TNA Region, Fourth Round, 60 Minute Iron Man Match: (1) John Cena vs. (4) Lou Thesz

[Navdeep]

I was watching thesz vs Gagne on YouTube and frankly speaking that was one of the most boring 55 minutes match I ever saw. Now if people think Cena can't fight dozen match like this, they are being plainly biased.
That 55 minute match is physically equal to around 15 or may 20 minute modern era match. I mean just look tlc match between edge and cena or LMS match vs Umaga and Batista or I quit match vs JBL and Orton , I will say Cena can fight many iron man match like Thesz in that Thesz era.

 

[Tastycles]

The 60 minutes thing may be a moot point, I certainly think the drawing argument is, so I'm going to look at John Cena. Cena is unquestionably the face of his generation. He has overcome everything that has come his way, but he has a bizarrely poor record against other main event faces:

He lost to Rob Van Dam at One Night Stand 2006
He lost to Batista at Summerslam 2008
He lost to CM Punk at Money in the Bank 2011
He lost to The Rock at WrestleMania XXVIII
He lost to Daniel Bryan at Summerslam 2013

There have been few other megastars to struggle against their contemporary faces as much as Cena has, and I think that has to be a factor.

 

[Miko]

Lou Thesz looks like he could be John Cena's dad, if they'd swapped era's then John Cena would look and practically be Lou Thesz (although Thesz was a legit tough guy, right? Cena's built but I reckon a lot of people could take him) and vice versa, since they also cater exactly to the audience they wrestled for.

I am tempted to vote Thesz for having Cena's bone structure before Cena did, but I am tempted to vote Cena because I've inexplicably never been asked to make a 100 top wrestler list for this tourney and kind of want to give a big fuck you to everything.

 

[Cereal Killer]

The 60 minutes thing may be a moot point, I certainly think the drawing argument is, so I'm going to look at John Cena. Cena is unquestionably the face of his generation. He has overcome everything that has come his way, but he has a bizarrely poor record against other main event faces:

He lost to Rob Van Dam at One Night Stand 2006
He lost to Batista at Summerslam 2008
He lost to CM Punk at Money in the Bank 2011
He lost to The Rock at WrestleMania XXVIII
He lost to Daniel Bryan at Summerslam 2013

There have been few other megastars to struggle against their contemporary faces as much as Cena has, and I think that has to be a factor.

I understand this argument but RVD and Punk hardly won cleanly in those matches. Edge had assisted RVD and Laurinaitis had distracted Cena in the match with Punk. Thesz wasn't a heel as far as I'm aware so I doubt he'll cheat in order to win; one of the reasons Cena has lost many times to heels.

Furthermore, he had defeated The Rock and Batista at Wrestlemania after those losses.

I guess you can argue Bryan but you can't forget that Cena's arm wasn't in the best condition at the time, hence he had surgery afterwards, only to return months before he was expected to and won the World Heavyweight Championship at Hell In A Cell.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

We're in a TNA ring, a company which didn't even come into existence until a little over 10 years ago. We're comparing these wrestlers in their prime and, in their primes, Cena is far better suited for the match he and Thesz would have, especially in a TNA ring.

But that's the only argument I've even seen being made for Thesz. "He worked 60 minutes all the time". Yeah, well, that was what they did at the time. So you're telling me it's okay to give Thesz credit for the time era he worked but not have to suffer any of the drawbacks? That doesn't seem like a very honest argument.

Well, we're wrestling in a ring of a company which didn't even exist until 2002. Furthermore, Thesz is working against John Cena, who DOES work the modern style, whether Thesz likes it or not.

So Thesz is working against a modern wrestler in a modern region and just can't simply lay around for 60 minutes. I see no where Thesz has an advantage over Cena, aside from the fact people just sometimes like to vote for the oldies because they are old.

Is that how you want this to be done for henceforth? This is will be the sheer opening of a Pandora's box of illogical reasons because for every TNA region matchup, each and every wrestler behind 2000 will lose and lose a plenty.

