WCW Region, Sydney Subregion, Second Round: (8) Dusty Rhodes vs. (9) Nick Bockwinkel

[klunderbunker]

This is a second round match in the WCW Region, Sydney Subregion. It is a standard one on one match. It will be held at the Kingdome in Sydney, Australia. Assume one week has passed since the first round match.

#8. Dusty Rhodes

Vs.

#9. Nick Bockwinkel

​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[PsychoBlack]

I love both of these guys. Dusty was a huge draw back in the day selling out arena's all over the country no matter who he faced. Bockwinkel was a wizard in the ring and can match Dusty word for word on the mic.

I have to go with Bockwinkel here though. Dusty, while being wildly popular never had a defining reign as World Champ. Dusty held the NWA heavyweight championship three times for a combined 107 days. He was looked at as a transitional champion in the eyes of bookers, despite being as big of a draw as he was.

Bockwinkel was the man that Vern Gagne chose to pass the torch to in his AWA and what a wonderful job he did. Bockwinkel held the AWA world title for a little less than 5 years. The only other men in the history of wrestling to accomplish such a feat are Bruno, Thesz, Hogan, Funk, and Backlund. He would then go on to hold the title 3 more times and on two of those occasions retained it for more than a year.

Bockwinkel goes over Dusty here in what should be a hell of a match.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Both guys are legends and highly respected.

When you look at Bockwinkel's time as AWA World Heavyweight Chmpion, it's certainly more impressive than Rhodes' times as NWA World Heavyweight Champion. Bockwinkel is also the superior technician. Bockwinkel was also the more athletic of the two, even though neither man was known for a particularly athletic style. Dusty Rhodes, despite his pudgy appearance, had incredible stamina.

Bockwinkel's biggest successes lied in the AWA, of course, but he also had success in various NWA territories such as Georgia, Hawaii and the Pacific Northwest. Rhodes was a huge star pretty much wherever he went. Georgia, Florida, Texas, the Carolinas, Kansas, St. Louis, Chicago, Detroit, New York, etc.

In the end, I'm going with Rhodes. So long as Dusty didn't try to trade holds with Bockwinkel, I believe he'd eventually outfight him. Plus, Rhodes is by far the bigger star & draw of the two. Whenever you say Dusty Rhodes' name, people know who you're talking about. More often that not, a good deal of people have to stop for a bit to think who Bockwinkel is.

I do think Dusty Rhodes is a little overrated in terms of his in-ring ability, but the guy was massively over and a massive star wherever he wrestled. For this tournament, that far superior popularity will carry him through this match.

 

[PsychoBlack]

Both guys are legends and highly respected.

When you look at Bockwinkel's time as AWA World Heavyweight Chmpion, it's certainly more impressive than Rhodes' times as NWA World Heavyweight Champion. Bockwinkel is also the superior technician. Bockwinkel was also the more athletic of the two, even though neither man was known for a particularly athletic style. Dusty Rhodes, despite his pudgy appearance, had incredible stamina.

Bockwinkel's biggest successes lied in the AWA, of course, but he also had success in various NWA territories such as Georgia, Hawaii and the Pacific Northwest. Rhodes was a huge star pretty much wherever he went. Georgia, Florida, Texas, the Carolinas, Kansas, St. Louis, Chicago, Detroit, New York, etc.

In the end, I'm going with Rhodes. So long as Dusty didn't try to trade holds with Bockwinkel, I believe he'd eventually outfight him. Plus, Rhodes is by far the bigger star & draw of the two. Whenever you say Dusty Rhodes' name, people know who you're talking about. More often that not, a good deal of people have to stop for a bit to think who Bockwinkel is.

I do think Dusty Rhodes is a little overrated in terms of his in-ring ability, but the guy was massively over and a massive star wherever he wrestled. For this tournament, that far superior popularity will carry him through this match.

I think your understating Nick's popularity here. Dusty was over as all hell back in the day, but, no heel outside of Harley Race and Ric Flair got more heat than Bockwinkel back then. Dusty got over in many different territories because that was the way the NWA was setup and not to mention more often than not he was the face to Flair's heel.

Bockwinkel got over in places such as Chicago, Minneapolis, Las Vegas, Winnipeg, Denver Salt Lake City, Pheonix, Omaha, Memphis, and down in texas. At one point Bockwinkel was just as big if not a bigger draw then Rhodes was.

