Loser's Bracket #23: Mitch -vs- hatehabsforever

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D-Man

Gone but never forgotten.
Should the WWE bring back hardcore wrestling?

This is a third round, Loser's Bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

Mitch won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

There is no maximum amount of posts for debaters in this round. Debaters can create unlimited replies until the allotted time of the debate runs out.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Saturday at 10pm EST.

Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

Good luck to the participants.
 
I'll be choosing the side of the debate I want to argue, and I will say NO, WWE should NOT bring back hardcore wrestling.
 

For those of us who have been avid followers of professional wrestling for an extended period of time, we all clearly remember One Night Stand on June 12, 2005, and specifically, we are well aware of the response received by the Sandman as he entered the Hammerstein Ballroom for this PPV. There's no denying, based upon this video evidence, that hardcore wrestling has a particular appeal to a specific niche audience, a subsection of the WWE Universe that often goes unrecognized and unfulfilled. Throughout this debate, I will argue that the WWE should bring back hardcore wrestling, at least to some degree. I shall now proceed to tell you why this is the case.

[size=+2] Audience Variability [/size]

Professional wrestlers come in a wide variety of sizes, shapes, styles, and fashions. Mention professional wrestling to some people, and what they mentally picture is this:

I-Love-Cena-john-cena-28898136-334-368.jpg

If you approach some other pro wrestling fan, they perceive wrestling more along these lines:

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Others still would view it more like so:

macho-man-randy-savage.jpg

Point being, professional wrestling means so many different things to so many different people. No one is in a position to say whose perception of professional wrestling is any better than anyone else's. And bearing this in mind, there's no denying that for a particular niche of the professional wrestling fans, their viewpoint of wrestling is this:


Because there is this undeniable appeal amongst the fan base of professional wrestling, I think I would be beneficial for the WWE to reach out and to try to capitalize upon it. As such, I think there is a place for hardcore wrestling in WWE today, and for this reason, WWE should definitely bring it back.

[size=+2] Hardcore Legends [/size]

There are several professional wrestlers who can only be aptly described as legends. We all know who they are:

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These guys are all considered legends in the professional wrestling business because of the style of wrestling they exhibited over their respective careers. The very fact that they have enjoyed the longevity in their careers that they have is proof positive of the appeal of hardcore wrestling amongst a subsection of the professional wrestling fan base. And I believe that the WWE, if they were to execute it properly, could exploit this appeal to bring about a rebirth of sorts of hardcore wrestling.

That's not to necessarily say that they need to go hog wild with the hardcore style. There's no need to try to reincarnate ECW. There's no need to have an entire brand of wrestling dedicated to this genre. But there's no reason why WWE could not reintroduce a hardcore wrestling component to their pre existing programming.

On a typical episode of RAW, there are typically segments which are, of course, focused upon the guys in the main event. Likewise, there are periods of time which feature the talent in the upper mid card as they search for the next main event guy. But over and above this, there are promo segments, there are comedy skits, and there are diva segments which comprise a regular component of regular WWE programming. So why not add a hardcore segment? Not as the focal point of the show, or certainly not as an entire show unto itself, but just a segment, a small portion of the show geared to reaching out to the percentage of he audience who still enjoys it?

[size=+2] Gore Sells [/size]

Maybe this is a sad commentary about our society, but there's no denying the fact that gore sells. No less than seven movies were made revolving around this dude:

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For those of us who are NHL enthusiasts, look at the ratings surge surrounding this season's playoffs. Why? Violence is at an all time high, and the fans are loving it.

What is one common complaint amongst the IWC regarding the current WWE product? No blood. There are those amongst us who still want the violence, the shock value, and providing a hardcore component can address this, at least to some degree.

Look at the manner in which this match is still revered today:


The epitome of violence, unseen today. I'm not suggesting that a match of this nature can or should happen today. I'm simply illustrating that there is a demand for action of this nature, and hardcore wrestling, if provided properly today, can satiate this need.

[size=+2] Size of Roster [/size]

If one were to look at the size of the current WWE roster, it quickly becomes apparent that there are far too many guys to feature amongst their regular TV programming. If the WWE continues to stick to the status quo only with regards to the style of wrestling presented, guys like Tyler Reks are simply never going to be featured on television. How better to try to find a diamond in the rough than to begin to show shorter segments, involving guys like this who are lost in the shuffle, in some hardcore segments. I think the fans would buy into it, and there's really nothing to lose by giving these guys a shot in a manner distinct from what is currently being offered. Throwing a couple of otherwise throwaway roster members into a nice hardcore program, in lieu of some nonsense such as a Hornswoggle skit, could appeal to the percentage of the fan base who crave the action of this nature.

[size=+2] PG Era [/size]

Now I know what guys like my opponent will say. Come on, Habs, it's the PG Era. It's a kid-friendly target demographic today. Headshots are no longer allowed. Blood is virtually nonexistent. There's no way that WWE could ever go hardcore again. But I disagree.

There's no doubt that it would have to approached properly and conducted carefully. But with hardcore legends like Mick Foley at their disposal, and likely with the Innovator of Violence and other guys like this who could likely be brought in in an advisory capacity, who better to pull it off in a manner which can be done safely but effectively. The videos I showed earlier show the fans' propensity for hardcore action, but let's face it, we can never turn the clock back from the 2010's to the 1990's, nor should we. However, if executed properly, head shots can be replaced by back or shoulder chair shots, with comparable effect. Judicious use of blood, even if it involves the occasional use of blading, whereby we can attain maximum blood with minimal injury but maximum effect, this can be carried out in the PG world of today's WWE. Even such effects as tables, possibly afire, can provide a hardcore experience which can exist in the kid friendly world of today's WWE.

I say yes, the WWE should bring back hardcore wrestling. Not unprotected chairshots to the head. Not barbed wire or thumbtacks whereby professional wrestlers become glorified stuntmen in an unsafe environment. Not entire brands devoted entirely to this genre, and nothing over the top which would alienate the younger audiences. But hardcore wrestling, in a more controlled manner but under the careful tutelage of some of the historic great hardcore legends of yesteryear, to appeal to the whims of the wrestling fan base who seek something different from the current status quo. I'm talking about a small percentage of the overall programming, trying to capture the passion and emotion of hardcore wrestling, while still protecting the desires of the younger fan base.
 
The Broski, The Show Off, Cody Rhodes???

How can hardcore wrestling exist in the PG era? In today's WWE, you can't expect to see blood, thumbtacks, and brutal violence. It's not going to happen. Times have changed, and WWE has shifted into a new era. Also, when you take a look WWE's roster, who could actually fit the mold of a "hardcore" wrestler? WWE's roster might feature a group of young wrestlers, who are full of potential, but do these guys remind you of hardcore?

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I don't know about you, but these guys don't remind me of Mick Foley or any other hardcore legend, and I don't think about hardcore, when I look WWE's current roster.

