Final: Goku vs. Juggernaut

[JGlass]

Final Battle

It all comes down to this. After long roads of tough battles, these two titans fight to determine who the winner of the BattleZone Supers bracket will be. Goku looks to avenge his early exit from last year's tournament by taking home the trophy. The Saiyan hasn't had an easy time this year, struggling with Marvel heroes and villains throughout his entire journey, sometimes only beating them by the slimmest of margins. Juggernaut's first year in the tournament has proven to be a successful one as he has charged right through his competition, flattening nearly anyone that has gotten in his path of destruction.

But none of that matters now, it's all about which man will win this one fight. Will it be Son Goku, the long time defender of Earth and powerful Sayin, or will Juggernaut, beneficiary of the M'Kraan Crystal and one of Marvel's most fearsome villains, be the one that walks out of the BattleZone as the winner?

FIGHT!​

 

[Snitsky4GM]

Goku had a massive struggle against the Hulk, and barely won that match. Juggernaut and Hulk have never had a definitive win against each other because they are two incredibly powerful forces. Juggernaut has the upper hand over Hulk though when he has access to his entire tool set. During the 8th Day event Cain was given the actual power Cytorrak intended for his avatar to have and his power was increased 100 fold according to Thor.

With such a huge power boost this version of Juggernaut vastly outweighs the Hulk and Goku in terms of strength. If this doesn't convince anyone that Juggernaut will just stomp Goku in this tournament then their is one more incarnation of Juggernaut that is even more powerful. Trion Juggernaut was so powerful that he was able to punch his way through reality into other dimensions. Each time he did this he became more powerful growing to over 100 feet tall in the process.

Vote for the force that cannot be stopped, vote Juggernaut!

 

[Steve0904]

I'm going to wait for a few more opinions to come in I think. Right now I'm leaning towards Goku. Juggernaut may be stronger than Hulk, but as far as I can tell Goku will have even more of a decided edge in speed. Hulk and Juggernaut are quite similar, and Goku did scrape out the win, but he did still win. It's not always strength that wins. Also if Juggernaut has been persuaded into doing evil before then Goku won't hesitate against him like he may have against Hulk.

 

[Alex]

I want Goku to win but odds are he won't mainly because he will tire out. As far as I know Juggernaut doesn't. Goku would certainly be able to give Juggernaut a run for his money in the pure power region, but unless he's a load of senzu beans at his disposal Goku's gonna tire out allowing Juggernaut to win.

 

[Steve0904]

Goku may tire, unlike Juggernaut, however he has proven that he can go for a nice while at a fair amount of his full power. Stamina and resistance to injury are two totally different things, (I know Juggernaut has body armour but Hulk does as well) and I still think Goku has enough power to hurt the guy. It's just that he may need to finish the fight sooner rather than later, and as I said above, he shouldn't have too much of a problem with this considering Juggernaut has done his share of evil. Goku wasn't even as strong as Cell when they fought, but he won on smarts technically if he had just destroyed the rest of Cell's body.

 

[Milkyway!]

The one thing that Hulk had that made it such a close fight with The Hulk was the fact that The Hulk has shown great feats of jumping which would make the flying aspect of Goku a little less OP against fighters like Hulk and Juggernaut.

However, Marvel has never shown Juggernaut's ability to jump. Ever. Regardless if he has super strength, regardless if he's unstoppable, regardless if he can live forever without food/water Juggernaut has one massive flaw against a strong fighter (arguably just as strong as both Hulk and Juggernaut) as fast and as mobile as Goku.

He cannot get to Goku in the air.

What happens if Goku realizes he physically cannot beat Juggernaut after going toe-to-toe with him for a few hours?

Juggernaut was never one to not blab off his mouth about his powers and his strengths. Goku can then use his mobility, gather the Dragonballs (Call it Goku's mystic items seeing as those have effects on Juggernaut according to Marvel), and simply wish for him to be capable of taking damage, stop his regeneration, wish the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak to fuck off, or anything of that nature.

 

[Bernkastel]

I'm going to stick with the same arguments that I used last round because no one was able to disprove them, and considering that Juggernaut has better defensive feats than the Hulk that should play in his favor.

My first argument is that SSJ2 would likely do jack shit to hurt the Juggernaut do to his invulnerable force field. If Thor couldn't hurt Juggernaut enough to stop him, even using the God Blast, then what the fuck would an IT Kamehameha do?

Spoiler

Thor's God Blast has shown to have the power to galaxy bust at max power...

Spoiler

That means that the Kamehameha is out, as well as the Destructo Disc, which was the best argument that the Pro-Goku side had against Hulk. But neither will work against the Juggernaut.

That brings me to my second argument, SSJ3. Goku will have to use it. And has I laid out last round, his stamina while using the form is not only shit, but there's no canon evidence that his physical strength would increase enough to actually injure the Juggernaut. That will be his downfall; he will waste all of his energy due to massive ki bleeding, and Juggernaut will eventually catch him and finish him off.

Goku may tire, unlike Juggernaut, however he has proven that he can go for a nice while at a fair amount of his full power.

Try only a couple of minutes. SSJ3 Goku's fight against Kid Buu lasted only a few moments because he couldn't sustain the power of the transformation.