I understand this argument but RVD and Punk hardly won cleanly in those matches. Edge had assisted RVD and Laurinaitis had distracted Cena in the match with Punk. Thesz wasn't a heel as far as I'm aware so I doubt he'll cheat in order to win; one of the reasons Cena has lost many times to heels.

Furthermore, he had defeated The Rock and Batista at Wrestlemania after those losses.

I guess you can argue Bryan but you can't forget that Cena's arm wasn't in the best condition at the time, hence he had surgery afterwards, only to return months before he was expected to and won the World Heavyweight Championship at Hell In A Cell.

Cena was an ass and Johnny Ace didn't distract Cena, Cena went and attacked him when Mr. Laryngitis was calling for the bell.

He beat a one Mania man in Rock, and a heel Batista that was leaving the company.


Cena's arm....really!

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Let's see:

• It's 'dishonest' to argue that Thesz went 60 minutes all the time because that was how it was done in his era is one of the arguments against Thesz?
  
• A lot of what Thesz did was use rest holds like headlocks during those 60 minute matches, which Cena can handle easily?

Technically... this is correct. And yes, Cena can go 60 minutes if he has to as he's shown, and he can do it without as many rest spots.

Just leaving it like that though, is as dishonest an argument for Cena as simply saying that Thesz goes 60 minutes without breaking a sweat. It's ignoring that in Cena's era, if he's doing a 60 minute match, it's only one... and he's been given plenty of shorter matches leading up to it so he's not burnt out before the big 60 minute match. At most, before and after that long match, you'll probably see Cena working maybe 15 minutes in a match. More likely between 5 and 10. Because they want him to be able to go all out as much as he's capable of for the full 60.

With Thesz though, that wasn't an option. He'd have to keep doing it every night, and I don't care how well conditioned you are... you're not going all out in a wrestling ring for 60 minutes every night of the week.

So of course Thesz worked a slower pace in his matches. He didn't have another choice. If he didn't, he would have burnt out in no time, and no one would have ever heard of the guy today.

In this match though, you have to assume that both competitors have been given the same advantages with rest and preparation prior to the match. A guy like Thesz... will not have a problem working a faster pace. In fact, considering how well he was conditioned... he likely would have Cena trying to keep up with him. If he didn't, being the better ring tactician he could force Cena to work a pace that would suit him best. Literally. Lou Thesz could impose his will on pretty much any human being he came across. John Cena, for all he's done, just doesn't have the skills to be the exception to that rule.

A fact that I like for this match, although it doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with wrestling is this:

• The US Army enlisted Lou Thesz to teach their soldiers hand to hand combat. Essentially, the largest army in the world asked Lou Thesz to teach them how to fight.
  
• The US Army enlists John Cena to entertain them

I fail to see how the TNA ring matters here. Sure they didn't have anything like that in Thesz's time... but Cena's never worked in anything like that either. Going into the match, assuming that both participants have the same ability to prepare for their match, they'd each have to spar in the ring to get familiar with it. Thesz's superior combat training would likely give him an advantage in adapting to the foreign surroundings. And it's not like top wrestlers who went to TNA had problems quickly adapting to the ring. Kurt Angle is about as close to a modern comparable to Thesz that there is. He didn't have any issue adapting.

Thesz has this match. I'd give the final tally to him 3-2 or 3-1. One of the things John Cena is more than happy to do is lose to the major babyface in a big event. That's exactly what this is, and that's exactly what he'd do here.

 

[#tamale]

What finisher can Thesz use which will keep John Cena down? Does he even have a finisher strong enough to keep Cena down? Cena has kicked out of various finishers by other top superstars. Cena hasn't tapped out to anyone since 2004.

