Mark Madden discusses Hogan and the nWo

[y2empleh]

In Mark Madden's latest editorial, http://www.wrestlezone.com/editorials/article/wrestlings-last-great-angle-80257, he claims that nWo was the last great wrestling angle. In the same article he also claims that Hogan's involvement ultimately led to the destruction of that great angle.

"Hulk Hogan joining the nWo certainly provided a singular moment, definitely the most memorable in the angle’s history. But during the entire span of Hogan’s career in WCW, his involvement was the death knell for anything that worked.

Hogan disciples tend to forget that when Hogan joined WCW as a babyface, he got booed out of the building. When he turned heel, it gave the nWo that much more steam and credibility. But the key to the angle being prolonged was giving WCW some wins back, for the matchup to become competitive.

There were nights the nWo held off the whole company with baseball bats. WCW was made to look weak and inferior. The nWo was the windshield, WCW the bug. Not much of a rivalry. That needed to change.

Hall and Nash did their part. Remember when DDMe took them out with the diamond cutter? But Hogan, as always, had to be invincible."

I've always felt Hogan was nWo's savior and martyr. The Outsiders angle, as it was before Hogan's arrival, desperately needed a main event guy to take the helm. Like Madden said himself, Hogan provided the angle with the star power it needed. I believe without Hogan, the nWo would not have gotten as over as it did nor would it have sold the merchandise it did. However, hogan's death grip on wrestling by refusing to look weak in any capacity as long been documented and discussed throughout wrestling and in this online forum. So with that said. Was it Hogan that ultimately killed nWo? Was it too many players? Or did it simply run its course and die?

 

[RVDgurl]

Was Hulk Hogan the death of the nWo? In one word: no. Nash and Hall made a tremendous impact with a truly groundbreaking angle when they entered WCW as t he Outsiders. But the nWo absolutely reached their peak potential and became the biggest thing the wrestling business had ever seen with the addition of Hogan. Without researching any of the particulars, I would venture to say that the nWo generated as much or more money with the sale of tickets, PPV's and merchandise than anybody else in the business.

Mark Madden's editorial denotes that the WCW boys were booked to look weak and inferior. At first, that was the whole point of the angle. The nWo were there to "take over WCW". It was booked so that fans believed they would actually do it. This was not directly the downfall of the nWo.

The original concept of the nWo invasion was groundbreaking and it made sense for a long time. However, the nWo bandwagon was ridden a bit too long. The angle began to incorporate just about everyone in the company- and this was the downfall of the nWo.

Hall, Nash and Hogan had all been big stars while they were in the WWF, so their dominance was believeable. But Scott Norton? Virgil (or whatever they call him in WCW? Bubba Rogers? Seriously. The addition of lower mid card talent to the nWo is what killed it. It became over run with mediocre talent and it made the storyline competely too far fetched.

 

[JenovasWitness]

I wouldn't pin that on Hogan, personally. I mean, I'm no insider with special knowledge about the business like Madden appears to be, but I think what killed the nWo was when everyone began joining, then they had Wolfpac, Hollywood, LWO, nWo Elite, nWo 2000...

It basically got watered down to the point of farcical. If anything, Hogan turning heel and joining the nWo catapulted the angle into legendary status in the history of professional wrestling. No one saw it coming and I can still clearly hear and see the reaction from the live crowd that night. White hot heel heat, garbage being thrown in the ring, Hogan telling the fans to stick it...it was awesome.

 

[King Patrick Star]

I think Hogan to the N.W.O. is what Flair is to the Horsemen, HBK is to DX, HHH is to Evolution, and what Angle is to the M. E. Mob. What I’m talking about is the name value. They are the leaders and they are the reason why the Stable started out with success. Without the involvement of these men, these Stables would be nothing.

Now to the downfall, I think originally the New World Order was to be what Smackdown is today, a second brand. Somewhere along the lines, instead of going with the Brand route, it stalled and just got stuck as a Stable, only this time, it became a Stable the size of a Brand. I don’t think the different incarnations killed it. I think the size of the original version just blew up to an uncontrollable size. In fact, I believe the different reincarnations of the N.W.O. were pretty decent solutions to the problem. W.C.W. did not want to just kill off the popularity and heat of the Order, and having it divided keeps the Heel Heat on Hogan and keeps the popularity on Nash and Savage.

