WCW Region, Third Round, Embarrassment Match: (5) Harley Race vs. (13) Batista

[klunderbunker]

This is a third round match in the WCW Region. It is an Embarrassment match, held at Phillips Arena in Atlanta, Georgia.

Rules: Both wrestlers will have a designated finishing move, which is the only move their opponent can use for a pin. The match must end by pin and simply doing the move does not end the match.

#5. Harley Race

Designated Finisher – Piledriver

Vs.

#13. Batista

Designated Finisher – Batista Bomb

​

Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Bernkastel]

Can Harley Race powerbomb Batista? If he can bodyslam Andre then I'd bet the house on it. Harley was a strong motherfucker. Maybe not as strong as Batista, but enough to get the job done. Batista should be going out this round. He was pretty good, but Race is one of the all time greats. It doesn't make any sense to vote race over Goldberg and then not do the same against 'Tista. Race was a better wrestler and should move forward.

Vote Race.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

People voted Race over Goldberg? Where was I?!

That is horrendous, as good as Race is Goldberg was unbelievable in his run. Got watching that sea of people explode when he hit the spear.

Anyway I dont see Race giving Dave the Batista Bomb but Batista Piledriving Race is more likely. This isn't like a body slam, the sitout powerbomb is a hard move to execute (see WM 24 Tista Umaga)

Give to the Animal.

 

[Bernkastel]

People voted Race over Goldberg? Where was I?!

That is horrendous, as good as Race is Goldberg was unbelievable in his run. Got watching that sea of people explode when he hit the spear.

Anyway I dont see Race giving Dave the Batista Bomb but Batista Piledriving Race is more likely. This isn't like a body slam, the sitout powerbomb is a hard move to execute (see WM 24 Tista Umaga)

Give to the Animal.

It's really not. It requires strength, but it has the same amount of assistance as any other move. Umaga was just awkward to lift, but then again so was Booker T if you're Batista. Race was a strong fucker. He could easily get the Bomb on Batista even if he has to do it from the turnbuckle.

Harley Race was a better wrestler in every way compared to Batista. He wins. The powerbomb isn't a game changer.

 

[Tastycles]

Body slamming is not the same as a Batista bomb where you have to lift the wrestler up off your shoulders and then bomb them. There is no evidence whatsoever that Race is capable of lifting a person of the size of Batista over his head. To compare - the clean and jerk world record is 263kg, while the world deadlift record is about 535kg - almost double. Lifting someone, and lifting someone above your head are two very different things. I see no reason why Batista couldn't piledrive Race, and I think this is one where the stipulation really matters.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

It's really not. It requires strength, but it has the same amount of assistance as any other move. Umaga was just awkward to lift, but then again so was Booker T if you're Batista. Race was a strong fucker. He could easily get the Bomb on Batista even if he has to do it from the turnbuckle.

Harley Race was a better wrestler in every way compared to Batista. He wins. The powerbomb isn't a game changer.

Except that it is a pivotal rule in this match. Race was a strong fucker for sure, but Batista Bombing a near 300 pound man is a mammoth task. And Batista was a decent big man worker, he was better than a lot in his spot before him.

 

[Bernkastel]

Except that it is a pivotal rule in this match. Race was a strong fucker for sure, but Batista Bombing a near 300 pound man is a mammoth task. And Batista was a decent big man worker, he was better than a lot in his spot before him.

Which is true, Batista was better than many before him, but not Harley Race. This is nitpicking at this point. I could see your argument if Race was a buck 80 crusierweight, but he's not. He was like 260 pounds during his heyday. Not that much shy of Batista. Especially now. And he's shown his strength multiple times through his career. Even if he has to perform the powerbomb from the turnbuckle, he'll still do it.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Except that it is a pivotal rule in this match. Race was a strong fucker for sure, but Batista Bombing a near 300 pound man is a mammoth task. And Batista was a decent big man worker, he was better than a lot in his spot before him.

C'mon. If you don't think that Harley Race could do a sit out powerbomb... please do some research on the guy before commenting again.

Race absolutely had the strength to do the move. Bernkastel is usually right on about a lot of what he says about the older guys... but one thing he got wrong here is when he said Race maybe wasn't as strong as Batista. I'd wager that Race was stronger.

You know the old announcer trick where they talk about how someone has great tendon strength to put over a guy doing a certain hold? This was true with Race, but it wasn't a trick. People compared his grip to a vice. The guy was considered the legit toughest of his era, and his strength was a big reason why.

Picture proof:

That's Harley slamming Andre, and look at the ease he does it with. Rumor has it he also suplexed him, but I couldn't find a picture of that.

Just because he didn't have the bodybuilder physique doesn't mean a damn thing.

Andre may not have been as big as most on this board remember him, but he's still a legit 6'10 and 400 lbs + there. Bigger than Batista ever was. If he can do that, he can do the powerbomb.