WWE TLC & Extreme Rules

The TLC and Extreme Rules/One Night Stand pay per views provide the necessary fix for hardcore fans. Hardcore wrestling doesn't need to make a full time return, because fans can get a taste of extreme style matches during these pay per views:

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[YOUTUBE]1c9MA0xJ6E8&feature=BFa&list=PLD4CB8A861317D4CD[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]mfCjkz24_bk&feature=BFa&list=PLD4CB8A861317D4CD[/YOUTUBE]

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WWE can give fans entertaining, high quality matches at these pay per views. Wrestling fans can still see extreme style matches in small doses, hardcore style matches will feel more special, if they're saved for pay per view, and when you stop and think about it, there isn't a real need for hardcore wrestling to return full time.

The failure of WWEECW

WWE's version of ECW was a tremendous flop. Sure, at first hardcore fans could enjoy a little nostalgia kick from seeing Tommy Dreamer, Paul Heyman, Sandman, and RVD, but as time progressed, ECW became a shell of what it used to be. It was a watered down product, and brutal, hardcore style wrestling didn't have a place in WWE's PG era. Eventually, ECW was scrapped, and ECW didn't accomplish any memorable milestones under WWE's PG environment. ECW did provide ONE lasting memoray for WWE, but it's not for good reasons, though:

The event had an attendance of 4,800 and received about 90,000 pay-per-view buys, with 55,000 of them domestic buys—the lowest buyrate in WWE history.[5][6] Although it was scheduled to be held again in 2007, the show was canceled after all pay-per-view events became tri-branded, which meant that there would be pay-per-view events with the entire roster on two consecutive weeks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_to_Dismember_(2006)

December To Dismember was an embarrassing flop. ECW didn't catch on with the fans, and the violent, hardcore style of ECW didn't tempt large numbers of fans to buy this pay per view.

Where could hardcore wrestling possibly fit in?

How could hardcore wrestling fit within WWE's current product? Santino Marella is the US Champion, and his title match with The Miz won't make the televised pay per view card at Extreme Rules this Sunday. The US Champion won't receive pay per view time, so you can't expect hardcore wrestling to receive a significant amount of exposure. WWE has two world championships. The champions and the challengers will receive a good amount of TV time. You can be sure of it. Then, you have to think about the mid card titles (US and Intercontinental), and the Tag Team Championships. When it's all said done, hardcore wrestling might find a place in between Diva matches and segments.

Reintroducing hardcore wrestling would be a waste of time, and you can't have high hopes for anything positive, especially during the PG era.
 
As I stated in my opening post, I believe that the WWE could benefit from bringing back a hardcore element to its professional wrestling product. The simple fact of the matter is, there has always been a demand for the genre of hardcore wrestling, and there's absolutely no reason to suspect that demand is not still there.

As far back as the 1950's, professional wrestling was looking to lure in an ever expanding audience, trying to utilize shock value and the allure of blood lust to entice a more significant viewership. Guys like Giant Baba, Classy Freddy Blassie, and Dory Funk were amongst the pioneers in this regard, and their trailblazing efforts were continued by the likes of The Sheik and Terry Funk, onwards and upwards to the guys who I depicted in my opening post. The enticement of the blood, the lure of the violence, it's been present for decades. And it's still there. Just look at the encounter between Brock Lesnar and John Cena recently. While this was not true hardcore, the dominant point of discussion subsequent to it was the fact that Lesnar busted Cena open. How did it happen? Was it a head butt or a fist? Was it real or kayfabe? Are there real life tensions between the two, or was it all part of the script? It is the allure of this type of interaction that makes hardcore wrestling as appealing today as it's ever been.

And I am supposed to believe that just because it's the PG Era, with a younger target demographic, that all of a sudden, this demand for hardcore action is suddenly gone? I don't accept that and I for one don't believe it. Hardcore wrestling still has and always will have it's niche audience, and that's just as evident today as it's ever been.

If you question the appeal of the hardcore element of the pro wrestling business, check this out:


Wrestlemania 22 saw this gem go down. This match further added to the legacy of the Hardcore Legend Mick Foley (not that he needed to add to his legacy mind you). Simultaneously, this event catapulted Edge into the main event, as he defeated Foley at his own game. And the fans absolutely loved this matchup and still talk about it to this day. It has even been suggested that this match ranks amongst the top twenty Wrestlemania matches of all time:

http://sports.ign.com/articles/775/775590p2.html

This is one match up of many which displays the profound effect a solid hardcore match can have upon the careers of the participants, as well as the lasting impact it can make upon the fans who enjoy it.

And it's hardly alone:


Again this match, which occurred at Backlash 2004, was yet another in an extended history of hardcore classics from Foley. But it was more than that, as it too established one of our biggest superstars of the current age, into the main event, as the Legend Killer essentially killed the Legend in his own element. Once again, an instant classic amongst the fans, which had a profound effect upon the combatants. Yet another example of how impactful hardcore wrestling can be. And another example of why there should still be a niche available for it in today's environment.

And you don't necessarily need Foley to put on a hardcore wrestling clinic:


RVD and Tommy Dreamer, showing yet again, the appeal of a quality hardcore wrestling match, the effect it can have upon the fans, as well as the impact upon their respective careers. Hardcore wrestling should still be relevant in pro wrestling today, this cannot be disputed.

My opponent would have you believe that are no plausible wrestlers on the current roster who could fit this hardcore style. And no doubt about it, his examples of Cody Rhodes, Zack Ryder, or Dolph Ziggler do not appear to be hardcore candidates. I disagree, however, with Daniel Bryan, and I believe he could easily transition into that genre if desired. Over and above him, a few other guys come to mind:

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Not to mention Big Show, Mark Henry, Sheamus, Tyler Reks,a reinvented Brodus Clay, or any of several guys down in FCW who could be called up and groomed for this genre.

Mitch mentions getting your hardcore fix from just two PPV's per year. In my opinion, this would be inadequate. They would be a sensible place to start, but they would need to step up the intensity a little. Much along the lines that Hell In A Cell or Elimination Chamber PPV's (if they were to continue) would need to step up the hardcore aspect somewhat as well, rather than being regular style matches with a cage in the background, blocking the camera. If they were going to reintroduce hardcore wrestling a little more, as I have been suggesting they should, they need to make more of a commitment to it. Not just a couple of times a year, but more of a presence throughout the year. I'm not suggesting it needs to happen every single week on television. However, for the fan base to get reinvested into the genre, they need to see more of it again.