So, in conclusion, I think the size is what did it. One limo per Stable is enough. They sure did not need 3 or 4 pulling in.

 

[GSM]

Hulk Hogan destroyed the NWO ? Well I´d say no, Hulk Hogan joining the Outsiders actually was the moment of the creation of the NWO, without Hogan there would be no NWO.

Hulk Hogan turning on the fans was indeed the biggest angle so far, I give you that but without it the NWO would´ve died within one year.

Only Nash and Hall ? That would be the Outsiders, no NWO.

So what killed the NWO ? The huge number of members if you ask me, at the final days of the NWO it had like 30 members, people like Ted Dibiase and the 1-2-3 Kid and of course Hogan, Nash and Hall but it became ridicolous with all the no names that joined the NWO and watered down the original charisma they had before.

 

[damensr]

i personally loved the nWo, they were some of my favs wrestlers ever, when they slimed it down to just the elite hogan, nash, hall, steiner, bagwell (and lex i hate him) was by far the greatest stable ever period. i think mem is looking to do the same thing as nWo i think mem will hold all titles soon but as far as hogan killing it, no. hall didnt help any with his problems and haveing way to much crappy wrestlers is what did it i think. would have been nice if wwe had dont what we all wanted with nWo and had the nWo vrs. dx fued we (or at least i wanted)

 

[RH23]

No. Hogan was not the reason for the nWo's downfall. I think the main reasons were the following,

1.Way to many guys in the stable

2. The different incarnations of the stable

 

[Doomsday Device]

Well, the nWo in WCW was produced brilliantly. Its first 2 years of existence was awesome. Sure its well documented that Hogan as a babyface always wants to have the upper hand, never lose, and be invincible, but if you look closely at his matches when he was the nWo heel, he let anyone who was in the ring him kick his butt. Hogan as a heel had some matches against Luger, The Giant, Piper, Sting and all those guys handed Hogan his ass. I still remember when Giant used to stuff Hogans bandana down his throat and stomp Hogans fingers lol.

Sure adding nobobies like Vincent, the IRS guy, Konan, Fake Sting, Scott Norton(Sure the guy is a name in Japan or whatever but the guy looked like a nobody when he was with the nWo) watered down the strength of the nWo. It made it look like just anyone could join it.

What disappoints me is the February 2002 run in WWE, I couldnt believe my eyes when the 3 nWo originals made it back to the WWE. But it didnt last long and fell apart. Hall got fired from a wrestling promotion for the 13th time, Hogan had no choice but to turn face since the fans were cheering for him, and Nash usually gets injured just by sneezing.

Then later they added X Pac, and Booker T and Shawn and I was so disappointed with the whole thing I almost through my remote at the tv.

I thought the nWo would be around in WWE for at least a year. And it was good for only 5 weeks.

 

[mr.davidson]

Hogan was the NWO

If they didnt have him it would have never been as big as it was... I even think the oringinal angle was to use sting as it leader... But 2 use Hogan is what gave it its edge.... had they used sting or anyone else it would not of been as big as it was....

Like everyone else said to many people really watered the thing down....

Also the comment about Hogan not letting anyone beat him... thats just wrong.... I do recall hogan allowing Rowdy Pipper to beat him in the middle of the ring with his gay sleeper hold finishing move... Which was the stupidest thing I ever seen.... Hogan losing to a sleeper hold.. yeah right.... anyways.. the real downfall of the NWO was the WCW management they just screwed everything up in the end

 

[Doomsday Device]

Yep, In the Bischoff book Eric says that prior to the Bash at the Beach 96 event Sting had offered to volunteer and be the "third guy" just in case Hogan got cold feet and didnt go with it.

 

[King Patrick Star]

Whoa, that would have been something crazy. Sting being the third man would have blown the roof off, but I don’t think it would have worked as great as Hogan’s turn. If Sting was the third man, I think the impact would be there, but not like Superman joining “Lex Luthor and the Legion of Doom” big. I think it would have been just as good as the M. E. Mob in TNA today.

People, including me, say the size of the Order is what killed it, but always remember, it was supposed to be a second brand, not just a stable. If the N.W.O. only consisted of Hogan, Nash, Hall, the Giant, Pac, and say maybe Ted DiBiase and Vincent, it might not have gotten as big. Yes it would still be a Heel Stable led by the Real American, but I don’t think it would have lasted as long as it did.

