New York Region, Fourth Round: TLC: (2) Undertaker vs. (3) Kurt Angle

[Coco]

I'll agree that 'Taker doesn't win when it comes to quality of performance, however, he doesn't disappoint either.

How so? He takes real talents and drags them down to his level. The matches Taker has with a lot of guys are comparatively worse than the matches those men have with other top tier performers. How is that not disappointing?

Ah, the good ole Japan argument. I love this argument. It's what's always used to prove that someone who isn't a draw here in the states, actually is a draw, but we just don't know it.

I'm sorry you're ignorant. There. Happy?

You've seen that Angle can brawl, not that he is a better brawler than 'Taker. There's a difference.

It can never be proven that one person is a better brawler than another. Hell, I could say that 'Taker is every bit the submission wrestler that Angle is and you wouldn't be able to prove me wrong.

I'm sure I could take the time to quantify what makes a good brawler and a good submission specialist, watch every match either man has ever had, and use some sort of measurement to objectively determine the answer to this very dispute. Your "lack of imagination" here is obviously just you trying to cover for the fact that Angle would crush Taker if I developed such a measure.

If we're going to stick to the match and kayfabe discussion then why did you say all of that about you don't care about their gimmicks?

Because in kayfabe, Angle has employed brawling just as effectively as Taker. I'm sorry that I actually watch the matches and don't need the announcers to tell me who's good at what. I'm able to determine that using my superior judgment.

 

[SSJPhenom]

How so? He takes real talents and drags them down to his level. The matches Taker has with a lot of guys are comparatively worse than the matches those men have with other top tier performers. How is that not disappointing?

That's your opinion. As already stated, 'Taker has gotten the best performance from Batista that he has ever put on. Two classics with Michaels at 'Mania which is something that many of you around here say that Angle couldn't do. "It was a spotfest." I remember that always coming up when talking about Angle/Michaels WM 21. HHH's best performance at a 'Mania(17).

I could go on but this is getting old.

I'm sorry you're ignorant. There. Happy?

Let me clarify. Angle isn't a draw here in the states. To your point, however, whenever WWE goes over seas, 'Taker seems to remain one of their top draws.

I'm sure I could take the time to quantify what makes a good brawler and a good submission specialist, watch every match either man has ever had, and use some sort of measurement to objectively determine the answer to this very dispute. Your "lack of imagination" here is obviously just you trying to cover for the fact that Angle would crush Taker if I developed such a measure.

Tell you what, you give me 5 Angle matches to watch that best show his brawling ability and I will give you 5 of 'Taker's to counter. Then let's come up with some sort of way to measure said brawling ability.

Because in kayfabe, Angle has employed brawling just as effectively as Taker. I'm sorry that I actually watch the matches and don't need the announcers to tell me who's good at what. I'm able to determine that using my superior judgment.

You assume much about me. Coincidentally, your judgment must not be all that great. You seem to think that Angle could beat 'Taker in a brawl.

 

[Coco]

That's your opinion. As already stated, 'Taker has gotten the best performance from Batista that he has ever put on. Two classics with Michaels at 'Mania which is something that many of you around here say that Angle couldn't do. "It was a spotfest." I remember that always coming up when talking about Angle/Michaels WM 21. HHH's best performance at a 'Mania(17).

You want to compare the match with the lame padded cushion spot to Angle's fantastic, underrated matches with Triple H during the Angle/Steph saga? Really? I know everyone only remembers one of those because it happened at a big show, but that doesn't make it better.

Your nonsense talk about WrestleMania 21 shows exactly how little you know about wrestling. You think that pure wrestling marathon is a spotfest? Why would you even suggest the notion? Ugh. Pathetic.

As for Batista, I'll take his HIAC with Triple H any day of the week. WM23 gets overrated because people had abysmal expectations for Taker at that point. Them putting on something passable was such a surprise that people couldn't stop praising it. HIAC with Triple H was actually special though. Unique spots, affirmed Dave as a huge player, dramatically different from their first two matches, and essentially the perfect modern blow-off. There's no comparison: Taker didn't get Batista's best match. Batista carried Taker to something passable and revived Taker's fledgling reputation. That's the lowdown.

Let me clarify. Angle isn't a draw here in the states.

Prove Taker's a draw. Taker, not the company he works for. I defy you to.

Tell you what, you give me 5 Angle matches to watch that best show his brawling ability and I will give you 5 of 'Taker's to counter. Then let's come up with some sort of way to measure said brawling ability.

An absurd discussion. There are factors to control for here such as quality of opposition, what point Angle and Taker are at in their careers, etc. Additionally, we're better served examining the totality of each man's work and finding an average. Basically, we don't have the time or the man power to make science of this. But keep playing your games.

 

[SSJPhenom]

You want to compare the match with the lame padded cushion spot to Angle's fantastic, underrated matches with Triple H during the Angle/Steph saga? Really? I know everyone only remembers one of those because it happened at a big show, but that doesn't make it better.

I remember the Angle/Steph Saga and it wasn't all that special. Test ruined that.

Your nonsense talk about WrestleMania 21 shows exactly how little you know about wrestling. You think that pure wrestling marathon is a spotfest? Why would you even suggest the notion? Ugh. Pathetic.