WWECW was a flop because they were never truly committed to it. I don't want to see hardcore wrestling come back for nostalgic purposes. And as I said, I don't want it to come back as the focal point of entire PPV's or as an entire brand. I want to see it come back, spread out over the entire season, on television, house shows, and PPV's, in small but effective increments, so that the fans can get behind the style again and guys being called upon to display it again. Surely, amongst the divas matches and the comedy sketches, they can find the time to reconnect the fans with the hardcore wrestling style. No hardcore belt required, with no silly 24/7 defense stipulation. Just a more physical, brutal style of action, interspersed amongst the other programming, to appeal to the niche audience that still enjoys this style, without alienating the others.

My detractors would have you believe that hardcore wrestling does not have a place in the world of professional wrestling of today, because of the supposed fact that the target demographic of the PG Era audience is predominantly kids. But guess what, the target demographic of professional wrestling has always largely been kids. There's nothing new there. I remember watching guys when I was a kid, using chains around their fists to bust their opponents open, while concealing said chains in their mouths when the ever unobservant referees came looking. There was hardcore action back then and kids watched it. And there still can be hardcore action today, and kids can watch that too. In moderation and in a slightly modified form, more on that below.

But there is still a demographic getting missed here. What about the fathers, the grandfathers, the uncles, and the older siblings of these children? These are typically the ones who purchase the merchandise for their kids, who buy the tickets for their kids for the live events, and who purchase the pay per views. Why be totally oblivious to these people, when they can be profited upon? Because as I said in my opening post, I'm not suggesting full brands of hardcore wrestling, or even full episodes dedicated to it. I'm talking about 10-15 minutes on selective evenings, to appeal to the alternate demographic. Sure, focus upon the true target demographic for 1 hour and 45 minutes of RAW. But leave some time for the rest of the audience, that niche audience who still enjoys and craves hardcore wrestling.

Obviously, it's no longer 1990. In the wake of Chris Benoit, in the world of ever increasing awareness of concussions and other such injuries, and in the ever increasing litigious society we live in, hardcore wrestling does need to evolve with the times. Gone are unprotected head shots, absurd amounts of blood, and the days of barbed wire clubs called Janice. But there is still plenty of room for protected head shots, tables (either single or in stacks, sometimes afire and sometimes not), ladders (for jumping off, landing on, or using as a weapon), and chairs (just not unprotected to the head). There's room for such weapons as kendo sticks, brass knuckles, garbage cans, sledgehammers (just ask HHH), and headbutts. And there's still room for making full and effective use of cold hard steel, whether it be a traditional cage, a Hell In A Cell, or an Elimination Chamber. As I see it, hardcore wrestling can and should easily still have a place in the modern world of professional wrestling, regardless of the name placed upon the Era or the target demographic it is aimed at. As such, hardcore wrestling should return to the WWE to a greater degree.
 
As I stated in my opening post, I believe that the WWE could benefit from bringing back a hardcore element to its professional wrestling product. The simple fact of the matter is, there has always been a demand for the genre of hardcore wrestling, and there's absolutely no reason to suspect that demand is not still there.

The Extreme Rules and TLC pay per views don't satisfy this demand? As I said earlier, hardcore wrestling doesn't need to make a full time return, because both pay per views can fulfill any cravings wrestling fans might have for hardcore wrestling. Both of these pay per views can be a treat for hardcore fans, and you can see great matches on either show. Here's another prime example:

[YOUTUBE]ESVeZ3NS0q0&feature=plcp[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]kQ_oFlI8E20[/YOUTUBE]

As far back as the 1950's, professional wrestling was looking to lure in an ever expanding audience, trying to utilize shock value and the allure of blood lust to entice a more significant viewership. Guys like Giant Baba, Classy Freddy Blassie, and Dory Funk were amongst the pioneers in this regard, and their trailblazing efforts were continued by the likes of The Sheik and Terry Funk, onwards and upwards to the guys who I depicted in my opening post.

Times have changed, Habs. You can't expect to see a true hardcore character in WWE. You're not going to see a guy bust himself open with beer cans and a kendo stick before the match. The PG era has its limits, and true hardcore characters wouldn't have a place in today's WWE.

The enticement of the blood, the lure of the violence, it's been present for decades. And it's still there. Just look at the encounter between Brock Lesnar and John Cena recently. While this was not true hardcore, the dominant point of discussion subsequent to it was the fact that Lesnar busted Cena open. How did it happen? Was it a head butt or a fist? Was it real or kayfabe? Are there real life tensions between the two, or was it all part of the script? It is the allure of this type of interaction that makes hardcore wrestling as appealing today as it's ever been.

Blood? Can you really expect to see blood in a PG environment? You can't expect to see bloody battles in WWE's PG era, and there is no middle ground, when it comes to WWE's no blood policy.

As far as the Cena/Lesnar brawl goes, Cena's busted lip had to be an accident. I would have to lean in the direction of an accident, because nobody is above WWE's no blood policy. Not The Undertaker, not Brock Lesnar, and not John Cena. Nobody. Lesnar probably missed the mark with his "punch", and Cena's bloody lip was the result of his misfire. We'll see footage of Cena's bloody lip in the promos for his match with Lesnar this Sunday, but I'm sure fans will forget about it soon enough. One busted lip isn't going to cause an urge for the full time return of hardcore wrestling.

And I am supposed to believe that just because it's the PG Era, with a younger target demographic, that all of a sudden, this demand for hardcore action is suddenly gone? I don't accept that and I for one don't believe it. Hardcore wrestling still has and always will have it's niche audience, and that's just as evident today as it's ever been.

I can't believe wrestling fans are foaming at the mouth for the return of hardcore wrestling. The PG era can still be highly entertaining without hardcore wrestling. And hardcore fans can still get their fix for hardcore wrestling at WWE's more extreme pay per views. Here's another example:

[YOUTUBE]t1ZQ5QIXT2g[/YOUTUBE]

If you question the appeal of the hardcore element of the pro wrestling business, check this out:


Wrestlemania 22 saw this gem go down. This match further added to the legacy of the Hardcore Legend Mick Foley (not that he needed to add to his legacy mind you). Simultaneously, this event catapulted Edge into the main event, as he defeated Foley at his own game. And the fans absolutely loved this matchup and still talk about it to this day. It has even been suggested that this match ranks amongst the top twenty Wrestlemania matches of all time:

http://sports.ign.com/articles/775/775590p2.html

This is one match up of many which displays the profound effect a solid hardcore match can have upon the careers of the participants, as well as the lasting impact it can make upon the fans who enjoy it.

Thumbtacks, blood, fire, barbwire? Can you really expect to see this stuff in the PG era? Foley VS Edge at Wrestlemania 22 did provide a memorable experience for hardcore fans, but you will not see blood, thumbtacks, and fire in the PG era. Other wrestlers will be thrown through tables guys will fall off of ladders, but we're not going to see blood and burning tables.

And it's hardly alone:


Again this match, which occurred at Backlash 2004, was yet another in an extended history of hardcore classics from Foley. But it was more than that, as it too established one of our biggest superstars of the current age, into the main event, as the Legend Killer essentially killed the Legend in his own element. Once again, an instant classic amongst the fans, which had a profound effect upon the combatants. Yet another example of how impactful hardcore wrestling can be. And another example of why there should still be a niche available for it in today's environment.

