WWE Region, Philadelphia Subregion, First Round: (11)Stan Hansen vs. (22)Arn Anderson

[klunderbunker]

This is a first round match in the WWE Region, Philadelphia Subregion. It is a standard one on one match. It will be held at Wells Fargo Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

#11. Stan Hansen

Vs.

#22. Arn Anderson

​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Just as with Misawa, Hansen will win this bout purely on star power and status in Japan. Hansen arguably the most successful foreign wrestler in Japanese wrestling history and is revered on a level similar to Baba & Inoki.

Arn Anderson was a great wrestler who, in my eyes, could have been a credible World Champion. He's one of the best to have never been a World Champion in my eyes. He had the goods on the mic and in the ring both as a singles and tag team wrestler.

At the end of the day though, Hansen takes this one. Hansen made it to the main event level in multiple organizations while Anderson, as much as I enjoyed him, was strictly a career long mid-carder who played second banana to Ric Flair.

I think this would be an entertaining match. Hansen is the better brawler while Anderson was the better technician. When it's all said and done though, Hansen is someone who defeated wrestling legends in World Championship matches while Double A never really even got close.

 

[justtxyank]

As I believe I can make an argument for Stan Hansen as one of the 10 best workers ever, he will take this. It's unfortunate for Arn that he got slotted where he did. He's good enough to move on, but not against a guy like Hansen. Story of Arn's career I guess. Was always good enough to be near the top but there was always someone that was just...well...better.

Hansen is an absolute monster and it's going to be very sad to see him get knocked out of this thing in an early contest because people just don't know how good he was and how over he was.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Hansen should win this match.

All in all Hansen did much more and on top of it is one of my all time favorites, top ten easy. One the most successful Gaijin wrestlers in Japan and who could forget his memorable appearance in the hit movie No Holds Barred calling stooges out for their "Tayney wangers". I also loved how his matches were so stiff it gave you the feeling Stan would bludgeon his opponent to death with his stiffness and on top of that he had a really good mind for wrestling both on screen and behind the scenes. He had some high profile matches and defeated some high profile performers

Arn I love ya, I always felt you could have been a permanent main eventer but unfortunately it wasn't in the cards for him. He certainly deserves more praise than Flairs second hand man but sadly that's how a lot of fans will remember him.

Arn's awesome but I can't go against Hansen here. LARIATO!

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Stan Hansen, Ric Flair, Arn Anderson, Sting, Tully Blanchard.

These are my personal favorite wrestlers in no particular order, and Tully's going down to Andre.

I'll give this one to Hansen because AA has a tough time dealing with tough guys. Examples are him dealing with the Road Warriors, Demolition, and Dusty Rhodes. Anderson would need assistance from the Horsemen to even get a two and a half on Hansen, and that speaks volumes on how tough the Lariat really was.

It'll be a tough, hard fought match... that sees Hansen winning in about 15 minutes with LARIAT-OOOHHHHHH!

Hansen gets this one.

 

[LSN80]

Much of Hansen's success came in Japan, but that doesn't devalue his accomplishments. He's the only man to pin Giant Baba and Antonio Inoki, Japan's two biggest stars at the time, in championship matches. Known for his incredibly stiff style, breaking Bruno Sanmartino's neck, and knocking Vader's eye completely out of socket. I believe he could easily match and overpower Double-A in a brawl, which this would largely be.

Hansen also competed briefly in WCW, where he ended Lex Luger's historic, almost 2 year, title reign. He was incredibly successful both in tag team competition and in the single's ranks, while most of Arn's success was in the tag team ranks. Yes, he won several US championships, but most of his success came alongside Tully. Since Tully's getting destroyed by Andre, I doubt he'ld be much help here.

Two of my favorite old-school wrestlers in the first round, but Ive always preferred Hansen. He was the bigger star globally and a main event guy. Anderson, for all his success and fame in the Horseman, was firmly entrenched in the mid-card or Flair's enforcer. That simply wouldn't get it done against the likes of Hansen, who advances with the Lariat.

 

[PsychoBlack]

I give this one to Hansen just on the fact that Arn was not even half as successful as him. Arn was a tag specialist and a mid carder for his entire career, a damn good one but still he was just that. Hansen was the man in Japan winning the triple crown world title three times and along with winning the AWA title from Nick Bockwinkel. Stan outclasses Arn here.

 

[8thwotwATG]

Stan Hansen handles AA here without much effort...Hansen was a God in Japan, the AWA champion, and was the man who nearly ended Sammartino's career..I feel that Hansen was also very underrated as an actual technical wrestler, in that, while he wasn't a Backlund or a Thesz , he was better than most individuals ever gave him credit for being..Anderson was a sure hand in the ring, and could work the stick better than most also, but he was never quite as over, or as talented as Hansen...A rough, close brawl ends with Hansen victorious, hitting a Lariat for the win. Hansen moves on.

 

[Tastycles]

The point of professional wrestling is to have fake fights and have people interested in it. Hansen succeeds at the last, but fails miserably at the first. Hitting someone legitimately in the face with a lariat or whatever isn't good, it's reckless. This competition is to find the best wrestler, not the person who hits the hardest, and the winner has to be Arn Anderson, a man who wrestled good matches.

 

[Bernkastel]

The point of professional wrestling is to have fake fights and have people interested in it. Hansen succeeds at the last, but fails miserably at the first. Hitting someone legitimately in the face with a lariat or whatever isn't good, it's reckless. This competition is to find the best wrestler, not the person who hits the hardest, and the winner has to be Arn Anderson, a man who wrestled good matches.

