How should final boss battles be done?

[Blade]

When we're only hours into a game, we can tell who the final boss is going to be, unless there's some insane twist in the end that causes someone you never expected to be fighting to be the final boss. But usually, the last boss is usually pretty obvious. In Zelda, you know you'll probably be facing Ganon. In Mario, you know you'll probably be facing Bowser. In Sonic, it'll probably be Robotnik.

But I've found that there's only 2 types of final boss battles. Ones where you get the shit kicked out of you a few times before you think of a strategy and finally get closer and closer to beating him until you finally beat him. And then there's the boss battles where it's mildly challenging but you beat him the first time or, at most, the second time.

Now, let me give you an example of both.

At the moment I'm playing my way through Dragon Age. As anyone who's played even a few hours of the game knows the last boss is the ArchDemon, a big dragon fucker who offs your party in the space of two minutes during your first fight with him. I've spent about 3 combined hours trying to defeat him, using various strategies and even consulting a walkthrough guide for help (yes, I'm ashamed). But he is one tough fucker and I'm not sure if I'll ever beat him.

But on the other end of the spectrum is Ganon from Ocarina of Time. The battle takes maybe a couple of minutes where you roll around and slash his tail for a bit before shoving your sword in his face. It's all very quick and 99% of people finish him the first time they fight him.

So which is better? Should the final boss be the toughest enemy in the whole game, or does that cause an anti climax? Does it matter how difficult the final boss it as long as it's exciting and keeps you interested until the very end?

The answer, for me, is the latter every time. I've used the Dragon Age example, and because of that boss I'm kind of turned off the game. Maybe I'll return and finish it someday, but at the moment I'm completely burned out over it.

But when there's been not difficult but exciting bosses, it's been such a better experience. Ganon in OoT, Malek in KOTOR, Seren in Mass Effect, none of them were difficult, but they kept me hooked. Here's the thing, people usually get totally addicted and immersed in a game the closer it gets to the end. The story sucks you in and you want to know what happens. With those games I mentioned above, when I got to the end I'd been playing a 4 or 5 hour session because I knew I was near the end and I just couldn't turn it off. But with Dragon Age, I had my long session where I got more and more excited as I got to the end only to get my ass handed to me by the ArchDemon. It was like running face first into a brick wall and it pissed me off. So I'll say it now; Final bosses should never be very difficult.

What do you guys think?

 

[Dagger Dias]

I think that the perfect style for a final boss (or final string of bosses, when going by this example) is the one used in Final Fantasy 7. You had to face multiple forms of Sephiroth, first Bizarro and then Safer Sephiroth. The first form should be the simplest of the bunch, then followed perhaps by a more difficult one (or two more difficult ones), followed by the final form which is the toughest form of the boss.

HOWEVER.... that should not be where it ends. The "true" final boss should be a scripted win where it is nearly impossible to lose, once again, like how Final Fantasy 7 did it. It's a great way to give the gamer a sense of accomplishment because they just finished a really tough battle against multiple forms of the same boss, but then REALLY did major damage to them in the scripted win during the last "battle" if those can really be called that.

The final condition is that the final boss should NEVER be the toughest battle. Ever. The toughest battle in any game (including games that aren't RPG's!) should be an optional battle unlocked towards the end of the game against an opponent that only someone who has mastered the game could hope to defeat, then they truly earn bragging rights. Final Fantasy does it right in this part too with their infamous optional "weapon" bosses from FF7 onward.

Awesome thread, Blade, and I look forward to seeing everyone else's thoughts on this.

 

[Dave]

Yeah, I have to admit that the best experience of how a boss battle should be done is indeed Final Fantasy 7. It is both the hardest and most enjoyable boss I have ever beaten and I will always remember how overjoyed I was when I finally got the better of him. I think that is the best way to do a boss battle. It was challenging and was a fitting end to a game that was challenging throughout. Although it took me hundreds of times to actually get through the final boss battle of Final Fantasy 7, I had the feeling that I had accomplished something. Personally, I don't think that feeling of accomplishment should be taken away from a game. I think it makes it worthwhile and it a game has a very easy finish, I think it takes away from the experience and would leave me feeling very underwhelmed.

A great example of this is Final Fantasy X. Once you had beaten Sin, who should have been the final boss, you have another boss to face that you literally cannot lose against. It bugged me slightly that you had been working hard to beat Sin only to get a shitty boss after it that you literally could not lose against. It annoyed me slightly but it was still an enjoyable experience and I don't even consider the "final" boss in Final Fantasy X to be the last one. It is just a formality and this only reiterates the fact that I like to be challenged in a final boss battle.

