Religion 2.0

[Steamboat Ricky]

Becca archived the first thread, so I am taking it upon myself to reopen the discussion.

As many of you know, I graduated with a bachelor's degree in religious studies (particularly Christian studies), and I tend to think that I am fairly well read and educated on the topic. But NOTHING on Earth pisses me off more than when someone who is completely novice and ignorant on the matter tries to tell me how I am wrong.

For instance, I have been chatting with a gal on myspace for a couple weeks, and one day she told me about how she was "witnessing" to one of her friends. I replied with this:

Hmmm. I don't know. I'm always really careful and sensitive when I "witness" to people. Before I was a Christian it would always really piss me off when people "witnessed" to me. It always ended up being "hey your life sucks because God said so" and "live this way because God said so." I was like, "big freaking deal. I couldn't give two rat's behinds about what God says and in no way do I grant him any kind of authority over how I should live." Furthermore, people would always say, "oh you need to be 'saved.'" Saved from what? I was completely content with life and these people harping on me to get saved did nothing but irritate me to no conceivable end. If anything, evangelism is what distanced me from God the most. Instead, it was through boldness and mentoring that I rethought my world-view and gave God a chance.

From my perspective, salvation isn't something that everyone needs. Some people are fine just how they are, living completely happy, fulfilled, and prosperous lives. Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Gays, Witch Doctors, Communists, etc...all seem to be living happy and free lives...so why try to force them to change their ways? Why is the faith to which I subscribe better and more authoritative than others? I'm not sure. But I don't think it can be boiled down to the fact that it says so in a book that was written by humans...a collection of writings of which we do not even have any original manuscripts. The Bible originally came to be during the "oral stage," where the biblical narrative was simply told like grandpas tell stories to their grandkids. So, it very well could have been warped through time. Furthermore, WHICH set of Scriptures is THE word of God? Which canon? Protestant? Catholic? Jewish? The authority only exists in the authority that the church gives it.

So, to me, faith has to come from something personal...a longing so to speak. I would gladly help anyone who wanted to know why I believe what I believe.

This girl then proceeded to jump ALL over me:

wow you and i c things completely differently.. b/c what makes Christianity diff is that jesus Christ came down from heaven or i should say the "the word" lived a sin free life... died on the cross.. but ultimately rose again and is now seated at the right hand of the Father and i believe this and this is why i am a born again believer on my way to heaven.. no other religion has an ultimate plan of salvation or a life free from death.. which ultimately is being separated from God for eternity in hell...

She didn't respond to my statement WHATSOEVER. Nothing about "witnessing." Just a bunch of evangelist rhetoric.

Friends, I want to go ahead and apologize to you if I ever have had or have this attitude in the future. That's not my goal in life. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, I will admit to that. I am a sinner in need of grace from a being greater than I. If you want to hear my outlook on things, then I would be glad to share them with you. But as far as I'm concerned, if you are living a prosperous and fulfilling life and worshipping paper scraps...then more power to you. I may not have ANY idea how that works or WHY that is something appealing or relevant, but I would hope that we could discuss things openly and freely, without fear of being ridiculed or attacked about any perspectives that we might hold.

Any similar situations?

 

[Murfish]

I, personally, don't believe in God. I phrased that statement as I did because I will never be willing to say that God doesn't exist. I believe that the concept of God is beyond something that can be truly proven. I could have easily swayed to either side of the issue, but in reality I do not have the conviction of faith to believe in God when I look at the world. I generally look at the world in a scientific perspective. I have free-thought and agnostic tendencies. I spent the last two years at a very good Catholic high school. I had no problem with being in mandatory theology and church studies classes, in fact I found them quite interesting. I understand the Catholic point of view and I like it, but really do lack faith. I am an active member in my church's youth ministry, not because I am trying to undermine them, but because it is filled with good people that can help me become a better person. I also feel that I help others. But back to the issue of faith. I think Thomas Hardy accurately describes the situation quite nicely.

THAT from this bright believing band
An outcast I should be,
That faiths by which my comrades stand
Seem fantasies to me,
And mirage-mists their Shining Land, 5
Is a drear destiny.

