WCW Houston, Round 2, Match 4: #10: Yokozuna vs. #23 Mitsuharu Misawa

[Shocky]

The following match takes place in the WCW Region, where the ring and entrance are equal height, from Houston, Tx.

#10. Yokozuna

vs.

#23. Mitsuharu Misawa

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

BANZAI!

That's all that really needs to be said about Yokozuna in this match. The Grand Champion isn't actually Japanese, he's Samoan. However Misawa would confuse the big man for a while, until a big kick to the face takes down Misawa. FIVE Banzai drops later, Yoko moves on and drapes the Japanese flag over Misawa.

BANZAI!!! I love that word. Remember Tojo Yamamoto using that all the time in Memphis? His was funnier.

 

[klunderbunker]

I'm going to go with Misawa here. Bret Hart beat Yokozuna, and Misawa is a bigger and stronger Bret Hart. All you have to do to beat Yoko is get him down one time. Misawa is able to tire out Yoko and get him down. As long as Yoko can't get his hands on him, Misawa moves on.

 

[Big Sexy]

In his prime Yokozuna only lost to Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, and the Undertaker. He has also beaten Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, and the Undertaker. I don't know much about Misawa, but I do know that he is not Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, or the Undertaker. Win goes to Yoko.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

I'm going to go with Misawa here. Bret Hart beat Yokozuna, and Misawa is a bigger and stronger Bret Hart. All you have to do to beat Yoko is get him down one time. Misawa is able to tire out Yoko and get him down. As long as Yoko can't get his hands on him, Misawa moves on.

Bret's win was an abhorration. Bret was 1-1 against Yokozuna, and in both matches he was totally dominated for 90% of the match. Hart only beat Yoko because Yoko slipped off the top rope at the end of the match, allowing Hart the pin. Yoko had also wrestled Lex Luger - and won - far more recently than Bret had lost a textbook wrestling match against Owen. Let's also not forget the referee was Roddy Piper...

Yoko in his prime beats Bret probably 4 out of 5 times. Bret didn't have the strength to beat Yoko, neither does Misawa. VERY few people can defeat the Grand Champion, and Misawa isn't that man.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Bret's win was an abhorration. Bret was 1-1 against Yokozuna, and in both matches he was totally dominated for 90% of the match. Hart only beat Yoko because Yoko slipped off the top rope at the end of the match, allowing Hart the pin. Yoko had also wrestled Lex Luger - and won - far more recently than Bret had lost a textbook wrestling match against Owen. Let's also not forget the referee was Roddy Piper...

Yoko in his prime beats Bret probably 4 out of 5 times. Bret didn't have the strength to beat Yoko, neither does Misawa. VERY few people can defeat the Grand Champion, and Misawa isn't that man.

You've got to be kidding me, right? Do you know how important Misawa is to the world of professional wrestling? I would argue that he's the greatest professional wrestler to ever come out of Japan. Besides holding the record for having the most five star matches as rated by Dave Meltzer, being a mainstay and top draw for AJPW for many years, and then leaving that company to form Pro Wrestling NOAH (which is now just as important and big as both NJPW and AJPW), wrestling-wise, Misawa is the perfect mix of technical finesse and smash-mouth stiffness. Furthermore, his deceiving looks only mean that people are that much more blown away when they see how effin' BEAST he is in the ring.

On the other hand, you have Yokozuna, an admittedly significant wrestler during the 1990s. But, Yokozuna was significant precisely because of his booking; the only thing people can really say about him is that he held the WWF title for almost a year. Also, if memory serves me correct, even with his monstrous size, he never was able to win clean (Mr. Fuji threw salt/foreign substances in the eyes of Bret Hart and Hulk Hogan; he only won his match with Luger at WM X because of a DQ; and, about five or six other wrestlers had to help him in his Casket Match against The Undertaker at Royal Rumble '94). Furthermore, what did Yokozuna bring to the ring besides being huge? He was nowhere as agile and quick as the other wrestlers in your Super Heavyweight Camp. Moreover, he struggled with the Bonsai Drop on almost every occasion he went to the second rope to perform the maneuver. Also, one more thing should be mentioned: besides a tag team run with Owen Hart, Yokozuna never sniffed the gold again; in fact, he became a jobber to the stars during the end of his three or four year career in the WWF.

All of this isn't to say that Misawa could manhandle Yokozuna; I don't think it would be possible for Misawa to pick him up. But, Misawa could sure as hell find a myriad of other ways to put the 'Zuna away.

Pick: Misawa

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Hey T-Digs, you're attacking my point all wrong. I am not questioning Misawa's influence, importance, etc. I get that. I research Japanese wrestling a lot, especially in these tournaments.

But it's a bad draw for the legend. He's taking on a man who, in his prime at 505 lbs, was bigger and more dominant than anyone, while maintaining the agility of many 400-pounders.

And you complain about Yoko's use of Fuji's salt and the photographer - he's a heel, man. And what makes you think the same won't happen this time against Misawa?

