Phoenix Region, Miami Subregion: First Round: (12)Ted DiBiase vs. (21)JBL

[The Chosen One of WZ]

Funny how these two meet considering the money gimmick

I would see JBL winning the match. MDM is good but i would expect JBL to hit him with the Closeline from Hell and end it at the 14 min mark.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

This one was a tough vote... but it went with Dibiase in a close one. It's power vs. intelligence. It's a massive clothesline vs. a sleeper hold. It's fat cat vs. Texas Millionaire. It's just going to be a match of stamina. 20 minutes in, and Dibiase would be fine... JBL would be nearly gassed if not totally gassed. I can safely give the edge to Dibiase with a roll up with a handful of tights at about the 16 minute mark.

 

[Muffin Top Merkley]

Some have said that JBL was only champion because there was no one else available. I don't agree with that statement at all and when it comes down to championship accomplishment, JBL would be the winner.

However, both DiBiase and JBL had more or less identical gimmicks, so my voting will be based on who was more successful with their gimmick. Without a doubt, DiBiase was hated alot more than JBL.

DiBiase is one of my favorite heels of all time due to the pure evil with all of his actions. Everyone knew that JBL had money, but DiBiase showed that money and greed could corrupt the most honest of people.

There is no denying that everyone has a price, and DiBiase used that to manipulate the game in his favour.

 

[hatehabsforever]

This was a pretty tough one, as I feel both guys were pretty comparable in the ring. I am not surprised that the voting in the poll here is nearly dead even. Ted DiBiase is a Hall of Famer. Then again, I am certain that JBL will be as well. DiBiase was evil incarnate, but the last time I checked, JBL wasn't exactly roses and sunshine either. Both guys spent time in the solo ranks, and both guys were involved significantly in the tag team division. In the end, though, I went with JBL, simply because he reinvented himself so many times. He was pretty significant to his brand and held the hardware for a significant period of time.

I see a long, drawn out affair, but in the end, a clothesline from hell will be the difference here, with JBL edging out DiBiase by a hair.

 

[Big Sexy]

For those voting JBL because of the title reign, you have to look at the time periods these guys had their primes in. Ted Dibiase's prime was roughly from 1987 when he entered the WWF until about the time his feud with Dusty Rhodes was culminating around the end of 1990. During that time period there was only 1 world title and roughly 4 annual ppv's. The biggest thing I'd like to point out however, is the fact that ZERO heels legitimately won the world title in that time period. Randy Savage became a heel over time with the belt but he was a face when he won it.

During JBL's prime from the mid to late 2000's there were 2 world titles, roughly 12 annual ppvs (though the brand split was in effect during his reign so we'll say about 8), and heels were winning titles all the time. It also helped that during the time he became champion, all of the big heel names on the Smackdown brand were gone. Brock Lesnar was gone, Kurt Angle was doing the GM thing, and most of the other potential main event guys (Booker T, Eddie Guerrero, Undertaker, were all faces). JBL was the perfect example of right place right time. Now I'm not going to sit here and say his title reign sucked because it was an alright title reign but if you think he was anymore then a place holder between Lesnar, who was gone, and Cena, who wasn't quite ready yet, then you are sadly mistaken.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

For those voting JBL because of the title reign, you have to look at the time periods these guys had their primes in. Ted Dibiase's prime was roughly from 1987 when he entered the WWF until about the time his feud with Dusty Rhodes was culminating around the end of 1990. During that time period there was only 1 world title and roughly 4 annual ppv's. The biggest thing I'd like to point out however, is the fact that ZERO heels legitimately won the world title in that time period. Randy Savage became a heel over time with the belt but he was a face when he won it.

During JBL's prime from the mid to late 2000's there were 2 world titles, roughly 12 annual ppvs (though the brand split was in effect during his reign so we'll say about 8), and heels were winning titles all the time. It also helped that during the time he became champion, all of the big heel names on the Smackdown brand were gone. Brock Lesnar was gone, Kurt Angle was doing the GM thing, and most of the other potential main event guys (Booker T, Eddie Guerrero, Undertaker, were all faces). JBL was the perfect example of right place right time. Now I'm not going to sit here and say his title reign sucked because it was an alright title reign but if you think he was anymore then a place holder between Lesnar, who was gone, and Cena, who wasn't quite ready yet, then you are sadly mistaken.

