Which Meant More To Wrestling: Austin's Coronation, or Hulk Hogan's Heel Turn

[Tenta]

[YOUTUBE]Q_atmzsOrK0&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]VS.[YOUTUBE]t6aRr9zhyM8[/YOUTUBE]​

Before me right now rests, arguably, the two most important moments in the history of professional wrestling. Yet, as far as I've searched back on these forums, no one has compared the two just yet. Shocking, as they happened in the same year, two months away from one another, and involve without a shadow of a doubt the two biggest stars in the history of professional wrestling. Blah blah blah Rock and Mick Foley, that's all bullshit, really. It is, undeniably, Austin and Hogan who sold the most tickets, drew the most ratings, and overall made more money for their companies than anyone else in the history of professional wrestling. What's even more shocking was that these two events happened within a month of each other. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but while King of the Ring occured on June 23rd, 1996, The Bash at the Beach happened July 7th, 1996. These two events happened two weeks from one another. Both led to events that would ultimately change the sport of professional wrestling. The question is, which meant more to wrestling; The Heel Turn, or The Speech.

First, let's get this out of the way, in that while the nWo may have been popular without Hogan, it'd have by no means the staying power without The Hulkster. Hulk Hogan turning heel gave us all a sense of how big this event was to wrestling. Not only were the Outsiders threatening to take over WCW, they had gotten to the babyface of all babyfaces, and made him realize they were the way to go. This group meant fucking business. The nWo was critical to creating the Monday Night War, and in turn, Hogan was the most important person in stabilizing the importance of the New World Order. Consequentally, this was the group to change how the "cool heel" would be done. Hogan and The Otusiders were so damn cool, it was almost hard to boo them, until you realized they were out to kill the company. Without the nWo, there is no DX, there is no other "cool" heel group you see out there now, at least in the manner you see them.

Which makes it so damn to pick Steve Austin, until you realize; this shaped the biggest superstar in the hottest era in professional wrestling. 90% of why The Attitude Era was so damn good, whether anyone will admit it, was Steve Austin, and he was the perfect symbol for what would eventually happen. Simply put, without the Attitude Era, one can say there would be no WWE, and Steve Austin was the face everyone wanted to see when they bought tickets. Trust me, if you think The Attitude Era would have survived with anyone but austin, you're dead wrong. This promo established himself as the person everyone cared about, and wanted to see. While the nWo was good for plenty of people, Steve Austin was necessary for the entire company. Without Steve Austin, there is no WWE, and without him winning the King of the Ring, there's no way to know if there'd be an Austin. Plus, that catchphrase would do so much good merchandising, and make him the marketable figure he'd become.

You're call, but which of these events were more important; Hogan's Heel Turn, or Austin's Coronation

 

[CobraVenom]

Hogan's heel turn which was impactful from the start. The second he leg dropped Savage, we knew we had the beginning of something special. Whereas, when Austin made his 3:16 speech, there wasn't any inkling of anything special about to happen. In retrospect, they are the two of the greatest moments of wrestling history, but we still had to wait for Austin to break out.

 

[Thriller Ant]

As a solitary moment, you have to go with Hogan dropping the leg on Macho. This was an absolute shock and put the wheels in motion for WCW to become the toughest competition in WWF/E's history. Yes, Austin's speech laid the basis for Overrated Era, but at that time, it was just a random midcard guy cutting a promo after winning a tournament for midcarders. They were both necessary for the boom in the '90's, but Hogan is the better moment.

 

[jmt225]

The thing is, man, if Hogan's heel turn never happened, then I don't think Austin 3:16 would have ever happened either, which is why I have to go with Hogan turning heel on this one.

The fact of the matter is, Hogan's heel turn was the beginning of the boom period for professional wrestling in the mid-nineties. Without a spark you cannot start a fire, and Hulk Hogan turning heel was the spark that lit a fire under the WWF's ass to get their shit together.

So, yeah, man... the choice here is pretty indisputable; it's Hogan all the way. While Austin was able to create a more successful run due to his unselfishness and ability to put other wrestlers over, without Hogan and the nWo I firmly believe Austin would have never received the chance to become what he became. Sure, Hogan eventually drove WCW into the ground, while Austin kept WWE furnishing for years, but regardless... the person who started it all deserves the most credit, and Hogan's heel turn is what started the transformation of professional wrestling catering to a more adult audience.

 

[Tenta]

The thing is, man, if Hogan's heel turn never happened, then I don't think Austin 3:16 would have ever happened either, which is why I have to go with Hogan turning heel on this one.

Funny, because we both know Austin happened first, man. I don't think anyone planned for Austin to go over the way he did, but it was more than some mid card guy getting in a promo. You could tell from the time he said it, there wa a superstar waiting to come out, man.