Dusty may be remembered better by the more casual fan because of th etime he spent in WWE and in WCW with the NWO, but thats not the Dusty that we're comparing. In this match Nick goes over Dusty no ifs ands or buts about it.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

If this was a match for the AWA Title, then Bockwinkel would most likely come out on top. It's not, it is a knockout tournament outside of the AWA and the most likely winner is the bigger star and that is Dusty Rhodes who was a national star in the US as opposed to a regional star.

 

[PsychoBlack]

If this was a match for the AWA Title, then Bockwinkel would most likely come out on top. It's not, it is a knockout tournament outside of the AWA and the most likely winner is the bigger star and that is Dusty Rhodes who was a national star in the US as opposed to a regional star.

In his prime Dusty wasn't a national star. He was a guy that was known in quite a few territories, but not a national star. If Dusty was a national star then Bockwinkel was as well. Dusty was known in Texas, Florida, Georgia, The Carolinas, Toronto, and Detroit. Bockwinkel was know in Denver, Memphis, Minnesota, Chicago, Portland, Hawaii, Winnipeg, Pheonix, Texas and Japan. Both of these guys were big time players back in the 80's. Dusty is more remembered by the common fan (no pun intended) because of his time in the WWF and WCW as a member of the nWo. Dusty was never one to win many big matches and this is what he's in here. He doesn't go over Bockwinkel

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

In his prime Dusty wasn't a national star. He was a guy that was known in quite a few territories, but not a national star. If Dusty was a national star then Bockwinkel was as well. Dusty was known in Texas, Florida, Georgia, The Carolinas, Toronto, and Detroit. Bockwinkel was know in Denver, Memphis, Minnesota, Chicago, Portland, Hawaii, Winnipeg, Pheonix, Texas and Japan. Both of these guys were big time players back in the 80's. Dusty is more remembered by the common fan (no pun intended) because of his time in the WWF and WCW as a member of the nWo. Dusty was never one to win many big matches and this is what he's in here. He doesn't go over Bockwinkel

The NWA was the biggest promotion in North America during 2 of his 3 reigns and Dusty was the perennial challenger in an organisation that booked their long term champs as heels. The AWA was the 3rd promotion behind the (W)WWF.

 

[PsychoBlack]

The NWA was the biggest promotion in North America during 2 of his 3 reigns and Dusty was the perennial challenger in an organisation that booked their long term champs as heels. The AWA was the 3rd promotion behind the (W)WWF.

That's not true Jack Brisco spent a year as champion twice while he was a face. Ric Flair's first title reign came as a face and he also held the strap for over a year. Dusty was one of many perennial challengers for the NWA title seeing as how it was defended 300 nights a year. During Bockwinkel's prime the AWA was drawing crowds at the same size as the NWA territories and the WWWF. He and Vern Gagne are the only two guys in the history of that company to say that they did that.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

It comes down to this really. Dusty has often lost big matches to big name heels, Bockwinkel has often beat guys who are big names and can be argued had just as much popularity as Dusty did back in his heyday. At the same time you could do the flip side of that as Dusty won big matches and beat big heels like Flair so you can make a good argument for either guy here.

Personally I'm going with Bockwinkel in this one and for this particular match up its a bit of a bias for me as I like Bockwinkel more than Dusty although I wouldn't vote for him if he didn't have a legit claim to beating Dusty. Bockwinkel was a phenomenal wrestler not to mention how much heat him and Heenan got, he ended Verne Gagne's 7 year reign as AWA champion which started a near 5 year reign as AWA champion as a heel, no heel ever came close to that as champion and it was at a time it could be argued the AWA was better than the NWA (although that's subjective).

Dusty was a main face and did very well, was extremely popular but then again so was Verne Gagne. Bockwinkel's longevity in the main event scene and a main event heel is much better than Dusty as often Dusty was on the losing end of his big matches being better in the chase than as the actual guy who is champ. You can make an argument for Dusty but I feel you can make an even better argument for Bockwinkel. Couple that with he's my favorite of the 2 and he gets my vote.

 

[Con T.]

Nick Bockwinkel also managed to stay where he was in the AWA because of how close he was to Verne... Often, at the expense of business.

Listen, I'll spare everyone the Hogan story; we all know it was Verne's dicking around with Hogan and the AWA title that would play some part in Hogan's departure from the AWA to the WWF. Who was the champion at the time?