The better wrestler also draws by either garnering interest, and money, as a face or heel. Hansen was head and shoulders above Anderson at doing this, and thus he should win. Who cares if he was stiff; Lou Thesz and Bruno were also stiff - so lets vote them out first round too.

Don't be ridiculous. Vote Hansen.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Damn, I hate this - I adore Arn on a level with Fit but it's incredibly unfair for him being in this tournament. His job in wrestling wasn't defeating headliners himself, it was ensuring that Ric did either by running interference or by roughing them up in matches he ultimately lost.

Stan Hansen didn't need an enforcer to soften his opponents up, he was more than capable of doing it himself.

The AWA World Heavyweight Championship coupled with ending Lex Luger's record length NWA US Championship reign trumps Arn's 4 TV Title reigns... and that's before you take into account Japan!

Whether I like it or not, the Lariat is just too forceful for the Enforcer.

 

[Tastycles]

The better wrestler also draws by either garnering interest, and money, as a face or heel. Hansen was head and shoulders above Anderson at doing this, and thus he should win. Who cares if he was stiff; Lou Thesz and Bruno were also stiff - so lets vote them out first round too.

Don't be ridiculous. Vote Hansen.

Lou Thesz and Bruno Sammartino didn't endanger their opponents or give them ridiculous injuries. Hansen did. The point of a wrestling company is to draw money, something that neither of these men has ever done significantly in the United States, where this match takes place. The way a company draws money is by having a top guy, several opponents for the top guy and then lesser guys for people to face.

The more people you have healthy on the roster, the better. What Hansen would give you is little monetary gain, and a fuckload of injuries. What Anderson gives you is dependability and consistency.

Who would I wish to reward in my company? The one who does what he is supposed to do. Vote Anderson,.

 

[Bernkastel]

Lou Thesz and Bruno Sammartino didn't endanger their opponents or give them ridiculous injuries. Hansen did. The point of a wrestling company is to draw money, something that neither of these men has ever done significantly in the United States, where this match takes place. The way a company draws money is by having a top guy, several opponents for the top guy and then lesser guys for people to face.

The more people you have healthy on the roster, the better. What Hansen would give you is little monetary gain, and a fuckload of injuries. What Anderson gives you is dependability and consistency.

Who would I wish to reward in my company? The one who does what he is supposed to do. Vote Anderson,.

Judging someone based on non kayfabe events like injuring opponents is a terrible, piss poor argument. Based on that I could say that Owen deserves to go out first round for breaking Austin's neck, Austin deserves to go out for beating his wife in a drunken rage, and Benoit shouldn't have been in this tournament at all.

I was under the impression that the city was just as subjective as the region, and the point of all that is to vote the wrestler that is more likely to win a one off match - not a series of matches, meaning they aren't working a feud or an entire roster - with each other.

Maybe I should take region into account since you're taking city. What would the WWE do in a one off match between Anderson and Hanson? Who would they book to be the winner... Anderson, who'd make them some money being a member of the Horsemen, or Hanson, who'd make them even more money by being a multiple time AWA champion and a massive draw in Japan - so much so that it would have brought interest to their product and company when fans of Hanson's from overseas bought the show?

The answer is obviously Hansen.

 

[The Brain]

We all love Arn Anderson but he is overmatched here. Hansen is bigger, stronger, and just flat out tougher. Anderson is a good opponent and will deliver a solid match but he's going down courtesy of the lariat.

 

[HBsam31]

As others have said, Hansen's success came mostly in Japan, but in this case it doesn't matter. Anderson who is one of my favorites was a career mid card guy. Hansen will win this one just on star power alone.

 

[Tastycles]

Judging someone based on non kayfabe events like injuring opponents is a terrible, piss poor argument. Based on that I could say that Owen deserves to go out first round for breaking Austin's neck, Austin deserves to go out for beating his wife in a drunken rage, and Benoit shouldn't have been in this tournament at all.

You're missing the point entirely. Owen and Austin was an accident, but it probably assists my point. Do you think Owen Hart would have remained in the WWE if he had made a habit of it? No. I'm talking about in ring incidents in a wrestling tournament. The private lives of Austin and Benoit are completely irrelevant, but you better not be part of the HHH-only-wins-because-of-the-missus brigade later on. The point of the tournament is to find the best professional wrestler. Somebody who regularly injures their opponents because they can't do their job properly is a poor professional wrestler.

I was under the impression that the city was just as subjective as the region, and the point of all that is to vote the wrestler that is more likely to win a one off match - not a series of matches, meaning they aren't working a feud or an entire roster - with each other.

What's the point in having the cities and stipulations if you don't take them into account. If you go to the ECW thread, that's pretty much all people do.

Maybe I should take region into account since you're taking city. What would the WWE do in a one off match between Anderson and Hanson? Who would they book to be the winner... Anderson, who'd make them some money being a member of the Horsemen, or Hanson, who'd make them even more money by being a multiple time AWA champion and a massive draw in Japan - so much so that it would have brought interest to their product and company when fans of Hanson's from overseas bought the show?

People from Japan don't buy WWE events. They watch their own. If Hansen's successes had been in Europe or Latin America, you'd have a point, but they weren't. The fact is, more laypeople would be aware of Arn Anderson, because he was a big part of wrestling in North America in a popular time.