However, Marvel has never shown Juggernaut's ability to jump. Ever. Regardless if he has super strength, regardless if he's unstoppable, regardless if he can live forever without food/water Juggernaut has one massive flaw against a strong fighter (arguably just as strong as both Hulk and Juggernaut) as fast and as mobile as Goku.

Flight will only save Goku for so long. Short range, uncharged Ki blasts won't work, and neither will hand to hand combat. The best argument for Goku would be to fly up into the air and either charge a Spirit Bomb or a massive Kamehameha. But Juggernaut is not going to stand there like an idiot and let him. He's going to start hurling boulders at Goku which will break his concentration. Trion Juggernaut was shown capable of punching through dimensions with his raw power, which puts his physical strength on par with Super Buu's and SSJ3 Gotenks energy... both of whom are stronger than Goku.

Spoiler

Juggernaut was never one to not blab off his mouth about his powers and his strengths. Goku can then use his mobility, gather the Dragonballs (Call it Goku's mystic items seeing as those have effects on Juggernaut according to Marvel), and simply wish for him to be capable of taking damage, stop his regeneration, wish the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak to fuck off, or anything of that nature.

Goku doesn't keep a Dragon Radar on his person; argument not viable.

Vote Juggernaut.

 

[nightmare]

How does Goku win?

IT with Juggs and drop him off on another planet? Yeah that can work but kind of cheap.


Goku traps him in stone? That happened before thanks to a crafty Spiderman. If Goku blasts a hole in the earth or thru a volcano, the lava will eat up Juggs and as it cools it could trap him long enough to count as immobilized. No momentum= no continue. I doubt there will just happen to be a concrete truck around so that is the most likely scenario.


Blasts him hard enough to pop him up into space? Very likely. Juggs can survive without oxygen, but he has no way to get down. His momentum will carry him far far away. That means a win for Goku if he cant compete because he is sailing off into space with nothing to stop him or turn him around.


When Juggs is mobile he is unstoppable. Problem for him is that Goku rarely spends time engaging battle on the ground. Juggs hasnt been known as a vertical fighter. He comes at you head on. So how can he defeat a guy who isnt in his destructive foreward path? He cant.

 

[Bernkastel]

How does Goku win?

IT with Juggs and drop him off on another planet? Yeah that can work but kind of cheap.

Battlefield removal won't work against the Juggernaut. He can draw on the power and influence of Cyttorak which even allows him to teleport through dimensions.

Spoiler

By tapping into Cyttorak's power grants the Juggernaut other powers as well. Here he is using magical energy projection to shrink and bound the reality warper Nightmare, who at the time was the size of the solar system. Dr. Strange couldn't defeat him, so he used Juggernaut as his trump card.

Spoiler

Goku has no chance of defending himself against a mystical attack on that level. He won't stop the Juggernaut.

 

[nightmare]

His teleportation abilities? From what I remember D'Spayre over exaggerated the powers based on the ability of Cyttorak himself rather than that of the shard Juggernaut has.


I also remember Juggs being brought back from Crimson Cosmos by Xavier (slowly at that, by some sort of device or machine). He did make his way out of Oblivion back to Earth, though that took some time and im not so sure it was by his own power. He was banished by Thor to a different dimension and was only brought back because of Black Tom and ..... another machine.


So, I think you are missing how he actually got back from those times- or grossly overstating his ability. Either way, his return from those situations were with others help and over a good amount of time- not instantly. Also, it is Cyttorak himself that controls the majority of the powers and Juggs cannot replicate certian things by his own hand(magic\portals, etc) -it seems to happen inadvertently more often than not.


Plus he didnt build up to those powers and keep them. He had them temporarily and lost them. They just arent something he has all the time or uses now. They arent even listed in his bio, so its not a big factor in his arsenal. Otherwise they would have been included or mentioned\used more often in the comics.


Take for instance when he went to fight Hulk at the mansion. Cyttorak only teleported him if he pledged to do his bidding again. Juggs didnt just click his heels together 3 times wearing ruby red Cyttorak slippers....



Also, you left out the part about momentum being a huge factor. He cannot stop himself once going. Thats why he has crashed into lakes and things before. If he is shot into space, he wont be able to stop anytime soon or turn back around. So he can survive space without breathing. Yay for him. Still means jack shit if he cant stop or get back to the fight.


Here is another one for ya. If he is buried in rubble\rocks\concrete he wont just bust out instantly. It took him weeks to bust out of the concrete Spiderman tricked him into. It took a very long time for him to bust out of the mountain rubble that collapsed on him back when he first got his powers. He didnt have to eat of breathe but it took him years to get out of that.


There is no pause button and we dont break for snacks in this BZT. Juggs being incapacitated or unable to continue this fight in a timely manner means he loses. Goku wins by burying him or blasting his big red shiny ass into space.

 

[Bernkastel]

There is no pause button and we dont break for snacks in this BZT. Juggs being incapacitated or unable to continue this fight in a timely manner means he loses. Goku wins by burying him or blasting his big red shiny ass into space.