THIS is the best argument I've read yet.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but Ted DiBiase was so much better than JBL, in every aspect of pro wrestling. If you're holding titles against DiBiase, you need to reconsider. NO ONE held titles between 1987 and 1990. Savage beat DiBiase in an absolute war (where Hogan actually hit DiBiase with a chair, helping Savage) at WMIV. That was really the only serious opportunity DiBiase was given, and he didn't win because heels did not win in the main event at WrestleMania back then. It just didn't happen.

Outside of The Ultimate Warrior, no one went over Hogan, clean, at that point in time. You have to understand today is nothing like it was back then.

Also, watch some DiBiase matches if you're not familiar. The guy could work circles around JBL. I like Bradshaw, but DiBiase was better. Period.

 

[shattered dreams]

Not to beat a dead horse but all that still is only part of the equation. Titles and winning are part of prowrestling. Even if you call that close to even there is still the obvious problem of the actual match. It seems like most people voting are fully aware that just having that title does not make JBL superior. They also recognize that the claims that DiBiase is significantly better than JBL in these other areas are exaggerated fanboy statements. So call all that stuff even and figure out what would happen in the match. Kayfabe JBL would win because so much of what they both use is neutralized but JBL can fall back on his brawler abilities so he gets the vote.

 

[Big Sexy]

Not to beat a dead horse but all that still is only part of the equation. Titles and winning are part of prowrestling. Even if you call that close to even there is still the obvious problem of the actual match. It seems like most people voting are fully aware that just having that title does not make JBL superior. They also recognize that the claims that DiBiase is significantly better than JBL in these other areas are exaggerated fanboy statements. So call all that stuff even and figure out what would happen in the match. Kayfabe JBL would win because so much of what they both use is neutralized but JBL can fall back on his brawler abilities so he gets the vote.

Actually if you aren't going by the world title reign then there is absolutely nothing JBL has over Dibiase. This is heel vs heel so the typical cheating ways to win for both men are mostly irrelevant. Basically you have to go to who was better in the ring and on the mic and Ted Dibiase was superior in both aspects. JBL had brawling abilities but Ted Dibiase was no slouch either. people seem to think the guy was a little cowardly heel but Dibiase was 6'3 260. He could brawl with the best of them as well. Dibiase was just flat out better then JBL.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Kayfabe JBL would win because so much of what they both use is neutralized but JBL can fall back on his brawler abilities so he gets the vote.

By brawling, do you mean punches and kicks? If you do, DiBiase has been punched and kicked by bigger and badder than JBL.

Also, this is a wrestling match. Rules apply. It's not a street fight, or a last man standing match. DQ's are in play.

When it comes to pure, in-the-ring wrestling, JBL is completely overmatched. DiBiase was one of the smartest, most cunning in-ring tacticians of his time. In terms of pure, technical wrestling, which is what this first round match is about, DiBiase is the clear favorite. Also, you can take JBL cheating and toss that shit right out the window. If there's a trick to be played while the ref isn't looking, it's DiBiase who's hitting first.

 

[Janice]

This is one of those matches that you almost dream about. It is two gimmicks revolving around the green stuff, money that is. They are similar but also so different because one is about the old school, technical side of wrestling while the other is the big bad brawler who will clothesline you straight to hell. Ted Dibiase was a manager for a lot of his career and he was one of the best of them but Ted knew who to wrestle and who not to and you'd rarely see him looking across the ring to a huge powerhouse or monster. He would have to find a way to apply his cobra clutch to the six foot six, two hundred and ninety pound businessman and I'd love to see him actually connect with it. So then Ted is going to have to find something else to finish him off with and in that split second, he'll be getting slaughtered with a lariat or powerbomb, Layfield style and both of them he can easily execute.