How many wrestlers who are big in Japan has the WWE booked to look good? The Executioner? No. Steve Williams? No. Lord Tensai? No. Vader? Not really.

I honestly can't think of a single wrestler who has come from Japanese popularity to the WWE and succeeded. Vader was the pushed the most, but that didn't last long and he'd been the WCW world champion recently anyhow!

 

[Bernkastel]

You're missing the point entirely. Owen and Austin was an accident, but it probably assists my point. Do you think Owen Hart would have remained in the WWE if he had made a habit of it? No. I'm talking about in ring incidents in a wrestling tournament. The private lives of Austin and Benoit are completely irrelevant, but you better not be part of the HHH-only-wins-because-of-the-missus brigade later on. The point of the tournament is to find the best professional wrestler. Somebody who regularly injures their opponents because they can't do their job properly is a poor professional wrestler.

So Stan Hansen seriously injures one person, on accident, and suddenly he's a piss poor wrestler? Who else did he injure severely? I've researched and I can't find anyone other than Bruno. Working stiff is not a recipe for legitimately hurting someone. And if this is your best argument for why Hansen loses "cuz he hurtz people in kayfabe" it's pretty poor.

What's the point in having the cities and stipulations if you don't take them into account. If you go to the ECW thread, that's pretty much all people do.

Because it makes things harder to dissect. You have X wrestler that never loses in the States, and Y wrestler that never loses in Mexico. X wrestles Y in America and wins even though Y had a more lucrative career and was the better wrestler from an objective standpoint. Yours sounds biased and unrealistic from both a business standpoint, and from the standpoint of choosing the better wrestler to win a one off match.

Taking out the "home field" advantage eliminates all that "this guy wins in this country because the other guy never worked there" bullcrap.

People from Japan don't buy WWE events. They watch their own. If Hansen's successes had been in Europe or Latin America, you'd have a point, but they weren't. The fact is, more laypeople would be aware of Arn Anderson, because he was a big part of wrestling in North America in a popular time.

And your proof of that outrageously dumb claim is where? WWE has toured Japan - they have a big fan base there - WWE's programming is available for them to watch. It's not realistic to say the Japanese don't buy the PPV's.

How many wrestlers who are big in Japan has the WWE booked to look good? The Executioner? No. Steve Williams? No. Lord Tensai? No. Vader? Not really.

You are speaking about WWE booking talent contracted exclusively to them, not collaborating with another promotion to book two talents in a hypothetical one off match.

I honestly can't think of a single wrestler who has come from Japanese popularity to the WWE and succeeded. Vader was the pushed the most, but that didn't last long and he'd been the WCW world champion recently anyhow!

Er... because the booking styles are different thanks in part to the different cultures that want to watch different products. And not every foreigner that goes to Japan is successful either.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

You're missing the point entirely. Owen and Austin was an accident, but it probably assists my point. Do you think Owen Hart would have remained in the WWE if he had made a habit of it? No. I'm talking about in ring incidents in a wrestling tournament. The private lives of Austin and Benoit are completely irrelevant, but you better not be part of the HHH-only-wins-because-of-the-missus brigade later on. The point of the tournament is to find the best professional wrestler. Somebody who regularly injures their opponents because they can't do their job properly is a poor professional wrestler.

If Hansan could not do his job properly then why has every major wrestling organization at one point or another wanted him. He was a big star in the WWWF when he broke Sammartino's neck. He was a NWA tag champ with Ole Anderson. He challenged Backland for the title. He won the AWA world title and the US Title. He was a big star in both NJPW and AJPW.

And if he was dangerous in the ring then why did such stars as Sammartino( who trusted Hansan enough to get back in the ring with him for the rematch with his neck still broke ), Rhodes, Funk, Inoki, Baba, Lugar, Vader, Andre, Martel, Slaughter, Bockwinkel, Henning and Hulk Hogan wrestle him.

And he did not regularly injure opponents. The Sammartino injury wasn't even from being stiff, it was a botched bodyslam. The Vader injury was the only real one from Hansan working too stiff and if you watch the match BOTH wrestlers were working stiff. That was the style in Japan.

What's the point in having the cities and stipulations if you don't take them into account. If you go to the ECW thread, that's pretty much all people do.

Klunderbunker has said that regions and cities do not matter. He uses them just to order the tournament easier. A WWE wrestler should have no advantage in the WWE region.

The only reason people mention the ECW region is because it is ECW rules, or hardcore matches. That is the only region someone could argue matters.

People from Japan don't buy WWE events. They watch their own. If Hansen's successes had been in Europe or Latin America, you'd have a point, but they weren't. The fact is, more laypeople would be aware of Arn Anderson, because he was a big part of wrestling in North America in a popular time.

How many wrestlers who are big in Japan has the WWE booked to look good? The Executioner? No. Steve Williams? No. Lord Tensai? No. Vader? Not really.

I honestly can't think of a single wrestler who has come from Japanese popularity to the WWE and succeeded. Vader was the pushed the most, but that didn't last long and he'd been the WCW world champion recently anyhow!

But Hansan was big in the WWE, in the 70s and early 80s. And he was big in the NWA. And he was big in the AWA. He was therefore big in all three major companies in the US. Add his dominance of Japan and sadly Anderson does not have a chance.