The fact of the matter is, Hogan's heel turn was the beginning of the boom period for professional wrestling in the mid-nineties. Without a spark you cannot start a fire, and Hulk Hogan turning heel was the spark that lit a fire under the WWF's ass to get their shit together.

Now, see, I agree with this. But even, the spark for Hogan dies out far quicker than it did for Austin. Yes, age plays a huge role in the matter, but when you look at that promo, that set up the basis for what was more or less the introduction to a new character. Remember, only one month earlier Austin lost Ted Dibiase as his manager, and didn't really have anything with Creative. The 3:16 promo set up what this new austin was, a no nonsense bad ass who said whatever was on his mind. Besides, the signs for Attitude were there at the time. They had an adultery storyline with Shawn and Bulldog, Pillman gave his rant earlier. The WWE was setting up for more of an adult theme. They just needed someone to carry a monkier that would dignify the "Attitude" name. That would be Steve Austin

So, yeah, man... the choice here is pretty indisputable; it's Hogan all the way. While Austin was able to create a more successful run due to his unselfishness and ability to put other wrestlers over, without Hogan and the nWo I firmly believe Austin would have never received the chance to become what he became.

I can see the argument here, but I have to disagree, under my ealier assertion that at the least, the WWE was becoming more adult. Pillman has a gun, the eventual Mankind/Taker storyline, which morphed into Taker/Kane. Hell, in seven months, Vince would have ECW on their show, invading the program. The pieces were already there for Attitude. Austin just proved that night he could carry the company.

Sure, Hogan eventually drove WCW into the ground, while Austin kept WWE furnishing for years, but regardless... the person who started it all deserves the most credit, and Hogan's heel turn is what started the transformation of professional wrestling catering to a more adult audience.

I agree that Hogan kicked off the gears, but at the end of the day, I care more about who was more effective with how the catering to an adult audience went. And I have to go with Austin here
I think it all started

 

[jmt225]

Funny, because we both know Austin happened first, man. I don't think anyone planned for Austin to go over the way he did, but it was more than some mid card guy getting in a promo. You could tell from the time he said it, there wa a superstar waiting to come out, man.

Yeah, my bad. But regardless.. you have to believe that Hall and Nash making the impact they were making in WCW was why WWE started getting more edgier and letting Austin go out there and raise hell like that.

Now, see, I agree with this. But even, the spark for Hogan dies out far quicker than it did for Austin. Yes, age plays a huge role in the matter, but when you look at that promo, that set up the basis for what was more or less the introduction to a new character. Remember, only one month earlier Austin lost Ted Dibiase as his manager, and didn't really have anything with Creative. The 3:16 promo set up what this new austin was, a no nonsense bad ass who said whatever was on his mind. Besides, the signs for Attitude were there at the time. They had an adultery storyline with Shawn and Bulldog, Pillman gave his rant earlier. The WWE was setting up for more of an adult theme. They just needed someone to carry a monkier that would dignify the "Attitude" name. That would be Steve Austin

Let's be honest here though, man... the ONLY reason that spark dies out as quickly as it did was because of Hogan's selfishness. Not because the angle couldn't have remained hot and create new stars, but because of a couple of egos. That's the ONLY reason. Had Hogan put over Sting cleanly at Starrcade 1997, and then the nWo started to detach and putting over new, young stars like Raven, Jericho, Mysterio, etc... there's no telling how long WCW and WWF would have competed against one another. But, since Hogan and his buddies were selfish pricks who cared only about looking "cool" on television rather than doing what was best for the product... WCW went to shit.

I can see the argument here, but I have to disagree, under my ealier assertion that at the least, the WWE was becoming more adult. Pillman has a gun, the eventual Mankind/Taker storyline, which morphed into Taker/Kane. Hell, in seven months, Vince would have ECW on their show, invading the program. The pieces were already there for Attitude. Austin just proved that night he could carry the company.

Fair enough, but would they have pushed it to the limit they did without the nWo? I'm not too sure about that, man.

Also, you brought up ECW... let me state for the record, that ECW also had a HUGE impact on both WWE and WCW back then and that if ECW never existed, I'm not too sure the nWo and the Attitude Era would have as well.

I agree that Hogan kicked off the gears, but at the end of the day, I care more about who was more effective with how the catering to an adult audience went. And I have to go with Austin here

I completely agree, but I still believe WCW would have been just as edgy and as good as the WWF was at that time if they weren't run by a bunch of cowards who were afraid of its top workers, and if those top workers weren't a bunch of selfish pricks to begin with.