The Intercontinental Championship match from Backlash 2004 did provide an entertaining match for hardcore fans....but that was in 2004. You can't expect to see this type of match in 2012.

Also, how did this match establish Randy Orton into the main event? Orton would later defeat Chris Benoit at Summerslam 2004 for the World Heavyweight Championship, and his run as a face champion was a big flop. Orton was given big pushes for years, but he didn't become a true fan favorite until 2010. The fans started to go nuts for him during his feud Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase, and his popularity finally took off, after he defeated both men in a triple threat match at Wrestlemania 26. Bottom line, Orton became a true star four years after this match.

And you don't necessarily need Foley to put on a hardcore wrestling clinic:


RVD and Tommy Dreamer, showing yet again, the appeal of a quality hardcore wrestling match, the effect it can have upon the fans, as well as the impact upon their respective careers. Hardcore wrestling should still be relevant in pro wrestling today, this cannot be disputed.

Tommy Dreamer is gone, and RVD is TNA, so how could they help WWE?

My opponent would have you believe that are no plausible wrestlers on the current roster who could fit this hardcore style. And no doubt about it, his examples of Cody Rhodes, Zack Ryder, or Dolph Ziggler do not appear to be hardcore candidates. I disagree, however, with Daniel Bryan, and I believe he could easily transition into that genre if desired. Over and above him, a few other guys come to mind:

I can see where you're coming from here. Bryan's character could have more of an edge, but the obnoxious "YES! YES! YES!" gimmick is starting to catch on with the fans. Bryan has been on fire with this gimmick since his Wrestlemania loss to Sheamus, and the "YES!" chants have become VERY popular with the fans. Bryan's character is hot right now, fans are more than willing to spend money on "YES!" shirts, so you can't expect any major changes in the future.

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What do you really see, when you look at Lord Tensai? Do you see this unstoppable monster, who supposedly reeked havoc in Japan, or do you see Prince Albert? His new character and tattooed face couldn't fool fans upon his return, and when I look at Lord Tensai, I just see a fat version of A-Train in red tights.

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Kane could be that one guy, but do you really think of hardcore, when you look at Kane? Kane's character doesn't remind of Tommy Dreamer or Mick Foley. Kane is an evil force, and his character possess supernatural abilities. Also, the PG era is in full swing. Violence is limited, and there is no blood, so you can't expect to see the same Kane that tried to burn Jim Ross alive.


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Ryback could have a bigger future. He has the perfect size, look, and build. For a man of his size, Ryback does have some nice speed, he's loaded with intensity, and with time, he could easily become a contender for world championship gold, so why should WWE waste his talents with hardcore wrestling? Ryback has the potential to become a serious #1 contender for the World Heavyweight Championship, and wasting his talents in a pointless hardcore resurrection would be a terrible mistake.

Ezekiel%252BJackson1.jpg

Ezekiel Jackson just has a look. That's it. Jackson can be incredibly bland and boring most of the time, and his lackluster run with the Intercontinental Championship was very forgettable. Jackson couldn't provide a jump-start for anything, especially hardcore wrestling.

Not to mention Big Show, Mark Henry, Sheamus, Tyler Reks,a reinvented Brodus Clay, or any of several guys down in FCW who could be called up and groomed for this genre.

Big Show is doing fine as the loveable face right now. The fans love him, and his IC title win at Wrestlemania did provide a feel good moment, so there's no need for a change.

Since losing the World Heavyweight Championship, Mark Henry's character has taken some steps backwards. Sure, he's kept Punk busy for the past couple of weeks, but will WWE feature Henry in a prominent role again? After all, Henry only enjoyed one successful push in the past sixteen years, so he isn't known for consistency.

Sheamus was on the path to being an ass-kicking, Irishmen, who could destroy anything in his path...but since his face turn Sheamus' character doesn't have the same edge. His promos and segments feature a lot more comedy, and he isn't the same bad ass, tough guy anymore.

Tyler Reks? I have good reasons for mentioning Ziggler, Ryder, Bryan, and Rhodes. These men are the future in WWE, they have received strong pushes, and all of these men have worn championship gold. And they receive meaningful TV time. Can you think of a memorable Tyler Reks moment on Smackdown or Raw? I know I can't. Tyler Reks hasn't done anything worth remembering in WWE. His brief run on Smackdown was forgettable, he looks like a fool on NXT, and being a former FCW Heavyweight Champion can't be considered an impressive accolade.

Also, I'm not sure about Brodus Clay. He has the size and look of a monster heel, but could he become a believable, dangerous threat again? The Funkasaurus gimmick will be hard to change, and audiences probably won't accept a serious version of Clay's character. Transforming Clay into an unstoppable monster won't be easy, and audiences will remember Brodus' moments as The Funkasaurus, because you can't forget this:

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WWE can't rely on a forty-six year old Mick Foley anymore. They need to put their faith in the younger members of their roster, If a hardcore resurrection takes place. Ziggler, Bryan, Rhodes, and Ryder give WWE a better chance for a successful resurrection. The fans know who they are, and they have received pushes, that resulted in successful championship runs. But none of these men fit the profile of a true hardcore wrestler, and in the end, an attempted resurrection would hit a brick wall.

Mitch mentions getting your hardcore fix from just two PPV's per year. In my opinion, this would be inadequate. They would be a sensible place to start, but they would need to step up the intensity a little. Much along the lines that Hell In A Cell or Elimination Chamber PPV's (if they were to continue) would need to step up the hardcore aspect somewhat as well, rather than being regular style matches with a cage in the background, blocking the camera. If they were going to reintroduce hardcore wrestling a little more, as I have been suggesting they should, they need to make more of a commitment to it. Not just a couple of times a year, but more of a presence throughout the year. I'm not suggesting it needs to happen every single week on television. However, for the fan base to get reinvested into the genre, they need to see more of it again.

The material from TLC and Extreme Rules is more than enough, Habs. Both pay per views can be the fulfilling treat for hardcore fans. TLC and Extreme Rules can give fans a taste of the hardcore style, both of these pay per views can provide good and great matches, so what's the problem?

Also, the Hell In Cell pay per view can't bring back hardcore wrestling. The PG era and the no blood policy has restricted a lot of the violence in Cell matches, so you won't see gruesome bloodbaths (Shawn Michaels VS HHH from Bad Blood 2004, or Undertaker VS Brock Lesnar from No Mercy 2002 would be a few examples). When it comes to Chamber matches, you will see the very redundant and predictable plexiglass (i.e. one wrestler is slammed or forced through one of the chamber pods) spot, but Chamber matches don't feature the same levels of brutality and violence anymore. And Like Hell In A Cell, Chamber matches have become more tamed.