For 60 minutes, Cena and Thesz will have a classic match but at the end of the day, Cena wins because he does have more ways to put away Thesz.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Cena was an ass and Johnny Ace didn't distract Cena, Cena went and attacked him when Mr. Laryngitis was calling for the bell.

And so took his attention away from the match he was winning. I'm sure that's a distraction. Besides, Punk never beat Cena clean. Cena has beaten Punk clean.

He beat a one Mania man in Rock, and a heel Batista that was leaving the company.

Nevertheless, they lost. What does being a heel have to do with it? Batista would have done anything to win that match, just look at the weeks building up to that show. Remember when he demolished Cena to end Raw? If you're implying "heels lose at 'Mania main events", watch the WrestleMania main events of 2000, X-7, 27 and 31.

Cena's arm....really!

Well yeah you can argue. The same arm he had surgery on. Besides, you DO use your arms to wrestle.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Nevertheless, they lost. What does being a heel have to do with it? Batista would have done anything to win that match, just look at the weeks building up to that show. Remember when he demolished Cena to end Raw? If you're implying "heels lose at 'Mania main events", watch the WrestleMania main events of 2000, X-7, 27 and 31.

Are you for real boy! Batista was on his way out and Cena lost to Rock the Mania before and then beat him. Noone implied heels always lose but he beat a heel leaving Batista, while losing to the full time face Batista clean at SSlam.

Cena has lost to the the top faces of his time and once to a face of the era before him in The Rock, before tying it up next Mania.

 

[Con T.]

Slyfox is right. The era of modern wrestling has brought in so many new nuances that Thesz just isn't accustomed to. The wrestling audience has changed, and it's probably fair to say that the wrestling has changed to adapt to the taste's of the audience. Thesz is a legend, but also a product of his time, in stark contrast to the state of wrestling.

So, while Slyfox is trumpeting the case for John Cena over Lou Thesz, I'm sure he also voted Daniel Bryan over Bruno Sammartino. I'd be shocked if he didn't. Shocked, I say...

 

[Cereal Killer]

Are you for real boy! Batista was on his way out and Cena lost to Rock the Mania before and then beat him. Noone implied heels always lose but he beat a heel leaving Batista, while losing to the full time face Batista clean at SSlam.

Cena has lost to the the top faces of his time and once to a face of the era before him in The Rock, before tying it up next Mania.

You're raising the argument that Rock beat Cena but I think you're ignoring the fact that he also lost to Cena in their most recent match.

We're speaking kayfabe wise here by the way. Cena still beat Batista and actually, Batista left after having 2 more PPV bouts with Cena. A last man standing match and an I-quit match. Guess who won both.

 

[Con T.]

Are people forgetting that athletes are much better conditioned today than ever before? That diets are better, training is better and the knowledge around that field is far more superior today than in the '50s?

So what if Thesz fought in more 60 minute matches? Cena is the more athletic star and competing in his first Money In The Bank match didn't stop him from winning it, bearing in mind all of the other names in that match in 2012 had appeared in more MITB matches. Second Iron-Man match or not, I'm going to go with Cena.

Gosh darn it, you're right. Like, so totally right. Like, it hurts me how right you are about this. I actually want to punch myself, and cause physical pain, by how much I agree with this sentiment.

Which is why I'm sure that you, like Slyfox, also voted Daniel Bryan over Bruno Sammartino.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Gosh darn it, you're right. Like, so totally right. Like, it hurts me how right you are about this. I actually want to punch myself, and cause physical pain, by how much I agree with this sentiment.

Which is why I'm sure that you, like Slyfox, also voted Daniel Bryan over Bruno Sammartino.

You do know he may have actually voted D Bry over Bruno right. That poll has gone insane

 

[Cereal Killer]

Gosh darn it, you're right. Like, so totally right. Like, it hurts me how right you are about this. I actually want to punch myself, and cause physical pain, by how much I agree with this sentiment.

Which is why I'm sure that you, like Slyfox, also voted Daniel Bryan over Bruno Sammartino.