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Hey T-Digs, you're attacking my point all wrong. I am not questioning Misawa's influence, importance, etc. I get that. I research Japanese wrestling a lot, especially in these tournaments.

I'm not calling in to question your knowledge of Japanese wrestling. I was genuinely shocked that you would pick Yokozuna over Misawa. I will now elaborate on why I think Yokozuna would never go over Misawa (this has a lot to do with the match being in WCW).

But it's a bad draw for the legend. He's taking on a man who, in his prime at 505 lbs, was bigger and more dominant than anyone, while maintaining the agility of many 400-pounders.

You will have to convince me of this. I never saw Yokozuna as agile as other Super Heavyweights, such as Vader, Bam Bam Bigelow, and Andre (in the 1970s). I think the only reason why one can call him agile is because, given his weight, he shouldn't even have been able to wrestle. I commend him for being so massive and having the ability to main-event in the WWF for a year, but, that's about all I can say for him. Yokozuna seemed like a threat because of just how big he was. He could literally just drop and he would probably hit you if you were in the ring with him.

And you complain about Yoko's use of Fuji's salt and the photographer - he's a heel, man. And what makes you think the same won't happen this time against Misawa?

I'll change my position a little bit, as you bring up a good point here. If this were in WWE, I could definitely see Yokozuna going over Misawa. But, this is in WCW, a company that has never had a thing for super heavyweights. For proof, I offer the timeline of the WCW World Heavyweight Championship (we all know where to find it). There were only two super heavyweights who ever touched this belt: Vader and The Giant/The Big Show. Why did Vader win the belt? Because he was just as fast and agile as most of the wrestlers in WCW during his tenure there while having about 120 to 150 lbs. on everyone. Why did The Giant/The Big Show win the belt? Well, because, as some of us old folk around here can attest to (read: anyone over the age of 21), The Giant used to be a fine human specimen who was reminiscent of Andre during his heyday.

Unfortunately, Yokozuna flat out pales in comparison to both of these super heavyweights. In order to have been a formidable and intimidating super heavyweight in WCW, one must have brought something to the table that most super heavyweights couldn't bring. All Yokozuna really brought to the table was being a super super heavyweight.

Also, Misawa knows all about sneaky heels. Admittedly, he never wrestled The Great Muta (except in one tag match, to the best of my knowledge, and that was after Muta started wrestling as Keiji Mutoh), but I'm pretty sure word got around about that rat bastard all over Honshu. So, Misawa knows what's what when it comes to underhanded tactics. Thus, this only increases his chances of a win in WCW. A great wrestler whom everyone in WCW would have loads of respect for? Check. An opponent who would have been scoffed at in WCW? Check. A high probability of knowing about the slimiest heel to ever (dis)grace a wrestling ring? Check.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

In his prime, when he was about 505, I thought Yokozuna was extremely agile for his size. I remember comparing him to Andre around WM III, who was just 15 pounds heavier at the time, and I remember thinking that Yoko would run circles around him. I know Andre wasn't in his prime, but you have to consider exactly who could be in their prime weighing 500 pounds no matter what their age.

I'll never consider Yokozuna to be a great athlete but he did seem to have some impressive physical stamina for a man of his size. A guy Yokozuna's size is always going to be difficult to handle. The man's ass was bigger than my first car. As for Misawa, the guy is legendary yes. He's have some classic matches and, in terms of general skill, is arguably the best Japanese wrestler of them all. I know Dave Meltzer has a perpetual hard on for the guy. I could see him getting past Yokozuna, it wouldn't surprise me a bit. But I don't think it'll happen here.

In most situations, all Yoko has to do is hit a single huge move and its over. With his weight, a simple move like an elbow drop or a leg drop can truly be devestating. If he manages to hit that one big move, if Misawa makes a mistake, and Yoko is able to hit a splash or, worse, the Banzai Drop, then it's over. I have to give this one to Yoko.

 

[Tastycles]

If Santo's successes don't count, neither do Misawa's, that's what I say to you Tdigle...

Hart's win over Yokozuna has to be the least satisfying end to a title match ever, it looked lame as.

Now for my actual argument. Misawa was great, but very few people beat Yokozuna. To beat him, you had to use extreme power, or, as in the case of Hart and Hogan, dumb luck, to win. Misawa would be able to wear the big man down, but as far as I'm aware, all of Misawa's match finishing moves involve lifting someone up quite high, and there is no way he'd be able to do that. I think Yoko would win, but I respect Misawa's greatness and could be swayed to vote for him potentially.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

If Santo's successes don't count, neither do Misawa's, that's what I say to you Tdigle...

Hart's win over Yokozuna has to be the least satisfying end to a title match ever, it looked lame as.

Now for my actual argument. Misawa was great, but very few people beat Yokozuna. To beat him, you had to use extreme power, or, as in the case of Hart and Hogan, dumb luck, to win. Misawa would be able to wear the big man down, but as far as I'm aware, all of Misawa's match finishing moves involve lifting someone up quite high, and there is no way he'd be able to do that. I think Yoko would win, but I respect Misawa's greatness and could be swayed to vote for him potentially.

