Round 2: Storm vs. Darth Vader

[Барбоса]

Barbosa, find me any clip of VADER choking anyone that wasn't 5ft in front of him. A well-trained Jedi? Sure. Anakin in his prime? Sure. Vader? Absolutely not.

I present the death of Admiral Ozzel. Not entirely sure where in the Executor Vader's meditation chamber is compared to the bridge but it is far more than a few feet. Given the size of the Executor, he could even have been kilometres away when doing away with Ozzel.


Cyborg Vader might not be as in tune with the Force as his pre-Mustafar self but that does not mean that he is not still one of the most deadly adversaries in the whole SW canon. He easily has the power to throw someone who is not trained in the Force around like a rag-doll.

 

[DirtyJosé]

I present the death of Admiral Ozzel. Not entirely sure where in the Executor Vader's meditation chamber is compared to the bridge but it is far more than a few feet. Given the size of the Executor, he could even have been kilometres away when doing away with Ozzel.

I stand corrected regarding range, sir.

Cyborg Vader might not be as in tune with the Force as his pre-Mustafar self but that does not mean that he is not still one of the most deadly adversaries in the whole SW canon. He easily has the power to throw someone who is not trained in the Force around like a rag-doll.

Yes, but even in the example you've given it's far from instantaneous. You don't think his chokes leave enough time for Storm to fry him with a bolt?

 

[Барбоса]

Yes, but even in the example you've given it's far from instantaneous. You don't think his chokes leave enough time for Storm to fry him with a bolt?

Lightning itself is fast, faster than Vader, but it just does not appear out of thin air. To my knowledge, Storm does not just think about a bolt of lightning and it appears instantly. She has to concentrate on gathering the elements and manipulating the conditions that make up a lightning cloud.

As for Force Choke, the actual killing is not instantaneous but the affect of the Force is. As soon as Vader projects the Force, there is an invisible hand around the throat of Ozzel. Would Storm really be able to continue concentrating on creating lightning once that vise-like grip is around her throat? I very much doubt it.

And as I said, Vader does not need to choke her unconscious straight away or even choke her at all. Most of the other facets of Force Telekinesis would be effective. Can Storm really concentrate on gathering whatever weather phenomenon she has decided to use while she is being rag-dolled all over the place by Vader's Force powers? I don't think so.

 

[El Rev sXe]

I am still not convinced that Storm's powers work quicker that the Force.

The effects of the Force are virtually instantaneous and in the few seconds it will take Storm to conjure up any weather phenomenon, Vader has used any number of Force techniques to break her concentration - as a student of Xavier, Storm will have mental defences but Vader, or any other Sith/Jedi does not need to attack the mind; a simple but strong Force Push or Pull would be greatly effective. This will cause lead to the dissipation of whatever phenomenon she was cooking up, or at least it missing its target while leaving her open to another attack.

Even if she has managed to use air currents to raise herself off the ground, the power of weather/Nature does not trump that of the Force. A Force Pull with one hand would crash through any defences she has, slamming her to the floor. With her concentration broken and mere metres away from Vader, his free hand throws his lightsabre, maiming/killing her.

I can't find a good clip of it, but at least in the first X-men movie, Sabertooth is choking Storm and it takes Storm about 10 seconds to "prepare" a thunder to impact Sabaertooth. I think Storm can do the same thing to Vader.
That being said, I think it took vader about 15 seconds to choke to death, long enough to Storm to concentrate and incite, create or wahtever a thunder powerful enough to break Vader's concentration.

Plus Storm need to concentrate to make a ....storm. However I can see her easily using wind strong enough to deconcentrate Vader.

 

[DirtyJosé]

Exactly. Freeze him up a little bit, fuck up those joints and shit. Then BOLT that fucker right on top of his dome head. Stormy's got this.

 

[Барбоса]

I can't find a good clip of it, but at least in the first X-men movie, Sabertooth is choking Storm and it takes Storm about 10 seconds to "prepare" a thunder to impact Sabaertooth. I think Storm can do the same thing to Vader.
That being said, I think it took vader about 15 seconds to choke to death, long enough to Storm to concentrate and incite, create or wahtever a thunder powerful enough to break Vader's concentration.