And if he can do the powerbomb, then there's no reason whatsoever to put a guy like Batista over a guy like Harley Race. It's the choice between a guy who was important for a few years, over a guy who was important for decades.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I love Harley Race, much more than big Dave... but I can't ignore history. Triple H was basically Harley Race 2.0 with ring style and dominance very similar and (unfortunately) Batista had his number - no matter what tactics the Game tried.

With a heavy heart, I'll be voting for Drax.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Which is true, Batista was better than many before him, but not Harley Race. This is nitpicking at this point. I could see your argument if Race was a buck 80 crusierweight, but he's not. He was like 260 pounds during his heyday. Not that much shy of Batista. Especially now. And he's shown his strength multiple times through his career. Even if he has to perform the powerbomb from the turnbuckle, he'll still do it.

The powerbomb from the turnbuckle is the only way i see him doing it really.

C'mon. If you don't think that Harley Race could do a sit out powerbomb... please do some research on the guy before commenting again.

Race absolutely had the strength to do the move. Bernkastel is usually right on about a lot of what he says about the older guys... but one thing he got wrong here is when he said Race maybe wasn't as strong as Batista. I'd wager that Race was stronger.

You know the old announcer trick where they talk about how someone has great tendon strength to put over a guy doing a certain hold? This was true with Race, but it wasn't a trick. People compared his grip to a vice. The guy was considered the legit toughest of his era, and his strength was a big reason why.

Picture proof:

That's Harley slamming Andre, and look at the ease he does it with. Rumor has it he also suplexed him, but I couldn't find a picture of that.

Just because he didn't have the bodybuilder physique doesn't mean a damn thing.

Andre may not have been as big as most on this board remember him, but he's still a legit 6'10 and 400 lbs + there. Bigger than Batista ever was. If he can do that, he can do the powerbomb.

And if he can do the powerbomb, then there's no reason whatsoever to put a guy like Batista over a guy like Harley Race. It's the choice between a guy who was important for a few years, over a guy who was important for decades.

Again did you read my previous post. Must I explain Bio mechanics to tell you that executing a body slam or a hard scoop slam is not the same as executing a sitdown powerbomb. Please read my post before you quote me, I told you i know of Andre being slammed.

Here's a video so you stop badgering me about it:

[YOUTUBE]WY41wT2DjSI[/YOUTUBE]

And dont talk condescendingly because you think you know more old school because at the liberty of google and our anonymity you could pretend to be the Queen of England for all its worth.

Harley Race was a good territorial draw, Kansas and Mid Atlantic were good to him, was nice of him to drop the title for Flair as well before blackballing Crockett and pulling a Bruiser Brody; but Batista was the no#2 from 2005-09 and helped SD enormously. He could have easily been lost in the shuffle but he had mileage and was right behind Cena even pinning him clean when pinning Cena clean meant something. He worked well for a muscle man and did good promos as well. There is a reason why he did well for as long as he did.

Batista is the choice

 

[MrMojoRisin]

The powerbomb from the turnbuckle is the only way i see him doing it really.



Again did you read my previous post. Must I explain Bio mechanics to tell you that executing a body slam or a hard scoop slam is not the same as executing a sitdown powerbomb. Please read my post before you quote me, I told you i know of Andre being slammed.

Here's a video so you stop badgering me about it:

[YOUTUBE]WY41wT2DjSI[/YOUTUBE]

And dont talk condescendingly because you think you know more old school because at the liberty of google and our anonymity you could pretend to be the Queen of England for all its worth.

Harley Race was a good territorial draw, Kansas and Mid Atlantic were good to him, was nice of him to drop the title for Flair as well before blackballing Crockett and pulling a Bruiser Brody; but Batista was the no#2 from 2005-09 and helped SD enormously. He could have easily been lost in the shuffle but he had mileage and was right behind Cena even pinning him clean when pinning Cena clean meant something. He worked well for a muscle man and did good promos as well. There is a reason why he did well for as long as he did.

Batista is the choice

If I speak condescendingly... it's because honestly some of the ignorance that gets displayed in this tournament begs for someone to do it.

I don't think I'm more 'old school' because of Google. I know I am because I actually need to use Google less than most. Because I read some of what's posted here and realize that I do have a greater understanding and knowledge.

Sorry, but it's true.

You say you know Race slammed Andre? I get that. But you still seem to be hung up on the idea that he couldn't pick up a far smaller Batista for a powerbomb? Please go back and look at the picture I posted of Race slamming Andre if you're doubting his strength... and I get if anyone doesn't believe it when you look at his physique. Of course Andre allowed that, and even helped with Race getting him up. That's how a slam works with pretty much anyone. But considering the legit size of Andre (far bigger than Batista ever was), just look at how high up he has Andre, and how effortlessly he has him there. Then go look at some of the slams in your video. Not many people slammed Andre with the ease that Harley did.