You are very right about this, Tastycles, in that Misawa's arsenal of moves used to consist of almost nothing but slams and suplexes. Fortunately for Misawa, like The Great Muta, he has been able to transition into a style of wrestling that relies a lot more on brawling that is still very effective in incapacitating his opponents (admittedly, he isn't as exciting as he used to be, but, even in middle age, he is still an excellent wrestler). And, I would be a hypocritical and slimy piece of shit if I didn't provide some video evidence as to why Misawa could and should go over Yokozuna here. However, I am going to use Misawa in his second prime here, as the somewhat slower brawler who doesn't rely so much on slams and suplexes. I think this is fair, given that it is easy to argue that Misawa is one of those rare wrestlers who has had two primes, or one long, continuous prime that could be broken down into two periods based on the distinct styles that he uses in each. All right, here goes.

First, I need to establish that Misawa could go over a super heavyweight, even at a relatively old age. So, I will use as evidence here Misawa's match against Samoa Joe on 27 October 2007 for Pro Wrestling NOAH's GHC Heavyweight Title:

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This was quite a back and forth match, and a slobberknocker, but Misawa eked out the win here. If anything, this match shows how much punishment Misawa can still take (from someone that is arguably just as strong as Yokozuna and who is a hell of a lot faster), and how much he can still dish out with a repertoire of moves that mainly consists of grounding maneuvers, arm bars, and punches. So, I think this match is evidence enough to establish that Misawa is capable of handling big men.

Now, it needs to be shown that someone as small as Misawa was capable of beating Yokozuna, and that this wrestler beat Yokozuna on his own merit rather than on being able to capitalize on Yokozuna's blunders. As evidence, I present Yokozuna's match with Shawn Michaels on the 29 January 1996 edition of Monday Night RAW:

[youtube]MDB2YQ_fv6I[/youtube]

[youtube]rzELpUjxR8Q[/youtube]​

Personally, I think this match soundly demonstrates that smaller wrestlers were more than capable of beating Yokozuna. Of course, two arguments could be made against me here, and I will address them now.

The first objection that could be made is that this was not during Yokozuna's prime. In response, I would argue that this was indeed during Yokozuna's prime, as I don't see any noticeable difference between what he did during his time as the WWF Heavyweight Champion and what he did in this match. Rather, the only difference between the Yokozuna of 1993-1994 and the Yokozuna of 1996 was that the WWF let on to how he could be beat. As a result, we, as viewers, were shown that Yokozuna could be beat as long as any of his opponents came in to their match with him with a reasoned strategy. Obviously, Michael's strategy in this match was to outrun him and attack him from the ropes, and it was very successful, even with Cornette's faction at ringside.

The second objection that could be made would be a response to the first objection, which is that Misawa's movesets have never included many high-flying moves. Thus, he would be forced to mat wrestle Yokozuna, and that would not bode well for him. In response, I would argue that a sound mat wrestler could easily beat Yokozuna, as long as they had a little bit of speed and a strategy (Misawa has enough speed to outrun Yokozuna, even in middle age, and his matches have always shown that he's a strategist). Unlike most of Yokozuna's opponents during his almost year long run as the WWF Heavyweight champion, Misawa wouldn't try to test Yokozuna's strength or try to out-power him. Rather, I would predict that Misawa would lure him into corners, dodge him, hit him with a few punches, and try to work his legs a little to get him on the ground to wear him out with submission maneuvers. Then, when he had sapped Yokozuna's energy, he would deal him a blow to the back of the head and pin him for the 3 count.

 

[Tastycles]

First, I need to establish that Misawa could go over a super heavyweight, even at a relatively old age. So, I will use as evidence here Misawa's match against Samoa Joe on 27 October 2007 for Pro Wrestling NOAH's GHC Heavyweight Title:

Samoa Joe is a fat bastard, don't get me wrong, but he isn't in the same league as Yokozuna when it comes to being huge. I have been convinced of the fact Misawa could take a beating from Yokozuna pretty well, if nothing else by watching this.

The first objection that could be made is that this was not during Yokozuna's prime. In response, I would argue that this was indeed during Yokozuna's prime, as I don't see any noticeable difference between what he did during his time as the WWF Heavyweight Champion and what he did in this match. Rather, the only difference between the Yokozuna of 1993-1994 and the Yokozuna of 1996 was that the WWF let on to how he could be beat. As a result, we, as viewers, were shown that Yokozuna could be beat as long as any of his opponents came in to their match with him with a reasoned strategy. Obviously, Michael's strategy in this match was to outrun him and attack him from the ropes, and it was very successful, even with Cornette's faction at ringside.

This is the objection I'm about to make. It is the one I made in Undertaker vs. Khali, and is the one I'll make here. Yokozuna may have looked exactly the same in 1996, but he wasn't booked the same way, meaning that in kayfabe he was weaker. It's something that is unique to wrestling in that the prime of a wrestler isn't when they are the fittest, but when they are the most successful. In 1993 Yokozuna was a dominant superbeast, in 1996 he had had long periods out with fatbastarditis and had nil momentum. Also I think he was a bit heavier and slower too by this point.

