Women in the Men's Division: How can we make it work, and would you like to see it?

[The Doctor]

So, yesterday, I made a thread in the Wrestling Spam Zone featuring a fake spoiler for Wrestlemania that Beth Phoenix was going to be the 11th participant in the Money in the Bank ladder match. To my astonishment, quite a few people believed me and started talking about how they really wouldn't mind her in the match. Several people even said they wouldn't mind seeing her become the first Mrs. Money in the Bank and holding a major singles' title.

Several things went through my mind when I saw how well it went over. I'm going to focus on one thing in particular, and that is women in the men's division.

Basically:

Would you like to see a woman compete in the men's division?

If so, who would it be?

How would you make it work?

Personally, I have one particular thing I believe when I watch pro wrestling, and it is this:

In pro wrestling, EVERYTHING has the potential to succeed.

Obviously, there are exceptions to the rule, but I believe that any wrestler, any angle, anything can get over if done correctly. And I wholeheartedly believe it in this case as well.

The woman I would choose is obviously Beth Phoenix. Beth has the look, as she's way more muscular than the ladies, and she has the talent in the ring. I'm not a good judge on mic work, but she doesn't seem to be that bad there, either, but that's not all that important.

They need to start her small, though. She can start by battling through the women's division and kayfabe injuring several divas due to her toughness. Or perhaps she can be put in a match with a local male competitor as a punishment by the GM. Anyway, she somehow gets a match with a local jobber, which she wins decisively. After a few weeks or months of that, she moves to midcarders.

Basically, she would be given a slow monster heel push, with the only difference being that she's a woman. I believe it could be a very interesting experiment if done right, and possibly even work out very well. She could even get a midcard title reign (Though I doubt they would EVER let her anywhere near the WWEC or WHC). It would, in my opinion, make things a little more interesting by being something new. I know they tried it with Chyna, but I don't think that was ever meant to be a longterm thing, unlike what this would be.

I honestly don't see why this wouldn't work if handled correctly. As long as they give her the standard monster heel/face push and don't turn it into a lame comedy angle, I don't see why this should kill anyone's careers (as some of the doomsayers say it would).

What do you think?

 

[Dr. Stinger A. Zoidberg]

I do believe that a woman could work in the Men's division. However, only to a certain extent. I guess that requirement would be having the strength of a male and/or competing and beating every diva you face. I think that if that were to happen, we could see a female in the men's division however, only sparingly. Divas with tremendous amounts of strength are rare to come by, so as a reward, they should sometimes be allowed to compete in the men's division. Beth Phoenix is rare when it comes to divas. No other woman in the WWE could match her strength and potential. Remember though, we did see a diva be successful in the mens division in the past. Of course, Im talking about Chyna.

When Chyna went to the mens division, like you said, she started out small. She was just a part of DX, sort of like the enforcer role. After DX, she started getting involved with people like Eddie Guerrero, and Rhyno. After being involved with them, Just like Phoenix, the WWE decided to put her in the Royal Rumble. Where for a few brief minutes, she succeeded. After that, she ended up winning the Intercontinental Championship.

So it just goes to show that it is possible for a diva to be in the mens division. But, they have to start out small like Chyna did, and work their way up. I think Beth could have the success that Chyna did, However, the WWE wont do Woman/Men or Men/Men over a woman feuds anymore. And those Doc, were the key to Chyna's success.

 

[Chauncy Talon]

I really do not like watching intergender matches. It so cliche. Every 5 to 7 years we have to witness some female that beating up the males in a match. I do not mind seeing a female getting over on a wrestler, or vice versa, but I do not want them to be in a Male Division.

 

[martin]

If WWE were to have women integrate within the men's division (in my opinion they shouldn't, WWE have two women's titles and should keep their best females for those belts), I would rather see Natalya in the men's division as opposed to Beth. Natalya is not in the ring as often as Beth, being the valet of the Hart Dynasty and we have seen her interfere in the team's matches, having more interaction with the male wrestlers than Beth. From her valet role, Natalya could naturally move into more mixed matches with male opponents like Chyna in DX and the Corporation.

 

[acdcchic]

I think only one or two of the best divas in the division should face men because it would show how good the divas are/can be, and maybe, just maybe there might be an intercontinental title match with a woman once again. I think Beth is the only one right now in the WWE with the potential to face men, and it would give her a good push. I really hope it happens.

 

[Crippler CrossFace]

Doc, I can buy into the "anything can work in wrestling" thing. It makes sense. Since everything is just a matter of execution then I agree.