Burying him is unlikely considering that ki blasts really aren't that effective at burying someone, at least not if the user isn't trying. Plus Juggernaut's momentum would make that even more difficult considering that the blast would just bounce right off of him, and he'd plow through any terrain standing in his way. BFR is a cop out.

Goku would try hand to hand combat right away like he always does; what's to say that Juggernaut wouldn't just grab Goku and squeeze him to death while he's stunned that his punches had no effect?

 

[nightmare]

Burying him is unlikely considering that ki blasts really aren't that effective at burying someone, at least not if the user isn't trying.

I assume that you have seen fights in DBZ before. How many freaking times has someone been blown to crap right through mountains? Yeah, alot. How many times has someone attacked from above and drove a guy deep into the ground using blasts or punches\kicks? Yeah, alot also. They usually get out of the rubble by powering up or blasting their way out. 2 things that Juggs just simply cannot do. So how is something that happens often now deemed unlikely? Why wouldnt Goku try to do the same thing here?

Goku would try hand to hand combat right away like he always does; what's to say that Juggernaut wouldn't just grab Goku and squeeze him to death while he's stunned that his punches had no effect?

Whats to say he wont try that and fly back up to regroup like he always does? Whats to say Juggs wont be able to see\catch him because Goku is way faster than him? Juggernaut is a force and once he gets going forward is hard to stop. Having forward momentum that is difficult to stop is not the same as being fast at blocking attacks. He is a brute. Slow and lumbering. Once he gets going he is fast- at only going forward. He is not as agile or quick as Goku.


Oh, and then there is something like this:

Spoiler

Yeah, thats Hulk. Swinging him around till his helmet pops off and he goes crashing into a mountain. Goku is plenty strong enough to do that.

...and before you say it- "But Juggs wouldnt just let Goku do that". Well, do you think he just let Hulk do that? No. He did it because he can. Do you think Goku is just gonna stand on the ground in front of Juggernaut and let him charge? No.


Goku is smart enough to test him out or read his power level and then form a plan. He is quicker so he would try the hand to hand thing and realize that he cant hurt him like that. So then Goku tries out a few things and BAM! - no more Juggernaut.


Or how about this one. Goku angers him by being quicker and flying around blasting at him just trying to feel things out. Juggernaut tosses boulders at Goku and he dodges them and taunts Juggs- like this:

Spoiler

Then he chases after Goku with a full head of steam. Goku stays just one step ahead of him by flying and leads Juggernaut to take a dip in the ocean. Oh, yeah- Juggs cant swim, has no traction and sinks to the bottom of the ocean.



I have shown why your arguments are invalid. He cannot be stopped if he is hurled into space and he can\has been incapacitated under rubble. He cant reverse his momentum and it takes too long for him to climb out when buried under rocks and what not.

Goku wins.

 

[Bernkastel]

I assume that you have seen fights in DBZ before. How many freaking times has someone been blown to crap right through mountains? Yeah, alot. How many times has someone attacked from above and drove a guy deep into the ground using blasts or punches\kicks? Yeah, alot also. They usually get out of the rubble by powering up or blasting their way out. 2 things that Juggs just simply cannot do. So how is something that happens often now deemed unlikely? Why wouldnt Goku try to do the same thing here?

Way to forget that Juggernaut is impervious to physical attacks. Goku tries to punch him, it does nothing. An uncharged Kamehameha? Same thing. If neither Thor nor Hulk can't adequately hurt Juggernaut in close combat, then Goku wouldn't fare any better. And close combat is his specialty; his bread and butter. Without it, he'd have to regroup indefinitely.

Whats to say he wont try that and fly back up to regroup like he always does? Whats to say Juggs wont be able to see\catch him because Goku is way faster than him?

So you're saying that Goku would simply fly around and waste his energy? If he drops out of SSJ3, it would be that much harder for him to transform again.

Juggernaut is a force and once he gets going forward is hard to stop. Having forward momentum that is difficult to stop is not the same as being fast at blocking attacks. He is a brute. Slow and lumbering. Once he gets going he is fast- at only going forward. He is not as agile or quick as Goku.

None of his attacks are going to work on Juggernaut though. Vegeta managed to trap Goku using his ki to bound him so that he could humiliate him. Goku doesn't think, nor fight like that; trapping the Juggernaut would be the LAST thing on his mind.

Yeah, thats Hulk. Swinging him around till his helmet pops off and he goes crashing into a mountain. Goku is plenty strong enough to do that.

...and before you say it- "But Juggs wouldnt just let Goku do that". Well, do you think he just let Hulk do that? No. He did it because he can. Do you think Goku is just gonna stand on the ground in front of Juggernaut and let him charge?

Are you forgetting that both Hulk and Juggernaut are both physically much stronger than Goku? I'm not doubting that Goku could knock Juggernaut through a mountain, but only if Big Red let him do it. In a test of strength Goku would lose.

Goku is smart enough to test him out or read his power level and then form a plan. He is quicker so he would try the hand to hand thing and realize that he cant hurt him like that. So then Goku tries out a few things and BAM! - no more Juggernaut.

What "things?" Ki blasts wouldn't work, Kamehameha wouldn't work, Destructo Disc wouldn't work. If he's SSJ3, all he'd be doing would be wasting his energy.