The second objection that could be made would be a response to the first objection, which is that Misawa's movesets have never included many high-flying moves. Thus, he would be forced to mat wrestle Yokozuna, and that would not bode well for him. In response, I would argue that a sound mat wrestler could easily beat Yokozuna, as long as they had a little bit of speed and a strategy (Misawa has enough speed to outrun Yokozuna, even in middle age, and his matches have always shown that he's a strategist).

This is wrong. Bret Hart made heavy work of beating him, and indeed lost against him. Hogan beat him by fluke, the only person who decisevly beat him in his prime was probably the Undertaker who had previously been merked by him and team Cornette.

However, in watching these videos something hit me. Hart beat Yokozuna by lasting long enough for Yoko to fuck up. Misawa is a master of long matches, whereas the longest match I've seen Yoko have was the one against Luger at Summerslam 1993, which he lost by countout and was about 17 minutes long. I think Misawa would basically get destroyed for about 15 minutes, but have enough left in the tank to beat Yokozuna in a shit, contrived way, but a win nonetheless.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

All right, so far the Japanese legend is losing to Yokozuna 5-2. Tastycles elaborated on a point that I only mentioned in passing in one of my previous posts in this thread, and I would like to reiterate it here: Misawa, kayfabe, can sustain a lot of punishment, arguably even more than Mick Foley. Misawa's opponents rarely, if ever, go over Misawa right after their first attempts to put him away with their finishers. As evidenced by his match with Samoa Joe in this thread, Misawa also has a lot of stamina. So, I don't see how Yokozuna could beat Misawa, as he would probably have to banzai drop him at least five times, and Yokozuna would probably faint from exhaustion before he could finally put Misawa down for the three count.

Also, I hate to do this, but I have to in this instance as I feel very passionately about Misawa's wrestling. Here is a list of people who have voted for Yokozuna, as of 12 AM EDT on 24 April 2009:

Big Sexy
CENAtion
DODGE_THIS!
DX821
jedimasterwiggy

Big Sexy's good in my book, as at least he posted his reasons for voting for Yokozuna. I disagree with him, but at least he had enough respect for this Tournament to post his thoughts.

As for the rest of you, I'm calling you out right here and right now. I, as well, have voted in a few threads in this Tournament without giving reasons, and, if someone didn't agree with my vote and I gave no explanation for it, I would respect their right to call me out on it. So, what's up?

 

[Theo Mays]

No disrespect to Misawa, but I'm going with Yoko here. I think Misawa could win if he could keep the match long, but I think Yoko would keep it as short as possible. Misawa is a tough bastard and it would probably take two or three Bonzai drops to knock him out. Misawa hangs around, but comes up just short and Yoko heads on.

 

[NSL]

I'm going with IC and Yoko here. Misawa was a great innovator, and he'd have to think of something quick here, to pull off the upset. Yoko may not be fast, but all he has to do is knock over Misawa, and it ends with a Banzai Drop that crushes his chest.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

No disrespect to Misawa, but I'm going with Yoko here. I think Misawa could win if he could keep the match long, but I think Yoko would keep it as short as possible. Misawa is a tough bastard and it would probably take two or three Bonzai drops to knock him out. Misawa hangs around, but comes up just short and Yoko heads on.

And, how exactly would Yokozuna be able to keep this match short? The only way this could happen is if Yokozuna was able to control the match or if Misawa wanted to have a pissing contest with him. Yokozuna would never be able to lead a match as he is just too slow. And, Misawa is too smart to go toe-to-toe with Yokozuna, like Bret Hart tried to do at WM IX.

Face it, Yokozuna, only has six notable match to his name:

1) His match with Bret Hart at WM IX
2) His match with Lex Luger at Summerslam 1993
3) His match with The Undertaker at The Royal Rumble 1994
4) His match with Lex Luger at WM X
5) His match with Bret Hart at WM X

We've already established that Bret Hart erred in his ways in trying to go toe-to-toe with Yokozuna at WM IX, and it cost him the title. His matches with Luger didn't end in clean finishes, but Luger pretty much had the upper-hand in both matches, although his desire to completely dominate Yokozuna cost him both times, as he knocked Yokozuna out of the ring at Summerslam 1993 and got himself disqualified by Mr. Perfect at WM X for taking out Yokozuna and his entourage inside the ring. Finally, Yokozuna only won his casket match with The Undertaker at The Royal Rumble 1994 because he had the help of about five other wrestlers.

So, that leaves us with his match with Bret Hart at WM X, where, for the first three-quarters of the match, Bret Hart's strategy was markedly different than the one he had during his first match with Yokozuna. Instead of going to the ropes and trying to bulldog and shoulder-tackle Yokozuna, he kept his distance from him, only throwing punches at him and drop-kicking him once. It wasn't until the last quarter of the match that Hart started to go to the ropes, as he thought that Yokozuna was beaten down enough to not counterattack his moves. But, it turns out that Yokozuna wasn't, and Hart's mistake would have cost him dearly has 'Zuna not fallen off of the second rope when he tried to banzai drop him.