That's right, Nick Bockwinkel. Nick managed to lose his title quite a bit of times, before having it re-awarded to him later in the week. I can count at least five times this happens.

Nick Bockwinkel beat Verne Gagne to win his belt. Verne Gagne also lost to Otto Wanz. Otto Wanz.

The truth is, without Dusty Rhodes, there is no Hulk Hogan, there is no Rock, and there is no John Cena. Dusty Rhodes forever changed what it meant to be a babyface in professional wrestling. He's beaten Harley Race in his prime, he's beaten Ric Flair in his prime, beaten Brisco, beaten the big names that the NWA has to offer.

And finally, and most importantly; when the two were working in the same era, from 1975-1980, Dusty kicked Bockwinkel's ass as a draw. Rhodes drew more crowds of 10,000+, and all in all was the bigger name in wrestling. It isn't just because of his WWF and WCW runs; those actually hurt his legacy, more than anything. Dusty is the man that set into motion the mold for a babyface in professional wrestling, and is one of the first to show just how much money can be drawn by promos.

Dusty takes this one

 

[Tastycles]

There's a few turning points in the history of professional wrestling. Whenever it first became fake. When Hogan went white hot. When Thesz took it truly nationally. One such moment that is rarely spoken of is when Dusty Rhodes first won the world title.

Before him, every single world champion looked like an athlete - and most of them were capable legitimately of holding their own. Rhodes wasn't, and when he took the title, wrestling ceased to be about faked athletic competition and started being about suspension of disbelief. Without that, Hulking up wouldn't have been a thing, and can explain why nobody cared about Hulk Hogan in 1978.

Bockwinkel is interesting as a character, and was certainly a draw and asset for AWA, but in all honesty I don't think he will have the lasting impact on wrestling that Dusty Rhodes did.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Nick Bockwinkel also managed to stay where he was in the AWA because of how close he was to Verne... Often, at the expense of business.

And Dusty often did the EXACT same thing.

Listen, I'll spare everyone the Hogan story; we all know it was Verne's dicking around with Hogan and the AWA title that would play some part in Hogan's departure from the AWA to the WWF. Who was the champion at the time?

Yeah because Bockwinkel certainly wasn't AWA champ for 5 years straight before Hogan was even a memory in wrestling.

That's right, Nick Bockwinkel. Nick managed to lose his title quite a bit of times, before having it re-awarded to him later in the week. I can count at least five times this happens.

Yeah that's called being a heel with connections, a lot of top heels did that. The nWo (mainly Hall and Nash) did that numerous times. It helps build heat, that's why promoters do it.

Nick Bockwinkel beat Verne Gagne to win his belt. Verne Gagne also lost to Otto Wanz. Otto Wanz.

You mean that guy who paid Verne a shit ton of money so he could be champ for a month? Otto meant NOTHING to the AWA, he literally bought the AWA title.

The truth is, without Dusty Rhodes, there is no Hulk Hogan, there is no Rock, and there is no John Cena. Dusty Rhodes forever changed what it meant to be a babyface in professional wrestling. He's beaten Harley Race in his prime, he's beaten Ric Flair in his prime, beaten Brisco, beaten the big names that the NWA has to offer.

Rhodes was often a top guy sure but he lost to Harley and Ric a HELL of a lot more times than he beat those 2. Dusty was much better chasing the title than he ever was as champion, that's why he often lost. That's not a bad thing, business is business but Rhodes in the chase is where the money is, not Rhodes on top. Ironically Bockwinkel was very similar to Ric when he was AWA champion. I'm not putting him on the same level as Flair but he was booked very similarly.

And finally, and most importantly; when the two were working in the same era, from 1975-1980, Dusty kicked Bockwinkel's ass as a draw. Rhodes drew more crowds of 10,000+, and all in all was the bigger name in wrestling. It isn't just because of his WWF and WCW runs; those actually hurt his legacy, more than anything. Dusty is the man that set into motion the mold for a babyface in professional wrestling, and is one of the first to show just how much money can be drawn by promos.