I have shown why your arguments are invalid. He cannot be stopped if he is hurled into space and he can\has been incapacitated under rubble. He cant reverse his momentum and it takes too long for him to climb out when buried under rocks and what not.

And I've pointed out that Goku wouldn't try to trap the Juggernaut because that's not the way he likes to fight. He would likely take Juggernaut head on like he's done against all of his opponents, and he'd get caught, pummeled, and KO'ed.

 

[nightmare]

Way to forget that Juggernaut is impervious to physical attacks. Goku tries to punch him, it does nothing. An uncharged Kamehameha? Same thing.

Never said it would hurt him\kill him. Not once have I said that. I have pointed out many ways that he could dispose or incapacitate him. Those are 2 very different things.

If neither Thor nor Hulk can't adequately hurt Juggernaut in close combat, then Goku wouldn't fare any better. And close combat is his specialty; his bread and butter. Without it, he'd have to regroup indefinitely.

Taking a punch\attack without moving and being blasted backwards by the force of the attack are 2 different things. Again- Here are examples using the 2 guys you mentioned.

Spoiler

Its very possible to knock him backwards with an attack. Goku has the strength\power to do so.

So you're saying that Goku would simply fly around and waste his energy? If he drops out of SSJ3, it would be that much harder for him to transform again.

Never said he was attacking in SS3. He doesnt have to be that level to bounce around and attack at multiple angles- he does it every damn episode. Juggernaut isnt fast enough to keep up with his attacks like Cell\Buu, etc. That is the point. He realizes it isnt working and he puts some distance between him and his opponent- like he does in every damn episode, and comes up with another strategy.

None of his attacks are going to work on Juggernaut though. Vegeta managed to trap Goku using his ki to bound him so that he could humiliate him. Goku doesn't think, nor fight like that; trapping the Juggernaut would be the LAST thing on his mind.

He dont have to kill him, just stop him. Once again- he can do that.

Also, what would be on his mind is winning- at any cost. Juggernaut is a villain. Goku doesnt take kindly to evil guys trying to kill him. He will do anything necessary to stop him- like he always has.

Are you forgetting that both Hulk and Juggernaut are both physically much stronger than Goku? I'm not doubting that Goku could knock Juggernaut through a mountain, but only if Big Red let him do it. In a test of strength Goku would lose.

"only if he let him".... seriously? Thats weak bro.

And this is a fight, not a 'test of strength'. This isnt a MK test your might mini-game and this isnt a lock up hold in a wrestling match. Hell, its not even an arm wrestlng tournament. This is a battle and Goku can sense his power level. He will be attacking- not trying to lock up with him.

What "things?" Ki blasts wouldn't work, Kamehameha wouldn't work, Destructo Disc wouldn't work. If he's SSJ3, all he'd be doing would be wasting his energy.

Tell me again why blasting him into space wont work? Or how will blasting him into the ground\causing a mountain to collapse on him wont work? Again- he dont have to kill him, just take him out of the fight.



Goku will do whatever necessary to take a villain down. He always has. He thrives on battle, but what is most important is taking down his opponent- by any means necessary. Things that didnt stop the likes of Cell or Buu will be able to hold Juggernaut down for the count.

He can\has been sunk in water. He can\has been buried under rubble unable to return to action immediately. I havent seen him thrown into space, but that is possible considering his momentum will propel him until he collides with a planet or something.


Goku takes out The Juggernaut. He grabs a snack, takes a nap, trains with his son- then Juggernaut manages to break free. Too bad the tournament will be over by then.

And in that lovable innocent\clueless voice of his Goku says "Hey! I remember you. Didnt we fight once? You were pretty strong. What happened to you? Gosh that sure was a long time ago..."

 

[Bernkastel]

Never said it would hurt him\kill him. Not once have I said that. I have pointed out many ways that he could dispose or incapacitate him. Those are 2 very different things.

And I've demonstrated that his usual ki blasting/close combat fighting strategies won't work

Taking a punch\attack without moving and being blasted backwards by the force of the attack are 2 different things. Again- Here are examples using the 2 guys you mentioned.Its very possible to knock him backwards with an attack. Goku has the strength\power to do so.

But would that be enough to finish the Juggernaut? Not likely. A simple uncharged Kamehameha won't be enough to blast Juggernaut into orbit.

Never said he was attacking in SS3. He doesnt have to be that level to bounce around and attack at multiple angles- he does it every damn episode. Juggernaut isnt fast enough to keep up with his attacks like Cell\Buu, etc. That is the point. He realizes it isnt working and he puts some distance between him and his opponent- like he does in every damn episode, and comes up with another strategy.

Then you don't understand Goku. If he finds that his current level isn't strong enough, he'll go higher if he can. That's the way he's always fought. Let me give you the commentary...

Goku pounds Juggernaut as a SSJ2; it's not working....

Goku: "I see the strength of an ascended super saiyan is no match for you. Well try... thissssssssss wahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!" Super saiyan 3.

Only when he realizes that his blows as a SSJ3 are still having no affect will he resort to something else.

He dont have to kill him, just stop him. Once again- he can do that.