So, essentially, this is all to say that Yokozuna can be taken in one of two ways: he can either be taken with brute force (although this didn't bode well for either Luger, 'Taker, or Hart's first time), or he can be taken through caution and prudence (as shown by most of Hart's second match with him and the Shawn Michaels/Yokozuna match that is embedded in this thread). Obviously, the second way is the most effective way to beat Yokozuna, and Misawa epitomizes both caution and prudence.

So, if you want to come in here and say that Yokozuna would beat Misawa because of how big he was and because he beat wrestlers that straight-up weren't either as smart or persevering as Misawa, that's cool; I'll just rip up what you have to say by calling out your lack of knowledge of Misawa.

But, please, don't come in here talking about how Yokozuna would want to end this match soon. 'Zuna never once dictated his matches. He played a dumb oaf who was able to capitalize on other people's pride and faults. And, this would not happen with Misawa.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

I'm going with IC and Yoko here. Misawa was a great innovator, and he'd have to think of something quick here, to pull off the upset. Yoko may not be fast, but all he has to do is knock over Misawa, and it ends with a Banzai Drop that crushes his chest.

This is just the same BS that I discredited with the post below yours. Furthermore, IrishCanadian25 gave no compelling evidence whatsoever as to why Yokozuna should go over here. Also, I find it kind of odd that IrishCanadian25 isn't giving Misawa more credit here, seeing as how Misawa arguably gave Vader his best matches and proved to be a credible threat to him, even though he was only twenty or so pounds over half of what Vader weighed.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Oh, yeah, one more thing: I am aware that Yokozuna had two matches with Hogan: one at WM IX and one at King of the Ring 1993. I just didn't mention those in his list of significant matches as the first lasted for about 2.5 seconds and the second one was an abomination. So, I just thought I'd put that out there, in case anyone wanted to try and call me out for not knowing that Yokozuna wrestled Hulk Hogan twice and beat him in one of those matches.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

IrishCanadian25 gave no compelling evidence whatsoever as to why Yokozuna should go over here.

Judging by the voting, I don't really need to. People KNOW. Besides, I have started more Yokozuna threads on these boards than ANYBODY, and obviously, people have read them.

Also, I find it kind of odd that IrishCanadian25 isn't giving Misawa more credit here, seeing as how Misawa arguably gave Vader his best matches and proved to be a credible threat to him, even though he was only twenty or so pounds over half of what Vader weighed.

Once again, TDigs, you are arguing against me trying to counter a stance I've never taken. You are so frustrated right now that you are actually making up my argument for me so you can rail against it. You're basically arguing with yourself, which is endlessly amusing.

I am a really big Misawa fan, and I do believe the man is a legend. In this case, however, I just feel that he doesn't bring quite enough to the table to defeat Yokozuna in his prime - 505 lb monster with the greatest Belly to Belly Suplex in history and a back thrust kick that could take your head off.

Misawa, kayfabe, can sustain a lot of punishment, arguably even more than Mick Foley. Misawa's opponents rarely, if ever, go over Misawa right after their first attempts to put him away with their finishers. As evidenced by his match with Samoa Joe in this thread, Misawa also has a lot of stamina. So, I don't see how Yokozuna could beat Misawa, as he would probably have to banzai drop him at least five times, and Yokozuna would probably faint from exhaustion before he could finally put Misawa down for the three count.

This is probably the most ridiculous point you've ever made. Ever. Which is a shame, because you're one of my favorite posters. This knocks you back a step.

Bro, this isn't a video game. This isn't WWF King of the Ring on Sega CD< or Royal Rumble on Super Nintendo. Misawa, despite how well he can withstand punishment, won't kick out of a Banzai Drop because he taps the "Y" button really fast. The best part about the Banzai Drop isn't the damage it does - it's the fact that upon its completion, you have 505 lbs spread across your chest, dead weight, after you've just had the air knoked out of your lungs. Your arms are at your side, so you have ZERO leverage.

The Banzai Drop is the ONE finisher that I have never seen ANYONE kick out of. Sure, maybe the tough guys stand up after Yoko gets off of them - but in a match where the goal is a three count, I don't care how tough you are, if Yokozuna is seated atop your body, you are not kicking out.

And TDigs, please stop misleading people by showing the Yokozuna / Shawn Michaels match. At that time, Yoko was very slow and pushing 700 lbs. That would be like me trying to sway people to Andre the Giant by showing Wrestlemania 6. Yoko, I grant you, did not have a long-standing extended prime like Misawa did. But in his year-and-a-half prime at 505 - 565 lbs, he was as fast as a 400 pounder and far stronger.

It also bears mentioning that, while Bret Hart DID defeat Yokozuna at Wrestlemania 10, he didn't do it on his own accord. Yoko slipped backwards off of the 2nd rope and hit his head. It wasn't anything Bret did. Bret didn't have the presence of mind to shake the ropes. Hart got LUCKY, plain and simple. Had Yoko not slipped, then Summerslam that year would have been WWF Champion Yokozuna vs a new challenger - maybe Savage - and Hart vs Hart in a cage with no title on the line. Eventually, Yoko would have lost to Diesel.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Judging by the voting, I don't really need to. People KNOW. Besides, I have started more Yokozuna threads on these boards than ANYBODY, and obviously, people have read them.