Plus Storm need to concentrate to make a ....storm. However I can see her easily using wind strong enough to deconcentrate Vader.

I would say 10 seconds is more than enough for Vader to use to the Force to throw Storm about, slam her into the ground. Then again, I would not be using the X-Men movies, even if they were good, for the feats of the X-Men.

As for the cold, Vader's armour provides protection against the elements and even the vacuum of space.

 

[DirtyJosé]

I would say 10 seconds is more than enough for Vader to use to the Force to throw Storm about, slam her into the ground. Then again, I would not be using the X-Men movies, even if they were good, for the feats of the X-Men.

As for the cold, Vader's armour provides protection against the elements and even the vacuum of space.

But the worst Vader was able to do to Luke (besides taking off his hand, eventually) was throw some boxes at him while grabbing at him with the force a little bit. I just don't think Vader is in the shape to grab and pound someone like that very easily.

 

[Барбоса]

Vader's battles with Luke Skywalker should not really be taken into account in terms of what Vader can do as he either has the ulterior motive of turning him to the Dark Side to help him overthrow the Emperor - he was deadly serious about that too as it is a fundamental part of the Sith Rule of Two - or he was emotionally torn about fighting and potentially killing his son long (and we are talking years here) before he decides to kill Palpatine. In essence, he is holding back.

On top of that, despite being a novice, Luke has enough training in the Force to project a Force shield to hinder such telekinetic attacks, hence why Vader resorts to throwing other things at him instead (which include wrenching stuff off the walls rather than just some "boxes"). Storm has no such shield.

 

[DirtyJosé]

But we really don't have much else to go on as a demonstration of Vader's combat capabilities besides games maybe, and even there I'd give Storm the advantage. The evidence given by Lucas is that Darth is a shadow of what he used to be in combat.

 

[Барбоса]

But we really don't have much else to go on as a demonstration of Vader's combat capabilities besides games maybe, and even there I'd give Storm the advantage. The evidence given by Lucas is that Darth is a shadow of what he used to be in combat.

Of course, we do. Just because Vader's full combat capabilities are not in the movies does not mean they do not exist.

Post-Mustafar Vader might not be the same as his fully human self, but he is a far more well-rounded and deadly fighter having learnt from the mistakes he made against Obi-Wan and altered his fighting style to incorporate more techniques and take into account the weight of his armour. With these new techniques, in the inter-film years, he proves himself to be a ruthless killer of Jedi time and again.

Of course, a lot of that means very little when fighting Storm as she is not a duellist and his lightsabre will not deal with a lightning bolt in the same way that Mace Windu's did with the Force Lightning of Palpatine.

 

[Dirk]

In Revenge of the Sith Mace Windu uses his lightsabre to block Palpatine's lightning. Would Vader be able to do this? I absolutely don't know. If the flash would harm his circuitry, wouldn't it have killed Windu anyway?

Lightning, although Storm's signature attack, isn't her only weapon. Pretty sure she can open up the ground on which Vader's standing and he'd be pretty vulnerable (Jedi can augment their jumping abilities, but surely true flight is out of the question...)

Still leaning towards Vader, because I believe there simply isn't enough information to prove that Storm's lightning would be instantaneous or that Vader's choke wouldn't be enough to prevent her from zapping him.

 

[justinsayne]

Pretty sure Storm could just whip up a hurricane, the massive gusts of wind, & torrential rainfall should wreak havoc on Vader's cybernetics, most of his body would be rendered useless in a matter of mins. assuming the wind gusts didn't blow him away. I also imagine Storm would be able to use her lightening attacks at the same time.

 

[Kermit]

It looks like it may come down to the wire here, so I wanted to lend my written vote. I voted for Storm in this one. Storm is just too strong-minded for Vader. Storm will definitely keep her distance in this fight and use a wide range of weather to keep Vader at bay. In my opinion, Vader is going to have a hard time getting close and using his lightsaber on her.

 

[Davi323]

As much as I would love to see Vader win it all again, I cannot see how he gets past Storm. Storm is the one person who can best exploit Vader's glaring weakness. As others have pointed out, Vader is half machine. Machine + lightning = bad for the machine. Vader is very vulnerable against Storm's mutant powers, Force or not. His life depends on his circuitry, and his circuitry cannot withstand lightning strikes.It's that simple...

