[Official] Jushin Liger To The Sweet 16 Campaign HQ

[Cena's Little Helper]

Dear Fellow WZ Forum Members,

I am not an idiot. I am fully aware that the Japanese wrestler Jushin Liger, arguably the greatest cruiserweight of all time, has no chance in hell of winning this upcoming WZ tournament. However, in the upcoming weeks, it is my goal to convince all of you that he deserves a spot in the final sixteen. So, if you put your heart into campaigning for one wrestler, put it into campaigning for Hogan, Austin, or The Rock. However, if your heart is big enough to campaign for two wrestlers, make sure that second wrestler is Jushin "Thunder" Liger:

 

[MattMoses]

Jushin Liger was one of the first wrestlers I ever saw back in WCW in the early 90's. I recall his feud with Pillman very well, which I thought was fantastic. His later WCW run was pretty forgettable, though I remember some awful storyline with Juventud Guerrera with a bottle of tequila. I quite enjoyed his rise to the top during the Super J Cup 1995 where he had some great matches.

But I'm going to be honest, I don't see him making the top 16. The casual, more younger wrestling fans don't really know him all that well, and outside of a few matches and feuds, he's not really done anything worthy of knowing about.

 

[Father:_Polley]

Dear Fellow WZ Forum Members,

I am not an idiot. I am fully aware that the Japanese wrestler Jushin Liger, arguably the greatest cruiserweight of all time, has no chance in hell of winning this upcoming WZ tournament. However, in the upcoming weeks, it is my goal to convince all of you that he deserves a spot in the final sixteen. So, if you put your heart into campaigning for one wrestler, put it into campaigning for Hogan, Austin, or The Rock. However, if your heart is big enough to campaign for two wrestlers, make sure that second wrestler is Jushin "Thunder" Liger:

Nice to see you're active about promoting Liger. To be honest, I actually agree he probably is good enough to make it, but he's just not more popular than the Savages, Hogans. He even has rivalry in his country with Inoki and Muta being more reknowned names than himself. A good run is needed, but I look forward to seeing you try to persuade.

 

[klunderbunker]

I have Liger on my list. he's far too solid to not make a good run here. Sweet 16 is a possibility, but he'll need a lot of luck.

 

[Mr. TM]

I actually did not put Liger on my list. I probably should have, but I just have a mindset against putting Japanese on my list. I know this makes me a poor fan for not being diverse, but I am looking more towards wrestlers that were in the WWE/WCW for a long period of time. I would however vote for him over a lot of people in the tournament. He should make the top 32 if he isn't met with resistance, and he has a chance to make the sweet 16.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Who? See the problem here is most people haven't heard of, or don't care enough about Japanese wrestlers to put them over someone else. Usually, if I don't have know enough about 1 of the wrestlers in a pairing I won't vote in that, but most people will. If they saw say "CM Punk vs. Jushin Liger", CM Punk would probably get their vote because he's familiar to them, as opposed to the Japanese guy who may be better. One of the points of the tournament are to research wrestlers you may not know a lot about - I'll make him one of the ones I look at. But you can't expect many to do that - is there enough people who will to combat those that won't?

 

[Shadowmancer]

Yeah I will push for Liger to get to the 16. I know how he works and what he has done, and Will be pushing for him to make it that far, unless he meets up with Steve Corino. And barring Japanese Wrestlers because you don't know them, try and take a holistic approach to Wrestling and you look at what you see regularly with a better eye for what they are doing. Im just scratching the surface with Japanese wrestling for me. I haven't even started looking at Mexican wrestling as a different entity other than the odd match and a look through a book on Lucha Libre that was put out not too long ago.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I swear to God, if this guy is as disappointing as Kenta Kobashi, I'm getting on the next plane and kicking you all in the nuts.

 

[NSL]

I compiled my list by how well I thought the guy was in the ring, mixed with how much I liked them, plus how important they are to the world of wrestling.

Liger is extremely important to the history of cruiserweight wrestling, and wrestling all over Japan. He was amazing in the ring. But, except for some crap stuff in WCW, I never saw much of him. So, I left him off. I'll heavily consider him against almost anybody, but I don't know if I could vote for him.