One thing about the 'mechanics' of the power bomb though? It takes co-operation to do the move. It takes the physical power to perform the move first (Harley had it, there's no disputing that), and it takes the co-operation of the recipient to pull the move off... just like the slam. Harley could absolutely do the move. Saying he couldn't is just ignoring the proof otherwise. You're blurring kayfabe and reality here to make your point. In kayfabe, if Harley can slam a giant with ease, he can do other power moves to smaller men. In reality, as long as he's physically capable of doing a move, then the person he's working with will allow the move... and especially in Harley's case, if his partner isn't working with him, Harley could make him. Like I said, he was the toughest of his era. Even the likes of Brody or Hansen wouldn't cross Harley in the ring, and they would do whatever they wanted with anyone.

Your last paragraph just makes the case why Harley should win. Batista was important for a few years (2005-09 like you said). Harley was for DECADES! In the 70's, he was one of the biggest stars in the business. For longer than 4 years. He still was for the first half of the 80's too. Batista's peak was probably on level with Harley's peak... but Harley's lasted about 3 times as long.

Harley was more important. He could do the move. He should win. Absolutely no question about it.

And to another point made. Yes Triple H was a Harley clone... but he wasn't Harley. Race did it better than Triple H did, and where Batista was able to handle Triple H, he wasn't always a guaranteed win against him... and he'd have a harder time with the original.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Batista was over in a global juggernaut and for him to stay relevant still while being 2nd banana to Cena make him better. Harley at his best was a Kansas King and Hogan would outsell him in his prime IN Kansas.

People like you who go 'My god you newbies know nothing old school was cool' are the reason why people detest the old school fans. Get with the times, Batista is a bigger deal than Harley Race in his prime.

 

[Bernkastel]

Batista was over in a global juggernaut and for him to stay relevant still while being 2nd banana to Cena make him better. Harley at his best was a Kansas King and Hogan would outsell him in his prime IN Kansas.

People like you who go 'My god you newbies know nothing old school was cool' are the reason why people detest the old school fans. Get with the times, Batista is a bigger deal than Harley Race in his prime.

Except the fact that it was cool. More fans and non fans could readily identify old school wrestlers than fans and non fans could today's wrestlers, because a greater percent of the population followed the industry. Why do you think I go out of my way to push guys from 80 years ago? Because everyone in the damn country and all over the world knew who they fucking were.

It took WWE [the name] nearly 100 years to reach that same pinnacle of universal recognizably that those stars had achieved almost a century ago. You think Batista, just because he was along for the ride in a company whose name value far eclipsed his, was somehow more recognizable than a guy who ruled the most followed wrestling promotion ever, the NWA? You're insane.

Race wins. It's not close.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Nope i have met old school fans, like yourself who dont choke the reader on how old school wrestling was cool. If you and I were to sit down and talk you would know, I and many like myself have followed wrestling from decades ago through indirect mediums and have a great fondness for the matches and wrestlers of that era.

Harley Race hasn't done enough to warrant that. There are a few old school wrestlers who could take this but not Harley. Harley was a territorial star, Batista was a 40 year old bouncer who helped WWE along with Cena after the burnout of the AE with big stars leaving and Lesnar failing as a draw. Batista is bigger.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Batista was over in a global juggernaut and for him to stay relevant still while being 2nd banana to Cena make him better. Harley at his best was a Kansas King and Hogan would outsell him in his prime IN Kansas.

People like you who go 'My god you newbies know nothing old school was cool' are the reason why people detest the old school fans. Get with the times, Batista is a bigger deal than Harley Race in his prime.

See, people like me have to be people like me because people like you say shit like "at his best, Harley was a Kansas king".

It just shows you're trying to argue something that you don't understand.

"At his best", Harley was a nationwide draw who was also a major attraction on overseas tours... without a nationwide company making him one by default. Not just a guy who was good in one area. If he was just a regional draw... there is absolutely no way that the NWA board would have ever OK'd a second title reign... let alone as many as they did. No way whatsoever. You have to understand how much the territories relied on the revenue that the champ would bring in when he came to their area to get that. Harley was one of the most respected guys in the business... but respect alone doesn't get him all of the accolades he received unless he was making money for all those guys too.

Batista was a bigger deal than Harley in his prime? Absolutely not. I've already given you at best that Batista could be viewed as an equal at his peak as Harley was at his peak. The big difference you're ignoring though? Harley's peak lasted 3 times as long. The decade of the 70's up until the end of 1983. Compared to the 4 years of Batista? It's not even close.

Harley wins this. No question whatsoever.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

See, people like me have to be people like me because people like you say shit like "at his best, Harley was a Kansas king".

It just shows you're trying to argue something that you don't understand.