As far as the incarnations, I think that’s what “saved it” to a certain extent and helped it last a little bit longer than it should have.

 

[The Roid Rage]

First I want you all to go and read his latest article. I am ashamed to even encourage this but to understand the following you must. Here is the link.

http://www.wrestlezone.com/editorials/article/wrestlings-last-great-angle-80257


I can't begin to tell you how tired of this bitter man's ravings I am. There is nothing but negativity regurgitating from him constantly, as he seems bent on the idea that all that was good in wrestling is gone, and mainly due to Vince McMahon and the WWE. I hope you read this Mr. Madden and respond. Don't take the easy cop-out of "your not worth my oh so valuable time, I'm too great for that" or anything of the sort. To ignore such a blatant calling out of your ego would only prove the lowly smart mark right, and show you to be everything I say you are. This isn't like the Miz calling out John Cena either, to refer to it as that would only elevate your status that is so very low. On with the show.


I pretty well had enough of you Mr. Madden after the article about Vickie Guerrero and her departure. Per usual you did nothing but bash McMahon for anything and everything he does (and you call him unoriginal and uncreative) and tried to make some kind of a martyr of Vickie Guerrero. The first thing I had to ask myself was A) Does this guy realize it is a show and that Vickie Guerrero obviously had to agree to do what happened, and more than that, that she probably has a sense of humor herself and found some hilarity in it? and B) Is he just trying to perpetuate this false hate of everything McMahon associated, and trying to get a rub from it somehow and look like some sort of thespian or something? You read way too deeply into all of it, and made yourself look horrible in the process. Were you writing an article for a kayfabe magazine, or an editorial? I couldn't tell the difference. All in all you came out looking like a bitter, dim witted man, with nothing better to do than bash those in higher standing than yourself. Now before you try to turn that on me, keep in mind, yours has been long coming.


I recall you writing some other hate-speech after the Guerrero one, I can't even remember anything about it other than you complaining, constantly. That seems to be all you do, complain and tear down people who are doing things you seem to only wish you could do. For instance McMahon, most of his stable of wrestlers, and his establishment in the WWE. Apparently all that his company is missing is your genius and he'd be on top of the world. Well, last time I checked Madden, Vince could buy your soul, and runs the biggest and most successful wrestling company on the planet of all time. He has managed to do all of that without you, or crack pots like you, so where do you get off with such brash criticism of him, his company, or his wrestlers. You couldn't do a tenth in the ring of his worst wrestler, or do his job, or the job of anyone he currently employs. You can chalk it up to politics all you want but the truth is loud mouth, know-it-all, wise-asses like you get no where, and that is why you are where you are. You don't know when to shut your mouth as you have shown over and over.


Oh, I just remembered your last tyraid, it was about TNA, and basically every aspect of it's existence. Where do you get off? What's wrong? You pissed off they haven't called you up for enlightenment either? Maybe in their position of dire straits they just don't have the strength to bow down to the almighty Madden? They just can't bring themselves to admit that they need you to guide them to the palace of wisdom. Please!!!


You are lucky that once upon a time the flailing WCW gave you a rub, something that you seem to have never let go of and hold up as some badge of honor, like it should gain you automatic acceptance amongst the scholars. WCW gave everyone a run ok, you happened to be in the right place at the right time to get the one opportunity, and guess what, just like you WCW failed. Looks like you weren't such a great catch after all. What are you going to say to that? Give me 101 excuses? That doesn't cut it. All you can do is point fingers at this guy and that guy, when ultimately in the end of the day there are 3 finger pointing right back at you. You just seem to have too big an ego which is probably an over compensation for low self-esteem, that clouds your vision and urges you to spew the nonsensical ranting that you do in a feeble attempt at looking like more than a can't hack it, never was, and never will be.