Ultimo Dragon FTW

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Jushin Liger was one of the first wrestlers I ever saw back in WCW in the early 90's. I recall his feud with Pillman very well, which I thought was fantastic. His later WCW run was pretty forgettable, though I remember some awful storyline with Juventud Guerrera with a bottle of tequila. I quite enjoyed his rise to the top during the Super J Cup 1995 where he had some great matches.

But I'm going to be honest, I don't see him making the top 16. The casual, more younger wrestling fans don't really know him all that well, and outside of a few matches and feuds, he's not really done anything worthy of knowing about.

I don't want to call into doubt your wrestling knowledge, as it seems that you make good posts. But, saying that Liger hasn't "done anything worthy of knowing about" makes it obvious that you know, at best, very little about puroresu.

Who? See the problem here is most people haven't heard of, or don't care enough about Japanese wrestlers to put them over someone else. Usually, if I don't have know enough about 1 of the wrestlers in a pairing I won't vote in that, but most people will. If they saw say "CM Punk vs. Jushin Liger", CM Punk would probably get their vote because he's familiar to them, as opposed to the Japanese guy who may be better. One of the points of the tournament are to research wrestlers you may not know a lot about - I'll make him one of the ones I look at. But you can't expect many to do that - is there enough people who will to combat those that won't?

I have much love and respect for your wrestling knowledge and all you do for the forums, but please look at the comment I made above. And, please don't take this the wrong way, but, if you don't know who Jushin Liger is, then you can't consider yourself a true connoisseur of professional wrestling. However, I want to make it known that I admire the fact that you will look up information about a wrestler you know little about.

Before I go into full campaign mode, I want to make sure that Liger actually makes it into the tournament. However, I will inform you of three facts about him right now:

1) His character is based off of an anime program that aired from 1989 to 1990.

2) He is the inventor of the Shooting Star Press.

3) When Pro Wrestling Illustrated released their list of the Top 500 Wrestlers of the PWI Years in 2003, he was ranked #12. Only two other Japanese wrestlers were ranked ahead of him: Antonio Inoki at #5 and Mitsuharu Misawa at #6.

I swear to God, if this guy is as disappointing as Kenta Kobashi, I'm getting on the next plane and kicking you all in the nuts.

Thank you for taking the time to look him up.

I compiled my list by how well I thought the guy was in the ring, mixed with how much I liked them, plus how important they are to the world of wrestling.

Liger is extremely important to the history of cruiserweight wrestling, and wrestling all over Japan. He was amazing in the ring. But, except for some crap stuff in WCW, I never saw much of him. So, I left him off. I'll heavily consider him against almost anybody, but I don't know if I could vote for him.

Ultimo Dragon FTW

I respect your opinion about Ultimo Dragon. However, as I said in my opening post to this thread, Jushin Liger is arguably the greatest cruiserweight of all time. And, even though Ultimo Dragon is a great wrestler, in my opinion, he pales in comparison to Jushin Liger. The only cruiserweight that has come to have as much significance as Jushin Liger in the past 10 or so years is Rey Mysterio, Jr.

 

[OIL]

Who? See the problem here is most people haven't heard of, or don't care enough about Japanese wrestlers to put them over someone else. Usually, if I don't have know enough about 1 of the wrestlers in a pairing I won't vote in that, but most people will. If they saw say "CM Punk vs. Jushin Liger", CM Punk would probably get their vote because he's familiar to them, as opposed to the Japanese guy who may be better. One of the points of the tournament are to research wrestlers you may not know a lot about - I'll make him one of the ones I look at. But you can't expect many to do that - is there enough people who will to combat those that won't?

I doubt it. It's up to the person really.

I guess you gotta tell them. It's part of the fun.

 

[klunderbunker]

Sadly enough Becca is right. People that know something about Lyger know that he's one of the best cruiserweights of all time and may even be better than Rey used to be. However, he's not that well known in this country, which is a shame. He'll likely go out early to someone undeserving.