"At his best", Harley was a nationwide draw who was also a major attraction on overseas tours... without a nationwide company making him one by default. Not just a guy who was good in one area. If he was just a regional draw... there is absolutely no way that the NWA board would have ever OK'd a second title reign... let alone as many as they did. No way whatsoever. You have to understand how much the territories relied on the revenue that the champ would bring in when he came to their area to get that. Harley was one of the most respected guys in the business... but respect alone doesn't get him all of the accolades he received unless he was making money for all those guys too.

Batista was a bigger deal than Harley in his prime? Absolutely not. I've already given you at best that Batista could be viewed as an equal at his peak as Harley was at his peak. The big difference you're ignoring though? Harley's peak lasted 3 times as long. The decade of the 70's up until the end of 1983. Compared to the 4 years of Batista? It's not even close.

Harley wins this. No question whatsoever.

Have you lost your mind calling Harley a nationwide draw? He drew well in Japan and Puerto Rico as NWA chmapion but do you realize there was NO nationwide star at that point. The closest anyone came to being a nationwide draw were Dusty and Andre. The NWA could rely on Harley, and let me remind you how it worked back then in case you think I dont know. The territories would have their own big faces and the NWA champ would come in and shine up their territorial star and leave. The NWA champ was the highlight, and his name along with him wrestling the top baddie or baby was what brought butt to the seats.

You see how JR waxes lyrical and compares Brock's reign to the old NWA champ; its because the travelling champ drew a good house based on the fact that he WAS an NWA champ. Some drew better yes. And also because their homegrown heel or face shall wrestle the travelling champ. Harley is a legend, do not mistake any of this as me not realizing how good he was. Im not the biggest fan of his matches but still, he had a great look, solid promo and a good worker. But he was a territorial draw at his best on his own. The NWA champ schtick you can fool others with but not me. Harley wasn't sent everywhere in every territory mind you, NWA champs weren't. And after the strap was taken away they all went back to their home territory and Kansas was Harley

The NWA champ itself was the attraction and his matchup with the resident big name is what drew.

 

[Lowdown]

There's arguments for both wrestlers that are interesting, to say the least. But to me, I think Harley wins this. He was far from a slouch in the ring, and physique doesn't mean a damn thing. Not to say Batista wasn't good, but he was kind of a one truck pony. He was over due to being involved with Trips and Evolution; you take that away he'd probably would've spent his career at the mid-card level. To me, Batista was an older version of Brock, minus the technical skill. This is where Race has the advantage. Bed be able to pull off the powerbomb and get the job done. Race wins.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I said it last round and I'll say it again in this round, Harley Race is one tough sum bitch. In his hey day there was nobody tougher. When people stepped into the ring with Race, they knew they had their work cut out for them. Race was a great champion and has a legacy that most wrestlers would kill for.

The only thing that Batista really has going for him in this match is that he was seemingly able to beat Harley's clone in Triple H whenever he damn well pleased. I mean, Trips is pretty much the modern day Harley Race and even Harley Race has said that. Having said that, though, Batista has also lost matches to the likes of Edge, Rey Mysterio, and Daniel Bryan. Not saying that those guys aren't huge names in their own right, however, they're people I can see Harley Race being able to beat.

Based on that and the fact that Race was able to best Goldberg last round, I've got to give this one to Race.

Vote Race.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Have you lost your mind calling Harley a nationwide draw? He drew well in Japan and Puerto Rico as NWA chmapion but do you realize there was NO nationwide star at that point. The closest anyone came to being a nationwide draw were Dusty and Andre.

This is interesting considering what a disconnect there's been between the territory days and the national days, and how so many territory stars in this tournament get marginalized and written off because they weren't 'national stars'.

So I'm out of my mind because there were no 'nationwide' stars... and if anyone came close it was Andre or Dusty. No one outside of Kansas knew the name Harley Race... would care to see Harley Race wrestle... and only saw that this guy named Harley Race was champion when he did venture outside of Kansas?

That is pretty much what you've been saying to marginalize one of the most respected men in wrestling history, correct? (I know you try saying later that you respect Harley and his legend... but everything you've said in this thread has screamed the exact opposite. If you truly respected his legend, you wouldn't be marginalizing the guy so greatly while arguing so damn hard against him).

The NWA could rely on Harley, and let me remind you how it worked back then in case you think I dont know. The territories would have their own big faces and the NWA champ would come in and shine up their territorial star and leave. The NWA champ was the highlight, and his name along with him wrestling the top baddie or baby was what brought butt to the seats.

What I like even better here... is I swear you're paraphrasing me from another post in this (or last years) tournament.

Yes, that's more or less how it worked. You built up your big star for when the champ came in. You put your star in a program with the champ. The champ would make your guy look strong, and help make your business before traveling to the next promoters town to do it all over again.

But... the champ had to be able to do that. People had to care about the champ to make any of that work. He had to mean something.