I honestly believe both men would have someone ready to come to the ring and help them, whether they asked or bribed, they'd have backup most likely. So you can't use that as an excuse and while Ted Dibiase has a pretty known name, so does John Bradshaw Layfield however. His connection with the Heartbreak Kid engaged many and I've been hearing a lot of "Ted Dibiase was truly evil" but wasn't JBL? He made Shawn's life a living hell, made fun of just about every crowd, came out in a damn limo and called himself the "Wrestling... God" every time he had the chance. Whatever he would do to get his hands on a title, I have no doubt he'd do and if the amount of heat he would get the second that cowbell rang through the speakers of any arena is any indication, he's a lot more "evil" than all of you are giving him credit for. He had no remorse and he sure is hell didn't care what you thought, because only his opinion mattered.

Both of them are all about the cash, both of them care about themselves first and JBL is going to eventually land himself in the Hall of Fame just like Ted. Is Dibiase a little more ring smart than his opponent? Sure. But JBL has signature moves that only takes seconds to execute and his clothesline can end a match in a second, whenever he wants to try and nail it. Ted on the other hand, has a moveset full of moves that take a while to set up or moves that need his opponent to be doing this or that. It's even and I'm not about to say that Ted isn't a legend but by the skin of John's teeth, he'll sneak by with a last minute Clothesline To Hell to get the win.

 

[shattered dreams]

but Dibiase was 6'3 260.

And JBL was 6'6 290. If DiBiase chooses to brawl then he loses. He also doesn't have a lot of choices besides brawling as you correctly point out. There is a difference between skilled in the ring and likely to win a match. A modest advantage, often even a significant advantage, in technical wrestling doesn't win matches. There are a ton of vanilla midgets that are vastly more skilled in the ring than <insert random bigger guy>. That does not mean they would defeat him, especially in a kayfabe setting.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I have to go with Ted Snr here.

Firstly, career - Ted spent all of his career in a more prominent position on the card meaning that JBL had a smaller period were the two guys were on a similar level.

Secondly, storyline - JBL was about making money whereas DiBiase was about buying, "Everyone has a price". If Teddy had been about when John held the Big Gold Belt, he'd have bought the title and JBL being all about the money would happily take the bung.

Thirdly, ability - DiBiase was great to watch in the ring and he had notable feuds with Hogan, Savage, Roberts and Dusty Rhodes (which was kind of logical as some of the original 'Million Dollar Man' gimmick were inside insults of the then NWA mainstay 'Dream'). As part of Money Inc, with IRS he faced programs against iconic teams like the Roadwarriors, Nasty Boys, Natural Disasters and the Steiners. JBL was a very limited in ring performer, you can probably name guys he faced but the only thing that always came across brilliantly was the 'Clothesline From Hell'. As a singles career heel, I don't see how Layfield could survive the 'Million Dollar Dream'.

Fourthly, promo - both brilliant but I still give Snr the edge as Bradshaw was more inclined to take shortcuts (Hitler salute), whereas Ted worked the charisma.

And finally, I just don't like JBL and I'm not just talking kayfabe. From verbal bullying of the Miz and Joey Styles to taking advantage of the Blue Meanie to the aforementioned salute in Germany - I've never heard anything about Layfield that would lead me to believe he is a worthwhile human being.

Basically, I can't find a criteria were I'd put the Attitude version over the original. Million Dollar Man all the way here.

 

[Big Sexy]

And JBL was 6'6 290. If DiBiase chooses to brawl then he loses. He also doesn't have a lot of choices besides brawling as you correctly point out. There is a difference between skilled in the ring and likely to win a match. A modest advantage, often even a significant advantage, in technical wrestling doesn't win matches. There are a ton of vanilla midgets that are vastly more skilled in the ring than <insert random bigger guy>. That does not mean they would defeat him, especially in a kayfabe setting.

I was merely pointing out that Dibiase wasn't small by any means and could hold his own. Dibiase has done so against guys bigger then JBL so it wouldn't be a problem. Dibiase was a more skilled ring technician and that COMBINED with his size, ability to take a beating, and in ring smarts makes him superior to JBL. If the only argument you have is that JBL was a little bit bigger then you need to go find some more substance because right now it is severely lacking.

 

[shattered dreams]

I was merely pointing out that Dibiase wasn't small by any means and could hold his own. Dibiase has done so against guys bigger then JBL so it wouldn't be a problem. Dibiase was a more skilled ring technician and that COMBINED with his size, ability to take a beating, and in ring smarts makes him superior to JBL. If the only argument you have is that JBL was a little bit bigger then you need to go find some more substance because right now it is severely lacking.