Now once again in this recent article you go on and on about you nostalgia for WCW and the NWO and yada yada yada. Everyone can appreciate that you were only employed by a big company once, and for that reason you feel it was the greatest thing ever basically because for a millisecond you were apart of it and graced them with your presence and knowledge, we should all be so lucky. Here's news flash Madden, Attitude Era/Monday Night Wars are over, and have been over for a long time. Unfortunately in a situation like that there has to be a winner and a loser, and wouldn't you know it, the losing team had you on it's sidelines. Here's a guy who is so stupid he get's canned because like I said he can't keep his mouth shut and had to talk trash about one of the in ring competitors he was supposed to be commentating on. Are you just pissed off that the WWE never needed a hack like you, and never gave you a chance? Are you the Vince Russo that never was but could have been? Like an out of shape Chuck Wepner or something? Were you just so unjustly tossed to the side that the only refuge you could find was disparaging the very company that you so longed to be apart of? Survey says? Yes indeed.


I can't believe you had the audacity to blame the shortcomings of the NWO and WCW in general on the shoulders of Hulk Hogan. If anything he was a big part of the NWO's success. With Hogan at the helm, people knew it was a serious force to be reckoned with, and that it meant business. If it was a big enough deal for Hulk Hogan to turn heel for it, it must have been legit, that is in the eyes of the viewer. Hall and Nash made the illusion and Hogan made it a clear vision, period. Also, part of the big reason that the whole thing worked to begin with was because to the viewers it looked like Hall and Nash were sent from WWF to take over WCW. WCW just banked off of the success of another company's superstars and that's it, Hogan being the biggest one. It had nothing to do with anything you cited. Your bitter disdain for Hogan and lack luster explanation and reasoning for your thoughts on the matter just further support my statements about you Mr. Madden.

WCW/NWO failed because of a lack of leadership, and overall organization. Hogan tried to be the leadership in that company, that is a publicly known fact, but one man can't do it all. I am not saying that Hogan was the greatest worker, or that he was so business savvy, or that he is even a nice guy. But, he did try to do all he could to make the company successful as long as he could. From his mouth he said " I took what I had learned from up north and tried to bring it down to WCW and apply it there " That may not be verbatim but it is a true statement.

To then go on and say and this is verbatim

In retrospect, you’d be foolish to conclude that anyone besides Hogan benefited from his WCW run. Sure, he was (and is) wrestling’s most recognizable character. But creatively, his selfishness ruined anything he was connected to. Financially, he took out so much money the company could never make it back.

No one but Hogan benefited from his WCW run huh? Well what about the guys that got their shots on T.V. and actually got exposure because people tuned in to watch what was going on with Hogan and the NWO? What about guys like Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Dean Malenko, Paul White, Booker T and so on. Guys that got the chance to be featured because the show did well enough to feature them, largely due to Hogan and the NWO. Hogan and the NWO was the hook, and the rest of the show was the line and sinker. Your statement is so poorly thought out, and so biased even for an editorial it's disgusting. Suppose someone actually took anything you said as credible? What would happen then? They would be completely misguided and confused about the wrestling business.


Let's tackle your statement about Hogan being creatively selfish, and it ruining everything he was connected to. You couldn't be further from the truth. At some point Hogan earned the right to have creative control, and I have heard plenty of guys including Hall and Nash say so. You act like Hogan began his career in WCW or something. Did you forget that he brought wrestling alongside Vince McMahon out of the dimly lit halls and into America's living room's and made Hulk Hogan and Hulkamania a household name? Did you forget that Hulk Hogan is the biggest name in wrestling history? If his years and years of loyal service to the business didn't earn him some creative control, than what by your unachievable standards does hot shot? If anyone earned the right to pick and choose his spots it's Hogan. I might not agree with every move he made but it was his right to do so, and whether you approve or not doesn't make it right or wrong.


Then on to the Finances aspect. If WCW was so drained as you put it, they never would have been able to get Hall, Nash, Luger, DiBiase, Waltman, Hennig, or pay the current stars they had and the many more they brought in. So, you are once again duped Mr. Madden. If anything the initial arrival of Hogan brought in plenty of money, and with the NWO payed everyone's check including yours, so you should buck up and pay some respect where it is due. Maybe Hogan was an asshole and I am not saying that he might not of been, I'm not nominating him for man of the year or anything, but you have to give credit where credit is due. After all, what great contribution did you ever make? Where would that company and the NWO have went without Hogan, we will never know, all we do know is, that with him it became the biggest deal of that time. Which leads me to my next execution of your foul and miserable words....