 

[Via Armbar]

The deciding factor to me in this situation is the past. At the time, one man had already written his name in stone as the most successful professional wrestler in history. The other had some success already but in no way was it comparable to Hulk Hogan's.

We don't have to make this a history lesson on Hogan; his accomplishments are well documented. We should look at the landscape of wrestling at the time however. The WWE had lost many of it's top performers it had relied on like Hogan and Savage. It had newer champions like Michaels and Hart. The WWE had been posting lower numbers all across the board at the time. Attendance had been lower, buy rates weren't what they used to be a merchandise slowed as well. They weren't going bankrupt but they sure had seen better times. Things for them were changing all around and this ''youth movement'' seemed to moving at the speed of paint drying in terms of being profitable. Wrestling fans in general had changed and were still changing, and with any market change is hard to keep up with. It seemed that the WWE had gotten a little ahead of themselves with their movement.

WCW were doing much better at the time. They had the more familiar faces from WWE's past that the fans were more used to. While it wasn't a golden age of wrestling to say the least, WCW had a much firmer grip on the business than the WWE did at the time. The also had the biggest name in professional wrestling history. The events that unfolded at Bash at the Beach in 1996 are legendary. One of the most shocking and creative twists in wrestling history would forever be embedded in the minds of fans. A Hulk Hogan heel turn would be equivalent to a Jesus Christ heel turn. Okay, an act of sacrilege perhaps but my point should be clear. Those events set up one of the most popular and successful stables of all time known as the N.W.O. and the world of wrestling would never be the same. They redefined what a heel is; no longer the coward who runs at the sight of opposing offense. No, these heels were the cool kids at school. Bullies that weren't afraid to get their hands dirty. Everyone wanted to be them, nobody wanted to oppose them. Hulk was the leader of this new age biker gang and it wouldn't have been the same without him. The way was now paved for groups like Degeneration X and WCW itself would see a boom in success. If they didn't have an edge over the WWE, they did now. Consider this the first part in building the Monday night wars.

Change the channel and you would see a man by the moniker of Stone Cold Steve Austin. Fans were familiar with Austin, but under the name of The Ringmaster. Corny name of course but Austin had mad it work well enough because of his charisma and style. Now, he was performing under a character that was more ruthless and down right nasty...and it fit like glove. He had just beaten a veteran in Jake the Snake Roberts and won the King of the Ring tournament. Then his speech...I'm not sure if a couple of words has ever meant as much to this sport as the ones that Austin spoke that night. Not only was one of the most profitable catchphrases ever born that night, but a character was born. A character that would echo the sentiments and desires of fans all across the world. A big middle finger to management, the man, your boss, whomever had been keeping you down. This set in motion one of the most explosive and entertaining rises to the top of all time. Fans were glued to the television, wondering who would incur the wrath of the rattlesnake next.

Though the Monday Night Wars would continue until January of 1999 when the then WWF powered over Nitro, the pot had been stirred years before. WCW had reinvigorated themselves by doing something that had never been done. Something new and revolutionary was just what they needed to get people interested in wrestling again. The lead they already had on the WWE was now stronger as a result. What the WWE had done with Austin though not only saved their asses but designed a NEW Hulk Hogan in an entirely different fashion. They gave the fans exactly what they needed at the time. The fans latched on like a fat kid to the last slice of pizza and didn't let go. Eventually the NWO would become somewhat of a joke, resembling the revolving guest host position of a late night talk show more than a wrestling stable. Too many faces, not enough time nor talent within the group. Austin would go on to make the company money until the day he retired.

So when you break it down to the simplest of terms, here is what you get: Austin potentially saved an entire company. The same company that would end the life of its competitor years later. That really should be enough of an argument. Sure what WCW did with the NWO revolutionized the game, but so did Austin. The NWO didn't create any stars, especially ones who's success rivaled that of Hogan's. Austin and the WWE did do that and in some peoples minds surpassed what Hogan had done. That to me makes it mean more to wrestling's history than anything else.

 

[Tenta]

Yeah, my bad. But regardless.. you have to believe that Hall and Nash making the impact they were making in WCW was why WWE started getting more edgier and letting Austin go out there and raise hell like that.

You do have something there, sir. Though, at least initially, it looked as though McMahon was dismissive about Hall and Nash defecting. It wasn't until October that he at least acknowledged that he in fact wasn't leading Hall and Nash into the company. It then took another two weeks for him to respond with Fake Diesel and Fake Razor. It's really my belief that Vince didn't want to recognize Hall and Nash, though you have a point in saying that maybe that lead to the need for edginess. I'd say it goes more to looking to another promotion, but you get into that later.