Before Juggernaut KO's his ass because he's too stubborn not to realize that close combat won't work? I think not. And you just conveniently ignored the example I showed of Juggernaut using mystical energy to subdue a much larger and stronger foe. Goku's speed won't save him from Juggernaut then, not when that attack has shown to have a range that covers a planet.

What proof do you have that even a full powered Kamehameha wave would even affect the Juggernaut enough to stop his momentum? If Frieza could deflect one of Goku's charged Kamehameha waves with physical strength...

Spoiler

Then surely Juggernaut, who's much stronger than Frieza, could do the same thing. The God Wave from Thor didn't work, and it's stronger than any Kamehameha that Goku's produced in the canon.

 

[JGlass]

Right now I'm leaning Juggernaut, but I don't see it being a sure thing and I could be swayed, albeit it would take a great deal of convincing.

This is an uphill battle for Goku, as I don't think any of his attacks would have what it takes to stop Juggernaut, especially if Juggernaut is already in motion. That said, I don't think Juggernaut's unstoppable nature is what's going to win him the fight here; I think it will be Juggernaut's raw strength that puts him over Goku.

Goku isn't going to immediately start the fight by powering up or flying into the sky and hitting Juggernaut with energy attacks. He's going to look at Juggernaut and say, "Hey, I've tangled with bigger foes and some of the universe's greatest fighters, this muscle head should be a piece of cake!" and he's going to go in for a fist fight.

Goku will throw a ferocious flurry of punches and kicks that Juggernaut won't be able to counter, but he won't need to. Juggernaut will be able to absorb all of those attacks with ease as he has against countless Marvel foes before launching his own attack. Eventually he'll get bored of Goku and counter him with one heavy punch, which I assume will send Goku flying backwards.

What happens next is what could decide the fight. If Goku gets up and flies away, he has a chance. If Juggernaut grabs Goku, it's over. Goku, while strong and durable, weighs a measly 137 pounds. He's fighting the Juggernaut, a man that can lift over 100 tons with relative ease. Juggernaut will toss Goku around like a ragdoll, and there's nothing Goku will be able to do about it. Jugs can finish Goku off a number of ways, most of which are very simple and will take no time, like breaking his back, squashing his head, or throwing him to the ground and curb stomping him.

But let's assume Goku does manage to fly away. His only hope here is to use his energy attacks. It's still highly unlikely that these attacks effect Juggernaut as he's immune to that type of offense as well. The only way those attacks work is if they are magic. I don't know how the Dragon Ball universe operates, but if Goku's arsenal of energy blasts are magical in nature (meaning they cannot be explained logically), then I think Goku stands a chance. It's a slim chance, but Juggernaut no longer has this match in the bag.

Still, I think it's unlikely in the first place that Goku makes it passed the opening skirmish. As strong and quick as he is, Juggernaut's pure strength and near-invulnerable nature make him the perfect counter to Goku. If Raditz could easily crush Goku's ribs (I found this out through minimal research), I have no reason to doubt that Juggernaut couldn't do the same.

Taking a punch\attack without moving and being blasted backwards by the force of the attack are 2 different things. Again- Here are examples using the 2 guys you mentioned.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Its very possible to knock him backwards with an attack. Goku has the strength\power to do so.[/quote]

Goku is not as strong as either Hulk or Thor. Goku's max out is 40 tons where as both Hulk and Thor can lift over 100 tons easily. Considering those are two of the only characters to ever land such a successful strike on Juggernaut, I think it's safe to assume it requires a strength level near or exceeding the ability to lift 100 tons.

Also, what would be on his mind is winning- at any cost. Juggernaut is a villain. Goku doesnt take kindly to evil guys trying to kill him. He will do anything necessary to stop him- like he always has.

Not before getting his ass handed to him the first few times.

Tell me again why blasting him into space wont work? Or how will blasting him into the ground\causing a mountain to collapse on him wont work? Again- he dont have to kill him, just take him out of the fight.

Blasting him into space seems unlikely. Juggernaut weighs 900 pounds, far heavier than anybody Goku has ever had to launch into space with one of his blasts. Collapsing a mountain on him probably wouldn't work either as Juggernaut is pretty much immune to physical pain and could escape the debris fairly easily. As I said, he can lift over 100 tons with ease.

 

[Steve0904]

I'm going to stick with the same arguments that I used last round because no one was able to disprove them, and considering that Juggernaut has better defensive feats than the Hulk that should play in his favor.

I think enough people were able to disprove your points considering enough people felt compelled to vote for Goku against Hulk, but I digress.

Try only a couple of minutes. SSJ3 Goku's fight against Kid Buu lasted only a few moments because he couldn't sustain the power of the transformation.

So I guess this all comes down to what you would consider a "fair amount" of his full power. This is why I said fair amount because I knew you would be all over it. I also don't understand why you don't seem to understand Goku's physical strength increases as an SSJ 3. Does it have to be spelled out for you? It's a natural progression.

Either way, if Juggernaut can lose via burying or drowning he's in trouble. I also don't think you're giving Goku enough credit when it comes to figuring out that hand to hand combat won't work in time. That's the point of Goku having a massive speed advantage. Even if he did go SSJ 3 and find out hand to hand combat wouldn't work, he'd be able to buy a load of time to figure out something else.