 

[Harthan]

I plan to push Liger until he meets someone clearly dominant. But I'll put him over any light heavyweight he meets except for Benoit or Eddie. With the final three being solely off of more international exposure.

 

[Thriller Ant]

I will also push him, but it will be tough for him to get to the sweet 16. I haven't seen a lot of his matches, but I do remember seeing one against Rey Mysterio that blew my mind. Hopefully others do their research, because I definitely think he is worthy of at least getting to the final 16.

 

[klunderbunker]

As always with tournaments, the draw will determine almost everything. His seeding will mean a lot. If he gets someone like Louie Spicolli he'll dominate, but if he draws Bret Hart, his chances are over already. Liger could make a solid run, but it's all up in the air. I'd love to see him go deep, but I'm not sure it'll happen.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I don't want to call into doubt your wrestling knowledge, as it seems that you make good posts. But, saying that Liger hasn't "done anything worthy of knowing about" makes it obvious that you know, at best, very little about puroresu.



I have much love and respect for your wrestling knowledge and all you do for the forums, but please look at the comment I made above. And, please don't take this the wrong way, but, if you don't know who Jushin Liger is, then you can't consider yourself a true connoisseur of professional wrestling. However, I want to make it known that I admire the fact that you will look up information about a wrestler you know little about.

Before I go into full campaign mode, I want to make sure that Liger actually makes it into the tournament. However, I will inform you of three facts about him right now:

1) His character is based off of an anime program that aired from 1989 to 1990.

2) He is the inventor of the Shooting Star Press.

3) When Pro Wrestling Illustrated released their list of the Top 500 Wrestlers of the PWI Years in 2003, he was ranked #12. Only two other Japanese wrestlers were ranked ahead of him: Antonio Inoki at #5 and Mitsuharu Misawa at #6.

You have worded this respectfully, I thank you for that. However, the part I've bolded, what does that mean, exactly? I'm sure a big majority of people who watch WWE have no clue who these Japanese wrestlers are, and it's just the way things go. Has he ever been in WWE? If not, where else would I know about him, or have heard of him? As I've said, I'll look him up if he's in the tournament. But I've never pretended to know anything about most Japanese wrestlers, because I'm sure that entails watching a Japenese promotion - something I'll probably never do.

 

[ad21k]

Although he was one of the better crusierweights to suggest he gets to the top 16 alongside the biggest names in wrestling history is absurd.

 

[NSL]

Although he was one of the better crusierweights to suggest he gets to the top 16 alongside the biggest names in wrestling history is absurd.

We're not going by names. We're going by wrestling ability.

Yes, guys like Cena, Hogan, Hart, Flair, and Sting will get through on their names, but they're also great in-ring guys, that deserve it.

Jushin Liger is one of the best wrestlers, and with the two rounds being decided in gimmick matches, there's a chance he can steal a few wins.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

You have worded this respectfully, I thank you for that. However, the part I've bolded, what does that mean, exactly? I'm sure a big majority of people who watch WWE have no clue who these Japanese wrestlers are, and it's just the way things go. Has he ever been in WWE? If not, where else would I know about him, or have heard of him? As I've said, I'll look him up if he's in the tournament. But I've never pretended to know anything about most Japanese wrestlers, because I'm sure that entails watching a Japenese promotion - something I'll probably never do.

No, Jushin Liger has never stepped into a WWE ring. And, if this is all the wrestling that you watch, then my apologies for being presumptuous. However, it's not like Jushin Liger is some unsung hero in the wrestling world. He's a pretty big deal. More than anything, I just think this boils down to a generational difference, something that Japanese wrestlers in the English-speaking world are, unfortunately, susceptible to. But, even casual fans of wrestling that are my age (in their twenties) know of two Japanese wrestlers: The Great Muta and Jushin Liger.

I think a comparison would be apt here. Let's say wrestlers are songs, and iTunes offered an "ESSENTIALS" of Wrestlers of the 90s. As everyone who is familiar with iTunes knows, "ESSENTIALS" break down the songs they contain into three categories: The Basics, Next Steps, and Deep Cuts. Within the theoretical "ESSENTIALS" entitled Wrestlers of the 90s, Jushin Liger would be in The Basics category.