I would not mind seeing this. My only requirement is that the female wrestler be a wrestler who is a solid wrestler. Now I'm not expecting 5 star matches from them every single match but I would prefer that they be able to hold their own in the match and not need to be carried. I wouldn't want to see say Michelle McCool in the mens division cause that would just be pathetic. I just wouldn't want a watered down match from the woman just because she's a woman. I don't think this is an outlandish request as it would make for a credible run in the mens division.

I agree that the woman for the job would be Beth Phoenix. She could probably hold her own and put on a decent match with a lot of wrestlers.

Like I said thought as long as the match isn't noticeably watered down I could see it happen.

 

[Kliq]

The only woman I wouldn't be opposed to seeing wrestle a man is Beth Phoenix. She looks like she could beat the shit out of me, and probably most non-athletic men. That's something that has to happen for other women, though, is their look needs to be much more physical if they are going to compete with men. Chyna was great at this, Awesome Kong and Beth Phoenix are all women who can look legit in a fight with small to medium build guys. Would I like to see Maryse against the Miz for the U.S. title? No way. Would I like to see Beth Phoenix against the Miz for the U.S. title? Well, not only would I like to see it, I demand that it happen!

 

[Big Sexy]

I just don't see it happening, especially not in women's wrestling current state. The only time it has ever really been done was with Chyna and Awesome Kong. Even Awesome Kong only did it for a match or two. The only one to have success is Chyna. She was officially a two time IC champion, had a win over Jeff Jarrett, and also a nice feud with Chris Jericho.

The fact that there have been so many woman wrestlers and only one real crossover success should tell you something. Two things need to happen for this to even have a chance of working:

1. The female has to be dominant in the women's division
2. They have to have the type of build that makes them look they could legitimately compete with men.

If the woman doesn't have both of these qualities then her succeeding over legitimate competition would completely bury that competitor. Beth Phoenix beating Santino is one thing, but if she were to beat someone like Jack Swagger then that's a rap on his credibility.

There is no one currently on the WWE or TNA roster that could fit this role. Beth Phoenix may be the closest but she is still far from capable of making this succeed. She doesn't dominate the women's division by any means and she sure as hell does not have a big enough build to seem like a threat to the men.

 

[LigerBomb]

A 'Men's Division' is by definition a division that belongs to men; having a women in the "men's division" makes it no longer an actual division comprised of men. It's something else. Along the same lines I want to see men wrestle in the men's division not women, call me old fashioned.

Semantics aside, it's not a question of can it work or how, but rather, how to implement it properly without damaging the perception of the men and woman participating. Facts are men are superior athletes in just about every measurable aspect especially those that apply to (even fake) wrestling. For it to look credible or even somewhat believable it would have to rely on lots of fluke roll up pins, outside interference, distractions, an underestimation of the woman on the part of the male participants etc. etc. etc. and other "cheap" tactics to enable victory. And at the same time you have to really protect the guys so they don't look like chumps. People don't believe Santino can do a damn thing in the ring these days and he competes with other men...imagine if he, or others, started losing to a woman (and often). Also when you think about it this type of storyline doesn't prove that a woman can hang with the boys but rather that she can be lucky, crafty, or a bit of both. That said, if that's what you're trying to get over then go for it, but realized it's by and large a temporary storyline and eventually things go back to "normal" and outside of a few "never saw that before" moments (which, in fact, some of us have seen before) has not real purpose... But then again, as long as it's entertaining and the crowd doesn't shit on it maybe it can kill some time and be somewhat interesting filler.
On the prospect of a singles title run... same thing applies: Short, sweet, and try not to do more harm than good. Also don't do it at the expense of better ideas/talent with more long term potential and possible gain...

 

[QBall111]

But was the main title division ever singled out as the men division? Never was. But I don't see the move of having intergender matches. Especially for a World Title. If that was the case Awesome Kong would be signed before next WrestleMania and she'd probably be the one to end the Undertaker's streak and win a title at the same time.

 

[People's Champ]

I just don't see it happening, especially not in women's wrestling current state. The only time it has ever really been done was with Chyna and Awesome Kong. Even Awesome Kong only did it for a match or two. The only one to have success is Chyna. She was officially a two time IC champion, had a win over Jeff Jarrett, and also a nice feud with Chris Jericho.

The fact that there have been so many woman wrestlers and only one real crossover success should tell you something. Two things need to happen for this to even have a chance of working:

1. The female has to be dominant in the women's division
2. They have to have the type of build that makes them look they could legitimately compete with men.