 

[ABMorales787]

When I play a game, the final boss ahs to be a big challenge for me. Its what I worked for. A final boss battle should never be easy. If that's the case, then where's the pay off in beating the game? Its like Soul Reaver 2. You face a lot of complicated puzzle and some heavy boss battles and in the end, your last task is to kill your past self. You completely overpower him and you can't even take damage. What was that? To further the story for the next game? What the hell!? I'm paying for this one, not the next one.

A final boss should always be the toughest challenge. Its what you worked for.

 

[Phoenix]

For me, the final boss battle is the one that has been built up to, based on your skills and abilities. It has to be challenge, non anti-climatic and has to make points of what you've learned throughout the game.

Example One - Pokémon

You have to face off against the Elite Four and the Current Champion whilst only having the current supplies and Pokémon on hand. Now this is a mix of endurance and with. You've beaten 8 bosses and trainers before, so you will have experience at what the first four throw out followed by what the champion has left.

This is a good one because it makes you learn from your previous battles and try to come up with the ultimate team to win. It's making good choices and seeing them pay off.

Example Two - Zelda

Now this based on Twilight Princess (the only game I've played), but this battle is done in stages. Testing out your ability so you can make use of the battle while not throwing out too much to make a clusterfuck. Zelda was done over 5 stages that use all of your abilities to the max, sword play, wolf mode, horse riding. But also it tests your timing ability to defeat Ganondorf, this is what would be perfecting your skills to outlast him completely.

Example Three - Mario

This is essentually facing the same boss each time but adding a new challenge element each time. This goes for the original Mario with the Bowser battle to the point where he's spouting fire like no tomorrow and throwing axes. In Mario 64/Galaxy, it was the same battle situation, except an element changed, like in 64, the Second Battle was on a unstable flipping board whilst the third battle make the final shot you needed more difficult as Bowser has upgraded his power. It was pretty much the same for Galaxy.

In Mario Bros. Wii, you essentially have 20 boss battles. Half of them are in the same situation, just a different Bower kid with a different attack whilst the other half is with another hard element like moving floors or fire that doesn't go away. The nice twist was that while the final battle was same as normal, there was the added extra of another challenge, that the battle was far from done and it did make things more difficult which was what I liked, that the battle seemed easy at first, but a twist occurs.

In the end, I like a boss battle that tests your abilities, is a challenge but not too long, adds some extra twists that the previous battles didn't give. But my main key point is that it has to give the sense of closure, the fact you completed the game from this battle has to feel satisfying, if the final boss battle doesn't do that, then the game fails.

 

[Dagger Dias]

[QUOTE="The Kill Joy" Robert Morales;1712421]
A final boss should always be the toughest challenge. Its what you worked for.[/QUOTE]

I disagree there. Yes, the final boss should be a challenge, absolutely. However, they should NEVER be the hardest battle in a game. The hardest battle should be an optional battle against an enemy so tough that only someone who has completely mastered the game would be able to defeat them.

I think the final boss should be the 3rd or 4th hardest boss in the game. An optional nearly impossible boss should always be the toughest, then one or two really tough required bosses, then the final boss (assuming there are several other bosses in the game, 10+ or so.) because that way he/she/it is still VERY tough, without being THE toughest. Look at it this way.... Any boss who is tougher than the final boss (optional or not) instantly gets a rub and is remembered by the gamer for the hard work they had to put in to get past that boss. That's how I see it anyway.

 

[ABMorales787]

I disagree there. Yes, the final boss should be a challenge, absolutely. However, they should NEVER be the hardest battle in a game. The hardest battle should be an optional battle against an enemy so tough that only someone who has completely mastered the game would be able to defeat them.

I think the final boss should be the 3rd or 4th hardest boss in the game. An optional nearly impossible boss should always be the toughest, then one or two really tough required bosses, then the final boss (assuming there are several other bosses in the game, 10+ or so.) because that way he/she/it is still VERY tough, without being THE toughest. Look at it this way.... Any boss who is tougher than the final boss (optional or not) instantly gets a rub and is remembered by the gamer for the hard work they had to put in to get past that boss. That's how I see it anyway.

I see where your coming from here, but that only works in RPG games. You can't hide a secret boss in Ocarina Of Time or Super Metroid.