Dusty takes this one

Bockwinkel and Verne Gagne often drew houses in the 20,000-30, 000 range, often did stadium shows, often did big name shows that drew a fortune so it's not like they couldn't shake a stick to what Dusty could draw because they often did. Most people remember Dusty Rhodes but that's an unfair comparison, by the time cable TV came into play both guys really weren't around anymore, for that reason alone he's gonna get more notoriety than Verne or Bockwinkel. AWA didn't get a national TV deal until after these guys were done and it was on ESPN. Everyone got TBS when Dusty was around.

Dusty drew tons of money and certainly was a trailblazing babyface, I'll never take that away from him and I will never knock his accomplishments. I will say though Nick had a longer stay on top that drew a lot of money, Dusty was often the guy who was chasing the champ and coming up short to the heel champ as that's how he did his best business. Bockwinkel is exactly the type of guy who Dusty would go after, give a good fight but whether its Dusty getting caught or interference by Heenan Bockwinkel would likely sneak out with a win. That's what Bockwinkel did and Dusty is exactly the type of opponent Bockwinkel would do that to.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Bockwinkel is interesting as a character, and was certainly a draw and asset for AWA, but in all honesty I don't think he will have the lasting impact on wrestling that Dusty Rhodes did.

NOT SO FAST MY FRIEND!!

Nick fuckin Bockwinkel is pretty much the catalyst for every "cool" or "intellectual" heels we have ever seen come down the road. He did things that many had never done (or at least not in such a strong package, in something so widely distributed) and things that heels still pattern themselves by in this day and age.

That said, yea, Dusty Rhodes.

 

[PsychoBlack]

Nick Bockwinkel also managed to stay where he was in the AWA because of how close he was to Verne... Often, at the expense of business.

Name me a top start that hasn't done this. I suppose you won't be voting for Hogan either?

Listen, I'll spare everyone the Hogan story; we all know it was Verne's dicking around with Hogan and the AWA title that would play some part in Hogan's departure from the AWA to the WWF. Who was the champion at the time?

Bockwinkel was, he was a big part of the reason Hogan got as over as he did because he had the luxury of working with one of the best heels in the business.

That's right, Nick Bockwinkel. Nick managed to lose his title quite a bit of times, before having it re-awarded to him later in the week. I can count at least five times this happens.

That was part of the storyline. Over the course of 5 years your title may get held up a couple times.

Nick Bockwinkel beat Verne Gagne to win his belt. Verne Gagne also lost to Otto Wanz. Otto Wanz.

Your argument is essentially "a beat b b lost to c so a is on par with c" Otto Wanz payed Vern like 25k to hold the AWA title in a time when the company was going under and Vern was flat broke. This also happened almost 15 years after Vern's prime.

The truth is, without Dusty Rhodes, there is no Hulk Hogan, there is no Rock, and there is no John Cena. Dusty Rhodes forever changed what it meant to be a babyface in professional wrestling. He's beaten Harley Race in his prime, he's beaten Ric Flair in his prime, beaten Brisco, beaten the big names that the NWA has to offer.

Actually, Dusty got his style from Thunderbolt Patterson and all of the guys that you mentioned might as well be children of Billy Graham, except for maybe The Rock who's been around the business his whole life. And Bockwinkel has quite an impressive list of opponents he's defeated as well.

And finally, and most importantly; when the two were working in the same era, from 1975-1980, Dusty kicked Bockwinkel's ass as a draw. Rhodes drew more crowds of 10,000+, and all in all was the bigger name in wrestling. It isn't just because of his WWF and WCW runs; those actually hurt his legacy, more than anything. Dusty is the man that set into motion the mold for a babyface in professional wrestling, and is one of the first to show just how much money can be drawn by promos.

Dusty takes this one

You keep going back to this list and it keeps proving you wrong. The list your speaking of shows that Bockwinkel was on par with Dusty as a draw up until the AWA began to sink. The AWA was selling out shows at baseball stadiums all around the mid west. Don't let their dying day fool you they were without a doubt neck and neck with the NWA and (W)WWF.

Vote Bockwinkel

 

[PsychoBlack]

Voter, I'm begging you to look what you're really voting at here. Nick Bockwinkel was a man who did things that no other heel had ever done. His impact on the wrestling business is something that you can still see until this very day. I've talked in other threads about guys just having "it" and Bockwinkel has more of "it" than Dusty Rhodes.