JBL is is not just bigger he is a better brawler, can take a greater beating and is going to be able to deliver his finisher easier. JBL can win against someone technical. He has beat Benoit multiple times. Benoit doesn't have enough size? Well, he has beat the Undertaker multiple times. Just being a little bit more technical is what I find "severely lacking" when that is DiBiase's only in-ring advantage.

 

[Big Sexy]

JBL is is not just bigger he is a better brawler, can take a greater beating and is going to be able to deliver his finisher easier. JBL can win against someone technical. He has beat Benoit multiple times. Benoit doesn't have enough size? Well, he has beat the Undertaker multiple times. Just being a little bit more technical is what I find "severely lacking" when that is DiBiase's only in-ring advantage.

Only in-ring advantage my ass. Dibiase can take just as much of a beating as JBL can and Dibiase didn't need his finisher to win matches. He was able to win matches in a multitude of ways. You can talk about JBL's wins over big names all you want but how many of those wins were clean? He isn't taking on some big name face, he's taking on another heel and he's taking on a better heel who was more resourceful. Any tricks JBL has up his sleeve, Dibiase has as well and he will be one step ahead.

 

[Long Island Iced D]

This was a hard one but I went with JBL just because he was more modern and believable. The moments that stick out to me are JBL's bull rope match with Eddie and Ted's stunt where he kicked the ball away from the little kid lol. JBL and Ted were pretty equal on the mic but I think JBL's look and in ring talent wins him this one.

 

[Alastor]

Both are evenly matched in almost every other categories. Strength, ability to buy help, cheating to win etc. Dibiase wrestled in an era where heels almost never win the big one. That seem to be the only thing going for Dibiase against JBL. But JBL held the title for 9 freaking months. An accomplishments matched only by the likes of HHH and Cena during that era. Maybe he was a placeholder until the next big star arrived but did his job so well that he held the title for a long ass time. He broke through the glass ceiling while Dibiase did not.

 

[JGlass]

Both are evenly matched in almost every other categories. Strength, ability to buy help, cheating to win etc. Dibiase wrestled in an era where heels almost never win the big one. That seem to be the only thing going for Dibiase against JBL. But JBL held the title for 9 freaking months. An accomplishments matched only by the likes of HHH and Cena during that era. Maybe he was a placeholder until the next big star arrived but did his job so well that he held the title for a long ass time. He broke through the glass ceiling while Dibiase did not.

That glass ceiling you speak of JBL breaking through was shattered long before he got there. It's been said before, DiBiase wrestled at a time when the bad guys never won when it counted. Why? Because nobody wanted to see the bad guys win. He was always beaten by Hulk Hogan or Randy Savage, because on the grandest stage of them all, Batman always beats The Joker.

JBL wrestled at a time where heels held the championship for months at a time because Vince McMahon discovered that people will pay big money to watch a face chase the championship. Even so, when the title was most important, at Wrestlemania, JBL still lost, because on the grandest stage of them all, Batman always beats The Joker.

In the end, JBL was a bad guy just like DiBiase, except DiBiase was original and better at what he did.

 

[Alastor]

That glass ceiling you speak of JBL breaking through was shattered long before he got there. It's been said before, DiBiase wrestled at a time when the bad guys never won when it counted. Why? Because nobody wanted to see the bad guys win. He was always beaten by Hulk Hogan or Randy Savage, because on the grandest stage of them all, Batman always beats The Joker.

JBL wrestled at a time where heels held the championship for months at a time because Vince McMahon discovered that people will pay big money to watch a face chase the championship. Even so, when the title was most important, at Wrestlemania, JBL still lost, because on the grandest stage of them all, Batman always beats The Joker.

In the end, JBL was a bad guy just like DiBiase, except DiBiase was original and better at what he did.

