Welcome to America, AKA Sideshow Central (Another Torgo Political thread)

[Torgo]

Hey guys!

Miss me?

Great. Time for another chat. I promise to be legible this time (sorry Pancake)

Saw this gem on the interwebs today. Confirms that the inmates are running the asylum.

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2015...nder-third-grader-life-as-a-boy-is-liberating

Meet 9-year-old Q Daily, who's recently finished up third grade at the Brooklyn New School in New York City. Q, who was born a girl, just spent his first full school year as a boy.

And to him, that's liberating. Really, he explains, it's everything: "It feels like — instead of a dead flower — a growing flower."

It might be a feeling his peers don't totally understand, but it seems like they really don't care, either.

Billy Griffith is one of Q's closest buddies. They were friends when Q was a girl, too, and they have a lot in common. "We both like Michael Jackson a lot," Billy says. "We're both obsessed with him a lot."

They love to dance, and performed in the school extravaganza two years in a row. They talk. They get along, and Q's transition doesn't affect how they play.

Billy says he probably asked Q at one point why he wanted to be a boy instead of a girl: "I think I forgot what the answer was. I don't know." Billy adds that it doesn't really matter, anyway.

Q transitioned from girl to boy gradually during second grade. That's when he started to dress in boy clothes, dropped his given name, Qwanaia, and wanted to go by "he."

Q's teacher, Katherine Sorel, says the third-grade students have adapted. "Occasionally, there are still kids that will say 'Qwanaia,' " Sorel says. "And still occasionally, they'll say, 'She ... I mean he.' " But it's rare.

The big question at school, though, was the bathroom. Q started using the boys' room on his own in second grade, and says he was told by at least one adult not to.

So Principal Anna Allanbrook did her homework. "And in fact, it is not the place of the school to tell the child which bathroom to use," she says.

Allanbrook learned students should be allowed to use the bathroom of their gender identity. That's backed up by guidelines on transgender students that New York City issued last year. Not all schools in the city follow them; this one does.

The school also tried to follow the lead of Q's parents, who recognize that Q's gender identity is not a whim. They say he began questioning gender going back to age 3 or 4.

Q remembers that his transition started with feelings about his clothes: "I didn't like the dresses, or the pink shirts, or the light blue with the guitar," he recalls. "Or the sparkly stuff."

At first, Q's mom, Francisca Montana, was fascinated by her kid questioning gender stereotypes. "For instance, the color thing — like, purple and blue. I was like, 'Colors are for everybody,' " she says.

But Q kept questioning, so Francisca borrowed some boys' clothes from a friend. And at the end of first grade, Q's dad, Avery Daily, cut Q's hair very short. "It was a new person. A whole light came out," he says.

Avery and Francisca are separated, adapting to Q's gender identity individually. Avery says that, for him, it wasn't easy in the beginning. This was his little girl, and he wondered what people were going to think of him.

"I just thought that people would look at me funny, but I saw that Q had a lot of confidence in what he wanted." So, he accepted the transition.

Francisca really threw herself into the changes, calling Q "he," and researching playgroups for transgender kids in New York City. She's been encouraging, but not everything has been easy for her.

"I miss his name. Because I ..." Pausing, the thought stirs her emotionally, "Because I put a lot of thought into it."

Q, though, says it feels like "55 years ago" when he was a girl. He says he thinks of crying, too, when he hears the name Qwanaia, because, "that tells me that they don't believe that I'm a boy."

Q's parents are supportive of however the situation plays out. But, they are bracing themselves for a different conversation ahead, with puberty just around the bend.

Francisca says Q is nervous about becoming a teenager, "After all the clothing and stuff, then he started thinking about his body."

For now, they're grateful that — at age 9 — Q has a little bit of time before his body begins to change. But there's not much.

Lets see. What is wrong here?

I know...a fucking 9 year old believes that she is a boy.

Because we all know what we wanna be at 9? I wanted to be a garbage man.