Let's be honest here though, man... the ONLY reason that spark dies out as quickly as it did was because of Hogan's selfishness. Not because the angle couldn't have remained hot and create new stars, but because of a couple of egos. That's the ONLY reason.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.... Let's not get ahead of ourselves, JMT. Yes, politics led to plenty of people getting buried, but if Hogan were still young, and Hall and Nash could perform half as well as they did even ten years ago, you'd be right. Come now, half the problem with the nWo was that everyone was relatively old, and the older they got, the more their in ring work deteriorated. Not that Hogan was ever a dynamo in an American ring because his size wouldn't allow it, but his age really got the better of him at some point. And I think that has to be noted when we make our decision here.

Had Hogan put over Sting cleanly at Starrcade 1997, and then the nWo started to detach and putting over new, young stars like Raven, Jericho, Mysterio, etc... there's no telling how long WCW and WWF would have competed against one another. But, since Hogan and his buddies were selfish pricks who cared only about looking "cool" on television rather than doing what was best for the product... WCW went to shit.

Now, I agree with this, in principle. However, I don't think that was merely it. Remember, in the middle of 1999, WCW was still putting on respectable house show attendance and ratings. The problem was that the WWE, off Stone Cold's back mind you, was putting on a better show. Austin wasn't exactly putting people over; Hell, he squashed Kane cleanly in the middle of the ring after Kane beat him a night earlier. Mind you, this was the Kane that needed three tombstones. No, simple fact is, that WCW was in trouble because of the politics, but overall, the WWE was just putting on better shows, off the back of Steve Austin.

Fair enough, but would they have pushed it to the limit they did without the nWo? I'm not too sure about that, man.

It depends. We, admittedly, need to know when Russo got into McMahon's ear. I think that was more a turning point than anything.

Also, you brought up ECW... let me state for the record, that ECW also had a HUGE impact on both WWE and WCW back then and that if ECW never existed, I'm not too sure the nWo and the Attitude Era would have as well.

Ding. Ding. Ding. Can we get the man a prize?

Hell, look at the people they were bringing in, JMT. Austin, Foley, Candido who could have been something if they didn't fuck him over. He was bringing in these men from ECW to his shows. Don't you think ECW had something to do with his mindset? It's quite apparent at least Jim Ross was watching ECW at the time. And I feel that meant more to Vince, really. That, and Smoky Mountain, as well. I feel as though Vince tapped into Jim Cornette for ideas on characters, and we got the N.O.D, Mankind, all that, really.

I completely agree, but I still believe WCW would have been just as edgy and as good as the WWF was at that time if they weren't run by a bunch of cowards who were afraid of its top workers, and if those top workers weren't a bunch of selfish pricks to begin with.

Again, agreed in principle. But we have to take that into account, and we have to recognize that was always the case in WCW. In WCW, you'd have to almost murder someone to get at least scolded by an Exec there. That's the way it always was, and there's no reason to believe it would change here. Though we do agree that it should have.

 

[Via Armbar]

Just to point out, I have been led to believe that ECW and their style had influenced Austin and most of the Attitude era more than anything that the WCW did. I believe Russo has even pointed this out many times when people bring up how much the NWO had influenced the Attitude Era in general. It makes perfect sense when you look a little deeper into things and especially ECW's characters.

 

[Tenta]

Just to point out, I have been led to believe that ECW and their style had influenced Austin and most of the Attitude era more than anything that the WCW did. I believe Russo has even pointed this out many times when people bring up how much the NWO had influenced the Attitude Era in general. It makes perfect sense when you look a little deeper into things and especially ECW's characters.

This. This can not be forgotten. Though I think the second sentence may be a little messed up. Still, the WWE was so heavily influenced by ECW at this point, more so than WCW, honestly. I know WCW was the competition, but the guys who were putting on the best shows were ECW at the time. I really do but that WWE was more focused on the ECW lineup, and learning from them, than anything. Bischoff was clueless, and would never get it, but Vince surely did, and took note heavily. By the time WWE took ECW's strategy, it was too late for WCW, and they couldn't get "hardcore" as hoped for.

Fantastic point Armbar, and really good for clarity

 

[Via Armbar]

If I can recall where I had heard Russo say that I will post it for sure Tenta. I am almost positive that Russo had said that himself and I know for a fact it has been said by others on creative at the time. It becomes even more obvious by the fact that some ECW stars had came and performed on WWF television.

WCW had clearly overlooked how things were being booked by the opposing companies only because they had a lead at the time. Bad business if you ask me. Always know what your competition is up to or you run the risk of them sneaking up on you. Which is pretty much what had happened. ECW was something different and different was what the fans wanted at the time.