The main argument Dibiase is getting is he was the original money man heel, the first one to do it therefore he was better. I disagree because JBL did it better when he had to overcome the perception by many old school viewers that he was a mere copycat. He was not, and he added his own personal touch to the gimmick. A self-made millionaire, using limos to enter the arena. He also did not stuff money down the throat of others like Dibiase. I didn't felt like watch Dibiase mark two when I watched JBL during that time. JBL was not worse than Dibiase yet he accomplished more. JBL should win.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Both are evenly matched in almost every other categories.

That's a bit debatable. But okay.

Strength,

That's JBL, not evenly matched.

ability to buy help,

Ok I'll give you that.

cheating to win etc.

That's not even. Dibiase is way better at cheating.

Dibiase wrestled in an era where heels almost never win the big one. That seem to be the only thing going for Dibiase against JBL.

Yeah, except the whole being a 10x better professional wrestler and leaving a much better legacy as a whole in the industry. But other than the 2 most important things in wrestling, yeah sure. Why not?

But JBL held the title for 9 freaking months. An accomplishments matched only by the likes of HHH and Cena during that era.

Well Cena was never World Champion before JBL was, so that's moot. Also, lets just look at the talent he defended the championship against and how many clean wins he has.

Eddie (Great performer, but career mid carder)
Undertaker( Legend)
Booker T(Half Main Eventer/ Half Upper Mid carder)
The Big Show(Same as Booker)

Those are the 4 biggest names he faced and the only one he beat somewhat clean was the career mid carder. I normally don't care about the clean to dirty win ratio, but you got to have something. Even Miz has beaten DB and Kofi. JBL doesn't even have that on his resume.

Maybe he was a placeholder until the next big star arrived but did his job so well that he held the title for a long ass time.

That was the most boring fucking stint of Smackdown in it's history. Him doing his job well had nothing to do with it. There was seriously no one else to give it to.

He broke through the glass ceiling while Dibiase did not.

What fucking glass ceiling? There was a fucking concrete ceiling in Dibiase's era. In JBL's era, Edge is an 11 time champion. The ceiling was broken looooong before JBL got his hands on the title.

 

[JGlass]

The main argument Dibiase is getting is he was the original money man heel, the first one to do it therefore he was better. I disagree because JBL did it better when he had to overcome the perception by many old school viewers that he was a mere copycat.

JBL did it better? You lost all credibility, end of story. Nobody in their right mind could say JBL did the rich guy gimmick better than DiBiase, NOBODY. I said it before and I'll say it again, JBL couldn't even fathom getting the type of heat DiBiase did, and that's because DiBiase was pure, unadulterated evil. JBL was just a rich asshole.

He was not, and he added his own personal touch to the gimmick. A self-made millionaire, using limos to enter the arena. He also did not stuff money down the throat of others like Dibiase.

Unless you mean he literally didn't stuff money down others' throats, you just seriously contradicted yourself. On the one hand you're arguing that he bragged he was a self-made millionaire and that he entered his matches in limos, and then the next sentence you claim he didn't rely on being rich to grab most of his heat? While JBL did other things to garner heel heat, most of that heat primarily came from his, "I'm rich and therefore better than you," attitude.

I didn't felt like watch Dibiase mark two when I watched JBL during that time. JBL was not worse than Dibiase yet he accomplished more. JBL should win.

...What?

Long story short, two different eras, same guy, except DiBiase was better, original, and more genuine (and that's despite the fact he wasn't actually a millionaire).

 

[Alastor]

That's a bit debatable. But okay.



That's JBL, not evenly matched.



Ok I'll give you that.



That's not even. Dibiase is way better at cheating.



Yeah, except the whole being a 10x better professional wrestler and leaving a much better legacy as a whole in the industry. But other than the 2 most important things in wrestling, yeah sure. Why not?



Well Cena was never World Champion before JBL was, so that's moot. Also, lets just look at the talent he defended the championship against and how many clean wins he has.

Eddie (Great performer, but career mid carder)
Undertaker( Legend)
Booker T(Half Main Eventer/ Half Upper Mid carder)
The Big Show(Same as Booker)

Those are the 4 biggest names he faced and the only one he beat somewhat clean was the career mid carder. I normally don't care about the clean to dirty win ratio, but you got to have something. Even Miz has beaten DB and Kofi. JBL doesn't even have that on his resume.