 

[Tastycles]

So Stan Hansen seriously injures one person, on accident, and suddenly he's a piss poor wrestler? Who else did he injure severely? I've researched and I can't find anyone other than Bruno. Working stiff is not a recipe for legitimately hurting someone. And if this is your best argument for why Hansen loses "cuz he hurtz people in kayfabe" it's pretty poor.

Given that his autobiography is essentially a 400 page excuse for why he injured x and y at a specific time and place, I wouldn't have to look very far. There are chapter headings about him injuring Kobashi and Austin Idol, and the content by all accounts is much of the same, though I have only read second hand descriptions of the book. I don't know how hard you've researched but by literally typing "Stan Hansen injured" into google, you get a video of him popping Vader's eye out of his socket as the first result.

Because it makes things harder to dissect. You have X wrestler that never loses in the States, and Y wrestler that never loses in Mexico. X wrestles Y in America and wins even though Y had a more lucrative career and was the better wrestler from an objective standpoint. Yours sounds biased and unrealistic from both a business standpoint, and from the standpoint of choosing the better wrestler to win a one off match.

Taking out the "home field" advantage eliminates all that "this guy wins in this country because the other guy never worked there" bullcrap.

I'm happy to ignore where it is, the fact is, Hansen was over in Japan because he was stiff. Nobody stiff gets over anywhere else, because it's not what the people want. Hansen's entire US experience involved him having one feud with Sammartino, in which he injured the World Champion to the point that the WWWF struggled without him, then completely unprofessionally refusing to drop the AWA title to Bockwinkel after a brief run there. Hansen is only over in Japan. Anderson has been over everywhere he's wrestled.

And your proof of that outrageously dumb claim is where? WWE has toured Japan - they have a big fan base there - WWE's programming is available for them to watch. It's not realistic to say the Japanese don't buy the PPV's.

http://corporate.wwe.com/documents/PressRelease-Q22012-FINAL_000.pdf

Europe has a population of 300,000,000. All of Asia put together has a population of 4 billion, including Japan. Yet it makes three times less in Asia than it does in Europe. Even if all the Asian revenue was in Japan, which given the WWE pushes its product heavily in India and the Philippines, seems unlikely, it would still not be a market likely to influence the outcome of matches. You can see that for yourself.

Look at people like Wade Barrett and William Regal - they are given decent pushes because their market matters. Ditto Mysterio and Del Rio. How well do the Japanese guys do? The only Japanese guy that a modern WWE has pushed was a fat guy from Samoa.

You are speaking about WWE booking talent contracted exclusively to them, not collaborating with another promotion to book two talents in a hypothetical one off match.

Ok, then when has the WWE ever booked an American from a foreign promotion well as part of a cross brand thing? Mil Mascaras came in on deals like that in the 70s and beat the world champion, so it's not as if they don't mind booking outsiders strongly.

Er... because the booking styles are different thanks in part to the different cultures that want to watch different products. And not every foreigner that goes to Japan is successful either.

Right. Exactly, and Hansen is the sort of wrestler that only gets over in that kind of culture. This match and tournament isn't being held there. So nobody would book him to win. That shouldn't be hard to follow.

If Hansan could not do his job properly then why has every major wrestling organization at one point or another wanted him. He was a big star in the WWWF when he broke Sammartino's neck. He was a NWA tag champ with Ole Anderson. He challenged Backland for the title. He won the AWA world title and the US Title. He was a big star in both NJPW and AJPW.

No he wasn't a big star. He was one of the many who passed through. He was such a big star, that Vince McMahon Sr. had to rush Sammartino back after less than two months so the company didn't go under.

And if he was dangerous in the ring then why did such stars as Sammartino( who trusted Hansan enough to get back in the ring with him for the rematch with his neck still broke ), Rhodes, Funk, Inoki, Baba, Lugar, Vader, Andre, Martel, Slaughter, Bockwinkel, Henning and Hulk Hogan wrestle him.

Most of those wrestled in Japan, somewhere renowned for stiff wrestling. No American promoters would trust him to carry the torch, because he'd injure everyone. The only promotion where he got a long spell was AWA, and he fucked them over, because like his mate Bruiser Brody, he was a stiff, unprofessional waste of space that savvy American promoters didn't concern themselves with.

And he did not regularly injure opponents. The Sammartino injury wasn't even from being stiff, it was a botched bodyslam. The Vader injury was the only real one from Hansan working too stiff and if you watch the match BOTH wrestlers were working stiff. That was the style in Japan.

Yes he did. As I said, go to his autobiography, read it, or even read a review of it, and you'll see my point.

As for the Style? It's the only think Hansen is good at. This match is not in Japan.

Klunderbunker has said that regions and cities do not matter. He uses them just to order the tournament easier. A WWE wrestler should have no advantage in the WWE region.

No, but a wrestler who is only good in Japan should not do well somewhere that is not Japan.

The only reason people mention the ECW region is because it is ECW rules, or hardcore matches. That is the only region someone could argue matters.

For the last time, the relevant point isn't that this is in the WWE, it's that it isn't Japan.

But Hansan was big in the WWE, in the 70s and early 80s. And he was big in the NWA. And he was big in the AWA. He was therefore big in all three major companies in the US. Add his dominance of Japan and sadly Anderson does not have a chance.

He was big in the AWA when it was dying on it's arse. He was Sammartino's opponent of the month in WWWF and as for being big in the NWA? Puh-leese. He won the US title for a month to help Lex Luger get over.