The final boss is what all gamers look for in a game. This includes casual gamers. There are some instances where there's secrets after you beat it. But the end boss is what makes the plot of the game go around. An example that mixes what you think with my idea has to be Megaman EXE 4. Once you beat the end boss, Duo, you head to find everything in the game. Its optional. The story is over at this point. You discover Bass. You have to beat him in under 30 seconds to get the reward you're looking for. By the time you beat him, you should have evrything. What now? Go fight the end boss again. He got an upgrade. He's tougher than ever.

 

[Trill Co$by]

I think DBZ games have a great way of making you feel like shit when it comes to getting your ass kicked over and over...

And personally, I love those bosses. I love it when I'm back against the rope and have to do all the god damn blocking I possibly can and still end up losing a few thousand times. Sure, it's aggrevating, but it's also challenging. And when you finally do beat that boss, you have that big sense of accomplishment like you actually did something.

You know like when you defeat DiBiase and Rhodes in 2010, for Orton's RTWM it's like this...

*Player hits RKO, 1...2...3!*
*Player throws controller on ground*
Player: "YEAH MOTHER FUCKER! WHAT NOW! I SO TOTALLY PWNED YOUR ASS! EAT THAT RKO!!!!!"

 

[Dagger Dias]

[QUOTE="The Kill Joy" Robert Morales;1714973] I see where your coming from here, but that only works in RPG games. You can't hide a secret boss in Ocarina Of Time or Super Metroid. [/QUOTE]

Actually, that's a lot more possible than you might think. In games like Zelda or Metroid that rely on action.... an optional super-boss can still be put in towards the end. I'll use both of the games you listed as examples.

Super Metroid. Once you defeat Ridley and go into that room where the statues break every time you clear an area, the final statue breaks like usual.... revealing a second new room other than the one leading to the final area, this new room leads to the path to where the new super-boss lives. When you reach him, he could go through gimmick changes resembling all the previous bosses one after another: Spore Spawn, Kraid, Crocomire, Phantoon, Botwoon, Draygon, Golden Torizo, Ridley, and have the last form be a huge Metroid or something. I think that would be an awesome boss. (Or just the 4 main bosses if lack of memory becomes an issue) Either that or one that requires use of every single item somehow, make him so powerful that it'd make you run out of missiles and power bombs to finish him off.

Ocarina of Time. Or any other Zelda game for that matter. Make it to where he goes through multiple forms, each one is weak against a different item. That way you can't defeat him unless you have collected all the items, and it would provide a cool challenge too. Have it be a spirit of an ancient warrior that wants to test you or something.

I think those boss ideas could have been great additions to either game, and would be MUCH tougher than the final bosses. Only those that mastered the game would be able to beat them. I think it'd be great.

[QUOTE="The Kill Joy" Robert Morales;1714973] The final boss is what all gamers look for in a game. This includes casual gamers. There are some instances where there's secrets after you beat it. But the end boss is what makes the plot of the game go around. An example that mixes what you think with my idea has to be Megaman EXE 4. Once you beat the end boss, Duo, you head to find everything in the game. Its optional. The story is over at this point. You discover Bass. You have to beat him in under 30 seconds to get the reward you're looking for. By the time you beat him, you should have evrything. What now? Go fight the end boss again. He got an upgrade. He's tougher than ever. [/QUOTE]

Yeah, Star Ocean 2 did something like that too. A sidequest unlocked an insanely powerful version of the final boss that was nearly impossible to kill unless you were at maxed out levels. That's the type of "final boss should be the most powerful enemy" example that I agree with. My key argument is that the hardest challenge from a game should always be an optional one, that only those who want to know they are the best would dare to try.

Final bosses SHOULD be hard. (disregarding scripted victories like Krelian in Xenogears or Sephiroth in FF7.... I mean the last actual fight you can get game over in) The generally accepted standard though, is that an optional challenge should remain that's tougher than the final boss. I'm perfectly fine with the last boss being the 2nd or 3rd toughest, that should be expected.

You gotta admit with my point in my last post though, any boss (optional or not) who is tougher than the final boss of that game, instantly gets a rub and will be more remembered by gamers in the long run. Hatred towards said boss as a kid turns into nostalgia as an adult. For example.... Slash from Turtles in Time. He was the hardest boss in the game, but was around the middle of the game. I remember him more than any other boss in the game because of how hard he was when I was little.