Why thus my soul should be consigned
To infelicity,
Why always I must feel as blind
To sights my brethren see, 10
Why joys they’ve found I cannot find,
Abides a mystery.

Since heart of mine knows not that ease
Which they know; since it be
That He who breathes All’s Well to these 15
Breathes no All’s Well to me,
My lack might move their sympathies
And Christian charity!

I am like a gazer who should mark
An inland company 20
Standing upfingered, with, “Hark! hark!
The glorious distant sea!”
And feel, “Alas, ’tis but yon dark
And wind-swept pine to me!”

Yet I would bear my shortcomings 25
With meet tranquillity,
But for the charge that blessed things
I’d liefer have unbe.

O, doth a bird deprived of wings
Go earth-bound wilfully!
. . . . 30
Enough. As yet disquiet clings
About us. Rest shall we.

I am actually more of an existentialist, in that I look at the world and think that there surely can't be a god, but I also think that it would be very comforting if there were a god.

As far as people being belligerent about their faith(or lack there of), nothing gets on my nerves more than that. Whether it is an atheist trying to tell me how ridiculous the notion of god is or a man on the street screaming about how I will rot in hell, regardless of my lifestyle, unless I convert to his religion. People who go on about how bad Catholicism also hit a nerve for me. I get very annoyed when I here a practicing Catholic complain that the Church rejects gay people.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

Murphy Brown just touched on an issue that I am ashamed of in the church today: homosexuality. Since when did gays become unworthy of God's love? It's very common here in the Bible-belt midwest to hear a lot of religious types vouching for family values and protecting the "sanctity" of marriage. One of those individuals is James Dobson, leader of the "Focus on the Family" institute. Dr. Dobson has some good ideas and I'm sure he's a fine man, but his opinion that allowing same-sex partnerships to pervade in our society will eventually lead to the destruction of family values is absolutely ridiculous. What will lead to the destruction of family values is poor parenting. Gay parents have proven time and time again that they are very capable and responsible at parenting, and in no way does having a gay parent set make a child more prone to be gay him or herself. If gay people want to have a legal union, then who is the church to determine that they cannot? Last I checked, it was a LEGAL affair, not a religious one.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Becca actually archived another religious thread about a guy having a crisis of faith or something. I believe the old one's still knocking about here somewhere.

Better explain my stance once more. I won't be replying to the homosexuality, as it was just covered well here and has been covered in another thread. I'm an Atheist. Simple as, I believe there is no God. Do I believe there could be a God? If I did, would that make me Agnostic? I believe there could be a God in the same way I believe there could be a planet out there populated entirely by twenty foot tall rabbits. It's possible, but there's no evidence for it, so why should I believe it? I have a feeling I worded that wrongly. Well, unless you fully investigate every planet in the universe which is, of course, impossible.

I'll add more to this discussion later.

 

[Tastycles]

There's some interesting points I've seen in this thread so far and I just wanted to state my view on the matter.

I don't have a problem with people believing in God, and there's been times in my life where I've verged on the agnostic side of the debate, and I still don't feel comfortable using the word Athesit, partly just because I don't, and partly out of respect for religious people. By giving this respect, I expect it in return, but when I was at school there were often people who askec me to prove that God doesn't exist, bearing in mind I hadn't asked them to prove he/she/it/they did. I used Russell's teapot analogy, but that changed nothing, it gave me the impression that it was impossible to have a debate with religious people about religion. Habing read your post Ricky, I have decided that it obviously is, I had previously been in bad company, and feel a bit bad about my old view point.

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

Which brings me onto the point of homosexuality. As mentioned earlier, it should not be a religious argument, but a legal one that should determine the status of legal marriage. Without going into too much detail, the biblical objections to homosexuality are almost non existent. The Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination, but it also says...

Eating seafood that lacks fins and scales (Leviticus 11:11), eating certain birds of prey, including bats (Leviticus 11:12) and all insects (Leviticus 11:23 and 11:41) and other biblically unclean animals (Leviticus 20:25); remarrying the person one previously divorced (Deuteronomy 24:4); telling lies (Proverbs 12:22); being proud in heart (Proverbs 16:5); justifying the wicked (Proverbs 17:15); and cheating in business (Proverbs 20:10 and Proverbs 20:23) are all abominations

Which I would take to mean that this is a part of the Bible which is irrelevant to the modern world.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

Don't be too quick to assume that parts of the Bible are no longer relevant in modern society. You'd be surprised how many Orthodox and Messianic Jews still follow kosher laws and various rituals such as wearing tassles, not making ANY skin contact with a woman other than one's wife, and sacrificing live chickens.