The territory days were a different animal. For the most part, fans had little way of knowing anything that happened outside of their home area. Cable was new and you might get one or two different wrestling programs, but that was it. The big way that you had to keep up with guys outside of your area was the magazines. Fans would buy all of them, read them cover to cover, and learn all about all the guys they never got to see. The ones that were featured the most, or built up to be the biggest deals... were of course the most popular if they came to your town.

The NWA champ (being the biggest championship in the World) was always built up to be a huge deal. You know who was a big attraction in the magazines? Harley Race. You know who had the opportunity to travel that most just didn't have? Harley Race.

Wrestling fans absolutely knew who Harley Race was. They knew him as one of the biggest deals in the business. They knew that if their guy could beat him, it would be amazing. They wanted to see that.

You see how JR waxes lyrical and compares Brock's reign to the old NWA champ; its because the travelling champ drew a good house based on the fact that he WAS an NWA champ. Some drew better yes. And also because their homegrown heel or face shall wrestle the travelling champ. Harley is a legend, do not mistake any of this as me not realizing how good he was. Im not the biggest fan of his matches but still, he had a great look, solid promo and a good worker. But he was a territorial draw at his best on his own. The NWA champ schtick you can fool others with but not me. Harley wasn't sent everywhere in every territory mind you, NWA champs weren't. And after the strap was taken away they all went back to their home territory and Kansas was Harley.

The NWA champ itself was the attraction and his matchup with the resident big name is what drew.

Actually I don't pay much attention to JR these days, but OK. He's saying that Lesner isn't a draw and only the WWE title itself is? Or am I just reading that wrong? Not sure the point you're trying to make?

I do see you trying to make the point that the belt and opponents made the champ, who had very little to do with anything? Is that seriously what you're trying to say? You think a group of guys (NWA governors) would sit around, campaign, politik, vote on the guy they felt was the best representation of their brand to be champion, and the guy that would make each of them the most money... and not believe that the person with the belt made any type of difference?

No. If they kept a title on someone long term... it was because things were working with that champion. He was drawing. He was making them money. If he wasn't... they'd put the belt on someone else. If they kept going back to someone... then that guy was making them rich.

THAT was the true nature of the NWA territories.

And the champ wasn't sent to all the territories? Somewhat true. Some promoters didn't feel they needed the champ that much. Don Owens in Portland rarely brought the champ in. Vince McMahon in New York (Yes, the WWWF was an NWA territory), would bring the champ in, but he'd promote his own title above the NWA one, and usually not put the NWA champ in the main event. Steve Rickard in New Zealand... got the champ as much as you can expect for New Zealand.

But those were all exceptions, and not the rule. Each territory in the NWA had a guy on the board. They all had to pay fees to be in the NWA. They were doing that for many reasons... a major one though being that they could get the champ. If they wanted him... they were getting him.

I know you're trying to make an argument against me... because you've failed with your "Race couldn't power bomb" arguments, and your "Batista was a bigger deal than Race... get with the times" arguments. But ironically... you did more to make my argument than anything.

The champ was a draw on a National level. The guy entrusted with the title hence became a national draw. Harley Race was the guy entrusted with the title more than anyone for the longest time. Thus Harley Race was not the small time, territorial draw you've tried painting him as. The NWA was the largest organization in the world. They entrusted their business to Harley Race, and Harley Race delivered. That makes him a bigger deal than a guy who was just a part of a corporate machine that didn't even skip a beat when he left it.

Harley Race was the more important figure. Harley Race was the better wrestler. Harley Race should win this match.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

This is interesting considering what a disconnect there's been between the territory days and the national days, and how so many territory stars in this tournament get marginalized and written off because they weren't 'national stars'.

So I'm out of my mind because there were no 'nationwide' stars... and if anyone came close it was Andre or Dusty. No one outside of Kansas knew the name Harley Race... would care to see Harley Race wrestle... and only saw that this guy named Harley Race was champion when he did venture outside of Kansas?

That is pretty much what you've been saying to marginalize one of the most respected men in wrestling history, correct? (I know you try saying later that you respect Harley and his legend... but everything you've said in this thread has screamed the exact opposite. If you truly respected his legend, you wouldn't be marginalizing the guy so greatly while arguing so damn hard against him).

Why? Because I'm debating in an online fantasy wrestling tourney? I respect the hell out of Harley and what I have heard of him and read of him. I wasn't alive to see him on TV or live like some of us here but every opportunity I have been presented to know more of the man, I have taken.

I just don't see him winning in this round against Batista, in this stip, because I think Batista has the slight advantage and performs way better as the strong babyface. This is the man who pinned Cena clean for what I gather, the first time in 3 years after his Mania 21 win. I may have to fool proof check that though.