Because there are no tomboys in the world? Those girls don't like "dresses, or the pink shirts or the sparkly stuff".

I love this.

Instead of taking this girl to a counselor or something, to talk about it, or realizing that she could be a tomboy, her parents go overboard.

Lets play dress up! Because if she looks like a boy, she must be one, right?

Never mind that she has a vagina. Or a uterus. Or (soon) will have female breasts. Or a period. Hell, she has 2 X chromosomes. Those cannot be changed! At all!

But hey! She dresses like a boy. She must be one. Oops I mean he (don't come for me, Thought Police). Take drugs! Stop puberty! Completely mess up your body! Build a happy lie to live in! Yaaay!

This couldn't be a childhood phase. No, she/he/it must know, at age 9, what it is "meant" to be. Gender doesn't matter! You are who you choose to be!

Well I'm a trans-billionaire. Where's my money?

See how ridiculous this is? This little girl is severely flawed in the head. Or maybe she isn't! Maybe she is a tomboy. Its really ok!

Maybe its possible (ok, its likely, I mean my god what kind of name is Qwanaia?) that her parents went to level 11. After all, they were the ones who bought the boys clothing and cut her hair!

Just maybe, the parents are feeding this crap to Qwanaia. Maybe she believes that she is a boy. Whether this is the parents fault or her own mind, that's beside the point, which is she needs help.

This PC culture is breeding all sorts of crazy mental cases. From the trans-racial garbage to the psychopath "trans-abled" people who hurt themselves because they don't "feel right in their body". Hey, you feel like that arm doesn't fit you? Cut it right off! Don't feel like you were white? no problem, presto, you're black now! My, you feel like a girl? Go ahead any use the Girls' locker room, no problemo! And anyone who objects is a bigot!!!!

Am I the only one who sees the insanity here??

YOU ARE WHO YOU ARE BORN AS. BLACK, WHITE, BOY, GIRL, WITH ARMS OR NOT. You were made that way for a reason, and wanting to change it is complete insanity. I don't want to have my daughter changing in the same room as some creep who "believes" he is a woman. I don't think anyone does, but that's what this group is petitioning!

And by God if you disagree, its the end of the world.

That's what this story is, that's what the whole "Trans-" movement is. Its bullshit, and unfortunately it is growing. Lock up your daughters, the crazy train is a-coming.

 

[therockiswwf]

I'll compare this to my ADD. I know for a fact that I have ADD. I can feel "it" when I forget to take my pills. I can't force myself to pay attention without my pills. I also can't describe the feeling in a way that would make sense to you (it feels like a hole in my brain). You wouldn't understand why I cant just force myself to pay attention. You can't feel what I do. You just don't get it.

That's exactly what is happening here. You don't get it. You cannot understand it. Q identifies with the male gender. You somehow think this is just because she's a tomboy, which is incorrect. Girls who are tomboys are different than girls who feel like they are a boy trapped in a girl's body.

Your kind of close minded thinking does more harm than you think. Your kind of thinking causes people to commit suicide. Causes people to try to hide their true feelings. To feel like they are somehow wrong no matter what they actually feel.

Stop trying to understand and just accept it. I don't understand why he feels this way too cause it's impossible for me to feel what he does. But that doesn't mean I think he is just confused. It means yeah I don't get it but I know you truly feel that way.

If this were my kid, I would support them no matter what. The only thing that matters is character. If your god judges people on anything other than their character, then your god doesn't deserve to be worshipped.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

I get that you're trolling people with the fanatical Limbaugh talk, but I'll bite.

If you don't believe a person should alter their God-given bodies, then how can you follow a belief system that permits circumcision?

You claim that it is unnatural, but what is truly unnatural is how anyone can go on a tirade about how other people wish to live while things like pollution, climate change, racism, etc are still a very real thing in our society. So what if Q feels like they are transgendered? Is this bothering you so badly that you had to bitch about it on a forum that praises effeminate men and macho women?