WWECW was a flop because they were never truly committed to it. I don't want to see hardcore wrestling come back for nostalgic purposes. And as I said, I don't want it to come back as the focal point of entire PPV's or as an entire brand. I want to see it come back, spread out over the entire season, on television, house shows, and PPV's, in small but effective increments, so that the fans can get behind the style again and guys being called upon to display it again. Surely, amongst the divas matches and the comedy sketches, they can find the time to reconnect the fans with the hardcore wrestling style. No hardcore belt required, with no silly 24/7 defense stipulation. Just a more physical, brutal style of action, interspersed amongst the other programming, to appeal to the niche audience that still enjoys this style, without alienating the others.

WWEECW was a flop. It was WWE's C show, and this version of ECW was treated like a third rate brand, so why would WWE put faith in hardcore wrestling again? The ECW brand provided the perfect opportunity for a successful hardcore resurrection. The original ECW was a well known and respected promotion for hardcore wrestling fans, WWEECW featured popular stars from the original brand (Rob Van Dam, Tommy Dreamer), and ECW had the pleasure of enjoying the WWE's huge platform. WWE's exposure, original stars, and Paul Heyman? This was a once in a lifetime situation. Hardcore wrestling did have a chance at a resurrection during ECW's rebirth, but the resurrection flopped in the worst way.

And now, RVD is gone, Dreamer is gone, and you can't expect a Jerry Lynn sighting in the near future. Hardcore wrestling had the elements for a successful resurrection, but hardcore wrestling couldn't thrive in a PG environment. The perfect opportunity for hardcore's second chance in the WWE is long gone.

My detractors would have you believe that hardcore wrestling does not have a place in the world of professional wrestling of today, because of the supposed fact that the target demographic of the PG Era audience is predominantly kids. But guess what, the target demographic of professional wrestling has always largely been kids. There's nothing new there. I remember watching guys when I was a kid, using chains around their fists to bust their opponents open, while concealing said chains in their mouths when the ever unobservant referees came looking. There was hardcore action back then and kids watched it. And there still can be hardcore action today, and kids can watch that too. In moderation and in a slightly modified form, more on that below.

Yeah, every kid isn't going to freak out over the sight of blood, but that doesn't matter, because WWE has made the transition to a more family friendly product.

But there is still a demographic getting missed here. What about the fathers, the grandfathers, the uncles, and the older siblings of these children? These are typically the ones who purchase the merchandise for their kids, who buy the tickets for their kids for the live events, and who purchase the pay per views. Why be totally oblivious to these people, when they can be profited upon? Because as I said in my opening post, I'm not suggesting full brands of hardcore wrestling, or even full episodes dedicated to it. I'm talking about 10-15 minutes on selective evenings, to appeal to the alternate demographic. Sure, focus upon the true target demographic for 1 hour and 45 minutes of RAW. But leave some time for the rest of the audience, that niche audience who still enjoys and craves hardcore wrestling.

Well, this guy can sell a lot of merchandise, that appeals to children:

img_4440_john-cena-calls-out-the-rock-raw-april-2-2012.jpg


John Cena is the face of the PG era. He can be a GREAT role model for kids, and his merchandise can always top the best seller's list in WWE. Plenty of fathers have purchased Cena merchandise for their kids along the way, you can be sure of it.

And Raw would be a bad place for any sort of hardcore resurrection. Habs, think about what's going on this year. Brock Lesnar has made his return to WWE. He will feud with John Cena. The Rock will make his return at some point, and he will find his way into the WWE Championship picture. And Kharma's return will receive some spotlight. Raw's lineup will be VERY crowded for quite some time, so where could hardcore wrestling possibly fit in?

Obviously, it's no longer 1990. In the wake of Chris Benoit, in the world of ever increasing awareness of concussions and other such injuries, and in the ever increasing litigious society we live in, hardcore wrestling does need to evolve with the times. Gone are unprotected head shots, absurd amounts of blood, and the days of barbed wire clubs called Janice. But there is still plenty of room for protected head shots, tables (either single or in stacks, sometimes afire and sometimes not), ladders (for jumping off, landing on, or using as a weapon), and chairs (just not unprotected to the head). There's room for such weapons as kendo sticks, brass knuckles, garbage cans, sledgehammers (just ask HHH), and headbutts. And there's still room for making full and effective use of cold hard steel, whether it be a traditional cage, a Hell In A Cell, or an Elimination Chamber. As I see it, hardcore wrestling can and should easily still have a place in the modern world of professional wrestling, regardless of the name placed upon the Era or the target demographic it is aimed at. As such, hardcore wrestling should return to the WWE to a greater degree.

Abyss and Janice are TNA creations, so they don't relate to WWE. ;)

The return of hardcore wrestling wouldn't fit within today's WWE. WWE had the perfect chance with the rebirth of ECW, and they blew it. Trust me, they will never see a golden opportunity like that again, ever.
 
The Extreme Rules and TLC pay per views don't satisfy this demand? As I said earlier, hardcore wrestling doesn't need to make a full time return, because both pay per views can fulfill any cravings wrestling fans might have for hardcore wrestling. Both of these pay per views can be a treat for hardcore fans, and you can see great matches on either show.

No, I don't think two PPV's per year, with no other focus whatsoever upon the hardcore genre during the rest of the year, satisfies this demand. I'm not suggesting that WWE needs to abandon the PG Era or dramatically change their status quo, but I do think that to do justice to the hardcore style, we need to see some hardcore action, spread sporadically throughout the year, at some house shows, some TV programming, and some PPV's. They can still maintain the kid-friendly product exactly as it is, but with samplings of hardcore on a semi-regular basis, to satisfy the niche audience who still respect it and enjoy it.

Times have changed, Habs. You can't expect to see a true hardcore character in WWE. You're not going to see a guy bust himself open with beer cans and a kendo stick before the match. The PG era has its limits, and true hardcore characters wouldn't have a place in today's WWE.

Of course times have changed. Wrestling is constantly changing and evolving. That's not to say things cannot change again. Wrestling, like so many other aspects of pop culture, is very cyclical, and things come into and go out of focus over and over again. I'm not convinced that the modern day professional wrestling fan is inherently any different than he ever was. Hardcore characters could definitely still have a place in today's WWE, if presented properly and effectively.


Blood? Can you really expect to see blood in a PG environment? You can't expect to see bloody battles in WWE's PG era, and there is no middle ground, when it comes to WWE's no blood policy.

As far as the Cena/Lesnar brawl goes, Cena's busted lip had to be an accident. I would have to lean in the direction of an accident, because nobody is above WWE's no blood policy. Not The Undertaker, not Brock Lesnar, and not John Cena. Nobody. Lesnar probably missed the mark with his "punch", and Cena's bloody lip was the result of his misfire. We'll see footage of Cena's bloody lip in the promos for his match with Lesnar this Sunday, but I'm sure fans will forget about it soon enough. One busted lip isn't going to cause an urge for the full time return of hardcore wrestling.