But for anyone reading, if my posts are making you doubt Harley's star, don't. The man was great, territorial but great. Look him up you'll like him

I think this is more of an issue of an old school fan detesting an interwebz guy who think PG era stars are the shitz. I may not be Gelgarin or even Ech but I know my old school.

Just for shit & giggles, amidst all these barbs tell me Lizard King; who would win in a brawl between Meng and Harley?

What I like even better here... is I swear you're paraphrasing me from another post in this (or last years) tournament.

Yes, that's more or less how it worked. You built up your big star for when the champ came in. You put your star in a program with the champ. The champ would make your guy look strong, and help make your business before traveling to the next promoters town to do it all over again.

But... the champ had to be able to do that. People had to care about the champ to make any of that work. He had to mean something.

The territory days were a different animal. For the most part, fans had little way of knowing anything that happened outside of their home area. Cable was new and you might get one or two different wrestling programs, but that was it. The big way that you had to keep up with guys outside of your area was the magazines. Fans would buy all of them, read them cover to cover, and learn all about all the guys they never got to see. The ones that were featured the most, or built up to be the biggest deals... were of course the most popular if they came to your town.

I seem to have shown you a little bit of yourself and I assure you, its all me.

Here's the deal Harley was a great champ but he was best as the HEEL in his prime as the NWA champ. That is also one of the big reasons why H is compared to Harley, the knee strike, the methodical style and that their primes were primarily as heel.

I don't adhere to the "oh Batista beat H clean 3 times in a row" debate with Harley; but this is, if we take their peaks, a top heel Vs top face match innit? And then there is that stip, it is hard to execute a sitout powerbomb, harder than a piledriver or in this case, a hard scoop slam.

The NWA champ (being the biggest championship in the World) was always built up to be a huge deal. You know who was a big attraction in the magazines? Harley Race. You know who had the opportunity to travel that most just didn't have? Harley Race.

Wrestling fans absolutely knew who Harley Race was. They knew him as one of the biggest deals in the business. They knew that if their guy could beat him, it would be amazing. They wanted to see that.

There is a debate to be had here; who made who. Without the strap how many NWA ex-champs were able to draw well outside their territory. Because unless they are champions why would they travel; and then you look at Dusty and Andre (names I mentioned) These two did not need a strap to draw and that is all due to their a)booking b) connection with the people c) attraction value

Actually I don't pay much attention to JR these days, but OK. He's saying that Lesner isn't a draw and only the WWE title itself is? Or am I just reading that wrong? Not sure the point you're trying to make?

You should, he is a lot more vocal about WWE's booking and their power structure. We here sometimes would accuse him of being a coward for taking it up the ass by VKM and Dunn for far too long. Deputy Dog is a lot more rabid now.

I do see you trying to make the point that the belt and opponents made the champ, who had very little to do with anything? Is that seriously what you're trying to say? You think a group of guys (NWA governors) would sit around, campaign, politik, vote on the guy they felt was the best representation of their brand to be champion, and the guy that would make each of them the most money... and not believe that the person with the belt made any type of difference?

No. If they kept a title on someone long term... it was because things were working with that champion. He was drawing. He was making them money. If he wasn't... they'd put the belt on someone else. If they kept going back to someone... then that guy was making them rich.

THAT was the true nature of the NWA territories.

And the champ wasn't sent to all the territories? Somewhat true. Some promoters didn't feel they needed the champ that much. Don Owens in Portland rarely brought the champ in. Vince McMahon in New York (Yes, the WWWF was an NWA territory), would bring the champ in, but he'd promote his own title above the NWA one, and usually not put the NWA champ in the main event. Steve Rickard in New Zealand... got the champ as much as you can expect for New Zealand.

No, see it is how wrestling has always worked. Take for example Nash or Luger, sure they were popular and then they got the strap but people weren't that interested as they were when Austin or Rock got the strap. Again, we need a thread to talk about this that there were good draws and not so good draws as NWA champions. Dory Funk Jr would sell out whenever he wrestled Jack Brisco or Dusty Rhodes; but one wondered who was it that the people came to see really. Brisco was a great face and Jr started dodging him really because Brisco was starting to burn brighter. Then that accident happened and Brisco finally won the strap off (surprise surprise) Harley.

But those were all exceptions, and not the rule. Each territory in the NWA had a guy on the board. They all had to pay fees to be in the NWA. They were doing that for many reasons... a major one though being that they could get the champ. If they wanted him... they were getting him.

And among that board there were 3-4 who were the alphas, I'll let you guess which 4 I'm talking about.

I know you're trying to make an argument against me... because you've failed with your "Race couldn't power bomb" arguments, and your "Batista was a bigger deal than Race... get with the times" arguments. But ironically... you did more to make my argument than anything.

Nope still don't think Harley can Batista Bomb him as easily as Dave can piledrive him. And also making the point that Batista in his peak is better than Race in his peak.