Grow up Torgo, or watch the world move along without you. People have killed themselves over not being accepted for this shit.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Lets see. What is wrong here?

I know...a fucking 9 year old believes that she is a boy.

Because we all know what we wanna be at 9?

Are you admitting that you had gender issues at age 9?

Personally, I knew I was a boy.

I wanted to be a garbage man.

So you didn't know what gender you were at age 9 but you know you were garbage? Fascinating, please go on.

Because there are no tomboys in the world? Those girls don't like "dresses, or the pink shirts or the sparkly stuff".

There are tomboys but there are also transgender kids.

I love this.

Nine year olds with gender issues? You think gay people have mental issues but you love nine year olds with gender issues. You are a sick fuck.

Instead of taking this girl to a counselor or something, to talk about it, or realizing that she could be a tomboy, her parents go overboard.

How do you know they never sought counselling? Are you Q? That would explain a lot.

Lets play dress up! Because if she looks like a boy, she must be one, right?

Never mind that she has a vagina. Or a uterus. Or (soon) will have female breasts. Or a period. Hell, she has 2 X chromosomes. Those cannot be changed! At all!

But hey! She dresses like a boy. She must be one. Oops I mean he (don't come for me, Thought Police). Take drugs! Stop puberty! Completely mess up your body! Build a happy lie to live in! Yaaay!

The article never said anything about taking drugs. What kind of fantasy world are you living in?

This couldn't be a childhood phase. No, she/he/it must know, at age 9, what it is "meant" to be. Gender doesn't matter! You are who you choose to be!

Well I'm a trans-billionaire. Where's my money?

See how ridiculous this is? This little girl is severely flawed in the head. Or maybe she isn't! Maybe she is a tomboy. Its really ok!

Maybe its possible (ok, its likely, I mean my god what kind of name is Qwanaia?) that her parents went to level 11. After all, they were the ones who bought the boys clothing and cut her hair!

Just maybe, the parents are feeding this crap to Qwanaia. Maybe she believes that she is a boy. Whether this is the parents fault or her own mind, that's beside the point, which is she needs help.

A lot of "maybes" there Torgo. Do you think you are the only one who questioned what is going on in Q's life and Q's head? Are you that stupid to think anyone is taking this lightly and just rushing in to it without skepticism? Do you really think everyone who cares for this child is going to allow these changes to be made when there are idiots out there like you who are going to make life harder on them with your intolerance and stupidity?

This PC culture is breeding all sorts of crazy mental cases. From the trans-racial garbage to the psychopath "trans-abled" people who hurt themselves because they don't "feel right in their body". Hey, you feel like that arm doesn't fit you? Cut it right off! Don't feel like you were white? no problem, presto, you're black now! My, you feel like a girl? Go ahead any use the Girls' locker room, no problemo! And anyone who objects is a bigot!!!!

Am I the only one who sees the insanity here??

YOU ARE WHO YOU ARE BORN AS. BLACK, WHITE, BOY, GIRL, WITH ARMS OR NOT. You were made that way for a reason, and wanting to change it is complete insanity. I don't want to have my daughter changing in the same room as some creep who "believes" he is a woman. I don't think anyone does, but that's what this group is petitioning!

And by God if you disagree, its the end of the world.

That's what this story is, that's what the whole "Trans-" movement is. Its bullshit, and unfortunately it is growing. Lock up your daughters, the crazy train is a-coming.

Stunning stuff. How is the girlfriend situation going? You seem a little repressed? Want to share your feelings with us? Meanwhile, stop surfing the net for stories like this. It is really creepy.

 

[Akhilleus]

The only thing I have to say to this is...why do you care? How does this in anyway at all impact you or your life? They aren't forcing you or your children to have a sex change. It's about a child who wasn't happy with who they were, and now they are through the advancements of medicine. Why do you care in anyway what that child or the child's family do? Are you going to get cancer because some kid in the same state as you got a sex change? That's how it works huh? God is just like "Uh oh, a 9 year old girl just got a sex change to become a boy up in New York, looks like I have to send everyone in that state to hell now. What a shame".