I can definitely see blood as having a place in the PG era. I understand there is a no blood policy in place at the moment, and obviously that policy would have to be modified. I'm not proposing a return to this:

images


But personally I have no problem with this:

009.jpg


Or this:

punk-blood.jpg%3Fw%3D584


I'm not a proponent of blood for blood's sake, but the realism that occasional blood brings, especially in a hardcore environment, still has a place in today's product, as it always has.

I can't believe wrestling fans are foaming at the mouth for the return of hardcore wrestling. The PG era can still be highly entertaining without hardcore wrestling. And hardcore fans can still get their fix for hardcore wrestling at WWE's more extreme pay per views.

I'm not suggesting that all wrestling fans are "foaming at the mouth" for hardcore wrestling. And I'm not saying the PG product cannot be entertaining without it. All I am saying is, if presented carefully and properly, there's room for both the status quo of the current PG product for the bulk of the audience, as well as the hardcore product for the niche that still wants it.


Thumbtacks, blood, fire, barbwire? Can you really expect to see this stuff in the PG era? Foley VS Edge at Wrestlemania 22 did provide a memorable experience for hardcore fans, but you will not see blood, thumbtacks, and fire in the PG era. Other wrestlers will be thrown through tables guys will fall off of ladders, but we're not going to see blood and burning tables.

Thumbtacks? No. Barbwire? Not to be actually used, but the threat of a barb wire weapon can still be effective. Fire? Can definitely be incorporated into a hardcore match in the PG era. Shock value with minimal risk or potential for injury for the combatants. Weapons in general can still be incorporated into a hardcore matchup, with or without blood. Kendo sticks, brass knuckles, garbage cans, sledgehammers, steel cages, all can be incorporated into hardcore matches, even today.


Also, how did this match establish Randy Orton into the main event? He would later defeat Chris Benoit at Summerslam 2004 for the World Heavyweight Championship, and his run as a face champion was a big flop. Orton was given big pushes for years, but he didn't become a true fan favorite until 2010. The fans started to go nuts for him during his feud Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase, and his popularity finally took off, after he defeated both men in a triple threat match at Wrestlemania 26. Bottom line, Orton became a true star four years after this match.

Asked and answered. And come on now, Orton has been a star in the company since well before 2010. His star power shot up dramatically well before that, kick started by his program with Foley.


Tommy Dreamer is gone, and RVD is TNA, so how could they help WWE?

I realize RVD and Dreamer are not currently with WWE. This was just another example of a great hardcore match, and how it is received by the fans. And I doubt it would take much enticement to get Dreamer back, especially in an advisory role for a hardcore element in WWE, done properly this time.


I won't get into a tedious quote by quote discussion of all of the superstars listed previously, I'll try to run through them briefly. I'm not suggesting Daniel Bryan should go hardcore right at this particular moment, I'm simply suggesting that he is more than capable of doing so if required. If the program between himself and Sheamus continues, I for one wouldn't mind seeing it culminate in a no rules, brutal hardcore match.

Tensai is a big guy who could easily transform into an effective hardcore guy. Your personal opinion of him (which actually I agree with, he's Albert with a new gimmick) is irrelevant to the discussion here. And remember, if WWE is geared so much for the kids, many of them won't even remember Albert. I was telling my son that Albert was coming back to WWE with a new look, and he had no idea who Albert even was. For this target demographic, Tensai could be a plausible hardcore guy.

Kane could easily be a hardcore guy, especially the masked incarnation of him. Ryback is a huge, physical guy who could easily go hardcore, and this wouldn't impact upon his potential to be a main eventer later. He could establish himself as a mean s.o.b in the hardcore, getting over with the audience in the meantime, and translate this popularity into a subsequent main event push. Ezekiel Jackson is bland and boring, but I think he becomes far more interesting with a kendo stick in hand. His lack of prowess on the mic, and his lack of charisma and presence can easily be obscured by the use of weaponry.

Big Show is the same for me as Bryan. He is currently doing OK as he is, but he is more than capable of translating his success into the hardcore if needed, simply based on his sheer size if nothing else. Henry and Sheamus are huge physical specimens who would fit nicely into a hardcore environment. And Tyler Reks is simply an example of a guy who has had no memorable moments whatsoever, all the more reason to re-invent him and repackage him into a hardcore guy.

Brodus Clay could easily ditch his ridiculous gimmick, which will have no future and is already getting old, with a quick heel turn ending up in the hardcore world. Match him up with the fan friendly Santino Marella, then pull a double cross on him, with weapons in hand. Bye bye Funkasaurus, hello hardcore prodigy.


WWE can't rely on a forty-six year old Mick Foley anymore. They need to put their faith in the younger members of their roster, If a hardcore resurrection takes place. Ziggler, Bryan, Rhodes, and Ryder give WWE a better chance for a successful resurrection. The fans know who they are, and they have received pushes, that resulted in successful championship runs. But none of these men fit the profile of a true hardcore wrestler, and in the end, an attempted resurrection would hit a brick wall.

WWE doesn't need to rely on the 46 year old Foley. He would be primarily used in an advisory capacity, with the ability to compete occasionally to help elevate someone in need of a push, as he did with Edge and Orton.


Also, the Hell In Cell pay per view can't bring back hardcore wrestling. The PG era and the no blood policy has restricted a lot of the violence in Cell matches, so you won't see gruesome bloodbaths (Shawn Michaels VS HHH from Bad Blood 2004, or Undertaker VS Brock Lesnar from No Mercy 2002 would be a few examples). When it comes to Chamber matches, you will see the very redundant and predictable plexiglass (i.e. one wrestler is slammed or forced through one of the chamber pods) spot, but Chamber matches don't feature the same levels of brutality and violence anymore. And Like Hell In A Cell, Chamber matches have become more tamed.

As I said before, the no blood policy will clearly need to be modified if the WWE plans to dabble back into the world of hardcore wrestling. But I'm not suggesting we need "gruesome bloodbaths". But if you are going to put the participants into a structure which is in and of itself a weapon, you may as well utilize it to it's fullest capacity. And if that involves some minor blood spillage, and the realism that accompanies it, all the better.

WWEECW was a flop. It was WWE's C show, and this version of ECW was treated like a third rate brand, so why would WWE put faith in hardcore wrestling again? The ECW brand provided the perfect opportunity for a successful hardcore resurrection. The original ECW was a well known and respected promotion for hardcore wrestling fans, WWEECW featured popular stars from the original brand (Rob Van Dam, Tommy Dreamer), and ECW had the pleasure of enjoying the WWE's huge platform. WWE's exposure, original stars, and Paul Heyman? This was a once in a lifetime situation. Hardcore wrestling did have a chance at a resurrection during ECW's rebirth, but the resurrection flopped in the worst way.