In fact, I am very humbled by these types of behaviors because it is likely the most devoutly religious behavior that I have ever encountered. People still do things that would seem insane by today's standards simply because they think that God has called them to do so. Jesus says that the Kingdom of God is for those who have the faith of a child, and I often allow my faith to be determined far too much by reason. Now, don't get me wrong, reason is a very important entity and the Bible praises the acquisition of wisdom, but I often let my quest for reason trick me into straying from what I tend to believe. Does that make sense?

 

[Uncle Sam]

In fact, I am very humbled by these types of behaviors because it is likely the most devoutly religious behavior that I have ever encountered. People still do things that would seem insane by today's standards simply because they think that God has called them to do so. Jesus says that the Kingdom of God is for those who have the faith of a child, and I often allow my faith to be determined far too much by reason. Now, don't get me wrong, reason is a very important entity and the Bible praises the acquisition of wisdom, but I often let my quest for reason trick me into straying from what I tend to believe. Does that make sense?

I'll try not to be offensive, but feel I may come off as such anyway. Why would you be afraid that reason would make you doubt your beliefs? That's ridiculous in my opinion, as is being told to basically "not think about it too much". I mean, in any other situation, you'd think, "Holy cow, now I use reason I see that I was wrong!" yet you stop yourself doing so in the case of religion? Makes no sense to me. A belief that you have to abandon reason to hold is pretty much a form of madness to me.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

Because, from my perspective, reason is something finite. It is something that is determinable by my own consciousness. I, however, have had experiences where instant feelings of what I have perceived to be something extra-worldly have beckoned me. It doesn't make sense in my mind because my mind is concerned with things of science and math...arguments and rhetoric. Instead, my heart responds to different elements, such as love, kindness, and a sense of something transcendent and eternal. I can sit around and try to solve things using my mind, but I continuously arrive at crossroads, sometimes finding contrasting solutions and arguments. Whereas, when I listen to my heart, or even still, "the voice of reason" in my head that is not my voice, then I tend to have better clarity and seem more pleased with the results of my actions.

 

[Monkey_Mania]

I choose to believe. I have gone through some hard times in my life. All brought on by myself. It wasn't until I was so piss drunk one night where I almost died did I turn my life around. I felt the emptiness inside of me.

I was very leary about going to church. I felt however that it was something that I had to do. I went that sunday morning and felt that hole inside me fill up. I knew that this was the path that God had sent me on. I have since been saved and baptized.

I feel strongly about trying to help others that are in the same situation I was. I try to witness to them. But I don't try to push my religion on someone. As I don't like it when people try and tell me that God isn't real. To them I say. "With all that I've been through in my life, with all the things that happen in this world. The murders, the bombings, the wars, and everything else I see on T.V. How dare you try and tell me that I shouldn't have faith that there is a plan for all of this." Now my faith guides me through the horrors of everyday life and makes living easier.

I am one of the very few young people in this world that will stand up and proudly say that I am a christian, that Jesus Christ is my King Of Kings, and the Lord Of Lords. Because I believe in my heart of hearts that their has to be a reason for everything, and a place where there is no more suffering.

 

[Father:_Polley]

There are just some things you can't put down to logic though Sam. I mean what about love, guilt...what is logical about these feelings if we didn't have something other than logic.

Yes, you can say my views are tainted by the fact I am a Christian and have no issues with sharing that. at the same time, I've been on here nearly a year and people know I'm not going to shove that down your their throats.

Honestly, my views are that yes, it is illogical to believe in something you can't see, but everyone does it. we can't know everything, it's not possible, that to me is where the aspect of faith comes in. And I believe there is a God.

 

[Golden Standard]

I beleive in god but i'am also confused and scared. They say if you have no faith in god then when you die you will go to hell. Now they also say the after life is longer then the actually life. Now when i was young i had no problems i thought that i was going to heaven cause i was a good person, but then now i realize that you have to have love, and faith and all this other stuff. You have to follow a set of rules to go to heaven.