I had a feeling someone would point this out. Here's the difference in the two situations:

Thesz used to go on and on about "hooking" or whatever it was called, this is the kind of wrestling where you apply several holds and is what Thesz used to do for several minutes in a match. Sammartino did it a lot less. Actually, Thesz had criticized Sammartino's in ring performance. Sammartino's style was a lot more modern.

Anyway, let's look at the stipulations. This is a normal one vs one bout only for 60 minutes. The other is a TLC match. In the iron man match, Cena would win for reasons explained. In the TLC, there are tables, ladders and chairs. I'm sure Sammartino knows how to use all three and because of his strength and skill, I believe he'd win that match. He wouldn't only have to use his wrestling ability but he'd be able to use weapons which anybody, regardless of their generation can use.

I understand where you're getting at but Thesz and Sammartino are two completely different people (with the former getting in to the industry many years before) and they are in two completely different matches.

 

[Bernkastel]

What finisher can Thesz use which will keep John Cena down? Does he even have a finisher strong enough to keep Cena down? Cena has kicked out of various finishers by other top superstars. Cena hasn't tapped out to anyone since 2004.

For 60 minutes, Cena and Thesz will have a classic match but at the end of the day, Cena wins because he does have more ways to put away Thesz.

Thesz would simply outmaneuver Cena into pinning predicaments. Wrestlers still lose by being rolled up or bridged in 2014, right? He doesn't need to perform a bunch of power moves to keep Cena down. That isn't his style. But since the "Suplex City" argument is being used heavily this year, guess who was the architect for most of the infrastructure? Lou Thesz.

What happened last time Cena fought a resident of Suplex City? He got blown out. Thesz would wear down Cena with throw after throw before outmaneuvering him with a bridge or roll up.

Thesz wins.

 

[Bernkastel]

I had a feeling someone would point this out. Here's the difference in the two situations:

Thesz used to go on and on about "hooking" or whatever it was called, this is the kind of wrestling where you apply several holds and is what Thesz used to do for several minutes in a match. Sammartino did it a lot less. Actually, Thesz had criticized Sammartino's in ring performance. Sammartino's style was a lot more modern.

Anyway, let's look at the stipulations. This is a normal one vs one bout only for 60 minutes. The other is a TLC match. In the iron man match, Cena would win for reasons explained. In the TLC, there are tables, ladders and chairs. I'm sure Sammartino knows how to use all three and because of his strength and skill, I believe he'd win that match. He wouldn't only have to use his wrestling ability but he'd be able to use weapons which anybody, regardless of their generation can use.

I understand where you're getting at but Thesz and Sammartino are two completely different people (with the former getting in to the industry many years before) and they are in two completely different matches.

And Thesz's in ring style didn't become modernized when he worked into the 60's and 70's? Why don't you go watch his matches with Sammartino, watch him work heel, and tell me he wasn't "modern." That's if you'd call Sammartino "modern."

And for those of you thinking that because this is in TNA, and that Cena should win, who is TNA's top star? Kurt Angle. And what type of wrestling style does he work? Right. And Cena should defeat a technician in a company whose top star is one of the best technical wrestlers ever.

I don't see it. Neither should any other logical person.

 

[Cereal Killer]

What happened last time Cena fought a resident of Suplex City? He got blown out. Thesz would wear down Cena with throw after throw before outmaneuvering him with a bridge or roll up.

There's a huge difference in the power of Brock Lesnar and Lou Thesz. Thesz would find it difficult to deliver that many suplexes to a man of such size and strength. Besides, it wasn't the suplexes which put Cena down for the 3 count. That was the F5.

And Thesz's in ring style didn't become modernized when he worked into the 60's and 70's? Why don't you go watch his matches with Sammartino, watch him work heel, and tell me he wasn't "modern." That's if you'd call Sammartino "modern."