 

[Bernkastel]

Given that his autobiography is essentially a 400 page excuse for why he injured x and y at a specific time and place, I wouldn't have to look very far. There are chapter headings about him injuring Kobashi and Austin Idol, and the content by all accounts is much of the same, though I have only read second hand descriptions of the book. I don't know how hard you've researched but by literally typing "Stan Hansen injured" into google, you get a video of him popping Vader's eye out of his socket as the first result.

Are you sure he wasn't talking kayfabe? I read the same synopsis and descriptions you did. There is a match where Hansen supposedly injures Kobashi's ribs at the beginning of a match, yet they wrestle for 25 minutes afterwards. He doesn't really sound very "injured" to me.

I'm happy to ignore where it is, the fact is, Hansen was over in Japan because he was stiff. Nobody stiff gets over anywhere else, because it's not what the people want.

New Japan is a promotion that puts emphasis on the strong style and treats pro wrestling more like a sport, which less emphasis on things like story lines. All Japan is the opposite.

You are speaking purely about American audiences, and you're right... however Japanese fans want to see something different, and we can't discredit that.

Hansen's entire US experience involved him having one feud with Sammartino, in which he injured the World Champion to the point that the WWWF struggled without him, then completely unprofessionally refusing to drop the AWA title to Bockwinkel after a brief run there. Hansen is only over in Japan. Anderson has been over everywhere he's wrestled.

But was Anderson as "over" in the States as Hanson was in Japan? No, he wasn't. That's the point of all this. You can try and discredit Hansen all you want for being a "Japanese guy" but at the end of it all he was far more effective as a wrestler, a better heel, and more beloved amongst his fans. That's why he goes over.

Europe has a population of 300,000,000. All of Asia put together has a population of 4 billion, including Japan. Yet it makes three times less in Asia than it does in Europe. Even if all the Asian revenue was in Japan, which given the WWE pushes its product heavily in India and the Philippines, seems unlikely, it would still not be a market likely to influence the outcome of matches. You can see that for yourself.

But WWE doesn't tour Asia as much as they do Europe, though. They just had their first tour of China not too long ago. That's to be expected. But at the sane time you are speaking purely in terms of talent contracted solely by WWE. If this was a collaboration match between two promotions set in a neutral area which all fans had hypothetical access, then yes we'd see allot more involvement from the Japanese fans.

Ok, then when has the WWE ever booked an American from a foreign promotion well as part of a cross brand thing? Mil Mascaras came in on deals like that in the 70s and beat the world champion, so it's not as if they don't mind booking outsiders strongly.

But Mil wasn't under contract with them, they just had an agreement... which is what this match with Hansen and Anderson would be. Hansen would agree to either WWE or NWA's terms and Anderson would agree to New Japan or All Japan's terms.

Right. Exactly, and Hansen is the sort of wrestler that only gets over in that kind of culture. This match and tournament isn't being held there. So nobody would book him to win. That shouldn't be hard to follow.

It should be held in a neutral space, that way we can look at these two different wrestlers and their careers objectively without worrying about "X goes over Y here because Y didn't work there even though Y was a better wrestler than X." Otherwise what's the point of even having international wrestlers in this thing if you can just fall back on that?

Most of those wrestled in Japan, somewhere renowned for stiff wrestling. No American promoters would trust him to carry the torch, because he'd injure everyone. The only promotion where he got a long spell was AWA, and he fucked them over, because like his mate Bruiser Brody, he was a stiff, unprofessional waste of space that savvy American promoters didn't concern themselves with.

Wrestlers get injured all the time, no matter what style they use. There are at least 3 or 4 wrestlers out with injuries in the WWE every year, and they are - supposedly - the safest company. So don't give me that strong style leads to more injuries nonsense.

Even if Hansen was a bit more stiff than he needed to be, and a bit more unprofessional than most that should stop him from going over Anderson why? He was the better pro wrestler; he should move on.

As for the Style? It's the only think Hansen is good at. This match is not in Japan.

Hansen worked both New Japan and All Japan, All Japan is more like WWE where they have distinct characters and story lines. Hansen was still able to be massively over. Working stiff is just a style, like brawling, or power, or technical, or high risk.

It's as if you are trying to say that Hansen couldn't get over in a promotion formated like the NWA or WWE... which is wrong.

No, but a wrestler who is only good in Japan should not do well somewhere that is not Japan.

And for the purpose of this tournament, the location should really be neutral; otherwise, we can't look at this objectively... like you aren't doing.

For the last time, the relevant point isn't that this is in the WWE, it's that it isn't Japan.

My understanding is that since the regions are just for show, and are for seeding purposes only, then the cities should be too. Your entire argument rests on the fact that X had success here and Y didn't, and since the "match" is here, X auto wins even though Y was a better wrestler.

In a neutral setting, Hansen would be booked over Anderson every time, and you know that.

 

[Tastycles]

Are you sure he wasn't talking kayfabe? I read the same synopsis and descriptions you did. There is a match where Hansen supposedly injures Kobashi's ribs at the beginning of a match, yet they wrestle for 25 minutes afterwards. He doesn't really sound very "injured" to me.

Yes. It's a book where he discusses his career. It is not that match that he is discussing. Equally, when Vader's eye comes out of his head, that is also not kayfabe.

New Japan is a promotion that puts emphasis on the strong style and treats pro wrestling more like a sport, which less emphasis on things like story lines. All Japan is the opposite.

You are speaking purely about American audiences, and you're right... however Japanese fans want to see something different, and we can't discredit that.