I think its unfair i mean you beleive in god and is a good person but go to hell when you die cause you have no faith. But i guess it is what it is but its kinda unfair if you know what i mean.

 

[FOTH 3:16]

I am only 13. But I realize that I have been wrong many times. Only about a week ago did I realize that I needed to be saved.I was feeling depressed. I was feeling dark and gothic. So i realized i needed God.

I believe that to be saved you need to realize that you are a sinner. You need to realize that God gave us his son,placed our sins on him,and had him die for us. You must accept that Jesus Christ died for us on the cross and that he is our savior. You must truly believe that you are a sinner and want to change. Then you must drop to your knees and pray to the Lord and say "Lord,I realize that I am a sinner. I accept that Jesus was my substitute on the cross. His blood shed,the life he gave,and his resurrection were for me. Jesus Christ is my savior. I ask that you will please forgive me for my sins. I thank you for everlasting life and salvation.I love you Lord.

I did this and now I pray every night. I have began to read the Bible. I now accept God. I believe everyone is born pure but we all commit sins.And I believe everyone should be saved. Once someone is saved and truly accepts God,I believe they are on the right path.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Because, from my perspective, reason is something finite. It is something that is determinable by my own consciousness. I, however, have had experiences where instant feelings of what I have perceived to be something extra-worldly have beckoned me.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand that at all. You're basically telling me "I know it makes no sense, but I got this feeling..." I mean, I could be wrong, as I have already admitted. There could be an entire universe up there which I just can't comprehend due to my feeble human brain, but the presumptions necessary to make that leap... it's just crazy. So your logical processes might not be able to comprehend something? Why do you suddenly presume there's a God then and, furthermore, how can you be so specific about it? Even when you're vague, it's so incredibly specific.

It doesn't make sense in my mind because my mind is concerned with things of science and math...arguments and rhetoric. Instead, my heart responds to different elements, such as love, kindness, and a sense of something transcendent and eternal. I can sit around and try to solve things using my mind, but I continuously arrive at crossroads, sometimes finding contrasting solutions and arguments. Whereas, when I listen to my heart, or even still, "the voice of reason" in my head that is not my voice, then I tend to have better clarity and seem more pleased with the results of my actions.

Again, not trying to be offensive, but did you just tell me you believe in God because it's easier than thinking things through? I mean, yes, you will be unsure of things, but there is no topic or subject or whatever you want to call it in life that people 100% believe in, or say they do. Yet religion is an exception? Why? Because you have to abandon reason to believe in it. I mean, these holy books and scriptures, etc. I have no doubt in my mind that the people writing these intended these things to be taking them literally. Yet taking them completely literally would be completely ridiculous in today's world, so only a handful of people do. That speaks tons to me.

There are just some things you can't put down to logic though Sam. I mean what about love, guilt...what is logical about these feelings if we didn't have something other than logic.

Well, actually I could be a cold bastard and explain those as chemicals in your brain and it all comes down to biology, which is so complex that we can't even grasp what our own bodies are capable of. I mean, physically, bees shouldn't be able to fly, but they can though. Just because there isn't a logical explanation, why do you need an explanation. "Well, that makes no sense... I haven't been told why that is... hmm, must mean God did it." Again, it's all about massive presumptions.

Yes, you can say my views are tainted by the fact I am a Christian and have no issues with sharing that. at the same time, I've been on here nearly a year and people know I'm not going to shove that down your their throats.

You can if you like. I won't take offense, no more than if you kept telling me that TNA sucks. To me, this debate isn't "I'm right, you're wrong" but it's more "I'm much more likely to be right than you are."

Honestly, my views are that yes, it is illogical to believe in something you can't see, but everyone does it. we can't know everything, it's not possible, that to me is where the aspect of faith comes in. And I believe there is a God.

Logic is what human society runs on, yet even the people who run society abandon it in order to believe in something illogical. The best reason I've been given why this is so far is "what if our logic just can't comprehend it?" And the answer to that is "accept that you might not be able to comprehend something, don't wildly make presumptions."