 

[Барбоса]

Far too much emphasis being put on Vader's vulnerability to Storm's lightning. I hate to bring the X-Men movie into things and even more to paraphrase one of it's worst lines but Vader getting struck by lightning has exactly the same outcome as virtually everything else so it is really no more of an issue than if Storm was fighting against me, except Vader has the Force at what few fingertips he has left.

Also outside of the movies, is just randomly striking people with lightning something that Aurora Munroe does? Is she even that accurate to be able to hit a moving target? None of that has been established.

I cannot help be feel that if Cyborg Vader himself was able to use Force Lightning then his use of it, despite it being more rapid than Storm's lightning - just look at how quickly Darth Sidious and Tyrannus deployed it, would come under far more scrutiny.

Furthermore, if Storm was to fight the way almost all of her supporters seem to want her to - resorting straight away to conjuring a lightning storm - she loses. In the few seconds she needs for her powers to take effect, the ruthless Vader has mashed her into a pulp with Telekinesis or maimed her.

The Force is faster than Nature.

 

[Davi323]

It has never been established in any media that I am aware of that Vader has even attempted Force Lightning, for the obvious reasons. As a Sith, he certainly would be capable of doing it, the question would be whether it be a good idea, given his cyborg components.

 

[Барбоса]

Actually Vader has used Force Lightning in the EU. Whilst having his force powers enhanced by the Kalibuur Crystal in Splinters of the Mind's Eye, although that seems to have been a one off

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

As confirmed by the official Star Wars wiki, Vader can only use Force Lighning when near the Kaiburr Cyrstal. It has also been confirmed - I believe it was something with a Darth Plag...something - that for the user to be able to legitimately use the Force Lightning ability, he would have to be first experience its effects. Looking at what just a little bit of Palpatine's powers did to Vader in Return of the Jedi, I'd say it is unlikely that he would have been able to endure the training necessary for the ability.

I'm also not sure why this debate is relevant to the fight at hand. Are we arguing that Vader could somehow use it as an offensive ability against Storm? To what end? He'd have to be in any kind of range of her, which is unlikely, and there's no promise that the electrical current would even bother her physically.

If we're arguing that being able to use the ability could mean he would be able to withstand Storm's lightning strikes, that's just silly.

 

[Барбоса]

I'm also not sure why this debate is relevant to the fight at hand. Are we arguing that Vader could somehow use it as an offensive ability against Storm? To what end? He'd have to be in any kind of range of her, which is unlikely, and there's no promise that the electrical current would even bother her physically.

If we're arguing that being able to use the ability could mean he would be able to withstand Storm's lightning strikes, that's just silly.

At no point was it suggested that Vader's ability to use Force Lightning would affect his defence, or lack thereof, towards a bolt of lightning.

I only brought it up as an example of how Vader's skills and weaknesses have been put under the microscope far more than those of Storm. It has just been assumed that she wins because "she can use lightning, which Vader is susceptible to;" it was essentially being treated as deus ex machina and I was just suggesting that if Vader was able to use Force Lightning, which would be deployed faster than an actual bolt of lightning, or Storm was fighting a Sith/Jedi that can that it would come under far more scrutiny; a point that has been aided by how you have just assumed that Storm would be able to withstand Force Lightning rather than produce any argument as to why. Physically, aside from her mutant power, is Aurora Munroe just a normal human, with no defence against such attacks?

On top of that, at no point has her actual ability to hit a moving target been established nor has the idea that Vader can pulverise her with the Force, which she has no defence against, before she could conjure up said lightning been countered.

I have no problem with admitting that I think Storm could defeat Vader but not in the scenario that has been presented so far for her ability to use lightning is much less of a deus ex machina than it is mors certa. Storm needs time to manipulate the weather and even if it is just a few seconds for the clouds to form and the friction to build up enough to produce an electrostatic discharge, that is more than enough for a ruthless killer like Darth Vader, especially when he has access to a power that acts more quickly than that of Storm and incapacitating telekinetic powers that she has no defence against.