I would actually argue that this has nothing to do with your threads. Rather, I would argue that it has more to do with the fact that people here are much more acquainted with Yokozuna's work than with Misawa's, although youtube hosts a massive amount of Misawa's matches, so I am hoping that the voters here are trying to get a feel for what Misawa's all about.

Also, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt on the thread claim that you made here, and I also wanted to see if there was something that I just wasn't seeing and that you could persuade me of. So, I searched the forums just for your threads on Yokzuna and/or super heavyweights, and the only thing that I found out was that your claim is highly misleading. Yes, you have made the most threads out of anyone here, precisely because no one else has made any threads about Yokozuna. Also, you have never made a thread specific to Yokozuna. Here are your threads in which Yokozuna is mentioned in the opening post:

• 
  A poll and thread about the best Anti-American wrestler of all time: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=43213

• A poll and thread about the greatest big men in wrestling: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=15083

• A campaign thread for super heavyweights in this tournament: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=35434

• A thread requesting a sig with Yokozuna in it: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=35079

Maybe there's something I'm missing here. Please inform me if there is something that I am missing.

Once again, TDigs, you are arguing against me trying to counter a stance I've never taken. You are so frustrated right now that you are actually making up my argument for me so you can rail against it. You're basically arguing with yourself, which is endlessly amusing.

With all due respect, this is probably the only part of this post that isn't absurd. Yes, I am frustrated, because all I keep hearing is that Misawa is a Japanese legend but Yokozuna is too much for him. This is essentially the argument you made in your initial post in this thread. No one who has posted in this thread, besides Tastycles, has truly considered what a match-up with Yokozuna and Misawa would be like. Did Yokozuna, in his prime, ever face great wrestlers? Yes, he did; he faced Hogan, Hart, and The Undertaker. But, did he ever, in his prime, face someone with Misawa's prudence, caution, strategical acumen, stamina, and perseverance? No, he didn't. Therefore, I don't see how you can facilely claim that Yokozuna would be too much for Misawa because he proved to be too much for Hart. As I already mentioned in one of my previous posts, Hart lost his first match and almost lost his second match with Yokozuna because he tried to go toe-to-toe with him. Misawa would not do this: he would be just as, if not more, cautious than Bret Hart was in the first three-quarters of his match with Yokozuna at WM X.

I am a really big Misawa fan, and I do believe the man is a legend. In this case, however, I just feel that he doesn't bring quite enough to the table to defeat Yokozuna in his prime - 505 lb monster with the greatest Belly to Belly Suplex in history and a back thrust kick that could take your head off.

All right, so you pick a wrestler based on two moves, when, in all probability, Misawa's strategy in a match with Yokozuna would preclude Yokozuna from even executing these moves on him?

This is probably the most ridiculous point you've ever made. Ever. Which is a shame, because you're one of my favorite posters. This knocks you back a step.

I truly do value your opinion, IrishCanadian25, but, with respect to what I have said in this post, I could care less whether or not I'm one of your favorite posters anymore. Essentially, your whole strategy of reasoning in this thread has been to accuse me of calling out your knowledge of wrestling (which I already told you I wasn't doing) and to allege that I have been foisting claims upon you that you never made, which is far from the truth; rather, I have, to the best of my abilities, raised and countered any objections that might come about in my supporting Misawa over Yokozuna. You, on the other hand, have steadfastly clung to the relatively trivial arguments that can be made for Yokozuna while spending the rest of the time attempting to find fault with my strategy of reasoning.

Am I passionate about Misawa's wrestling? There is no doubt that I am. But, even with the bias that could occur because of this, the one thing that is in my favor is the overwhelming amount of evidence that supports Misawa and that I can bring to this thread. On the other hand, I have pretty much already shed doubt upon any evidence that might be brought into this thread to support Yokozuna.

Bro, this isn't a video game. This isn't WWF King of the Ring on Sega CD< or Royal Rumble on Super Nintendo. Misawa, despite how well he can withstand punishment, won't kick out of a Banzai Drop because he taps the "Y" button really fast. The best part about the Banzai Drop isn't the damage it does - it's the fact that upon its completion, you have 505 lbs spread across your chest, dead weight, after you've just had the air knoked out of your lungs. Your arms are at your side, so you have ZERO leverage.

Aren't you the one who said in his last post in this thread that we had to follow kayfabe? If we don't, then, yes, no one would be able to get up from the Banzai Drop. Also, none of Goldberg's opponents would have been able to wrestle again and scientists all over the world would have shit themselves and flocked to Titan Towers to find out exactly how Vince McMahon was able to resurrect a dead man.

The Banzai Drop is the ONE finisher that I have never seen ANYONE kick out of. Sure, maybe the tough guys stand up after Yoko gets off of them - but in a match where the goal is a three count, I don't care how tough you are, if Yokozuna is seated atop your body, you are not kicking out.