That was the most boring fucking stint of Smackdown in it's history. Him doing his job well had nothing to do with it. There was seriously no one else to give it to.



What fucking glass ceiling? There was a fucking concrete ceiling in Dibiase's era. In JBL's era, Edge is an 11 time champion. The ceiling was broken looooong before JBL got his hands on the title.

The title could have been given to either Kurt Angle or Undertaker during the reign. During his reign as champion, only HHH before him had a long ass reign and Cena directly after him. The glass ceiling I referred to was the fact that nobody other than the top face was able to hold the title that long during that era. HHH was a heel but he was easily the most recognizable face of the company after Rock and Austin left. Brock was the next biggest name during that time if i remember correctly. So it was a surprise that he held the title for that long.

 

[Alastor]

JBL did it better? You lost all credibility, end of story. Nobody in their right mind could say JBL did the rich guy gimmick better than DiBiase, NOBODY. I said it before and I'll say it again, JBL couldn't even fathom getting the type of heat DiBiase did, and that's because DiBiase was pure, unadulterated evil. JBL was just a rich asshole.



Unless you mean he literally didn't stuff money down others' throats, you just seriously contradicted yourself. On the one hand you're arguing that he bragged he was a self-made millionaire and that he entered his matches in limos, and then the next sentence you claim he didn't rely on being rich to grab most of his heat? While JBL did other things to garner heel heat, most of that heat primarily came from his, "I'm rich and therefore better than you," attitude.



...What?

Long story short, two different eras, same guy, except DiBiase was better, original, and more genuine (and that's despite the fact he wasn't actually a millionaire).

Because I said JBL did it better I am not sound? Dibiase was more of a comic book caricature due to his era. If JBL did something similar he would be laughed off. JBL's rich heel gimmick is based more on reality due to his era. I argue JBL is able to portray a better rich heel because he need to conform to a more realistic approach. Vince Mcmahon already covered the comic caricature rich heel during JBL's run.

JBL's heat was not merely 'I'm rich therefore I'm better than you' but also 'I'm rich because I worked hard unlike you'. He also attracted heat by being lucky and not winning by skill. Example was when Big Show slammed him through the ring during the cage match, hence he was able to win by getting out of the cage first. JBL was able to sustain the heat on him by adding more variation in which he was able to escape with the title.

 

[Nate DaMac]

The title could have been given to either Kurt Angle or Undertaker during the reign.

I'm pretty sure that Angle was injured and doing the GM thing for the majority of JBL's run. They had to have a heel as champion to prepare for the eventual winner, Cena, to go over huge. Having the cunt hold the title for so long was solely to put Cena over, it wouldn't have mattered who it was. Unfortunately for the wrestling fan, JBL was the only option.

During his reign as champion, only HHH before him had a long ass reign and Cena directly after him. The glass ceiling I referred to was the fact that nobody other than the top face was able to hold the title that long during that era. HHH was a heel but he was easily the most recognizable face of the company after Rock and Austin left.

What's your point? So just because HHH was more recognizable, this proverbial ceiling wasn't broken? I just don't follow your logic. If it wasn't for HHH before him, there's no way JBL would have gotten away with this fucking atrocious title run.

Brock was the next biggest name during that time if i remember correctly. So it was a surprise that he held the title for that long.

They were trying to book this mega program with Brock and Goldberg if I'm not mistaken. If it hadn't failed so miserably, it could have been special. That's for another time though.

 

[shattered dreams]

It seems like some people have tried to say DiBiase is better at using whatever means necessary to win than JBL. I would like to know what the evidence is for this when it comes to big matches. JBL consistently won with a variety of tactics in his prime in big matches. Can DiBiase make this claim? I do not think he can. Once again JBL wins the match. If you want to debate characters then that is fine but quit pretending that translates to the ring.

In some ways what JBL accomplished with his character is more impressive. He got the character over with a lot less help than WWE provided DiBiase. How much credit should DiBiase get alone for the WWE putting so much effort into his gimmick? How much does the million dollar man gimmick benefit from the state of kayfabe in his era opposed to what JBL was dealing with? People are going to great lengths to separate the eras when it comes to what happens in the ring and with championships yet conveniently totally ignoring it in this regard.