You can't read can you? I never said what I thought about that match. I was one of the few around here that thought that Angle/Michaels was great.

In my post, I said that many of you around here said it was a spotfest. Learn to read dude.

As for Batista, I'll take his HIAC with Triple H any day of the week. WM23 gets overrated because people had abysmal expectations for Taker at that point. Them putting on something passable was such a surprise that people couldn't stop praising it. HIAC with Triple H was actually special though. Unique spots, affirmed Dave as a huge player, dramatically different from their first two matches, and essentially the perfect modern blow-off. There's no comparison: Taker didn't get Batista's best match. Batista carried Taker to something passable and revived Taker's fledgling reputation. That's the lowdown.

Again, opinion. At this point you'd say anything to try and discredit me. Like the comment above.

Btw, the only thing that Batista has ever carried in the world of wrestling is a damn championship. He's never carried a match in his life and the fact that you think that he carried 'Taker proves that you don't know anything about wrestling.

If Batista carried 'Taker at 'Mania 23 then HBK carried Cena. I better not say that though.

Prove Taker's a draw. Taker, not the company he works for. I defy you to.

I will. Give me a moment.

An absurd discussion. There are factors to control for here such as quality of opposition, what point Angle and Taker are at in their careers, etc. Additionally, we're better served examining the totality of each man's work and finding an average. Basically, we don't have the time or the man power to make science of this. But keep playing your games.

I'm sure that we could sit here and work all of that out if you wanted. You're the one that is so confident in Angle's brawling ability. I'd be interested to see how it turned out.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

If anyone can beat Kurt Angle in this match it would be Undertaker. The Deadman is one of the best of all time in dishing out punishment and Angle is one of the men who can take more of it than anyone.

This would be a match I would sell my Grandmother to see. I would expect Last Ride's from the ladder, Angle Slam's through tables, moonsaults from the ladder, DDT's on chairs, chokeslams through tables and many many more phenomenal spots.

However, a submission move could decide this one. If Angle can use the anklelock during this match, and I believe he could...then this could slow Taker down enough for Angle to use his explosive speed to take advantage and nail another Angle Slam, keeping the Deadman down and giving him the chance to climb the ladder.

I hate to say either man loses this one, both deserve to advance after this classic. BUT, I think Angle is better, and JUST manages to go through. There would be no shame in losing to Undertaker in this match, but I think Kurt has enough to win.

 

[El Rev sXe]

Well after thinking about it for 4-5 days (fuck it took me so long to realize) I've made up my mind. This would be one hell of a match, really back and forth. Both men in the past have proven that they can both go from technical wrestlers, to brawlers with no problem, with no doubts.

That being said, I will vote for Angle. I don't have big arguments, for me it's a tie unless we look back at both men respective's ladder matches. Taker is 1-1 (from what I remember), win against Hadry, lose against Edge due to interference. Now Angle (at least in WWE) he has one win, in he's only ladder match against Benoit, due also to interference. So by that logic, Angle could beat Taker with an interference wich I could easily see it with team Angel (Haas and Benjamin).


It's not a fancy argument, but this FINALLY worked for me, Angle goes to the next round.

 

[LSN80]

Both the record and the stipulation work in Angle's favor. As it's been said, Taker's always taken Angle to the limit, but its usually been Angle standing on top when all is said and done. Taker's record in gimmick matches isn't great overall, losing his only TLC match and being pushed to the limit by a low-midcarder in Jeff Hardy in 2002. Angle's won ladder matches in both TNA in two King of the Mountain matches, and against Chris Benoit in WWE in their three stages of hell match, with the help of Edge and Christian.

Both men have experience in ladder matches, so lets not kid ourselves about the stipulation here. Taker lost his one TLC match to Edge, but only with heavy interference. Taker wouldnt go down easily, but I still think this is Kurt's match match to lose. In their last match against one another in WWE, Angle won in a highly contested affair at No Way Out 2006. Angle's seemed to have Taker's number over the years, and I don't think this would be different. I could see Undertaker winning this, but Im going with Angle in a highly contested one, likely with a controversial finish as is the norm between the two.

 

[Tastycles]

Undertaker is quite possibly the worst big name gimmick match wrestler of all time - he'd have a losing record were it not for his Hardcore title reign, which allowed for wins over people like Spike Dudley. Score. That reign ended with a defeat to Maven, by the way. His record in ladder matches is patchy. He lost to Edge and barely beat a midcard Jeff Hardy. It's all well and good saying that Edge had a lot of inteference, but it was from the likes of Curt Hawkins, who's hardly the greatest threat. Angle, on the other hand, has proven himself in gimmick matches and has actually won a ladder match. He has all the attributes of a typical winner in this matchup and beat the Undertaker several times over the years.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

Undertaker's Hell in a Cell matches have proven that he can get extreme when he needs to. But I can just imagine Kurt Angle hitting that Moonsault off the ladder and picking up the win... Close call, but Angle is the more athletic of the two by far, and probably has the advantage in a TLC match. Taker could make life hell for Angle and put him in a lot of pain, but I see Angle winning that match...