Oh, and this mystical energy attack. Actually yes, Goku's speed would still save him considering he could just transport to King Kai's planet like he did against Cell. I mean if we're talking about ripping holes in dimensions surely it's not a huge stretch to think there's a "next" dimension is it?

 

[Brother Love]

I'm going to be original and make my plea for Juggernaut in a way that not one person has done yet. I am going to appeal to you as an American.

Every year, millions of jobs are lost as companies either move overseas or outsource their work to third world countries to save a buck on cheap labor. The American car used to be a thing of pride for this country, but now we are importing cheaper cars at the cost of American workers. The computer revolution was started here, but now millions of computers are being imported every year made cheaper in other countries and costing American workers their jobs. Why is all this important?

It is important because everyone here is about to do this again. Goku is a Japanese anime superhero. He may be fast, he may be strong, but he is just like those cars and computers mentioned above. He's a cheaper version of an American classic.
Juggernaut is American made, made for Americans by Americans. Unfortunately the title of top superhero is in danger of being outsourced and another American classic is in danger of being replaced by a low budget import.

There isn't much we can do as individuals to stop the exporting of jobs to other countries. There isn't much we can do as individuals to stop the outsourcing of our jobs to their world nations. But there is One small thing we can do on this tiny forum. We can stand up, we can stand together and say with one voice that we will NOT import any more superheroes. We can stand up and say we will not outsource the title of top superhero to another country. We can stand up, we can stand together and say with one voice and say we will make a difference.

A vote for Juggernaut is a vote for America.
Do you patriotic duty, do what is right for your fellow man, and do what's right for America.
Vote for Juggernaut.​

 

[Jack-Hammer]

While I went with Hulk over Goku last round, it doesn't bother me to see him advance. He's someone with the power to possibly put down the Hulk so I can see a good argument for either guy.

Against the Juggernaut..I dunno. Truth is, I'm not at all convinced that Goku can even hurt him. Juggernaut is someone that's gone head to head a lot with guys like Thor and the Hulk, most of the time without a definitive winner. Usually, the fights are interrupted or there are some sort of special circumstances in which the characters aren't at their peak.

Goku is the better hand to hand fighter and his energy powers are awesome. As I said, however, I'm not convinced that he can even hurt the Juggernaut. Juggernaut is routinely thought of as one of the physically most powerful comic book characters. His strength is on par with that of guys like Thor & the Hulk, he has literally inexhaustible stamina, he doesn't need to eat, sleep, drink or even breath, his body is almost completely invulnerable to injury and he can heal almost instantly if he does somehow manage to sustain injury.

I'm not saying that Goku wouldn't be a challenge. A being with his powers and skill set would be a challenge for most any character. When it comes to strength, stamina and durability; Juggernaut has the edge. Goku is the faster of the two, the more skilled fighter and can project vast amounts of destructive energy.

In the comics, the Juggernaut has withstood the power of energy blasts from beings like Thor & the Silver Surfer. I see no reason why Goku would be any different.

 

[nightmare]

And I've demonstrated that his usual ki blasting/close combat fighting strategies won't work

Wont work how? To kill him? Correct. I never said it would. I have said it is possible to send him reeling with such various attacks. Reeling enough to put him in a very bad position. We agree on the fact it wont make him bleed\damage\kill him, but you are missing my foint or choosing to ignore it.

But would that be enough to finish the Juggernaut? Not likely. A simple uncharged Kamehameha won't be enough to blast Juggernaut into orbit.

You are the only one saying un-charged. Do you now know for a fact Goku wont use that? If he finds one thing doesnt get the job done, he pulls out a more powerful attack. He would do the same here. He charges it up, appears behind him and WHAM!- off he goes. To the moon Alice...

Then you don't understand Goku. If he finds that his current level isn't strong enough, he'll go higher if he can. That's the way he's always fought. Let me give you the commentary...

Goku pounds Juggernaut as a SSJ2; it's not working....

Goku: "I see the strength of an ascended super saiyan is no match for you. Well try... thissssssssss wahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!" Super saiyan 3.

Only when he realizes that his blows as a SSJ3 are still having no affect will he resort to something else.

My point was he doesnt have to be at a certain power level to have greater attack speed than Juggernaut. The fact you are playing dumb or just dont really understand the power of Goku is silly. Plus here we are again, saying the exact same thing. I said he would use speed to try and hit him, then fly off and regroup to find a different plan. You argued my point- by saying the exact same thing. The exact same thing.


.... one more thing before I move on....

Before Juggernaut KO's his ass because he's too stubborn not to realize that close combat won't work? I think not. And you just conveniently ignored the example I showed of Juggernaut using mystical energy to subdue a much larger and stronger foe. Goku's speed won't save him from Juggernaut then, not when that attack has shown to have a range that covers a planet.

Didnt you just agree with me that Goku would try that and then fly away to regroup? How is that being stubborn an not realizing- if that is exactly what we both agreed would happen?


Also Im not ignoring your 'magical attack' theory. I addressed it earlier. Its not a power he originally had or has now. Not listed in the bio. Its not a staple of his aresenal prevalent enough to be mentioned in various bio's. It was a very temporary thing.