I beleive in god but i'am also confused and scared. They say if you have no faith in god then when you die you will go to hell. Now they also say the after life is longer then the actually life. Now when i was young i had no problems i thought that i was going to heaven cause i was a good person, but then now i realize that you have to have love, and faith and all this other stuff. You have to follow a set of rules to go to heaven.

I can't honestly believe that an all-loving and all-powerful God would be so picky about the people he lets into his private club.

I am only 13. But I realize that I have been wrong many times. Only about a week ago did I realize that I needed to be saved.I was feeling depressed. I was feeling dark and gothic. So i realized i needed God.

I believe that to be saved you need to realize that you are a sinner. You need to realize that God gave us his son,placed our sins on him,and had him die for us. You must accept that Jesus Christ died for us on the cross and that he is our savior. You must truly believe that you are a sinner and want to change. Then you must drop to your knees and pray to the Lord and say "Lord,I realize that I am a sinner. I accept that Jesus was my substitute on the cross. His blood shed,the life he gave,and his resurrection were for me. Jesus Christ is my savior. I ask that you will please forgive me for my sins. I thank you for everlasting life and salvation.I love you Lord.

I did this and now I pray every night. I have began to read the Bible. I now accept God. I believe everyone is born pure but we all commit sins.And I believe everyone should be saved. Once someone is saved and truly accepts God,I believe they are on the right path.

May I ask, why did you realize you needed God?

 

[Golden Standard]

I am only 13. But I realize that I have been wrong many times. Only about a week ago did I realize that I needed to be saved.I was feeling depressed. I was feeling dark and gothic. So i realized i needed God.

I believe that to be saved you need to realize that you are a sinner. You need to realize that God gave us his son,placed our sins on him,and had him die for us. You must accept that Jesus Christ died for us on the cross and that he is our savior. You must truly believe that you are a sinner and want to change. Then you must drop to your knees and pray to the Lord and say "Lord,I realize that I am a sinner. I accept that Jesus was my substitute on the cross. His blood shed,the life he gave,and his resurrection were for me. Jesus Christ is my savior. I ask that you will please forgive me for my sins. I thank you for everlasting life and salvation.I love you Lord.

I did this and now I pray every night. I have began to read the Bible. I now accept God. I believe everyone is born pure but we all commit sins.And I believe everyone should be saved. Once someone is saved and truly accepts God,I believe they are on the right path.

I know what your saying and you are right. But its not that easy. I feel depressed at times and dark too, not gothic i don't worship the devil or anything. But its hard doing what you said for some reason.

 

[Sparky]

now before i write this i want to make one thing clear. I don't in anyway mean to offend anybody. I do not have a problem with people that are religious in any way shape or form and i am merely saying my views on religion, Now with that out of the way...
I am not religous at all i fail to see how there could be some one or something controlling our destiny. Uncle sam mentioned one of the reason's i don't beliave in "God"

I can't honestly believe that an all-loving and all-powerful God would be so picky about the people he lets into his private club.

If everybody that committed a Sin didnt go to Heaven how many people would actually be in heaven? it just dosn't make any sense what ever. also people like FOTH claiming they Found god becouse they was depressed, If you are a decent person why would you become depressed i the first place. and with the saying only the good die young, If there was a god wouldn't it be the other way around?. The Bible to me is a big book of chinese whisper's. yeah there might of been a guy that sacrificed his life for the sins of other's but the likelyhood of anybody coming back to life after going through what he did is 000000.1% i am ashamed to admit it but a small part of me doesn't beliave in him becouse There has been no proof. If there was a god he would of done something by now. it's not just the Christian god i dont beliave in. I mean what ever happend to all of the Egyptian god's. Only a few people still worship them. when year's ago million's did. IMO The bible is nothing but the biggest selling Fiction book in the world. Again i didn't mean to offend anybody.