This doesn't affect you in anyway. You can't even say you have to pay taxes on it, because those types of surgeries are paid out of pocket.

The only thing I have to disagree with about this thing is that it was made public. These sorts of things, while shouldn't be hushed and hidden, also don't need to be broadcasted to everyone either. It's their own personal life. What people do in their own personal life as long as it doesn't affect my well being (Which rarely does) is their own business. For example, the whole Bruce Jenner storyline is ridiculous. What he does in his personal life is his own business, but I don't want to hear about it every time I turn on the news.

Still though, it's their own choices. Their lives...we don't have a say in it. So why do you care so damn much about what people do with their own lives?

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Sounds like typical, hardcore, right wing bullshit that's ultimately about distracting attention from actual issues affecting the country, and the world as a whole for that matter.

I don't pretend to know what goes through the mind of someone who feels that they were born the wrong gender just as I don't know what goes through the mind of someone that's sexually attracted to someone of the same gender. I've never been there, I've never had to go through those issues and I'd rather listen to those people who actually have dealt with such things rather than small minded bigots who believe they know better than those people themselves.

I don't see why this bugs the right wing so much. When it comes to life itself, the right wing conservative movement, as a whole, has a major problem when it comes to the government or anyone else regulating businesses, gun rights, free speech, etc. but they're all for some self-righteous, ignorant bores telling everyone how they should live, what they should believe, what books they ought to be allowed to read, what movies & TV shows they should or shouldn't be allowed to watch and who they should fall in love with.

There are legitimate issues going on right now that, in my opinion, are more worthy of energy and effort in terms of trying to solve them. There are Islamic extremists who see it as their duty to essentially obliterate any culture that doesn't share their beliefs, roughly 7.6 million people die a year from cancer including about 565,000 in the United States, about 1.3 million Americans are HIV positive, there's been a resurgence in racial tension & animosity over the past several years due to a number of high profile cases in the media, roughly 300,000 people are victims of sexual assault each year & those are just the ones who report it. These issues don't even remotely scratch the surface and are issues that affect pretty much everyone, but these are difficult problems that nobody, left or right, really seems to know what to do about, so it's easier to distract us by focusing on something like people simply trying to get through a messy world the best way they can.

 

[Rayne]

Sounds like typical, hardcore, right wing bullshit that's ultimately about distracting attention from actual issues affecting the country, and the world as a whole for that matter.

It's tough fucking times for people who identify as 'conservative'. I of course mean conservative in the way the term has been historically used, and not the batshit insane 'more conservative than thou' mania which has gripped an unfortunately large portion of the population.

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with politics, beyond the fact that there are politicians who use issues which have nothing to do with the business of running a city/state/country to secure votes.

Torgo, in conclusion:

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

Regardless of your gender or race, you should be proud of who you are and shouldn't want to change who you are. I used to think that my appearance wasn't the greatest but eventually I learned to be myself and not care about what others thought. Maybe he/she should go to counselling, and I do understand it could be hard on him/her.

 

[Rayne]

Regardless of your gender or race, you should be proud of who you are and shouldn't want to change who you are. I used to think that my appearance wasn't the greatest but eventually I learned to be myself and not care about what others thought. Maybe he/she should go to counselling, and I do understand it could be hard on him/her.

One of the regular competitors at the professional level of the disc golf scene (there is such a thing) is incredibly proud of who she is, and she's far more proud of who she is since she decided to identify as a woman instead of a man.

What you meant to say is, "you should be proud of what I perceive you to be".

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

One of the regular competitors at the professional level of the disc golf scene (there is such a thing) is incredibly proud of who she is, and she's far more proud of who she is since she decided to identify as a woman instead of a man.

What you meant to say is, "you should be proud of what I perceive you to be".

If you got a vagina, you're a girl. Plain and simple. She should be proud of who she is, which is a girl.