 

[Dr. Stinger A. Zoidberg]

A good example I would like to bring up are all the old Megaman Battle Network games. These games had a great storyline going for them, challenging, yet fun. But once you reached the final boss(Especially in the earlier games) It was easy as shit. So easy, you can beat them on your first try even without knowing that specific point in time you have to hit them to hurt them.

I feel a final boss should be more challenging than every other boss in the game, yet not so hard that he's impossible to beat ALA, Megaman Battle Network 3. I also feel that a boss battle should have some pretty bad-ass music along with it. Take the final battle with Gary in the original Pokemon games, or A battle with Buu or Cell or Frieza or Omega Shenron like in the various Dragonball Z/GT games. All in all, A boss should be fun, yet challenging.

 

[Mr. TM]

I love a boss match where you fight him originally at the beginning of the game, and then you also fight him at the very end of the game. That way you get a development throughout the game, in an enclosed storyline. You can see it with such games as the original pokemon. Althought you know the bad guys are Team Rocket, and you beat them at Giovanni, and you know the ultimate success is beating the Elite Four, there is still that one final boss from the beginning you need to fight against. His name is Gary, the guy you also had your first match with.

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

I personally think that all final bosses should be done in multiple stages.

Take the Devil May Cry series for example (i've only played 1 and 4 but i imagine the patterns are the same) In DMC, you have like 3 or 4 bosses throughout the game that you have to face multiple times during the course of the game, and when you get to the final stage, you have to face all of them in a freakin' gautlet, BEFORE you ACTUALLY fight the only guy you've yet to throw down with. Plus in both examples of the game, you end up fighting a gigantic demon who can squash you or incinerate you with ease, and IF you survive that, you then have to throw down with him in some other form.

In DMC 1 you fought in space against whatever the main villains name is, and then you crash on some asteroid and he remains in the centre while you now have to run because your demon power runs out.

In DMC 4 you run around a bunch of floating rubble attacking a possessed statue, and when you defeat that you get to go in and fight the Priest with unholy demon abilities and so on and so forth.

Then you have it in the DBZ fighting games where you just fight the fights in the order they are supposed to be played in, with the characters who fought that guy in the cartoon. So for example, you may play as Piccollo, Teen Gohan and (Rage) Krillin, to take on Frieza in his 3rd transformation, knowing full well you're going to get your ass handed to repeatedly before you ever come close to winning.

And then there are massive let downs like Batman Arkham Asylum or Metal Gear Solid 4. A fist fight with Ocelot is not a suitable final boss for the final chapter of the ENTIRE Metal Gear series, especially as we also had to crawl through a hot corridor for 5 minutes, and that was after 5 minutes of the ghost of Psycho-Mantis talking about the wonders of the PS3. I ALREADY BOUGHT THE FUCKIN' THING DIDN'T I? YOU DON'T NEED TO TRY AND CONVINCE ME AT THIS STAGE DO YA? *****!

Shooting Joker in the back with the grapple gun, pulling him off, and punching him 3 times is NOT a suitable final boss for Batman Arkham Asylum, especially as it's near enough exactly the saem as fighting Bane of any of the Titan Guards. TBH, none of the bosses were very inspiring in that game, it was all Batarang, evade, attack, repeat with EVERY boss. Hopefully they'll be able to do more in the sequel, especially as it's in Gotham City this time.

Or Earthworm Jim 2 where the entire premise of the game is to catch Psycrow before he can hurt the Princess, only to find out that you never fight Psycrow in the game at all, except in sub-games. LAME!

And then there's the added bonus stage stuff you can do in other games, notably Sonic the Hedgehog. Depending on whether you collected all the chaos emeralds in certain games, determined whether you'd go on to fight additional stages.

For example, if you played Sonic 3 with the Sonic and Knuckles expansion, you had the opportunity to collect the Hyper emeralds. Collecting them all allowed you to progress further than 'Super Sonic/Knuckles' and become 'Hyper Sonic/Knuckles', where you were even faster than Super Sonic, and your rings counted down slower. Anyway, doing that meant that after the Death Egg explodes at the end of the game, you are then transported into space where Doctor Robotnik was able to launch the central core out of the Death Egg and is still attacking Earth, so it's upto you to fly through space and stop him and out that game behind you.

Then later in Sonic 3D they did it again. Failure to collect all the Chaos emeralds resulted in the game just ending, and collecting them resulted in having to face an even bigger, badder boss than the standard one.

I don't think the final boss HAS to be the hardest challenge in a game, but it should definitely be a real challenge, and not a total cop out like some are.