 

[Tenta]

If I can recall where I had heard Russo say that I will post it for sure Tenta. I am almost positive that Russo had said that himself and I know for a fact it has been said by others on creative at the time. It becomes even more obvious by the fact that some ECW stars had came and performed on WWF television.

Hell, if you even consider it, man, Steve Austin was an ECW talent, Paul Heyman would eventually work out a deal with Vince, Mick Foley would come on board; the more you look at it, The WWE was really investing itself into this ECW product that was stirring people around. At the least, I assume Russo saw one of the shows, because he lives close in the smarkiest part of the world, and tells Vince, "Hey, we need this."

Again, that isn't to take away from what Eric was doing on Nitro. Sure, his shows were getting edgy. But the edgy Raw was going to become is far more conducive to ECW. And it just doesn't seem like that much was copied from WCW, really

 

[Via Armbar]

As a solitary moment, you have to go with Hogan dropping the leg on Macho. This was an absolute shock and put the wheels in motion for WCW to become the toughest competition in WWF/E's history. Yes, Austin's speech laid the basis for Overrated Era, but at that time, it was just a random midcard guy cutting a promo after winning a tournament for midcarders. They were both necessary for the boom in the '90's, but Hogan is the better moment.

What makes the era overrated? I can see somewhat of a point seeing as how half of the discussion fro the IWC is based on how the Attitude Era was teh bests eva, but how did what Austin accomplished that night make the following years actually overrated? They sure as hell weren't overrated at the time seeing how successful it was. It's not like WCW had come from behind to shock the WWF by taking a lead; they had already had one. Austin took the WWF to a place it hadn't been in a decade and arguably beyond. The NWO did good for the company and the future of stables. They gave the WCW a quick jolt of energy and no doubt started stirring the pot but the WWF had created a star who's success had only been seen once before and saved an entire company.

 

[Tenta]

As a solitary moment, you have to go with Hogan dropping the leg on Macho. This was an absolute shock and put the wheels in motion for WCW to become the toughest competition in WWF/E's history. Yes, Austin's speech laid the basis for Overrated Era, but at that time, it was just a random midcard guy cutting a promo after winning a tournament for midcarders. They were both necessary for the boom in the '90's, but Hogan is the better moment.

Whoa, I didn't catch this initially. The logic was sound until I got to this moment. Yeah, The Attitude Era is what kept the WWE in business. Without the Attitude Era, there is no professional wrestling to speak of, at least not as we know it. WCW may still be around, but I doubt it, given the way the company was going. It would have continued to lose money as the merger between Time Warner and AOL got closer. I don't see how it can be overrated? Is it overrated because it kept the company alive, or overrated because business was at an all time high?

Was the in ring product always great? It had its moments of weakness, though I argue there was more good than bad. But you can;t argue that Attitude saved the company, Thrills

 

[Thriller Ant]

What makes the era overrated? I can see somewhat of a point seeing as how half of the discussion fro the IWC is based on how the Attitude Era was teh bests eva, but how did what Austin accomplished that night make the following years actually overrated? They sure as hell weren't overrated at the time seeing how successful it was. It's not like WCW had come from behind to shock the WWF by taking a lead; they had already had one. Austin took the WWF to a place it hadn't been in a decade and arguably beyond. The NWO did good for the company and the future of stables. They gave the WCW a quick jolt of energy and no doubt started stirring the pot but the WWF had created a star who's success had only been seen once before and saved an entire company.

Let me just say, I know that the Attitude Era is what gave the WWF the ability to succeed against the struggling WCW.

With that said, the Attitude Era isn't the Holy Land of wrestling like it's made out be. They were successful, yes, but at what price? Pro wrestling became known for ridiculous storylines and characters, and over-the-top violence, cursing and sex instead of the athletic ability and talents of the performers.

There was a lot of talent in the WWF during the AE, but most people don't remember the in-ring talent in the company. Instead, they remember Stone Cold flipping out Vince and spraying him with beer. The remember Mae Young and the hand. They remember Taker crucifying people.

As a fan who likes to think of himself as a fan of the in-ring product, I look at the Attitude Era as more of a great "sports entertainment" period than a great "wrestling" period.

 

[Tenta]

With that said, the Attitude Era isn't the Holy Land of wrestling like it's made out be. They were successful, yes, but at what price? Pro wrestling became known for ridiculous storylines and characters, and over-the-top violence, cursing and sex instead of the athletic ability and talents of the performers.

Right. Which is why after 2000, you have names like Benoit, Jericho, Angle, Lesnar and the like coming out, who proved they had the ability to put on great matches nightly. If it made wrestling all about sex and such, we'd satill be in the Attitude Era now. Wrestling eventually became about the wrestling, nothing was ever ruined. At least forever.