 

[Rayne]

If you got a vagina, you're a girl. Plain and simple. She should be proud of who she is, which is a girl.

So if someone goes post-op, then they have a vagina, therefore they are a girl, and are justified in being proud of the transition they've made.

Logic!

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

So if someone goes post-op, then they have a vagina, therefore they are a girl, and are justified in being proud of the transition they've made.

Logic!

Sheesh, just forget about it man. If you want new private parts and a new identity, get it. Just leave me out of it.

I simply think people should be proud of who they are because they were made that way for a reason.

 

[therockiswwf]

Regardless of your gender or race, you should be proud of who you are and shouldn't want to change who you are. I used to think that my appearance wasn't the greatest but eventually I learned to be myself and not care about what others thought. Maybe he/she should go to counselling, and I do understand it could be hard on him/her.

You're talking about an image problem. Which is a completely different issue.

He isn't ashamed of his appearance, he is just a guy trapped in a women's body. You should listen to your own words, he is proud that he identifies himself with the male gender. He shouldn't change how he feels. He is being himself.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

You're talking about an image problem. Which is a completely different issue.

He isn't ashamed of his appearance, he is just a guy trapped in a women's body. You should listen to your own words, he is proud that he identifies himself with the male gender. He shouldn't change how he feels. He is being himself.

No, I'm not talking about an image problem. I'm talking about being proud of who you are and why you shouldn't want to change yourself.

I know what I said. She's a girl. She wants to be a guy but should be proud of who she is.

 

[therockiswwf]

No, I'm not talking about an image problem. I'm talking about being proud of who you are and why you shouldn't want to change yourself.

He isn't changing himself. Who you are is not based off your physical appearance. Who you are is based off your personality and character. Him identifying with the male gender doesn't make him lose his character. We may just disagree on the definition of changing yourself. I solely base it off personality and character.

I think you're assuming the reason people do this is because they are ashamed or something of who they are. Which isn't the case. They just feel like they were born with the wrong gender.

You said something about your appearance not being great. Which is an image problem unless I interpreted that wrong.

 

[Con T.]

Sheesh, just forget about it man. If you want new private parts and a new identity, get it. Just leave me out of it.

I simply think people should be proud of who they are because they were made that way for a reason.

Duuude, aren't you the one coming up in this thread, and pretty much just throwing your thoughts out there with no provocation? This clearly matters to you; enough so that the whole "leave me out of it" comes off disingenuous, when you offer your proverbial two cents into the matter.

You're trying to take all of the nuance out of a matter that takes a lot of nuance. Shocking, considering it seems you have quite a few mouth-breather tendencies.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

He isn't changing himself. Who you are is not based off your physical appearance. Who you are is based off your personality and character. Him identifying with the male gender doesn't make him lose his character. We may just disagree on the definition of changing yourself. I solely base it off personality and character.

Who you are isn't based off physical appearance, but if you're a boy or girl is. "Who you are" and "what gender you are" are two different things.

I think you're assuming the reason people do this is because they are ashamed or something of who they are. Which isn't the case. They just feel like they were born with the wrong gender.

You said something about your appearance not being great. Which is an image problem unless I interpreted that wrong.

If you're born a girl and don't want to be one, then yes you are ashamed of who you are. She shouldn't be but unfortunately is.

My appearance being not that great may not have been the best comparison, but I think it applies to this situation. I learned to be fine with who I am, and she should too.

 

[Con T.]

My appearance being not that great may not have been the best comparison, but I think it applies to this situation. I learned to be fine with who I am, and she should too.

Aaaand we've reached the heart of the issue; you're trying to apply your sensibilities to someone else's problem.

I'm sure you have issues with your appearance; I'm sure you're totally comfortable with your gender. What I'm trying to say is, applying your sensibilities, with what seems like very little experience in this realm, really comes off rather myopic.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

Aaaand we've reached the heart of the issue; you're trying to apply your sensibilities to someone else's problem.