No, but Japanese fans make up a fraction of the wrestling audience. What is being increasingly obvious is that I am saying Hansen's only over in one market, and that in a neutral setting, with a smorgasbord of fans, his style wouldn't be well received. You seem to think that I'm arguing that because it's in the USA, Anderson would win. I'm not, I'm saying that because it's not in Japan, Hansen wouldn't.

But was Anderson as "over" in the States as Hanson was in Japan? No, he wasn't. That's the point of all this. You can try and discredit Hansen all you want for being a "Japanese guy" but at the end of it all he was far more effective as a wrestler, a better heel, and more beloved amongst his fans. That's why he goes over.

No, he wasn't. But Anderson was more over on average everywhere he wrestled. Hansen was over in one market he wrestled in, and not over in the USA at all, that's why all his runs there were really short.

But WWE doesn't tour Asia as much as they do Europe, though. They just had their first tour of China not too long ago. That's to be expected. But at the sane time you are speaking purely in terms of talent contracted solely by WWE. If this was a collaboration match between two promotions set in a neutral area which all fans had hypothetical access, then yes we'd see allot more involvement from the Japanese fans.

BUT THAT'S THE POINT. The WWE don't tour there because there's no money there.

But Mil wasn't under contract with them, they just had an agreement... which is what this match with Hansen and Anderson would be. Hansen would agree to either WWE or NWA's terms and Anderson would agree to New Japan or All Japan's terms.

Again, I'm aware of that. The point is, people from Mexican and American wrestling have drawn everywhere. People from Japanese haven't. The only Japanese wrestlers to have had success even in cross promotional things are the proper megastars like Giant Baba and Inoki.

It should be held in a neutral space, that way we can look at these two different wrestlers and their careers objectively without worrying about "X goes over Y here because Y didn't work there even though Y was a better wrestler than X." Otherwise what's the point of even having international wrestlers in this thing if you can just fall back on that?

All you're doing is making my point for me. Hansen was hugely over in NJPW, which he left unprofessionally and AJPW. He also wrestled in AWA, which he left unprofessionally, WWWF, where he broke the world champions and NWA, which he left unprofessionally. He wasn't really over in any of those places. 40% of his territories. Anderson wrestled in WWF, where he was over, several NWA territories, where he was over and WCW, where he was over. On balance, in a neutral setting, he's more likely to be over, though I will accept that Hansen was more over in the two places he was over, than Anderson was in his territories.

Wrestlers get injured all the time, no matter what style they use. There are at least 3 or 4 wrestlers out with injuries in the WWE every year, and they are - supposedly - the safest company. So don't give me that strong style leads to more injuries nonsense.

Well it does. Chris Jericho and Bret Hart have wrestled for a combined total of 50 years, and have not injured anyone or been injured. Hansen spends his autobiography apologising for injuring people. That's a fact, and its fucking obvious. How many times has the reigning WWE champion had his neck broken? Once. And it was Hansen's fault.

Even if Hansen was a bit more stiff than he needed to be, and a bit more unprofessional than most that should stop him from going over Anderson why? He was the better pro wrestler; he should move on.

What is pro wrestling? Making money by fake fighting. He was piss poor at fake fighting, and never made any money outside of Japan. Therefore he's not a good professional wrestler. Anderson was quite good at fake fighting and drew some money as part of the horsemen. He was a quite good pro wrestler.

Hansen worked both New Japan and All Japan, All Japan is more like WWE where they have distinct characters and story lines. Hansen was still able to be massively over. Working stiff is just a style, like brawling, or power, or technical, or high risk.

No, working stiff is how you injure people. The point of wrestling is to make it look real, all of those styles are designed to look real. It's only if you are incapable of performing that art properly that you have to work stiff.

It's as if you are trying to say that Hansen couldn't get over in a promotion formated like the NWA or WWE... which is wrong.

Well, it's not, because he wrestled in those promotions and didn't get over, then went back to Japan with his tail between his legs. That's a fact.

AJPW may be storyline based, I've only ever watched the matches not the full programmes so I have no idea. I can't speak Japanese, unlike all of the Japanese wrestling experts on these forums. You only need to look at the AJPW champions over time though to know that even if it is storyline based, it's still a haven for stiff workers.

And for the purpose of this tournament, the location should really be neutral; otherwise, we can't look at this objectively... like you aren't doing.

My understanding is that since the regions are just for show, and are for seeding purposes only, then the cities should be too. Your entire argument rests on the fact that X had success here and Y didn't, and since the "match" is here, X auto wins even though Y was a better wrestler.

In a neutral setting, Hansen would be booked over Anderson every time, and you know that.

No, in Japan Hansen would be booked over Anderson every time. Anywhere else, Hansen is less renown. That is a fact. Given that Japanese wrestling is only popular in Japan and American wrestling is popular everywhere, that means that a neutral location works to Anderson's favour.

The difference between backing someone like Misawa in a match in America is that he never had a run there, so you can talk hypotheticals, and you shouldn't let it destroy him. Hansen had several runs in America, and they were all short, and they all involved him being invested in by the company and not the crowd.

He is hurt by this not being in Japan, because he's wrestled in many places, and that's the only place he got over. I don't know how many times I can continue to state this, so I'm not going to bother replying when you inevitably miss the point again.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

In North America, Hansen was heel ALL THE TIME... which meant he took some losses to the likes of Bob Backlund, Hulk Hogan, and others... but in North America, he worked a less stiffer style as I've never heard a shoot interview where anyone complained about Hansen's work and styles.