That is somewhat off the page like arguing Stark would just carry around Hulkbuster armor everwhere because he happened to use it once\twice before. Or like saying Xavier could use his legs to run around. He once had use of them, but doesnt now and wouldnt likely use it here. Same goes for Juggernaut.

Right now I'm leaning Juggernaut, but I don't see it being a sure thing and I could be swayed, albeit it would take a great deal of convincing.

Hey homie. Hows it hanging?

Goku isn't going to immediately start the fight by powering up or flying into the sky and hitting Juggernaut with energy attacks. He's going to look at Juggernaut and say, "Hey, I've tangled with bigger foes and some of the universe's greatest fighters, this muscle head should be a piece of cake!" and he's going to go in for a fist fight.

Yes. Thats exactly what he would do. Good, we are all in agreement. Now,....

Goku will throw a ferocious flurry of punches and kicks that Juggernaut won't be able to counter, but he won't need to. Juggernaut will be able to absorb all of those attacks with ease as he has against countless Marvel foes before launching his own attack. Eventually he'll get bored of Goku and counter him with one heavy punch, which I assume will send Goku flying backwards.

Thats a big 'if' in my book. If he can connect with Goku. Here is an example of a very fast and agile character running circles around Juggernaut.

Spoiler

Now both Spidey and Beast are quicker than Juggernaut, though not as strong. Goku is much, much faster than those two and a hell of alot stronger. Juggernaut is not going to catch Goku.

But let's assume Goku does manage to fly away. His only hope here is to use his energy attacks. It's still highly unlikely that these attacks effect Juggernaut as he's immune to that type of offense as well. The only way those attacks work is if they are magic.

They arent magical in nature. Energy based. They wont kill him, but they sure as hell will blast him backwards, into the ground or in the air. His fists\feet may not be powerful enough to knock him down, but his blasts most definately are.

Collapsing a mountain on him probably wouldn't work either as Juggernaut is pretty much immune to physical pain and could escape the debris fairly easily. As I said, he can lift over 100 tons with ease.

It has happened. Showed a pic earlier and it took him a while to get out from under it. If he got buried in the ground or under a collapsed mountain he would survive, but it would take a long time to climb out. Only reason he got out of the concrete Spidey put him in was because he flexed his muscles over and over for weeks until he broke free.

Also he sinks in water. Beast (and someone else during another time) used his momentum against himself and he sunk like a rock till he hit the bottom. Took him a while to get back up to the surface.


It is very possible to incapacitate him given the skills\powers Goku has. He doesnt have to kill him here. If he is unable to continue in a timely manner- Juggernaut loses.

A vote for Juggernaut is a vote for America.
Do you patriotic duty, do what is right for your fellow man, and do what's right for America.
Vote for Juggernaut.​

Your dumb.

I assume you have taken everything out of your house that isnt 'Made in America'? Whats left? A can opener and some pencils? I assume you are typing that on your original Macintosh box computer...

...yeah didnt think so.

 

[JGlass]

Thats a big 'if' in my book. If he can connect with Goku. Here is an example of a very fast and agile character running circles around Juggernaut.

Spoiler

Half of those are broken, so I can't tell what's going on, but one of those is Spider-Man and Colossus in Juggernaut's armor, so nice try.

Now both Spidey and Beast are quicker than Juggernaut, though not as strong. Goku is much, much faster than those two and a hell of alot stronger. Juggernaut is not going to catch Goku.

It's not about speed, it's about fighting style and reaction time. Every Dragon Ball Z fight I've ever seen involves the combatants standing/floating right in front of each other and throwing punches and kicks. Spider-Man and Beast are all about movement and not staying in the same position very long (though Beast rarely gets in drawn out fights, he's usually strong/sneaky enough to land stealth takedowns), and this style gives them the edge on Juggernaut. Goku doesn't use that style. He's used to blocking/parrying strikes, not dodging them, and he's going to be in for an unpleasant surprise when he's unable to deflect a Juggernaut punch.

They arent magical in nature. Energy based. They wont kill him, but they sure as hell will blast him backwards, into the ground or in the air. His fists\feet may not be powerful enough to knock him down, but his blasts most definately are.

Debatable. As I pointed out Juggernaut weighs much more than anyone Goku has ever faced, but we'll see.

It has happened. Showed a pic earlier and it took him a while to get out from under it. If he got buried in the ground or under a collapsed mountain he would survive, but it would take a long time to climb out. Only reason he got out of the concrete Spidey put him in was because he flexed his muscles over and over for weeks until he broke free.

Also he sinks in water. Beast (and someone else during another time) used his momentum against himself and he sunk like a rock till he hit the bottom. Took him a while to get back up to the surface.

Fair enough, but I don't think Goku gets the chance to do that.

It is very possible to incapacitate him given the skills\powers Goku has. He doesnt have to kill him here. If he is unable to continue in a timely manner- Juggernaut loses.

Hey man, you're reciting the rules to the guy in charge here. I understand Goku only has to take Juggernaut out of the fight to win, but I don't think he can do that. His fighting style is going to put him in a ton of danger right off the bat, and his attacks aren't going to be able to do anything to Juggernaut, especially if Jugs starts running.

Your dumb.

Ouch.