 

[Golden Standard]

now before i write this i want to make one thing clear. I don't in anyway mean to offend anybody. I do not have a problem with people that are religious in any way shape or form and i am merely saying my views on religion, Now with that out of the way...
I am not religous at all i fail to see how there could be some one or something controlling our destiny. Uncle sam mentioned one of the reason's i don't beliave in "God" If everybody that committed a Sin didnt go to Heaven how many people would actually be in heaven? it just dosn't make any sense what ever. also people like FOTH claiming they Found god becouse they was depressed, If you are a decent person why would you become depressed i the first place. and with the saying only the good die young, If there was a god wouldn't it be the other way around?. The Bible to me is a big book of chinese whisper's. yeah there might of been a guy that sacrificed his life for the sins of other's but the likelyhood of anybody coming back to life after going through what he did is 000000.1% i am ashamed to admit it but a small part of me doesn't beliave in him becouse There has been no proof. If there was a god he would of done something by now. it's not just the Christian god i dont beliave in. I mean what ever happend to all of the Egyptian god's. Only a few people still worship them. when year's ago million's did. IMO The bible is nothing but the biggest selling Fiction book in the world. Again i didn't mean to offend anybody.

I have my doubts too Sparky if god is real or not but i'am just not sure and it sucks. I mean can i have a sign that he is real like he appearing to me or a voice that i just hear talking to me. I mean i don't wanna go to hell but i'm not sure if god is real or not. When i was young i did but now that i'am a little older i have my doubts if he is real or not. Now i have commited sins too but i'm not a bad person as i have not commited any of the deadly sins for serious break any 10 commandments.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I have my doubts too Sparky if god is real or not but i'am just not sure and it sucks.

I suppose that's because there's no evidence, save a few different ancient written by humans (many of which were supposedly illiterate) books that all contradict each other and themselves.

I mean can i have a sign that he is real like he appearing to me or a voice that i just hear talking to me.

It's all about faith. I don't understand why. Surely an all-loving God who could do anything would like you to be on the good side of the afterlife.

I mean i don't wanna go to hell but i'm not sure if god is real or not. When i was young i did but now that i'am a little older i have my doubts if he is real or not.

To be fair, the whole "You HAVE to believe" thing is a commonly held belief, but not the only one.

Now i have commited sins too but i'm not a bad person as i have not commited any of the deadly sins for serious break any 10 commandments.

The religious rules are flawed. No reasonable God would expect you to be able to control your very thoughts.

 

[FOTH 3:16]

May I ask, why did you realize you needed God?

I was feeling depressed and empty. Like no one but my parents had love for me, and even they were giving up because they fought all the time. I felt dark, like there was nothing for me. Then I read a small paper about how you could be saved, about how anybody could be saved. That is what changed me. I read that paper and dropped to my knees later that day and said a prayer to God, admiting that I was sinner and I wanted to be saved. I am now praying every day. I have faith in my Lord now. I have started reading the Bible. The only thing I can't do is go to Church because my parents aren't like me. But I believe if you have true and total faith to the Lord then you won't need a simple building you have to go to every Sunday.

Golden Standard, I am not gonna force anything down your throat. But if you wanna be saved, drop to your knees, say a prayer to God, truly accept him as your Lord, accept yourself as a sinner, accept Jesus as your savior, and have faith. Ask th good Lord to forgive you for your sins. And have faith. If you already believe in God then it should be easy. I won't force anything on you buddy, but just contemplate what I have said.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I've just decided I'm going to step down from this thread. I'm just going to get worked up and say something I may regret, and more likely something that will offend someone. This will be my last post.

If you have strong enough faith to believe in something for which there is no evidence, and abide by laws engineered by men in ancient, and in some cases not-so-ancient times, then your faith will not be dented by a man preaching about something as ridiculous as applying common sense to your faith. I agree, religion does have its uses, as an imaginary friend helps a lonely child, the promise of forgiveness may offer hope to a guilty criminal or people with problems in their lives in general. However, this merely shows how faith is useful, not that it is correct in anyway, as there is no evidence to show it is correct, and the only way to believe so is to make massive, unfounded presumptions. I apologise if you are offended by my frank speaking, but it no worse than any minister or, indeed, any religious member of this site may speak about faith.