The champ was a draw on a National level. The guy entrusted with the title hence became a national draw. Harley Race was the guy entrusted with the title more than anyone for the longest time. Thus Harley Race was not the small time, territorial draw you've tried painting him as. The NWA was the largest organization in the world. They entrusted their business to Harley Race, and Harley Race delivered. That makes him a bigger deal than a guy who was just a part of a corporate machine that didn't even skip a beat when he left it.

Harley delivered alright, as the heel champ he would go and make Dory Jr or Terry look good in Amarillo and then there would be one young upstart who would be burning so bright (and kissing the right asses) that the board would go yup, this baby face now!

Harley Race was the more important figure. Harley Race was the better wrestler. Harley Race should win this match.

Yes important figure, better worker definitely; but doesn't win the match because Batista is more likely to.

 

[Bernkastel]

The hilarious part about calling Race a territorial star is that the WWE has become so huge and all encompassing of the pro wrestling industry that they are like a "territory" onto themselves. Each wrestler is a cog in the machine and is easily replaceable. The lone exception over the years has been John Cena, but now with Lesnar back and Daniel Bryan consistently popular, he could retire and the WWE wouldn't need him. They could just market Bryan and Orton in his spot. And Batista was no exception.

Back in the day wrestlers came to town and that's when you'd know that there would be a match that night. Television, radio, newspapers, and magazine made it easier. The NWA champion was pro wrestling but nowadays it's the WWE that comes to town and they're pro wrestling. Fans didn't go, "oh Batista is in town let's go see him," it's "lets go see a WWE show. We can see everyone AND Batista."

Race WAS a national and international star. The NWA didn't have a hand hold everywhere, but they outsourced their stars everywhere. All over the world. That was the point of the Alliance. From what I have read Race met the demands of the entire Alliance. He wasn't like Buddy Rogers. And he drew everywhere, unlike Dick Hutton.

So we've established that Race is better than Batista in every way, and he could hit the powerbomb. So there's no reason to vote for Batista other than pure ignorance and favoritism.

 

[Tastycles]

Last night I watched an old round table discussion about 70s wrestling. What I learned was the following:-

The 1970s was undoubtedly the worst period of wrestling in history - it hadn't found its feet as being obviously fake, but it had lost its realism of the 50s and 60s. This is true from both a subjective point of view in terms of artistic merit and a objective point of view in terms of tickets sold.

They asked the legends - J.J. Dillon, Nick Bockwinkel, Michael Hayes, Gene Okerlund and Pat Patterson - who was the biggest name of the 70s. Sammartino was the unquestionable winner, but they were also high on Dusty and Andre the Giant.

My point is this - yes, Harley Race was a big name in the 70s, but this was a time when wrestling was in the doldrums. For me, he is a bit like the Velvet Underground. Music purists love them, and many of today's musicians would cite them as an influence, but the vast majority of people weren't interested in them in their heyday. It's the same with Race - he wasn't as popular as wrestlers before and after him chronologically. You can see this with the indifference of the audience during his late career run in the WWF. Compare that with the recent adulation of Sting or with how Flair was revered 10 years ago.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Why? Because I'm debating in an online fantasy wrestling tourney? I respect the hell out of Harley and what I have heard of him and read of him. I wasn't alive to see him on TV or live like some of us here but every opportunity I have been presented to know more of the man, I have taken.

I just don't see him winning in this round against Batista, in this stip, because I think Batista has the slight advantage and performs way better as the strong babyface. This is the man who pinned Cena clean for what I gather, the first time in 3 years after his Mania 21 win. I may have to fool proof check that though.

But for anyone reading, if my posts are making you doubt Harley's star, don't. The man was great, territorial but great. Look him up you'll like him

I think this is more of an issue of an old school fan detesting an interwebz guy who think PG era stars are the shitz. I may not be Gelgarin or even Ech but I know my old school.

Just for shit & giggles, amidst all these barbs tell me Lizard King; who would win in a brawl between Meng and Harley?





I seem to have shown you a little bit of yourself and I assure you, its all me.

Here's the deal Harley was a great champ but he was best as the HEEL in his prime as the NWA champ. That is also one of the big reasons why H is compared to Harley, the knee strike, the methodical style and that their primes were primarily as heel.

I don't adhere to the "oh Batista beat H clean 3 times in a row" debate with Harley; but this is, if we take their peaks, a top heel Vs top face match innit? And then there is that stip, it is hard to execute a sitout powerbomb, harder than a piledriver or in this case, a hard scoop slam.




There is a debate to be had here; who made who. Without the strap how many NWA ex-champs were able to draw well outside their territory. Because unless they are champions why would they travel; and then you look at Dusty and Andre (names I mentioned) These two did not need a strap to draw and that is all due to their a)booking b) connection with the people c) attraction value



You should, he is a lot more vocal about WWE's booking and their power structure. We here sometimes would accuse him of being a coward for taking it up the ass by VKM and Dunn for far too long. Deputy Dog is a lot more rabid now.