There was a lot of talent in the WWF during the AE, but most people don't remember the in-ring talent in the company. Instead, they remember Stone Cold flipping out Vince and spraying him with beer. The remember Mae Young and the hand. They remember Taker crucifying people.

I don't, really. I mean, Steve flipping people off, but it was entertaining man. Sure, everything wasn't entertaining, but at the least, the WWE went out of its way to provide a product that was new and edgy. There were still capable workers, as you alluded to, and they got their face time. The only person who didn't get as much time as he desired was Jeff Jarrett, because he wasn't worth a damn. Mick Foley's legacy is intact, so is the New Age Outlaws. The good workers were still around, man.

As a fan who likes to think of himself as a fan of the in-ring product, I look at the Attitude Era as more of a great "sports entertainment" period than a great "wrestling" period.

The wrestling was no worse than it is now, and that is the damn truth. All the attitude Era was make things more of an entertainment show. And it worked, hook line and sinker

 

[RiVaLGaMeR]

My vote would go to Hogans heel turn. It got the most fan reaction and it was by far the biggest shock anyone can remember. nWo was good business for WCW. Having Hogan the american warrior leading was a EXCELLENT example of how the purest of people can be turned. Hogan was the biggest star at his time, before the rock was all cool with it. It was all Hogan, you couldnt think of a better entertainer. When Austin became that guy he wasnt as big as Hogan at the time. But if you were to look DOWN the line, it would favor the birth of Stone Cold a wrestler with personality and pop. The nWo continued to play bad guys they were hardly ever faces. Now people still chant WHAT and stuff but no one really thinks of Hogan nWo compared to Hogan Hulkamania. When that music hit everything slowed down and you got excited you clinged to that TV as you watched him come out, It was by far the best entrance music of all time. 2nd would be rocks hollywood theme. The slow intro builds to the excitement. Sure Hogan lost the intro but it was still a good theme. So i would say at the times it would be nWo but currently Stone Cold.

 

[Thriller Ant]

Right. Which is why after 2000, you have names like Benoit, Jericho, Angle, Lesnar and the like coming out, who proved they had the ability to put on great matches nightly. If it made wrestling all about sex and such, we'd satill be in the Attitude Era now. Wrestling eventually became about the wrestling, nothing was ever ruined. At least forever.

We know that, but there are tons of people who still don't get that wrestling is about more than the excesses of the Attitude Era. Casual references to wrestling are almost always about Stone Cold or the Rock. While they were pretty good in the ring, neither of those guys got famous because they were putting on 5 star matches. The casual person's view of wrestling was changed forever, even though fans like us know that there is just as much, if not more entertainment value in a Benoit/Angle match than there is Stone Cold cussing out Vince.

I don't, really. I mean, Steve flipping people off, but it was entertaining man. Sure, everything wasn't entertaining, but at the least, the WWE went out of its way to provide a product that was new and edgy. There were still capable workers, as you alluded to, and they got their face time. The only person who didn't get as much time as he desired was Jeff Jarrett, because he wasn't worth a damn. Mick Foley's legacy is intact, so is the New Age Outlaws. The good workers were still around, man.

My problem isn't with a lack of talent, like we've both said, but rather with the focus not being on that talent. WWF had a ton of guys that could sleepwalk through a match and it would be a 3 star match, but instead, they focused on the entertainment aspect. Did it work? There is no way anyone could argue that it didn't. My issue is that the wrestling was put in the backseat in a wrestling company.

The wrestling was no worse than it is now, and that is the damn truth. All the attitude Era was make things more of an entertainment show. And it worked, hook line and sinker

And, I really want to make sure I get this across, I'm not saying it didn't work.

To me, the Attitude Era is almost like looking back on an invention. Let's use the cotton gin. When the cotton gin was invented, it revolutionized everything. Everyone who had it became more successful and it helped the cotton business as a whole. But now, looking back, that cotton gin really isn't that impressive as time has passed.

The AE is the same way. It revolutionized the pro wrestling industry and made it more successful. Looking back, however, I think it is clear that there are simple and obvious ways that it could/should have been improved on.

EDIT: I just realized we are kinda getting off topic. I'm more than happy to continue this debate, if you are worried about the thread getting derailed, we can move it into another thread.

 

[Tenta]

LULZ. Has there been a thread done about whether the Attitude Era is overrated? I'd do it, but I'm heading to sleep quite soon.

Anyway, you're right, business at hand. I think we can all agree that ECW may, actually did, influence the WWE I'd say more than the WCW did. After all, how many hardcore matches did you see in WCW at the time? I can only think of Benoit/Sullivan. While WWE was looking to ECW for help, this is a clear sign of that. It's Austin being allowed in front of the mic to speak his piece. I think it was this promo, and this promo alone that let Vince know he had a star on his hands, because as soon as that happened, the 3:16 shirts started to come out. And more people bought them. And more people bought them. And soon, it became the biggest thing in wrestling. That's when Vince made his decision to make Steve the face of the company.

