans. I hope you are as critical of "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, who has walked out on WWE many times, one time an hour before Raw started, he quit, because he refused to put Brock Lesnar over. Hope you are as critical of him as you are of Warrior.

This happened a few times in that era... Lex Luger etc... Vince hadn't quite gotten past the handshake thing yet and JR's department at talent relations did drop the ball more than once when it came to contracts...or rather thats how Vince would have spun it. It's entirely possible and perhaps likely that after the Luger debacle, that JR himself would have been trying to get Vince to deal with it, but Jarrett just wasn't that important to him.

He figured "He'll do what I want and if he doesn't, screw him" - there was probably a final reminder that Vince ignored and it then created the situation... From Jarrett's perspective he was well within his right to ask for a big pay off - not cos he was out of contract but because they were asking for him to job to a woman for a title out of contract- which had never been done and would inevitably "damage him" going into WCW. Remember that's the other side of this... Vince perhaps KNEW he was gonna be going/out of contract and the "job to Chyna" thing was to devalue him, especially as this was the 2nd time he'd jumped.

Remember this is what Bret didn't want to do and as he later admitted didn't even have to... he'd done his dates, he could have said to Vince on the night of the show "here's the belt, I'm going home..." Jarrett was willing to do the job he was being asked to do, but not for free...he set his price and got it.

Vince hated it of course but ultimately Jarrett was 100% right to do it... Vince was more annoyed because it set the precedent, now everyone could do it... it took till Christian in 05 to really undo that damage when he was seen to work a couple of shows out of contract...

Ultimately had he been jobbing to Jericho or someone else, then he wouldn't have asked for extra money... but to a woman? Yeah that was a BIG ask... and Vince was crazy to think he'd get that for free.

 

[Emmet]

Everyone involved in the MSJ was responsible for how it reached that point.

Vince knew in September 1997 he wanted to let go of Bret, but he waited two months to get the belt off him and then boxed himself into a corner by wanting Bret to lay down for the ONE person in the company who he wouldn't do business with in Canada. If Vince didn't really want to tear Bret down he could have had Bret lose to just about anyone else on the roster, who in turn could have dropped it to HBK at the next PPV. Problem solved.

Bret is responsible for taking himself too seriously, but at the end of the day it wasn't about 'laying down in Canada'. It was about lying down for HBK, who point blank told him he would never put him over - in front of a dressing room full of people - that killed any chance of Bret laying down for him in Canada.

HBK is the biggest moron of the entire saga. Instead of thinking of the potential 5 star matches and money he could have drawn with Hart in 1997 and further afield had he been even a little bit of a team player in 1997, he played the petty politics game. Not wanting to lay down for Bret or anyone else and feigning injuries. He was poison in 1997, acknowledged by near enough every single individual who worked for the company at the time.

I always find it ironic that Vince essentially picked HBK over Hart, and within five months both were gone and Austin had the run of the company to himself.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Wrestlers are independent contractors. Furthermore, regardless of their own talent and ability, they rely largely on other people (bookers or script writers, other wrestlers) to make them look good. Imagine a house painter, animal trainer, or a tailor who has to base their individual success on the work of people who in many cases never did their jobs or others competing with them for salary and position in the company. It is an insane system.

Hart managed to get a level of creative control, its not his "fault", Vince didnt have to give it to him. If you have it, you worked for it and was awarded it why not use it ?

Meanwhile, while no one forced Vince to give storyline control to Hart regarding his character, no one also forced him ten years earlier to parade the highly recognizable "big gold belt", the symbol of WWE's main competitor, WCW, all over their TV shows proclaiming the arrival of the biggest and best known WCW star to their company (Ric Flair). More than anything, that action, considered one of the all time greatest cut throat moves ever in the two decades wrestling wars between the companies, was the primary reason for "Montreal". Bottom line, at the height of the "Monday Night Wars" (which at the time Vince was losing), WWE couldnt afford to have Hart show up on WCW Nitro dumping on the WWE World Title, or worse, completely undermining the legitimacy of the next WWE champ by having Brett Hart proclaiming himself as "The Real WWE Champion", just as Vince had done to WCW as fans *#*# all over top contenders Lex Luger & Barry Whyndam as Flair was paraded about WWE TV as "The Real World Champion".

HBK has admitted he was a jerk during this time, just as some like Hall & Nash have claimed through the years Hart was too connected to his gimmick. None of that really is the issue, "Montreal" happened because along with everything else on the table Vince couldnt let WCW pay him back for 1991.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Who signs someone to a contract that expires one day before a PPV anyway? Vince knew that Jarrett's contract was up soon. He should have signed him or if he couldn't (because Jarrett was going to WCW), then Vince should have booked to end the Jarrett-Chyna feud a month earlier, so Jarrett wouldn't even be needed for the PPV. That's Vince's fault.

Why should Jarrett work one match without payment? What if Jarrett got injured in that match? He is uncontracted, so Vince could have left him high and dry in the event of injury. I hope that you are not suggesting that Jarrett risk himself in a match, while not under contract, for free.

So, "no-showing" is the ultimate finger to the fans. I hope you are as critical of "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, who has walked out on WWE many times, one time an hour before Raw started, he quit, because he refused to put Brock Lesnar over. Hope you are as critical of him as you are of Warrior.

According to Jarret, the issue was not extending his deal or ending his storyline earlier, it was the fact WWE royalties on merchandise sales often were a few months behind and Jarrett didnt want to risk not getting the royalties. He essentially "held up" Vince for a large lump sum to do his last appearance as a way to re coup his last royalty check he was unlikely to recieve after leaving.

 

[Makaveli31]

Who signs someone to a contract that expires one day before a PPV anyway? Vince knew that Jarrett's contract was up soon. He should have signed him or if he couldn't (because Jarrett was going to WCW), then Vince should have booked to end the Jarrett-Chyna feud a month earlier, so Jarrett wouldn't even be needed for the PPV. That's Vince's fault.

Why should Jarrett work one match without payment? What if Jarrett got injured in that match? He is uncontracted, so Vince could have left him high and dry in the event of injury. I hope that you are not suggesting that Jarrett risk himself in a match, while not under contract, for free.

It was an oversight by talent relations (JR's department). By this time the WWE was giving out full blown iron-clad guaranteed contracts in response to Hall and Nash's defection as opposed to contracts that just rolled over year to year. You really expect Vince to be up on everyone's contract and when each one finishes?!? This was delegated to newly-created talent relations department headed by Jim Ross.

Again, Russo was doing the booking. Vince basically was either accepting or vetoing ideas at that point. He was not a main booker or storyline guy. So Russo, in collusion with Jarrett, kept the storyline going all the way up to the final day of the contract when Jarrett was supposed to put over Chyna. This was a main storyline for the PPV and one that had been building for months and this was the payoff. I'm not suggesting anything. I'm saying Jarrett bascially held up Vince for money to do the PPV. Yes, it was money technically "owed" to him but they were not paid months in advance like Jarrett demanded.

So, "no-showing" is the ultimate finger to the fans. I hope you are as critical of "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, who has walked out on WWE many times, one time an hour before Raw started, he quit, because he refused to put Brock Lesnar over. Hope you are as critical of him as you are of Warrior.
sendpm.gif

Yes I am. He screwed the fans. No bones about it.