The fact of the matter is, the lack of proof of for one thing is not proof for something else. And this is the only "proof" that the superstitious have to their credit. I can't prove something doesn't exist. It's impossible. That's not proof it does exist. I can't prove that Rob Van Dam can't fly, as a picture of Rob Van Dam not flying isn't proof of that, is it? The same logic applies to anything. I can't prove that God doesn't exist, as a list of scientific findings (in which, God is absent, oddly) isn't proof of that. You can't prove a negative. More intelligent people than me have said it better.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Im not here to dscuss wether me beliving n something is logical, or scentifically able to be proven. So there isnt really any need to disprove what Im saying here. Sam, a reply to this isnt necessary, becuase ABSOLUTELY NOTHNG you can say will do anything to shake my faith. in any way. I KNOW that its real, and that wont change.

Eh. Religion is made by man, faith comes from your heart.

I dont attempt to classify myself as one thing or the other. I just belive in god, jesus, the bible. But I feel as though its not mine, or anyone else's place to condemn the way others belive, or worship, and I also dont think people are condemned simply for being sinners, or even not beliving. God is not vengefull, he is loving. He isnt just gonna banish you to eternal fire. The lord will reveal himself to all and the end, and I really think everyone will be given a chance. I think the difference with belveivers and non belivers is the blessings and protection and oppurtunities throughout life, not what happens in the end. As I said, I think everyone will be able to receive salvation. Tjhe reason I feel all this, is ive had literally THOUSANDS of instances in my life were it was all proven to me. I wont go into them, becuase I will get a bunch of scientists in here telling me how every last one of those things was coincidence. Science itself in various instances would indicate things being just TOO damn perfect for it to have just randomly happened. Yes I belive. And I always will. from the ink on my skin, to the blood pumping through my heart. And I will never be shaken.

 

[NYSandman]

I'm not debating anything, just giving my view on the matter, which is quite conflicted.

I am a very firm believer in evolution, and, as such, I am forced to admit that there are flaws in the theory. The main one being this. How can a blind force, a force with no intelligence or will behind it, sculp a creature in such a way as to make it ideal to its environment?

Let's take snakes, Satan's form. Ever notice how snakes that evolved in grassy areas are green? Desert snakes are tan, to blend in perfectly with the sand.

Now, how the hell can nature do this without intelligence? Or, outside influence. Which brings us back to God.

Here is what I feel. Adam and Eve? I don't buy it for a second. I believe God started the ball rolling. He set the universe in motion, perhaps through the Big Bang, and let it go as it would.

How else can you explain Dinosaur bones? Where do these creatures fit into the bible and Adam and Eve?

When He set the universe rolling, eventually WE turned up. Did he make the Universe so it would purposely lead to us, beings supposedly created in his image? Or, were we indeed a genetic accident which God fell in love with, perhaps because we, in some way, reminded Him of Himself?

I believe in God. I believe there must be an influence somewhere. I cannot say if I believe in Heaven or Hell, simply becuase I'm not dead, and if I have no proof, I find it hard to fathom.

I also don't believe, if there is a hell, that cussing, sex, *********ing and the such will automatically get you sent there, as some Priests used to tell me. I think that's bullshit. If you are a basically good person, and if there is a Heaven, I think you'll get in.

I FEEL God, somehow. When I pray, I feel him. Now, is this my conditioning being raised as a Catholic? I don't think so. I've never been one to have beliefs forced on me, even as a child. I put up with religion as a kid because I FELT God, in some way.

That's how I feel. I know it's convoluted and strange, but that's just me. Please don't quote me, with a step by step indictment of everything I've said. Please share your beliefs, which I will respect, and certainly not critisize.

I expect the same treatment. And, if you do critisize me, I'll just ignore, as I could give less than a shit.

 

[Ptd]

I honestly don't believe in God, or any type of higher being for that matter. I believe that some guys way long ago got bored and decided to write this story called the bible. But honestly, the bible has so many illogical holes in it. If you are an intelligent human being you know Noah didn't stay in the stomach of a fish for how many ever days it said. Also, if you scan through the bible you see Jesus mentioning all different rules you have to follow to get into heaven. Ok, so he says you have to love him an pray to him, sounds easy enough, But, then he says you must sell EVERYTHING and give to the poor, no that is no mistake or typo, he says you must sell EVERYTHING you own in order to get into heaven. Well, I don't know about you but I don't know of anybody in this world that is going to sell everything they own, but that is clearly what the Jesus states. Lastly, I'm going to tell you how I think praying is an illusion. In the bible it states when you pray, the prayer will always be answered in one of three ways, those three ways being yes, no, or wait. Ok, let me get this straight, yes, no, or wait? It seems if I pray, any scenario that comes out of my prayer is OBVIOUSLY going to be answered with yes, no, or wait. So, for all that I know, I can be praying to a jug of milk, instead of this "god", and my prayer will be answered with yes, no, or wait. You see, it's just one big illusion.