In North America, he'd go over Anderson because he's probably be working as a face trying to fend off the Horsemen, and Anderson wouldn't know what to do with the stiffer worker in Hansen, who would catch him with The Lariat, and pin him.

I understand where Tasty's coming from in not being safe and stuff, but the match with Bruno was a case of Bruno sandbagging Hansen, and to me could be attributed to the lack of stamina that Bruno had. Kayfabe wise, Hansen ended his career with The Lariat.

The only exception where Hansen went too far was against a wrestler who was equally as stiff and unsafe to work with in Vader. Vader broke a jobber's neck on a TV taping with a powerbomb. So to me, that's a push.

Also, Hansen was very impaired visually... which contributed to his stiff work in the ring.

 

[Bernkastel]

Yes. It's a book where he discusses his career. It is not that match that he is discussing. Equally, when Vader's eye comes out of his head, that is also not kayfabe.

So basically you don't know. I described the only Koboshi/Hansen match that I've seen where someone was supposedly injured and it was a kayfabe injury. That little excerpt that you read probably discussed that fact along along with the notion that Hansen was supposed to act injured in the same match.

No, but Japanese fans make up a fraction of the wrestling audience. What is being increasingly obvious is that I am saying Hansen's only over in one market, and that in a neutral setting, with a smorgasbord of fans, his style wouldn't be well received.

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill; we aren't discussing Hansen vs Flair here. Arn Anderson's - kayfabe the weakest of the Horseman - stand alone fanbase is much smaller than Stan Hansen's. That's what I've been saying.

You seem to think that I'm arguing that because it's in the USA, Anderson would win. I'm not, I'm saying that because it's not in Japan, Hansen wouldn't.

That's not any different from the other. Your whole logic is biased so that you don't have to compare the two objectively. You just figure "this guy was popular here and the other wasn't so he auto wins because it's not there." You aren't comparing their careers, you aren't comparing them as wrestlers, and aren't even taking into account that in their primes they both worked as heels - the difference being Anderson jobbed all the time because he was the low man on the Horseman totem while Hansen was only beaten by the biggest names in his promotions. Even in the US.

No, he wasn't. But Anderson was more over on average everywhere he wrestled. Hansen was over in one market he wrestled in, and not over in the USA at all, that's why all his runs there were really short.

"More over" is subjective. That's discounting the fact that Hansen was a world champion in the States and Anderson never got close. You'd have a valid point if he was. Short reigns are at least better than none at all.

BUT THAT'S THE POINT. The WWE don't tour there because there's no money there.

For WWE... but you make it sound like there's no money to be made there period, and that's beyond ridiculous. That's why these crossover matches have to take place on a neutral playing field with no home advantage, otherwise there's no point in having international wrestlers in the tournament at all.

Again, I'm aware of that. The point is, people from Mexican and American wrestling have drawn everywhere. People from Japanese haven't. The only Japanese wrestlers to have had success even in cross promotional things are the proper megastars like Giant Baba and Inoki.

No you aren't. I'm not making my argument based on how any one promotion, like the WWE or All Japan, would book this match, you are. I'm not giving either a home field advantage. The winner should be the better wrestler in all categories, and that's Stan Hansen. It's not like New Japan and All Japan were small promotions - if they were you'd have another valid point.

All you're doing is making my point for me. Hansen was hugely over in NJPW, which he left unprofessionally and AJPW. He also wrestled in AWA, which he left unprofessionally, WWWF, where he broke the world champions and NWA, which he left unprofessionally.

Bravo, all you've manged to do is prove that Hansen's a dick. You've done nothing to show me how Hansen wasn't a better pro wrestler. Your whole argument comes down to "Hansen loses because it's not Japan." Are you going to use the same ridiculous argument in the Bret vs Rikidozan thread?

He wasn't really over in any of those places.

Even in AWA he was still world champ. Gagne liked him enough to let him hold his belt, even if it was for a bit. In All Japan Baba himself put Hansen over, and as head booker he would not have done so if couldn't make money. He made allot of money by putting the title on Hansen.

40% of his territories. Anderson wrestled in WWF, where he was over, several NWA territories, where he was over and WCW, where he was over. On balance, in a neutral setting, he's more likely to be over, though I will accept that Hansen was more over in the two places he was over, than Anderson was in his territories.

Arn was over... but not enough to get a world title run. He sounds allot like Matt Hardy or Kofi Kingston. Hansen probably would have been Brock Lesnar.

Well it does. Chris Jericho and Bret Hart have wrestled for a combined total of 50 years, and have not injured anyone or been injured. Hansen spends his autobiography apologising for injuring people. That's a fact, and its fucking obvious. How many times has the reigning WWE champion had his neck broken? Once. And it was Hansen's fault.

You act as if Hansen the only one to injure an opponent. It happens all the time.

What is pro wrestling? Making money by fake fighting. He was piss poor at fake fighting, and never made any money outside of Japan. Therefore he's not a good professional wrestler. Anderson was quite good at fake fighting and drew some money as part of the horsemen. He was a quite good pro wrestler.

Anderson didn't make any money out of the States. And what he made Hansen made more in just Japan. Therefore he was better than Anderson. You act as if pro wrestling only counts in North America; it doesn't.