No, see it is how wrestling has always worked. Take for example Nash or Luger, sure they were popular and then they got the strap but people weren't that interested as they were when Austin or Rock got the strap. Again, we need a thread to talk about this that there were good draws and not so good draws as NWA champions. Dory Funk Jr would sell out whenever he wrestled Jack Brisco or Dusty Rhodes; but one wondered who was it that the people came to see really. Brisco was a great face and Jr started dodging him really because Brisco was starting to burn brighter. Then that accident happened and Brisco finally won the strap off (surprise surprise) Harley.



And among that board there were 3-4 who were the alphas, I'll let you guess which 4 I'm talking about.



Nope still don't think Harley can Batista Bomb him as easily as Dave can piledrive him. And also making the point that Batista in his peak is better than Race in his peak.



Harley delivered alright, as the heel champ he would go and make Dory Jr or Terry look good in Amarillo and then there would be one young upstart who would be burning so bright (and kissing the right asses) that the board would go yup, this baby face now!




Yes important figure, better worker definitely; but doesn't win the match because Batista is more likely to.

OK all fair enough. So essentially we're back to can Harley Race do the move?

To which I go back to the picture of him slamming Andre. Yes different mechanics and all that... but that image alone shows that he had the physical strength to perform the move, which you have questioned.

Yes it's easier for Batista to piledrive Race. Lots of people were able to piledrive Race. You're ignoring one very crucial aspect of this match though. Batista still has to score the pinfall after piledriving Race. A couple things work against Batista here.

- he's not known for the piledriver, and likely doesn't have a great one. In his era, it's a banned hold, so he has zero knowledge of how to do one correctly for maximum impact.
- Race was known for having a hard head. He innovated the headbutt off of the top rope. A simple piledriver performed by someone not experienced with the hold is not likely to be enough to keep him down. Piledrivers from more experienced practitioners often weren't enough either

Yes Race doesn't have the experience with the powerbomb either... but that is also a more physically devastating move. And the sit out version is probably easier for him to perform than a traditional one. Plus Batista doesn't have the physical advantage of the thicker skull like Race to absorb the finisher better.

This is how Race wins. Batista can hit the move on him, but it's not going to be enough. Race can return the favor, and it will be enough.

As for who would win your fight between Race and Meng? The guy who didn't die in the end of it. The legend of Meng is well known, and well founded. The legend of Race though? Not as well known, but equal.

Put it this way. Neither guy would have ever fucked with the other. They'd have gotten along great though (and as I understand it they did), because as real tough guys, they would have respected and understood each other in ways that guys like you and me never could.

 

[Bernkastel]

Last night I watched an old round table discussion about 70s wrestling. What I learned was the following:-

The 1970s was undoubtedly the worst period of wrestling in history - it hadn't found its feet as being obviously fake, but it had lost its realism of the 50s and 60s. This is true from both a subjective point of view in terms of artistic merit and a objective point of view in terms of tickets sold.

They asked the legends - J.J. Dillon, Nick Bockwinkel, Michael Hayes, Gene Okerlund and Pat Patterson - who was the biggest name of the 70s. Sammartino was the unquestionable winner, but they were also high on Dusty and Andre the Giant.

My point is this - yes, Harley Race was a big name in the 70s, but this was a time when wrestling was in the doldrums. For me, he is a bit like the Velvet Underground. Music purists love them, and many of today's musicians would cite them as an influence, but the vast majority of people weren't interested in them in their heyday. It's the same with Race - he wasn't as popular as wrestlers before and after him chronologically. You can see this with the indifference of the audience during his late career run in the WWF. Compare that with the recent adulation of Sting or with how Flair was revered 10 years ago.

Which was true. The late 70's weren't like the 50's. But it wasn't like the industry wasn't wholey profitable. It was. I'd compare that period to the late 30's or late 10's. When comparing Harely Race to Batista, who spent his whole career on the B show, that may as well have been the "doldrums" of the WWE, I hardly see why that could be a mark against Race here.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

2014, in this very tournament, Batista defeated Triple H with the Pedigree in the very same match-type. 2015, in this tournament, Batista takes on Triple H of the 70s/80s (I know it's simplistic, but come with me here) and takes him down with the piledriver. At the end of the day, it's the easier move to hit. You put the guy in-between the legs and fall backwards. What Race has to do is brace himself for roughly 270 pounds going on his shoulders (I don't care if he did bodyslam Andre, you stand Harley size and weigh his weight, you have to brace yourself for the larger man you have to physically hoist up and support before dropping him down).

Harley is without question the bigger name, but Batista is lucky with the draw here, yet again. Last year with Hunter, and this year with Harley who I imagine he'd be put over repeatedly much as he was with HHH. This is Batista's all the way.