All off that one promo. The promo to let Vince know he was the face of the company. And the WWE just wouldn't look back from there

 

[ilapierre]

Great post by via armbar..i think that Hogan's heel turn revolutionized wrestling more than Austin's speech but that Austin's overall (and individual) contribution to WWE as a wrestler in the following two years revolutionized wrestling more than anything. Hogan's heel turn was a bigger single moment than Austin's speech though as it forced WWE to get their shit together. Austin saved the WWE and created a direction for it. Hogan put WCW on the map and almost took down the WWE.

However, I argue that nothing Hogan or anyone could have done could have kept WCW on top of WWE for much longer by the time Steve Austin became World Champ. Once WWE got their shit together and put out watchable tv again, they easily took over the ratings. WCW was an alternative to pitiful programming and when the pitiful programming got good again the alternative was dumped. A similar situation would be if Dancing With the Stars started beating 8 year ratings champ American Idol for a year and a half straight in ratings. (DWTS actually did beat American Idol a few times this past winter). American Idol gets their shit together finally, and get back on top of the ratings. AI is more established, they are the big guy, they most often have the highest rating, and when their shit is together (unlike this year) they always have the highest ratings no matter what. Same thing goes in the WWE/WCW ratings war of a decade ago.

I really believe Ted Turner really just wanted to mess with Vince, hire a guy like Bischoff to throw all his money on whoever and whatever to compete with the big boys and at least temporarily make Vince his bitch. Anyway, my point was that yes the overemphasis on Hogan ultimately hindered WCW while the overemphasis on a guy like Austin who helped mold new huge stars saved the company and created a future for it. WWE would have still toppled WCW. But WCW could have continued existing, perhaps, if there wasn't so much focus on Hogan and the NWO. But they would not be winning the ratings, probably still not even competing. We, the fans, would simply have been able to watch a better final two years of WCW programming.

Ultimately, Turner Broadcasting gave up on WCW not because it wasn't making huge money or because its ratings were terrible (they were losing money successful or not although their ratings were still relatively high). Turner Broadcasting wanted to get wrestling out of their programming as early as the summer of 98 and purposely set up a number of behind the scenes obstacles to impede WCWs success so that the network could justify removing wrestling from its programming. WCW at its best was mainly short term thinking with no long terms plans. The goal before 1999 was to beat WWE in the present, it was not to beat WWE longterm and establish a viable future.

Ted and co. could have sold WCW to a private group like Fusient which could turn around and find another network to air WCW. But Ted wanted to instead sell to Vince for cheap and not Fusient. Keep in mind, Ted Turner is a member of the real life New World Order that the American political/billionaire elite like George Bush belongs to. Turner probably wanted the wrestling New World Order buried so not to bring any negative attention to the real life NWO. So instead of selling it co a private group that could continue the NWO, he sold WCW/NWO and all its rights to Vince, the only guy who would have any motivation to bury it.

So, saying that Hogan led to the demise of the WCW is somewhat true but it's a lot more complicated than that. Hogan was the only reason WCW beat WWE 82 weeks straight and Stone Cold's amazing character was the reason WWE regained top spot. WCW losing its streak had nothing to do with the overemphasis on Hogan. The overemphasis on Hogan carried the streak 82 weeks, and it was at that time in March 98 when the Hogan overemphasis shifted as Hogan for the first time in 82 weeks was not part of the World Title picture (now it was Sting and Savage). The overemphasis on Hogan however caused viewers to not be interested in a World Title scene once Hogan wasn't involved, and viewing shifted when the two guys in the title picture were not named Hogan. The overemphasis on Hogan and many of the older guys had a negative impact on 99/00 as there were a lot of young guys who were not built up properly from 96-99 who just did not look right in prominent roles once they were thurst into them. It wasn't just the overemphasis on Hogan that destroyed WCW, it was the overemphasis on already established old guys (who obviously brought in the high ratings). So in a way Hogan led to WCW's demise. But i believe the main reason WCW self destructed was internal politics within Turner (not just WCW) and the fact that Turner Broadcasting just did not want WCW wrestling to be successful or continue (the final WCW Nitro was March 26 2001---less than 6 months prior to 9/11). Turner had a lot of motivation to bury WCW wrestling whose success was founded on the NWO..(based on the real life New World Order he belonged to).