I wasn't saying Sammartino's style was completely modern but it was closer to today's than the way Thesz used to work. We're also assuming they're in their primes here, Thesz wasn't a heel in his prime. If we're assuming they both fought how modern day pro wrestlers do so, I'm sure the top star of a "modern" wrestling company would beat a guy who comes from an era in which you lay on the floor. Thesz did indeed create several moves and I'm not taking anything away from his legacy, I just think Cena would beat him.

And for those of you thinking that because this is in TNA, and that Cena should win, who is TNA's top star? Kurt Angle. And what type of wrestling style does he work? Right. And Cena should defeat a technician in a company whose top star is one of the best technical wrestlers ever.

Cena beat Angle. Just because someone's a technician, doesn't mean they're most likely to win. Also, Angle does a lot more than holds in his matches. He's had several brawls in the past which I'm sure you've seen. There's a huge difference in what Thesz did and Angle does. What Sly was trying to say is that TNA wouldn't allow a match in which you simply do holds and wrestle technically. I mean, recently the company has increased the amount of hardcore matches they have and it's a very aggressive style in which the stars use, which is very different to how it was in the '50s.

 

[#tamale]

What happened last time Cena fought a resident of Suplex City? He got blown out. Thesz would wear down Cena with throw after throw before outmaneuvering him with a bridge or roll up.

With one major difference. Lesnar outweights Cena by 50 pounds. Cena outweighs Thesz by about 25 pounds. How would Thesz throw Cena around? Also, when was the last time Cena actually lost by a bridge or roll up?

Thesz does not have enough to keep Cena down.

 

[Bernkastel]

With one major difference. Lesnar outweights Cena by 50 pounds. Cena outweighs Thesz by about 25 pounds. How would Thesz throw Cena around? Also, when was the last time Cena actually lost by a bridge or roll up?

Thesz does not have enough to keep Cena down.

The same way he threw men like Don Leo Johnathon, Big Bill Miller, and Killer Kowalski [all larger than Cena. The former 2 were actually bigger than Lesnar.]

Does it matter if Cena has lost to a roll up or bridge recently? If he'slost that way before, he could lose that way again. Based on that logic the AA wouldn't keep Thesz down because everyone and their mother kicks out of it nowadays.

Also Cena was KO'd recently. Thesz could most certainly do that.

 

[Cereal Killer]

The same way he threw men like Don Leo Johnathon, Big Bill Miller, and Killer Kowalski [all larger than Cena. The former 2 were actually bigger than Lesnar.

Like I said before, athletes are better conditioned today than they were in the past. While those three may have been bigger than Cena and the first two may have been bigger than Lesnar, were they stronger than Cena and Lesnar?

 

[Bernkastel]

Like I said before, athletes are better conditioned today than they were in the past. While those three may have been bigger than Cena and the first two may have been bigger than Lesnar, were they stronger than Cena and Lesnar?

Don Leo Johnathon once tore the turnbuckle from the ring post and beat Andre halfway to unconsciousness with it. He had enough strength and power to match Andre's. The "athlete's are better conditioned today" argument is pretty bad. Thesz would throw Cena around. Take him on a tour of Suplex City [again] and then pin him with superior technique. No amount of He-man strength will save Cena. Especially when he's been beaten by smaller wrestlers than Thesz like Daniel Bryan and Dean Ambrose.

 

[Cereal Killer]

The "athlete's are better conditioned today" argument is pretty bad.

It's the truth, which is why Thesz and other wrestlers from the past would struggle against somebody like John Cena. Thesz did indeed defeat many top stars of his time, which is what you're trying to get across. But look at those words, "of his time."

Thesz would throw Cena around. Take him on a tour of Suplex City [again] and then pin him with superior technique.