WWECW was a flop. But I'm not suggesting an entire brand devoted to the hardcore genre. I'm not espousing an entire PPV of hardcore either, as December to Dismember would indicate is not a good idea. I would like to see hardcore segments interspersed in regular and effective intervals amongst house shows, PPV's, and television programming. Forget nostalgia or resurrecting ECW. Bring a newer product amongst existing material, using a tried and true genre in hardcore wrestling.


John Cena is the face of the PG era. He can be a GREAT role model for kids, and his merchandise can always top the best seller's list in WWE. Plenty of fathers have purchased Cena merchandise for their kids along the way, you can be sure of it.

I can find absolutely no fault with this paragraph. Let John Cena be the face of the PG era, the ultimate role model, and the predominant mover of merchandise. Let him and the rest of his contemporaries be the deserved focal point of the bulk of the product. That's not to say, though, that this doesn't leave a niche audience to appeal to with a steady diet of hardcore wrestling, over and above the current status quo.

Abyss and Janice are TNA creations, so they don't relate to WWE.

I realize this, I simply couldn't resist a dig at TNA Wrestling.

The return of hardcore wrestling wouldn't fit within today's WWE. WWE had the perfect chance with the rebirth of ECW, and they blew it. Trust me, they will never see a golden opportunity like that again, ever.

The return of hardcore wrestling could absolutely fit within today's WWE. They would have to be committed to it. They would have to execute it properly. And they would have to provide a 2010 version of it, not a 1990 version of it.


Unfortunately, due to work commitments tomorrow, I do not anticipate the ability to be able to post tomorrow prior to the deadline. So I'll have to wrap things up this evening.

[size=+2] Concluding Statements [/size]

In my opinion, WWE should bring hardcore wrestling back into their programming. The demand for hardcore wrestling has been present for decades, as I have shown ample video evidence for. And there is nothing to suggest that that demand is not still there today. The violence and realism provided by hardcore wrestling will always appeal to a niche audience, and WWE should be able to cater to this subpopulation without alienating their target demographic.

WWE has the roster to pull off a return to some greater hardcore action. They have a number of competitors who could easily transition into this role, as well as plenty of guys in developmental who could be nurtured into it. Combine this with the expertise and experience of guys like Foley, predominantly in an advisory role, and hardcore wrestling could reclaim some of it's allure of yesteryear.

I'm not suggesting WWECW again. I don't espouse a separate hardcore brand, or hardcore specific PPV's. I don't even suggest weekly hardcore segments, a return of a 24/7 hardcore belt, or anything to detect from the current status quo. What I want is sporadically placed segments of intense hardcore activity, on TV, PPV, or house shows, to appeal to the percentage of the population that still wants it.

This can occur in the PG Era, with the overall target demographic still being children. Obviously the no blood policy would have to be modified, but that can happen easily. I'm not suggesting gruesome bloodbaths involving tearing of skin with barb wire or thumbtacks. But I would certainly support the use of weaponry and the increased physicality and brutality of the hardcore genre. No unprotected chairs shots to the head, but the employment of protected chair shots, other hardcore weaponry, not to mention the hard steel afforded by the various cage structures. The PG Era does not preclude this, and the kid friendly product can still remain the focus of most of the show. But alternative styles, in the form of hardcore wrestling, can still be utilized to entice the niche audience who appreciates hardcore wrestling, without putting off the existing viewership. The WWE can and should bring back hardcore wrestling.

Mick_Foley_-_Mick_Foley_16.jpg
 
No, I don't think two PPV's per year, with no other focus whatsoever upon the hardcore genre during the rest of the year, satisfies this demand. I'm not suggesting that WWE needs to abandon the PG Era or dramatically change their status quo, but I do think that to do justice to the hardcore style, we need to see some hardcore action, spread sporadically throughout the year, at some house shows, some TV programming, and some PPV's. They can still maintain the kid-friendly product exactly as it is, but with samplings of hardcore on a semi-regular basis, to satisfy the niche audience who still respect it and enjoy it.

TLC and Extreme Rules can satisfy the needs of hardcore fans. Both cards feature a variety of hardcore style matches, so hardcore fans will get to see something different with each match. Both pay per views are more than capable of delivering high quality matches, and the videos in my previous posts prove this. TLC and Extreme Rules can provide a Super Bowl experience for hardcore fans, and hardcore wrestling fans have the chance to experience this feeling twice a year, so I see no real reason hardcore wrestling's full time return.

Of course times have changed. Wrestling is constantly changing and evolving. That's not to say things cannot change again. Wrestling, like so many other aspects of pop culture, is very cyclical, and things come into and go out of focus over and over again. I'm not convinced that the modern day professional wrestling fan is inherently any different than he ever was. Hardcore characters could definitely still have a place in today's WWE, if presented properly and effectively.

I don't think it'll happen, Habs. Hardcore wrestling can't thrive in a PG environment, because there are too many restrictions, and you can't ignore the tamed environment of today's WWE.

I can definitely see blood as having a place in the PG era. I understand there is a no blood policy in place at the moment, and obviously that policy would have to be modified. I'm not proposing a return to this:

images


But personally I have no problem with this:

009.jpg


Or this:

punk-blood.jpg%3Fw%3D584


I'm not a proponent of blood for blood's sake, but the realism that occasional blood brings, especially in a hardcore environment, still has a place in today's product, as it always has.

I understand where you're coming from, but blood can't become an important factor in the PG era. Cena and Punk are bleeding in those photos, but both incidents didn't occur in actual matches. Cena and Punk did shed blood, but they didn't spill any blood during a wrestling match. There's a big difference between actually blading during a match, and losing some blood during an in ring segment.

I'm not suggesting that all wrestling fans are "foaming at the mouth" for hardcore wrestling. And I'm not saying the PG product cannot be entertaining without it. All I am saying is, if presented carefully and properly, there's room for both the status quo of the current PG product for the bulk of the audience, as well as the hardcore product for the niche that still wants it.

I just can't get behind a full time return for hardcore wrestling. As long as TLC and Extreme Rules exist, I don't see a real reason for hardcore wrestling to make a full time return in WWE.

Thumbtacks? No. Barbwire? Not to be actually used, but the threat of a barb wire weapon can still be effective. Fire? Can definitely be incorporated into a hardcore match in the PG era. Shock value with minimal risk or potential for injury for the combatants. Weapons in general can still be incorporated into a hardcore matchup, with or without blood. Kendo sticks, brass knuckles, garbage cans, sledgehammers, steel cages, all can be incorporated into hardcore matches, even today.

Weapons won't matter, because the current direction of WWE's product isn't heading towards a hardcore rebirth.

Asked and answered. And come on now, Orton has been a star in the company since well before 2010. His star power shot up dramatically well before that, kick started by his program with Foley.