If the woman doesn't have both of these qualities then her succeeding over legitimate competition would completely bury that competitor. Beth Phoenix beating Santino is one thing, but if she were to beat someone like Jack Swagger then that's a rap on his credibility.

There is no one currently on the WWE or TNA roster that could fit this role. Beth Phoenix may be the closest but she is still far from capable of making this succeed. She doesn't dominate the women's division by any means and she sure as hell does not have a big enough build to seem like a threat to the men.

I agree with you here. We talk about how certain guys can't be main eventers because they don't have the look, how much more harder would it be to find a woman with the build and look that could show they could compete with the men? I know we aren't talking about women in the main event, but still, how logical would that be?

And even if if their was, I wouldn't want to see it. I never liked seeing it done in the past and don't want to see it now. Keep the two divisions seperate because it can never be believable.

 

[QBall111]

I'm joking on the last post about Kong taking out the Undertaker's streak, but that'd be the only way I could take it seriously is if you bring in somebody who has never been in the E and establish themselves as someone who can hang with the men. Otherwise I don't think they'd be taken very serious. I'm not sure if Beth Phoenix would be taken serious, it'd be like giving David Arquette the World Heavyweight Title

 

[MEGAFAN420]

Beth has the size and strength to compete against ANY male in the WWE right now. Just like Chyna did in her heydey! I remember Chyna being a co-owner of the IC title with Chris Jericho back around 1999 or so. Trish could wrestle an intergender tag match, but could never hold her own with a title other than the womens' belt.
I would love to see Awesome Kong signed by the WWE. She could wrestle any man there right now and have a totally legit looking match with them. She wrestled Angle in TNA and destroyed Cody Deaner. She had the ability to sell a match with anyone. The Awesome Bomb is a sick finisher too!

 

[Fuu]

No Because what WWE sould do is what TNA did add more women titles instead of just two like world heavyweight womens champ or womens tag champions etc. just saying TNA's women division is better than WWE's add more women of all shapes and sizes vince youll make more money. yes because some women are big and buff..... beth pheonix and awsome kong. just think about it

 

[saint_edward]

nice idea, as you said, it's been done before with Chyna... and i think it could be done again with Beth, she's too strong for the women's division and if worked as she should be would dominate all comers... more likely in TNA though, i know Kong has gone but she could have gona against most of the X-Division at least, and Tara has always stood out as a good strong singles competitor, think she could give some of the X-Division a run for their money. Every now and again we get a woman who could easily hold her own against men on the roster, but for some reason we can see (keyfabe) violence eveywhere but women and men actually gping at it? the WWE apparently dont want us to see that anymore.

take TNA though, would love to see Tara call out some X-division characters over a few weeks and beat them all, maybe winning a short stint of X-Div gold, that would be awesome and lift her to stratospheric levels... but in the WWE i'd love to see Beth 'dating' the Intercontinental challenger, who gets injured by the (heel) champ before a PPV, Beth then takes their place at the PPV (to everyone's astonishment) and wins a clean pinfall victory, lifting Beth no end and making the intercontinental a championship that everyone wants to get hold of... just ideas really...

 

[Dagger Dias]

I wouldn't mind having divas compete in the male divisions because it would be something different. However, it highly depends on which diva does this. Most of them would never be taken seriously if they competed against male wrestlers. Just about every diva, even Jillian, would be believable in a victory against someone like Santino.... but move it up further and have them compete for the US/IC titles, and there goes the believability of the vast majority of the divas getting a victory. Process of elimination would knock it down to only Beth Phoenix, Mickie James, and Natalya.

I can see Beth, Mickie, and maybe Natalya having a believable run in the male midcard if they are built up properly. However, anything beyond that would be impossible in terms of believability for any diva except MAYBE Beth.... and even in her case, she would have to be built up for MONTHS by squashing the other divas, an endless string of male jobbers, then moving on to legit matches against the guys.... that's just to get her to be believable as a midcard champion.

I would like to see something like this happen someday because it could be history-making and cool, but WWE run a massive risk of screwing up the whole angle and potentially ruining that divas career, she would forever be known as the girl who failed at being as good as the guys. However, if it did work it could elevate her further in the female division after she gets moved back down and that sets up a very dominant run with the Womens or Divas title for her, whoever it is. Going by the current roster of divas it would absolutely have to be Beth Phoenix, and she would have be built up for months, maybe even a whole semester, before she'd be believable enough for an angle like this.