I'm sure you have issues with your appearance; I'm sure you're totally comfortable with your gender. What I'm trying to say is, applying your sensibilities, with what seems like very little experience in this realm, really comes off rather myopic.

I'll admit that I don't know the full story. I assumed (rightfully so) that when someone wants to change themselves, he or she is insecure about hisself or herself. I'm just saying you should be who you are and be proud of it, and I learned to do so. I think it applies to this situation.

 

[Con T.]

I'll admit that I don't know the full story. I assumed (rightfully so) that when someone wants to change themselves, he or she is insecure about hisself or herself. I'm just saying you should be who you are and be proud of it, and I learned to do so. I think it applies to this situation.

Not entirely.

There's a fine line between feeling a little heavy, and feeling as though you are the wrong gender. There's no easy answer to being born a gender you don't identify it, because society has by and large told you to just be ok with who you are.

This isn't like a quick physical appearance change; especially when you consider that someone trans is dealing with a life of feeling abnormal, and being told that how he/she identifies him/her self does not matter.

 

[Con T.]

Let's just agree to disagree. I'm stating the same argument over and over again and if you disagree, then you just disagree. That's fine. Believe what you want to.

How about no?

How about, we work through your admitted ignorance, and how about we actually work on your issues? Like, I mean, that's kind of what I'm trying to do, here. Because, if you keep insulating your thought process of "it's my opinion", you're willingly keeping yourself ignorant. And the less ignorant people in the world, frankly, the better.

So, instead of agreeing to disagree, I invite you to consider that staying in a place of ignorance, in the long run, prolly ain't doing you any good.

But hey, man, you do you. Just trying to help over here.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

This is my last post on any of these threads. You guys can change from boys to girls and girls to boys all you want to. It doesn't matter; I simply think people should be proud of who they are and what they believe. I'm done. It's clear you guys have a different opinion, so we're wasting our time.

 

[Con T.]

This is my last post on any of these threads. You guys can change from boys to girls and girls to boys all you want to. It doesn't matter; I simply think people should be proud of who they are and what they believe. I'm done. It's clear you guys have a different opinion, so we're wasting our time.

Look, maybe I was a bit harsh, but the truth is, I don't want any bad feelings out of this. I don't want you to change your opinion. But do understand, again, your point of view comes from one without a full understanding of what trans people go through. It's ok to believe what you want to believe. But it comes off as unwilling to understand the legitimate sufferings of other people, who are not like you.

 

[Rayne]

This is my last post on any of these threads. You guys can change from boys to girls and girls to boys all you want to. It doesn't matter; I simply think people should be proud of who they are and what they believe. I'm done. It's clear you guys have a different opinion, so we're wasting our time.

And so I ask again; if you're only looking to discuss these issues with people who already share the same opinion as you, why on earth are you discussing these things on a professional wrestling message board? Since the primary interest of these forums has nothing to do with the topic being discussed, you are virtually guaranteed to find people who disagree with your opinion.

I've no interest in "agreeing to disagree", because that would imply that I find your argument a valid one. The "this is how I feel, and I don't want to discuss it" tells people that you don't have any respect for their opinions, and that you believe the posters on this board exist for the sole purpose of shouting your opinions at them. Why on earth should I respect your opinion, when it's clear you've come into this discussion without the intent to respect other people's opinions?

If you just want to have your opinions and not change them for anything because Southern Pride, keep a diary. When you're looking to discuss things again with people who may disagree passionately with you, the Internet will still be here.

 

[Alastor]

This is messed up to be honest. The kid's just 9 years old, I'm not sure the parents should let him decide he wants to be a boy at that age. Just let him be a tomboy and dress in boys clothing and do boy stuff till puberty. Can't there be a bargaining system between the child and parents to accept being a girl before his body changes during puberty? What if the kid has a fear of surgery down the line to become a man physically? And is he going to accept being graded as a girl for physical education classes since that is determined by the physical body of the kid? It is just awkward all around to go this route so early imo.