There's no doubt that he can suplex Cena but can he do it in a manner Brock Lesnar did so? Throughout his career, Thesz did indeed wrestle in these 60 minute matches quite often. But again, they required less effort than what an iron man match today would require. I'm not saying what they did was a walk in the park, obviously it wasn't, but if you watch a 60 minute Thesz match and compare it to Cena's hour match with Michaels or Orton, you'll see the difference. What I'm trying to get at is if Thesz fought more actively in order to keep up with Cena, he would be extremely tired after a while as he wouldn't be used to such a pace in a small amount of time. In that match with HBK, 40 minutes in and Cena doesn't look that bad.

No amount of He-man strength will save Cena. Especially when he's been beaten by smaller wrestlers than Thesz like Daniel Bryan and Dean Ambrose.

Well, he's beaten many wrestlers bigger than him such as the Big Show, The Great Khali, HHH, The Rock and Batista as well as wrestlers smaller than him such as Punk, Ambrose, Jericho, Guerrero and Angle. He even lifted both Edge and The Big Show up on his shoulders. Not many stars are undefeated you know. Not even Thesz.

 

[Con T.]

I had a feeling someone would point this out. Here's the difference in the two situations:

Thesz used to go on and on about "hooking" or whatever it was called, this is the kind of wrestling where you apply several holds and is what Thesz used to do for several minutes in a match. Sammartino did it a lot less. Actually, Thesz had criticized Sammartino's in ring performance. Sammartino's style was a lot more modern.

Anyway, let's look at the stipulations. This is a normal one vs one bout only for 60 minutes. The other is a TLC match. In the iron man match, Cena would win for reasons explained. In the TLC, there are tables, ladders and chairs. I'm sure Sammartino knows how to use all three and because of his strength and skill, I believe he'd win that match. He wouldn't only have to use his wrestling ability but he'd be able to use weapons which anybody, regardless of their generation can use.

I understand where you're getting at but Thesz and Sammartino are two completely different people (with the former getting in to the industry many years before) and they are in two completely different matches.

Yeah, sorry, calling bullshit on this.

Bryan is more athletic and quicker than Sammartino, both of which play vital roles in the ladder match. A ladder match that, frankly, Bruno would want no part in.

Listen, if you're going to argue the Cena, the modern athlete, has an edge over Thesz, fine. But be consistent about it; Bryan's a superior athlete to Bruno, he's quicker, and has more experience in ladder matches. And yet, this seems to matter less to you, than the fact that Bruno is better (which he is).

So, either one of two things are happening here;

A. You seem confused as to Bruno's actual wrestling style, and never really watched a Bruno Sammartino match.

B. You really don't buy all that much into your main argument.

Then again, it could just as easily be Both

 

[Cereal Killer]

Bryan is more athletic and quicker than Sammartino, both of which play vital roles in the ladder match. A ladder match that, frankly, Bruno would want no part in.

Listen, if you're going to argue the Cena, the modern athlete, has an edge over Thesz, fine. But be consistent about it; Bryan's a superior athlete to Bruno, he's quicker, and has more experience in ladder matches. And yet, this seems to matter less to you, than the fact that Bruno is better (which he is).

Like I said before, Bruno's match with Bryan isn't a single one vs one bout. It's a TLC and because of reasons explained, Bruno would win. The match with Cena and Thesz is completely different and the way Thesz and Sammartino wrestled weren't exactly the same.

 

[Con T.]

Like I said before, Bruno's match with Bryan isn't a single one vs one bout. It's a TLC and because of reasons explained, Bruno would win. The match with Cena and Thesz is completely different and the way Thesz and Sammartino wrestled weren't exactly the same.

Your reasoning was that Bruno could swing a weapon, and that he was stronger. That strength is going to do so well in a match that favors speed.

Look, the logic just isn't there; it's inconsistent to say Lou Thesz is going to have issues with the complexities of wrestling a modern day match, while Bruno is going to just coast by. If the affects of a modern day wrestling match is enough to affect Lou Thesz, one of the greatest of all time, to the point that he won't win, then surely it has to affect Bruno, too.

But sure, Bruno can swing a weapon, cool.