In the long run I don't think it could work as anything beyond just an angle to get a dominant diva more over because eventually the fans might turn on her and she'd have to get demoted back to the female division. It could be something very interesting for a semester or so if the buildup is done properly and they pick the right woman for such an angle.

 

[Big Sexy]

I really don't see how people think Beth Phoenix could make this work. Just because she is the biggest of the current divas it doesn't automatically make her a legitimate contender against the men. She is listed at 5'7 150 pounds. That is only one inch taller and 15 pounds lighter the WWE's current smallest wrestler Rey Mysterio.

Now before you say "well Mysterio is a borderline main eventer so why can't Beth Phoenix be at least able to compete with the men," let me explain something. The reason Mysterio is able to compete with the bigger superstars is because of his style. He is a high flier. A guy that relies on speed, quickness, and taking chances to compete. Beth Phoenix is a power wrestler. That works fine against the women but it wouldn't fly with the men.

Saying Beth Phoenix could compete with the men would be like saying that Mysterio could do the same if he switched his style up and became more of a power guy. It is a completely ludicrous statement. She can go out and beat guys like Santino and Chavo all she wants but it would be beyond stupid to have her compete with and beat guys like Jack Swagger, MVP, or Kozlov.

 

[The Doctor]

You see, Big Sexy, it's not how big you ARE, but how big you LOOK. Look at Taz or Kurt Angle for good examples. They were not tall, but they looked thick and got over through being booked well. Beth Phoenix LOOKS like she has big muscles and can kick some ass. If booked well, it could work.

 

[Big Sexy]

You see, Big Sexy, it's not how big you ARE, but how big you LOOK. Look at Taz or Kurt Angle for good examples. They were not tall, but they looked thick and got over through being booked well. Beth Phoenix LOOKS like she has big muscles and can kick some ass. If booked well, it could work.

Compared to the other divas in the women's division, yes she does look bigger. Compared to any of the male wrestlers, she looks small as fuck. Even next to Santino when they had their storyline she looked small. You're saying Beth could compete with the men, but there is no way she could be seen as a legitimate competitor at that level without significantly bringing down someone else's credibility.

 

[Tastycles]

It'll never work. Wrestling sells itself on the premise of the suspension of disbelief. You can believe that a lighter, faster man can beat a bigger competitor because it happens in legitimate sports all the time. Evander Holyfield is the best example of this in the world of boxing, but there are plenty. There's no sport were women and men compete against each other physically, so it looks weird and people don't buy into it. The only time it does work is when the woman is considerably bigger than the man, e.g. Chyna and Chris Jericho, but even in those circumstances, I still don't think a predominantly male audience would get behind a woman beating men up, it's just not in male nature. So, no, I don't ever see it happening, working, and to be perfectly honest, I've never seen a female wrestler I think could pull it off since Chyna, nor has there been anyone I particularly want to see more of.

 

[shattered dreams]

Beth Phoenix is alright but I am glad the realist are coming out now. Chyna was billed at 5'10 180 pounds (although she was not that tall). About the only place I could see something like this working would be a really strong luchador style female in tna's x division. I still doubt that would happen, especially since male-female violence is still a big spike no-no as far as I know. It would be cool though if they could find someone big enough in that style to come out and reveal themself as suicide.

 

[Tenta]

Well, to some extent, it already has worked before. In 1999, Chyna was one of the biggest stars in the WWE. She had appeared in the KoTR tournament, the Royal Rumble, and won an important Men's heavyweight Champion. At any point, anyone can make it in professional wrestling right now, and be a star. If Vince McMahon wanted to, he could make a midget world champion right now. If he really desired, he could bring back Doink the Clown, and have him headline Wrestlemania.

But damn it, he'd better push the living daylights out of that person, and make the woman believable. Chyna was so great because she could probably kick the living Hell out of most of the men's locker room, and looked the part. Beth Phoenix, I'm just not really seeing that. Sge's muscular for sure, but she's nowhere near as ripped as Chyna used to be. To me, she simply looks like a case of Chyna-lite, and anything less than the actual Chyna just wouldn't be believable to the fans. The best thing I could think of off the top of my head is probably Awesome Kong, as she totally has the build and the moveset. But she'd better be able to grab the fan's interest, and sell tickets. Sure, a woman can do it, but it can only be done through one manner; build that woman to hell, give her enough creatine so that she at least looks more muscular than Evan Bourne, and make sure she's actually a competant wrestler.