You dared to say that the NWO was the last good or great angle in wrestling? Where have you been, under a rock? The invasion angle was amazing, and helped a lot of people get themselves out there, not to mention kept people interested. The second run of NWO in WWE was a flop and that was because you folks over there at WCW beat it to death. You say it was the best angle, hell it was practically the only one on that show, and in truth that is just another big reason it all came tumbling down at WCW. What about Evolution, or the many feuds the Undertaker has been involved in? How about some of the work that Edge has put in, or Jericho with Michaels. What about Lesnar, and Angle, and Triple H? The list could go on and on until it became redundant. No matter what you say they have all been involved in great storylines, and worked them beautifully. The difference is simply the change of the times. Now days there doesn't need to be a big faction like the NWO, there is no Monday Night Wars going on ok, why can't you get it through your thick skull.

After all that the business changed. There was no longer any need to go to the extreme and often times inappropriate lengths that both companies went to in the MNW days. Now there is one true and rightful power, that being the WWE. It is not McMahon's fault either. If anything you can blame Ted Turner for it all. Had he not pushed the issue and tried to drive McMahon out of business things never would have went to the extremes they did, and maybe you would be just now getting to all the stuff we had then. However, Billionaire Ted had to get in a pissing match with the one and only Vince McMahon, and he lost. Plain and simple. McMahon obviously was doing everything right, and still is or else someone else would be there to topple him over. Nothing you say can change that, and nothing you say about The WWE, TNA or the wrestling business all together changes any of it. Both companies are putting out what they can, opposed to at one time when the WWF and WCW put out what they HAD to. Obviously if things were as bad as you put them no one would be in business. According to you Wrestling is like rock and roll after John Lennon died or something since the end of your cherished time at WCW.

You are a joke Madden, and nothing you say should be taken with more than a grain of salt as you are an idiot, you are incompetent, and as stated before a foul bitter man. Your focus seems to be to lead people into believing that things are worse than they are in what seems to be some feeble attempt to sabotage the WWE that has made it so clear that they do not need people like you. It all sounds like revenge from you. You obviously have some axe to grind and make it all too obvious. I remember reading your work once, and thinking "this guy is really on the ball with what he is saying" Unfortunately since then you have shown otherwise to me and millions others. You should only feel so lucky that anywhere values you enough to let you spew your hate in their space. You have been dealt with sir, and I hope you have something better to say next time. After all you know the saying " If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all"

 

[Real Lucha Guy]

WWE will always be a circus that treat wrestlers that work 300 days per year like crap and can't even match NHL salaries. Sad but true, that's one thing that hasn't change about the business.

 

[Slam Master]

The fact that Hogan's creative control made him a political cannon for not losing or always looking super human he was only part of the downfall equation. The programming became way too oversaturated with nWo. There was the nWo with a shitload of members and there was the wolfpac. Everyone wanted to join the nWo and there ended up being over a dozen members in each faction (and they all did the same thing).

When it first started as the Outsiders and Hogan, it was cutting edge, exciting, and great. They shoulda kept it that way, maybe adding one or two more members, but it got ridiculous.

All the nWo did was beat people unmercifully, do run-ins and sneak attacks, and cheat to win. All that cheap stuff got beat and done to death and they kept running with it. I remember watching every week and it was the same thing every week. That stuff is good to go over once in a while, but not on every show, and basically every match because besides the cruiserweights there was a good chance that there was an nWo member wrestling.

People think that the WWE is redundant now, they put the meaning to wrestling redundancy.

 

[Darrintr]

I would have to agree with the fact that the splitting of the nWo and the many factions and number of members was its downfall not Hogan. He is the one who helped bring the nWo into its own along with Hall and Nash. And to say that Hogan never put anyone over I noticed that no one has metioned the Nitro where he let that Joke of a wrestler Gilber...oops! sorry! Goldberg beat him in about 30 seconds and hold the US title and Heavyweight Title at the same time.
I was a fan of the nWo from its beginning, I jumped out of my chair and cheered when Hogan dropped that big leg drop on Savage at Bash at the Beach. I was a fan through the all factions and I think that the nWo is probably the greatest group in the history of pro wrestling. My favorite was the first group with Hogan, Hall, Nash, Bischoff, Dibiase, Syxx, Giant, Savage and Elizabeth, Kurt Henning, Rick Rude. That's the group they should have kept it at.