Orton constantly received hard pushes. He was always near the top in WWE, but he still couldn't reach the level of a big time superstar in WWE. Orton never killed any legends, and he has experienced greater success under The Viper gimmick.

I realize RVD and Dreamer are not currently with WWE. This was just another example of a great hardcore match, and how it is received by the fans. And I doubt it would take much enticement to get Dreamer back, especially in an advisory role for a hardcore element in WWE, done properly this time.

How can Dreamer help, if WWE doesn't bring back hardcore wrestling full time? First, WWE would have to make the decision to bring back hardcore wrestling, and this wouldn't be a sure thing in the PG era.

I won't get into a tedious quote by quote discussion of all of the superstars listed previously, I'll try to run through them briefly. I'm not suggesting Daniel Bryan should go hardcore right at this particular moment, I'm simply suggesting that he is more than capable of doing so if required. If the program between himself and Sheamus continues, I for one wouldn't mind seeing it culminate in a no rules, brutal hardcore match.

Tensai is a big guy who could easily transform into an effective hardcore guy. Your personal opinion of him (which actually I agree with, he's Albert with a new gimmick) is irrelevant to the discussion here. And remember, if WWE is geared so much for the kids, many of them won't even remember Albert. I was telling my son that Albert was coming back to WWE with a new look, and he had no idea who Albert even was. For this target demographic, Tensai could be a plausible hardcore guy.

Kane could easily be a hardcore guy, especially the masked incarnation of him. Ryback is a huge, physical guy who could easily go hardcore, and this wouldn't impact upon his potential to be a main eventer later. He could establish himself as a mean s.o.b in the hardcore, getting over with the audience in the meantime, and translate this popularity into a subsequent main event push. Ezekiel Jackson is bland and boring, but I think he becomes far more interesting with a kendo stick in hand. His lack of prowess on the mic, and his lack of charisma and presence can easily be obscured by the use of weaponry.

Big Show is the same for me as Bryan. He is currently doing OK as he is, but he is more than capable of translating his success into the hardcore if needed, simply based on his sheer size if nothing else. Henry and Sheamus are huge physical specimens who would fit nicely into a hardcore environment. And Tyler Reks is simply an example of a guy who has had no memorable moments whatsoever, all the more reason to re-invent him and repackage him into a hardcore guy.

Brodus Clay could easily ditch his ridiculous gimmick, which will have no future and is already getting old, with a quick heel turn ending up in the hardcore world. Match him up with the fan friendly Santino Marella, then pull a double cross on him, with weapons in hand. Bye bye Funkasaurus, hello hardcore prodigy.

This particular group of wrestlers do have the ability to become believable hardcore threats, but the limitations in the PG era will hurt their chances for a successful hardcore character.


WWE doesn't need to rely on the 46 year old Foley. He would be primarily used in an advisory capacity, with the ability to compete occasionally to help elevate someone in need of a push, as he did with Edge and Orton.

As it stands, WWE isn't going in the direction of bringing back hardcore wrestling full time, so how could Foley help?

As I said before, the no blood policy will clearly need to be modified if the WWE plans to dabble back into the world of hardcore wrestling. But I'm not suggesting we need "gruesome bloodbaths". But if you are going to put the participants into a structure which is in and of itself a weapon, you may as well utilize it to it's fullest capacity. And if that involves some minor blood spillage, and the realism that accompanies it, all the better.

Again, WWE's no blood policy is pretty strict, and you can't expect any blood in actual matches.

I realize this, I simply couldn't resist a dig at TNA Wrestling.

:thumbsup:

The return of hardcore wrestling could absolutely fit within today's WWE. They would have to be committed to it. They would have to execute it properly. And they would have to provide a 2010 version of it, not a 1990 version of it.

WWE has moved in a different direction, and as of right now, there isn't any room for a full time hardcore wrestling return.
 
Clarity - Both were excellent. Great use of bolded points! Oooh my fancy was tickled for sure. I'm gonna go with Habs on this one though. Loved the post with no quotes. Does wonders.

Point - hatehabsforever

Punctuality - Mitch was late once, and Habs wasn't. Plus he had one in a little over an hour after Mich. Nice quick draw.

Point - hatehabsforever

Informative - The outside source for December to Dismember was nice. It's a toss up as far as videos and pictures go. I liked the link from Mitch though.

Point - R.J. MacReady

Persuasion - This was a tough one. Both did a great job on both sides. I'm gonna side with Mitch on it though. With what there is right now, it may not be called hardcore, but come on, you've got all the makings of hardcore without going the extra distance with blood and unnecessary risks.

Points - R.J. MacReady

Let me say this. Habs did a great job. Each of his posts had me nodding my head a lot. Just unfortunately Mitch got me more. I thought it was very back and forth. Again, great job. That goes for the both of you.

CH David scores this R.J. MacReady 3, hatehabsforever 2.
 
Clarity- Both did well, but Habs was excellent. Far better than his first debate, glad to see you're not writing in such massive blocks of paragraphs.

-Habs

Punctuality- Habs was fast and on time.

-Habs

Informative- Mitch brought more real information. They both brought the imagery to support their stuff, but Mitch is the one who brought in his sources.

-Mitch

Persuasion- I have to go with Habs and while I don't want to sound so harsh, it wasn't a very hard decision. Habs did an excellent job arguing his point, though at times he can be a bit too wordy, but it really seemed like Mitch was more into explaining that the WWE wouldn't bring back Hardcore wrestling instead of arguing why they shouldn't.

-Habs

Nate scores it Mitch 1, Habs 4.
 
Clarity: hateshabs is my pick for this. He broke his stuff up really well with bold, images and videos. Good stuff from Mitch too though.

Punctuality: hateshabs was faster. Thus he gains the point.

Informative: Like the others, I favour Mitch for the fact that he had substance with his style.

Persuasion: Really, really hard. Both men brought a lot to the table. Both men ultimately argued their points superbly, but if I'm choosing someone, I have to go with hateshabs. His points had me agreeing all the way through, whereas I wasn't sure on quite a lot of what Mitch had to offer. His stuff was a wee bit shaky for me and as such, hateshabs wins.

FunKay Scores It: hateshabsforever: 4, Mitch: 1
 
Clarity: habs. He did the better job here of providing the superior posts when it comes to organization and style.

Punctuality: habs. He was on time.

Informative: Mitch. Very well done in his use of external sources for information.

Persuasive: Mitch. This one was close and I had to re-read it a few times to truly pick. Mitch's argument was just a tiny bit stronger.

I score it as: Mitch 3, habs 2. Very good debating by both of you!
 
Congratulations to hatehabsforever who defeats R.J. MacReady (Mitch) by a close score of 12-8. He will move onto Loser's bracket #25 to face Rohan where both their tournament lives will be at stake.

Great work, guys. A fine debate by you both of you.
 
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