 

[nightmare]

Half of those are broken, so I can't tell what's going on, but one of those is Spider-Man and Colossus in Juggernaut's armor, so nice try.

Not sure what is happening on your end. Links look solid.

They just show agility and speed by them bouncing around. The first one I admit is somewhat of a half truth- but given the strength\powers the bands give him and the speed\agility of Spiderman it is kind of relevant. The others are of Marko himself against Beast and Spidey.

It's not about speed, it's about fighting style and reaction time. Every Dragon Ball Z fight I've ever seen involves the combatants standing/floating right in front of each other and throwing punches and kicks. Spider-Man and Beast are all about movement and not staying in the same position very long (though Beast rarely gets in drawn out fights, he's usually strong/sneaky enough to land stealth takedowns), and this style gives them the edge on Juggernaut. Goku doesn't use that style. He's used to blocking/parrying strikes, not dodging them, and he's going to be in for an unpleasant surprise when he's unable to deflect a Juggernaut punch.

They do that alot so Im not gonna fight that, but what I was going for is where they appear from nowhere at different angles. Not so much the blocking\countering thing. Goku has taken some pretty hard shots and still gotten up. I dont think a shot from Juggernaut will end his fight.

Debatable. As I pointed out Juggernaut weighs much more than anyone Goku has ever faced, but we'll see.

Agree to disagree then.

Hey man, you're reciting the rules to the guy in charge here. I understand Goku only has to take Juggernaut out of the fight to win, but I don't think he can do that. His fighting style is going to put him in a ton of danger right off the bat, and his attacks aren't going to be able to do anything to Juggernaut, especially if Jugs starts running.

He has been in danger plenty of times. By guys who destroy planets for fun. I just see it going a different way than you do. Juggernaut can be buried a few easy ways by Goku. His momentum can be a bad thing as well as good. So its possible.

Ouch.

Yeah, that stung a bit. Spell check can bite you in the ass sometimes when not used.

 

[Steve0904]

Goku is not the type to get cocky, and take Juggs for granted by saying he's fought some of the best fighters in the universe, and calling Juggs a muscle head. Sounds more like something Vegeta would say. I also think Goku is a smarter fighter than he's sometimes given credit for due to his nature. If he sees a guy in a load of body armour I'm not sure he just flies in to attack him. I think we can agree that Vegeta's body armour is not on the level of a Juggernaut so Goku may be more careful especially if it looks more visibly imposing.

As I said before, he outsmarted Cell, who had everybody elses DNA inside of him. He's also outsmarted Yakkon and Pikkon. He had quite a fight with Pikkon before he found a weakness in his signature attack, and he allowed Yakkon to eat his energy and blow himself up. Neither of those guys are Juggernaut, but my point is that Goku hasn't always been the strongest. He's won on smarts before. I just can't bring myself to look at this as a one punch KO sort of fight. Juggernaut is ridiculously strong obviously, but I'm not sure Goku's ever been knocked out by one punch before. Also, I hate to do this to you nightmare because I just repped you, and laughed my ass off at the ending of your post, not to mention that I agree with you, but it's "you're" dumb not "your" dumb. When you're trying to call someone else dumb you best be careful. I see JGlass has beaten me to it.

 

[El Rev sXe]

Last round was really difficult for Goku, this one isn't going any other way.

Juggernaut basically cannot be stopped, he will not feel tired at any point in the battle.Goku on the other while being the strongest sayain in the DBZ universe, he can still get tired and therefore get weak.

Like Jack-Hammer said it correctly, at first Goku would try to go mano a mano against Juggernaut, obviously a bad idea.This would go on for a while between punching him, kicking, throwing at him some of his best techniques (kamehameha) etc. Granted, none of this would make even tingle Juggernaut and he would beat the crap out of Goku, however this way Goku would know the kind of opponent that he is facing this time.

This is how I see it going: Goku (like many times before with Vegeta, Frieza, kid Bu etc) would know that he can't defeat Juggernaut, this means there's only one solution, the Genkidama (or spirit bomd, soul bomb or whatever its name is in english). Goku can't overcome Juggenaut for enough time for him to have all the necessary energy to make the Genkidama, but there are two big flaws in Juggernaut that Goku can take advantage. 1. Juggernaut is based on his eyes, he cannot feel ki and number 2, he can't fly.

This is where it all goes down, Goku would make the technique (I don't remember the name) where he blinds his opponent. This way he would gain a little time, flying away or really high where Juggernaut cannot see him nor sense his ki (since he doesn't have that ability), Goku charges the Genkidama, throws it at him and Goku becomes this year's BZT champion

 

[Remix]

Here's the thing about winning this fight. Goku doesn't need to stop Juggernaut. He couldn't if he wanted to anyway. He needs to do the exact opposite. Once Goku works out that Juggernaut can't be stopped (probably when he announces that) Goku needs to fly up high enough to force Juggernaut to jump into the sky (ala Hulk). From there Goku can grab him, and accelerate him to the point where he's in orbit around the planet. The newly created Juggermoon has no ability to stop himself and Goku wins via incapacitation. Juggermoon fumes but can't do shit.

Goku could do the same thing with a Kamehameha wave, except blasting him off into space, rather than orbit.