No one, and I mean NO ONE, in the world of professional wrestling has as much heart as Misawa does. One of the things his matches have always been about is how he can take punishment but still eke out a win in the end through sheer willpower. Have you seen anyone get up after a muscle buster from Samoa Joe? Have you seen anyone get up after Vader belly-to-back suplexed them on their head three times in a row? I have, and, in both instances, it was the man we are arguing about who got up.

And TDigs, please stop misleading people by showing the Yokozuna / Shawn Michaels match. At that time, Yoko was very slow and pushing 700 lbs. That would be like me trying to sway people to Andre the Giant by showing Wrestlemania 6. Yoko, I grant you, did not have a long-standing extended prime like Misawa did. But in his year-and-a-half prime at 505 - 565 lbs, he was as fast as a 400 pounder and far stronger.

All right, I'll take this match out of the equation. But, it still doesn't take away from my arguments regarding how Yokzuna beat Bret Hart, Lex Luger, and The Undertaker during his prime. I will repeat here what I said two posts back: Yokozuna's character was nothing more than a dumb oaf who was able to capitalize on other wrestlers' pride and faults. There are very few instances in which Yokozuna was straight-up dominant in his prime and in which he was the decisive factor in his win (that is to say, Yokozuna didn't beat other wrestlers, the other wrestlers lost to Yokozuna because of their own stupidity and hubris).

It also bears mentioning that, while Bret Hart DID defeat Yokozuna at Wrestlemania 10, he didn't do it on his own accord. Yoko slipped backwards off of the 2nd rope and hit his head. It wasn't anything Bret did. Bret didn't have the presence of mind to shake the ropes. Hart got LUCKY, plain and simple. Had Yoko not slipped, then Summerslam that year would have been WWF Champion Yokozuna vs a new challenger - maybe Savage - and Hart vs Hart in a cage with no title on the line. Eventually, Yoko would have lost to Diesel.

Yeah, I already mentioned this two posts back. Furthermore, this has nothing to do with Bret beating Yokozuna. This has to do with the fact that I can confidently say that, after watching a lot of Misawa matches and the 10 or so matches that meant anything to Yokozuna's career (I won't mislead people with a heavier Yokozuna, at your request, but this means that you severely limit his prime to less than two years), Misawa had what it took (and still has what it takes) to beat Yokozuna. It would be one of Misawa's most difficult tests ever, but he would eke out the win to the cheer of thousands just like he always has.

 

[Theo Mays]

And, how exactly would Yokozuna be able to keep this match short? The only way this could happen is if Yokozuna was able to control the match or if Misawa wanted to have a pissing contest with him. Yokozuna would never be able to lead a match as he is just too slow. And, Misawa is too smart to go toe-to-toe with Yokozuna, like Bret Hart tried to do at WM IX.

With the help of Fuji, to throw Misawa off his game, that gives Yoko the chance to gain control and put the match away as early as he can. Anything from salt (or whatever the hell was in that bucket) in his eyes or grabbing his leg while he is by the ropes will benefit Yoko and would be able to allow him to end the match.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

With the help of Fuji, to throw Misawa off his game, that gives Yoko the chance to gain control and put the match away as early as he can. Anything from salt (or whatever the hell was in that bucket) in his eyes or grabbing his leg while he is by the ropes will benefit Yoko and would be able to allow him to end the match.

All right. Admittedly, I didn't give the best of reasons for why Mr. Fuji would not be of help to Yokozuna, but I'll go ahead and make that case here.

1) Misawa is too smart to fall for the taunts of a manager: This is something that I have already discussed in all of my posts, and it is something that I firmly believe. As I have already mentioned, Misawa's arsenal of moves used to virtually consist of nothing but suplexes and slams. With age, Misawa has cut back on such moves, and now mainly brawls and wrestles his opponents on the mat. If anything, this shows that Misawa is well-aware of his limitations. Yet, he still takes on big and young wrestlers. And, while he doesn't win as much, he still wins more often than not. Furthermore, all of his wins are just as credible as they were when he was younger. All of this suggests to me a wrestler who is extremely self-conscious, yet still exploits the strengths he still has to beat people that he should not be able to. Therefore, in facing Yokozuna, Misawa would be wary of both going toe-to-toe with him and facing the sides of the ring when he is close to the ropes, as both of these actions would make him vulnerable, which is something he always tries to avoid.

2) Mr. Fuji's record with salt is only 50/50: With Yokozuna, Mr. Fuji used salt to incapacitate Yokozuna's opponents twice, and both times were at WM IX. The first time was when he threw salt into Bret Hart's eyes, as Hart was stupid enough to not put Yokozuna in the sharpshooter in the middle of the ring, and instead put him in this submission maneuver while he was inches away from the ropes, facing the ringside. Thus, all Mr. Fuji had to do was run up six inches from Bret's face and throw salt in his eyes; Misawa wouldn't be so dumb.