 

[Hyorinmaru]

Her is one of the best cruiserweights and he has my vote up until he faces someone better.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

He's got long hair and a bald patch, not cool. If only Brutus Beefcake was still active.

 

[Gelgarin]

Well it's the first campaign to get me even remotely interested, so I guess that's something.

I've got to admit, I'm seriously conflicted here. On the one hand, Liger is a semi obscure Japanese guy, which instinctively makes me want to vote for him, if only to counter the legions of whooping ignorance out there.

That being said, I honestly don't think Liger was that big a deal. Westerns fans have a tendency to latch on to those Japanese stars who spend extended periods on our side of the world, and assume that those names were the best Japan has to offer. I've lost count of the number of times I've encountered somebody who would name Liger, Tajiri or Muta as the greatest Japanese star of all time... but if you take a star like K-Ness, nobody even knows their name.

Liger was a decent cruiser weight. If he hadn't come to the US, more or less nobody on this forum would know who he was. Show me a copy of the Dragon Gate rosta and I can pick out half a dozen cruiser weights outperform Jushin on a night to night basis. I allways felt that Liger was a guy who rode him gimmick, and unlike Tiger Mast I, didn't have the ability to back it up.

That being said, I can guarantee that I'll vote for him, right up until the point he opposes somebody who I actually like. So I guess you can call that my support. Props for pushing somebody who actually needs it, and not just trying to take credit for the winning horse.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Well it's the first campaign to get me even remotely interested, so I guess that's something.

I've got to admit, I'm seriously conflicted here. On the one hand, Liger is a semi obscure Japanese guy, which instinctively makes me want to vote for him, if only to counter the legions of whooping ignorance out there.

That being said, I honestly don't think Liger was that big a deal. Westerns fans have a tendency to latch on to those Japanese stars who spend extended periods on our side of the world, and assume that those names were the best Japan has to offer. I've lost count of the number of times I've encountered somebody who would name Liger, Tajiri or Muta as the greatest Japanese star of all time... but if you take a star like K-Ness, nobody even knows their name.

Liger was a decent cruiser weight. If he hadn't come to the US, more or less nobody on this forum would know who he was. Show me a copy of the Dragon Gate rosta and I can pick out half a dozen cruiser weights outperform Jushin on a night to night basis. I allways felt that Liger was a guy who rode him gimmick, and unlike Tiger Mast I, didn't have the ability to back it up.

That being said, I can guarantee that I'll vote for him, right up until the point he opposes somebody who I actually like. So I guess you can call that my support. Props for pushing somebody who actually needs it, and not just trying to take credit for the winning horse.

Thanks for the support, but I find it very hard to take you serious on Liger not being able to back up his gimmick. Without Liger, there wouldn't even be a Dragon Gate promotion. Sure, the wrestlers on its roster pretty much all come from Ultimo Dragon's school, but their repertoires consist of nothing but moves that Liger either pioneered or made popular. And, which Tiger Mask are you talking of? There's been more than one.

Furthermore, Liger's moveset doesn't just consist of aerial maneuvers. He is a strong and compactly built wrestler. How many other cruiserweights do you know of that could powerbomb Samoa Joe?

 

[Gelgarin]

Thanks for the support, but I find it very hard to take you serious on Liger not being able to back up his gimmick. Without Liger, there wouldn't even be a Dragon Gate promotion. Sure, the wrestlers on its roster pretty much all come from Ultimo Dragon's school, but their repertoires consist of nothing but moves that Liger either pioneered or made popular. And, which Tiger Mask are you talking of? There's been more than one.

Furthermore, Liger's move set doesn't just consist of aerial maneuvers. He is a strong and compactly built wrestler. How many other cruiser weights do you know of that could powerbomb Samoa Joe?

To deal with the direct questions first... I'm talking about the original Tiger Mask, hence why I wrote "Tiger Mask I". That being said, Tiger Mask IV would be another perfectly acceptable example of a guy with a cartoon based gimmick (although the Tiger Mask dynasty has rather transcended its origins) who has the technical credentials to back it up. Hell, whilst I'm rattling them off, I'll throw out my personal favorite, Dragon Kid as well. Although in his case I think the cartoon was based off of him, rather than the other way round.