With all that said, I don't want anybody to get offended with any of what I said, I am just strictly stating my personal opinion.

 

[FOTH 3:16]

I honestly don't believe in God, or any type of higher being for that matter. I believe that some guys way long ago got bored and decided to write this story called the bible. But honestly, the bible has so many illogical holes in it. If you are an intelligent human being you know Noah didn't stay in the stomach of a fish for how many ever days it said. Also, if you scan through the bible you see Jesus mentioning all different rules you have to follow to get into heaven. Ok, so he says you have to love him an pray to him, sounds easy enough, But, then he says you must sell EVERYTHING and give to the poor, no that is no mistake or typo, he says you must sell EVERYTHING you own in order to get into heaven. Well, I don't know about you but I don't know of anybody in this world that is going to sell everything they own, but that is clearly what the Jesus states. Lastly, I'm going to tell you how I think praying is an illusion. In the bible it states when you pray, the prayer will always be answered in one of three ways, those three ways being yes, no, or wait. Ok, let me get this straight, yes, no, or wait? It seems if I pray, any scenario that comes out of my prayer is OBVIOUSLY going to be answered with yes, no, or wait. So, for all that I know, I can be praying to a jug of milk, instead of this "god", and my prayer will be answered with yes, no, or wait. You see, it's just one big illusion.

With all that said, I don't want anybody to get offended with any of what I said, I am just strictly stating my personal opinion.

Yeah Shayne, but how can you explain all the things taht happen in this world like the wars, murders, attacks and more. There has to be a higher power at work directing it.

And the Bible is not always right. In my own opinion, you must admit yourself as a sinner, accept Jesus as your savior and that he died for you, and ask the Lord to forgive you and you will be saved. You can believe what you want Shayne but follow my advice and you shall she the light. I am not trying to force you to do anything, I am trying to help you man. That is my view, and that is my advice. Wether you follow it is up to you.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Sorry, but I had to step in. I'll really try to make this my last post on the subject.

I am a very firm believer in evolution, and, as such, I am forced to admit that there are flaws in the theory. The main one being this. How can a blind force, a force with no intelligence or will behind it, sculp a creature in such a way as to make it ideal to its environment?

It's because evolution isn't nearly as finely crafted as you suggest. It takes millions of years. Actually stop and think for a second how long that is. It's a long, long, long, long, long, ridiculously long time. Why does evolution take this long to happen? Because it's random. Evolution is about mutation. Random mutation. Sometimes random mutations work, and the new mutated animals thrive as well as or better than their predecessors. However, the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of the time you just get something that doesn't work, and it ends up dead. And that's why evolution takes millions of years.

Yeah Shayne, but how can you explain all the things taht happen in this world like the wars, murders, attacks and more. There has to be a higher power at work directing it.

War: men with weapons attack other men with weapons, often to do with religious disagreement actually. Murders: some kills someone else because a) they have a good reason or b) they're insane. Attacks: well, that just falls into both other categories. If you just look at these things you can see it's because people have their own minds, to claim there's any sort of rhyme or reason beyond politics, etc. is just ridiculous.

And the Bible is not always right. In my own opinion, you must admit yourself as a sinner, accept Jesus as your savior and that he died for you, and ask the Lord to forgive you and you will be saved. You can believe what you want Shayne but follow my advice and you shall she the light. I am not trying to force you to do anything, I am trying to help you man. That is my view, and that is my advice. Wether you follow it is up to you.

You still didn't explain why you believe this. What evidence have you been given to show that it is true?

 

[Golden Standard]

Now see i don't know if religion is real or not as i really have no evidence to prove so. And also i really think that you people who say if your a good person you will get into heaven i beleive that. Cause i mean sex, *********ing, cussing if that leads you to hell that is really messed up.