The second time Fuji used the salt was against Hulk Hogan, and Hogan ended up ducking, which resulted in Fuji hitting Yokozuna with the salt. Thus, on top of Misawa's shrewdness, it seems to me that there would only be a 50/50 chance that Mr. Fuji would even hit him.

 

[Shocky]

For the life of me I have never been able to understand the love affair with Yokozuna. The guy was a joke of a champion. His title reign defenses on apy per view include him losing to Lex Luger, beating the Undertaker in a casket match with the help of an entire football teams worth of heel wrestlers, beating luger by DQ via Mr. Pefect as special referee, and then ultimately losing the title to Bret Hart.

For every person that says, oh he's a great agile big man, bullshit. The guy was able to do a thrust kick, big deal. The guy was fast, because we were never used to seeing a fat ass move quicker then a snails pace, doesn't make him quick. If you want a quick, and agile, great super heavyweight Samoan, look at Umaga, he's everything that people think Yokozuna was.

Yoko has lost matches by falling off the turnbuckles twice. Once to Bret Hart at Mania at the biggest stage of them all, and then again when his mass broke the ring at Summerslam 96, and lost to Steve Austin. Two guys that were smaller, two guys that beat him. Misawa is probably a Japanese equivalant, if not superior in the ring of guys like Hart and Austin. If those two could captalize, surely Misawa could as well. People simply don't realize how damn good Misawa is. Yokozuna is nothing more then a medicine ball with legs.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

2) Mr. Fuji's record with salt is only 50/50: With Yokozuna, Mr. Fuji used salt to incapacitate Yokozuna's opponents twice, and both times were at WM IX. The first time was when he threw salt into Bret Hart's eyes, as Hart was stupid enough to not put Yokozuna in the sharpshooter in the middle of the ring, and instead put him in this submission maneuver while he was inches away from the ropes, facing the ringside. Thus, all Mr. Fuji had to do was run up six inches from Bret's face and throw salt in his eyes; Misawa wouldn't be so dumb.

Consider this point refuted and useless.

[youtube]qCgLrt1Zsl8[/youtube]

This steel cage match between Yoko and Bret also serves as a reminder than Yokozuna can also compete in gimmick matches effectively and use his surroundings to his advantage. Yet another ounce - or 565 more pounds - of proof in favor of why Yokozuna goes over Misawa here.

Yoko has lost matches by falling off the turnbuckles twice. Once to Bret Hart at Mania at the biggest stage of them all, and then again when his mass broke the ring at Summerslam 96, and lost to Steve Austin. Two guys that were smaller, two guys that beat him. Misawa is probably a Japanese equivalant, if not superior in the ring of guys like Hart and Austin. If those two could captalize, surely Misawa could as well. People simply don't realize how damn good Misawa is. Yokozuna is nothing more then a medicine ball with legs.

What, was he gonna lose to someone BIGGER!? And the smaller guys he lost to were Hart, Austin, and Michaels - probably three of the greatest talents in history! Yoko isn't going to go undefeated, you know. And for every "smaller" guy Yoko lost to, Misawa lost to bigger guys like Jumbo Tsuruta (once in September of 1990, again in April of 1991).

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Consider this point refuted and useless.

[youtube]qCgLrt1Zsl8[/youtube]

This steel cage match between Yoko and Bret also serves as a reminder than Yokozuna can also compete in gimmick matches effectively and use his surroundings to his advantage. Yet another ounce - or 565 more pounds - of proof in favor of why Yokozuna goes over Misawa here.

All right, IrishCanadian25, lol, I'll give you this one. Please accept my apologies...I never knew that this match, which was taped in Augusta, Maine's Civic Center and put on a Coliseum Home Video would ever come to surface. I saw a VHS of WWF Rampage '91 in the Secaucus Walmart Supercenter's bargain bin a few months back. Maybe if you rush out right now, you could still get it.

Also, gimmick matches shouldn't even be considered until Rounds 4 and 5. I won't consider this point refuted, as Yokozuna seems to have done an all-right job in this match, but, it's not relevant here, so I'll consider it useless.

What, was he gonna lose to someone BIGGER!? And the smaller guys he lost to were Hart, Austin, and Michaels - probably three of the greatest talents in history! Yoko isn't going to go undefeated, you know. And for every "smaller" guy Yoko lost to, Misawa lost to bigger guys like Jumbo Tsuruta (once in September of 1990, again in April of 1991).

Don't forget to mention that Misawa first beat Tsuruta in June 1990. Furthermore, don't forget to mention that, after losing to him in July 1990, Misawa would go on to beat Stan Hansen in August 1992 and May 1995 (in both instances, Misawa won the AJPW Triple Crown Heavyweight Championship). Finally, let's not forget that, although Vader beat Misawa for the Triple Crown in October 1999, Misawa was the one that took it off of him in March 1999.

So, I would say that Misawa has fared very well against big men. Can you say the same for Yokozuna? Probably not, since, horizontally, I don't think there has been anyone as big as him. But, have there been other wrestlers that are just as strong, and faster? Yes, and three of those wrestlers are Jumbo Tsuruta, Stan Hansen, and Vader.