I just thought i'd add (just so everyone is clear) that WWE had been beating WCW in the Monday Night Ratings War almost every week since Wrestle Mania 14 (March 1998) when Stone Cold finally won the World Title for the first time. WWE did not begin beating WCW regularly in January 1999 when the Fingerpoke of Doom happened and when Mick Foley beat the Rock and Bischoff's plan to ridicule WWE somehow backfired. The fingerpoke of doom may have been when WCW began resembling a joke (i think Scott Hall's drunk matches a few months earlier was when WCW started resembling a joke). But WWE had been overpowering WCW for almost 9 months at that point in January 1999. If you don't believe me, go look up the ratings yourself online somewhere. Do not rely on WWE's video library/revisionist history for your distorted factual information. Vince and WWE have all the motivation in the world to distort facts, cover up WCW's other triumphs, and make the kiddie PG era fans think the NWO and Attitude Era was overrated and lame. Those of us adults who were there watching it know that this revisionist history of factual distortion is FAR from the truth. We loved what we watched and it was 10 times better than the programming we have now. If not 100 times better.

 

[CuddleBuns84]

This has a two way answer in my opinion. With the Hogan heel turn, you had an interesting angle and storyline. Not also that, no one saw that coming. Almost everyone thought he was coming in to save the day. Then Boom. The leg drop the shocked the world. WCW cashed in huge that night, with the start of one the greatest stables in the business. It also lead to the downfall of the company, because least development of new wrestlers, and just cashing in on free agents from the rival company. It made great television though. The nWo got tons of ratings, and the fans were torn apart from who to cheer for. It made great television.

The Austin Coronation didn't make the impact right off the bat. It took some time, but it rocked the industry. A new star was on the rise. It took a great main event with Shawn Michaels with Mike Tyson as the celebrity enforcer. It made such a huge impact, cause everyone the next day was all over that event. Then Austin vs. McMahon. Great storyline. It slowly chewed WCW and spit it out.

The effect of Austin and the Attitude era destroyed WCW. WCW never left the nWo. It never killed the nWo, it never survived the nWo. It grew into a more successful brand then WCW. But WCW didn't know how to walk away from it. In fact, if I recall... The fingerpoke of Doom. Flair and Hogan had some crummy matches. Hogan took some time off, then Hiatus, and anyone who made money on the show, sat out while the company died. No exit plan for the end of the nWo. Austin and the Attitude era launched so many careers it wasn't even funny.

 

[CorkscrewBackElbowDrop]

A Hulk Hogan heel turn would be equivalent to a Jesus Christ heel turn.

okay, that honestly is about the funniest, most true thing i've found so far on this forum

second i'm with austin on this, hulk's name was in stone, and he used his resources (popularity, babyfaceness etc.) to make a big moment

what austin had for resources was being pissed off and winning king of the ring, he took that and made a comparable moment to what hogan did with everything,
i find it like when nasa builds a spacecraft and then a few college grads in Arizona build a spaceship too for less money, it feels more impactful for the second one because its more revolutionary, thats my thoughts, although everyone prob disagrees with me

 

[Ruthless-RKO]

Hogan's heel turn by infinite!!

While Austins was good...as soon as Hogan returned, everyone was cheering and was thinking YES YES...but when his leg hit savage, the crowd felt betrayed...I mean this guy has the history...he was the biggest BABYFACE in sports entertainment!!!and yes he was slowly dying...but the return got him cheers..and what he did had everyone asking questions....

I remember the fans throwing anything they could get their hands on...and some fans wanted to jump in the ring as well...thats how betrayed they felt...

 

[Carpathian Florist]

When comparing Austin vs Hogan for this, I wonder if another route should be taken. This isn't a question I would be able to answer myself and I'm not sure if anyone else would know, but where did the fans come from?

Did WWF create their own fans or steal WCWs?

My point is that depending on how this can be answered will change the significance of the original question. If WWF's rising popularity stole the WCW fans, then obviously Hogan's influence was greater because this gave the WWF the chance to win back the fans they had lost to the competition along with the new fans that WCW had converted to their product.... however, if the influx of new fans watching the WWF were a product of the WWF and it's marketing then maybe Austin could be said to have had the greater influence....

Anyone have any ideas on this?

 

[finoj05]

It was a little of both I think, because I know fans who were only WWF fans and I know people that watched both.

Also, for those that are saying nWo (or WCW) never made any stars... uhhh... Goldberg, DDP, Scott Steiner and Buff Bagwell say hello. DDP's feud with Randy Savage, Hall, Nash and Hogan made him a household name. While Goldberg was a pretty big WCW star, his win over Hogan made him a household name. Not to mention Sting's rebirth as a character. Could have they made MORE stars? Absolutely. However, to say they just buried everybody and never put anybody over is just not true.