Take a look at his accomplishments inside of the ring and as a draw and you'll notice that he trumps Dusty Rhodes. Yes Dusty has a huge impact on the business that few can touch, however Bockwinkel is one of those few. He was the first cool heel that was successful and paved the way for guys like Ric Flair and the Horseman, HHH and evolution, Chris Jericho, Ted Dibiase, and The Rock. People wanted to see this man lose so bad that they would fill up entire baseball stadiums and arenas to see him lose and when he would come out on top fans would riot!

Bockwinkel was an essential part of creating Hulkamania as well. Although Vince perfected it Bockwinkel was the one who initially got it over to fans in the AWA. He and Heenan were the perfect duo for Hogan to try and unseat, as you saw in the WWF for many years Hogan's main rival was none other than Bobby Heenan, not until Andre The Giant arrived in the Northeast was their ever an opponent who was more fit to be taken down by Hulkamania.

Nick was such an extraordinary heel I just cant say it enough. He is exactly the type of guy that Dusty Rhodes would lose to. A long tenured heel champion who was not afraid to let you know that he could destroy you without raising his voice one single time. Look at Rhodes top adversaries over the years. Flair, Blanchard, Funk, and Race. Of these 5 guys i'd say the only two that didn't take anything from Bockwinkel were Race and Funk, they however had a lot of the same traits he did as just a filthy heel who believed he was just that much better than you and more often than not Dusty came out on the losing end against these two. Tully Blanchard was the second coming of Nick Bockwinkel in the way that he dressed, the calm manner in which he spoke in and a lot of his exploits inside of the ring, Dusty also lost to Tully quite a bit over the years. Now finally we get to Ric Flair who in my subjective opinion is the greatest wrestler of all time. Flair was essentially the love child of Nick Bockwinkel and Ray "the crippler" Stevens. Ric had this aura about him where you could tell he thought he was better than you, it was his designer suits and calm initial demeanor before he was caused to snap which he took from Bockwinkel, whilst his more wild side that you often saw when he was in the midst of a blood feud and his in ring work were things he took from Stevens. Flair almost always came out on top of Rhodes as well.

Dusty has never been one to win extremely big matches against stiffer competition outside of the southeast. His only chance of defeating Bockwinkel would be in the state of Florida other than that The common man has no chance.

Vote Bockwinkel

 

[deem]

Absolutely classic heel vs face here. I've just claimed that Graham is the most innovative heel of all time and I stand by that. For me, Dusty is that for faces. Absolutely loveable, all round solid and as Tasty said, hugely influential in transitioning into the modern era of wrestling too. That said, if Graham is #1 for innovative heels, Bockwinkel is nipping at his heels.

He wasn't cool like Graham. He was just absolutely hateable and drew heat on a massive scale. It doesn't matter that this is in Sydney - the crowd would be absolutely nuts for a battle between one of the best babyfaces of all time and one of the greatest heels.

If you are voting in kayfabe, Bockwinkel should win this. Yeah maybe he politicked his way to some of his success - that's irrelevant. The fact is he dominated AWA SO hard and so well, constantly beating all the faces you wanted to beat him the most. That, while Dusty was frequently losing and getting over by being the valiant underdog who was able to hang with guys it seemed he had no chance with.

I'm not writing Dusty off here, the guy is great and got his big win over Flair for the title eventually. While he's lost a lot to similar heels to Bockwinkel, he also has notable wins over them all too. Just not as much as he loses. Tasty mentioned in the Jericho/Kobashi thread that Jericho often wins the early matches before losing the feuds - that's exactly how this would be. Bockwinkel would go over the first few times before Rhodes gets his defining upset win for the feel good. As far as I'm aware this is their first match - Bockwinkel wins. I'll take Bockwinkel's 2990 days with the AWA title over Rhodes's 107 days with the NWA title any day of the week.

Vote Bockwinkel. I really think a Rhodes win is a travesty here.

 

[HBsam31]

Bockwinkel definitely was the prototype for the cool heel, and Rhodes was a different type of champion than we had seen before him. This may be the hardest pick so far. Rhodes was champ for a shorter time in a bigger promotion. After reading all of the arguments I had to go with Rhodes.

 

[The Brain]

I want to take Bockwinkel. I really do. One of these years I'm going to try to get him pretty far in this tournament. If I'm being honest though I think I need to take Rhodes. They've wrestled each other before and both have beaten the other but Rhodes got the more convincing win. It takes a special superstar with a lot of charisma to beat Bockwinkel and I think Rhodes is one of those guys.