Cruiser weights who could power bomb Joe... well I could rattle off a list of people weighing 220lb (A limit I strongly surspect Liger crossed a few times in his career) or less who could manage it, mosting because of the lifting dynamic of the power bomb.

As for your comments pertaining to the array of moves that Liger made popular... I think it's a very nice example of what I was talking about in my original statement. Liger did a great deal that was fresh and creative to an American audience. When he was wrestling in Japan, there was comparatively little that he could do that couldn't be seen from a dozen or so other cruiser weights, who people don't acknowledge the influence of because they never worked in the US.

As for Liger's relationship Dragon's gate. In a typical DG show I can guarantee that you'll find more moves that were invented by Lou Thesz that you will by Jushin Liger, that doesn't make Thesz responsible for the promotion. (Actually, Lou Thesz was responsible for popularising wrestling in Japan, so I guess you could say that he was... but you get my point).

Liger was by no means bad. By today's standard he's fantastic. But his high profile name has far more to do with his time in the US, and his association with a highly popular animated series, that to do with his wrestling ability. Shiro Koshinaka was a better cruiser weight, and did considerably more for the conception of the style; yet nobody over here's ever heard of him.

Liger should get the credit he's due, but he shouldn't be hyped above his ability, just because the alternatives didn't get on a boat.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

To deal with the direct questions first... I'm talking about the original Tiger Mask, hence why I wrote "Tiger Mask I". That being said, Tiger Mask IV would be another perfectly acceptable example of a guy with a cartoon based gimmick (although the Tiger Mask dynasty has rather transcended its origins) who has the technical credentials to back it up. Hell, whilst I'm rattling them off, I'll throw out my personal favorite, Dragon Kid as well. Although in his case I think the cartoon was based off of him, rather than the other way round.

Apologies for not noticing the I behind Tiger Mask. But, what does Satoru Sayama have to his name besides a couple of great matches with Dynamite Kid in the early 80s? If you would have said Tiger Mask II, I would have been a little more convinced, as I don't think Liger can compare to Misawa.

As for your comments pertaining to the array of moves that Liger made popular... I think it's a very nice example of what I was talking about in my original statement. Liger did a great deal that was fresh and creative to an American audience. When he was wrestling in Japan, there was comparatively little that he could do that couldn't be seen from a dozen or so other cruiser weights, who people don't acknowledge the influence of because they never worked in the US.

Liger's been wrestling since 1984. His prime was from 1989 to about 1995. I'm not one to live by what Dave Meltzer says, but I am positive of the fact the he wouldn't have sung Liger's praises as much as he did during this time if he wasn't the best Japanese cruiserweight. Furthermore, being asked to come from Japan to wrestle in America is usually a sign that you're quite good, as Japanese wrestlers surely are not brought over for their mic skills and charisma. Why were none of these other cruiserweights asked by WCW to come over instead of Liger?

As for Liger's relationship Dragon's gate. In a typical DG show I can guarantee that you'll find more moves that were invented by Lou Thesz that you will by Jushin Liger, that doesn't make Thesz responsible for the promotion. (Actually, Lou Thesz was responsible for popularising wrestling in Japan, so I guess you could say that he was... but you get my point).

You got me here, as I hardly know anything about Lou Thesz. So, I can't really make a comparison.

Liger was by no means bad. By today's standard he's fantastic. But his high profile name has far more to do with his time in the US, and his association with a highly popular animated series, that to do with his wrestling ability. Shiro Koshinaka was a better cruiser weight, and did considerably more for the conception of the style; yet nobody over here's ever heard of him.

Liger should get the credit he's due, but he shouldn't be hyped above his ability, just because the alternatives didn't get on a boat.

Jushin Liger the animated show was on for less than a year. Thus, I would hardly call his association with this show a reason for his enduring popularity. Also, in terms of his high profile status being because of his time in the U.S., his 11 reigns as NJPW Junior Heavyweight Champion beg to differ.

I'll look up Koshinaka.