No, working stiff is how you injure people. The point of wrestling is to make it look real, all of those styles are designed to look real. It's only if you are incapable of performing that art properly that you have to work stiff.

Wrong. Working stiff is the allusion that you are hitting harder. And this problem that you seem to have with it seems more like a problem with Hansen personally, like he pissed in your cereal. I can't find copious amounts of evidence anywhere that suggests the strong style is anymore unsafe than the modern style WWE uses. Inoki did it for 40 years and I can't remembering him injuring anyone. Same with Misawa and Baba.

Well, it's not, because he wrestled in those promotions and didn't get over, then went back to Japan with his tail between his legs. That's a fact.

And managed to get over in promotions in Japan that were bigger, and making more money, than the AWA.

AJPW may be storyline based, I've only ever watched the matches not the full programmes so I have no idea. I can't speak Japanese, unlike all of the Japanese wrestling experts on these forums. You only need to look at the AJPW champions over time though to know that even if it is storyline based, it's still a haven for stiff workers.

I don't speak Japanese, but I know a bit about the customs and culture, and why the product is booked how it is. Japanese fans want to see a certain type of strong style, and it has nothing to do with shooting or hitting harder. It's the allusion of hitting harder, combined with no selling, to make the wrestlers look superhuman.

You just said you haven't watched the programming, so how the fuck would you know if it's story line based. Looking at the championship history won't tell you anything about that.

No, in Japan Hansen would be booked over Anderson every time. Anywhere else, Hansen is less renown. That is a fact. Given that Japanese wrestling is only popular in Japan and American wrestling is popular everywhere, that means that a neutral location works to Anderson's favour.

A neutral location doesn't include just the States or just Japan. Fans all across the world would have hypothetical access to the playing field. To my knowledge Anderson didn't draw outside one country, Hansen was relevant in two having drawn a little in the States and allot in Japan.

The difference between backing someone like Misawa in a match in America is that he never had a run there, so you can talk hypotheticals, and you shouldn't let it destroy him.

And I wouldn't, but I'd still treat his opponent with curtsy.

Hansen had several runs in America, and they were all short, and they all involved him being invested in by the company and not the crowd.

Even if, does that discount what he did in Japan? No, because the AWA wasn't his prime. And isn't that what we're going of off here? Prime Hansen you may as well discount the AWA.

He is hurt by this not being in Japan, because he's wrestled in many places, and that's the only place he got over. I don't know how many times I can continue to state this, so I'm not going to bother replying when you inevitably miss the point again.

I get your point; you are trying to compare apples and apples. But the apples from Hansen's career wasn't his prime, and he shouldn't be judged based on that.

 

[deem]

I love both. If i had to pick to buy a DVD of one of theirs, I'd probably take Hansen's when push came to shove. That doesn't matter though - here we need to evaluate success over a career and kayfabe booking of a match. Anderson hasn't got a stick to shake at Hansen. He doesn't touch him.

Look, I don't get this. Anderson is nothing. He's a great worker, great talker who was absolutely perfect for his role in the Horsemen. He never got past that though. I repeat, I LOVE ANDERSON.

You gotta take Hansen's success in Japan with a pinch of salt, I do agree. It's not North America, being an ethnic minority and standing out a ton over would of helped him. As aforementioned, Hansen's North America work alone is enough to go over Anderson here.

If you want to vote for your favourite, there is no point discussing it. Just do it and don't try to defend your point. If you are voting within kayfabe, or on career vs career, I just can't see how a career midcarder with a handful of notable wins can go over someone with a great career filled with dominating the biggest names in the history of Japan. Names that have constantly done well vs the best in America. This is not even close. At all. You have to be completely naive to dismiss his multiple victories over Misawa/Baba/Inoki/Kawada/Kobashi/Tsurutu/Tenryu. He main evented shows against Hogan, had a bitter rivalry for the WWWF title vs a peak Sammartino. He has beaten Andre/Gordy/Williams/Vader if you want form against Americans too.

Hansen wins and this shouldn't be close. LARIATOOOOOOOOO

 

[Tastycles]

So basically you don't know. I described the only Koboshi/Hansen match that I've seen where someone was supposedly injured and it was a kayfabe injury. That little excerpt that you read probably discussed that fact along along with the notion that Hansen was supposed to act injured in the same match.

http://www.crowbarpress.com/cbp-books/14-sh.html#ex

No, the little excerpt is taken from his autobiography, from chapter 15 "accidentally injuring Kenta Kobashi".

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill; we aren't discussing Hansen vs Flair here. Arn Anderson's - kayfabe the weakest of the Horseman - stand alone fanbase is much smaller than Stan Hansen's. That's what I've been saying.

And I'm saying I don't think it is. Hansen wrestled in front of a lot of fans in Japan, and he was popular. Anderson also wrestled in front of more fans over the course of his career, though probably wasn't as fanatically liked. However, while Anderson has maintained a consistent level of support everywhere he's been, Hansen somehow managed to wrestle Bruno Sammartino in New York City and the gate wasn't a sell out.

That's not any different from the other. Your whole logic is biased so that you don't have to compare the two objectively. You just figure "this guy was popular here and the other wasn't so he auto wins because it's not there." You aren't comparing their careers, you aren't comparing them as wrestlers, and aren't even taking into account that in their primes they both worked as heels - the difference being Anderson jobbed all the time because he was the low man on the Horseman totem while Hansen was only beaten by the biggest names in his promotions. Even in the US.

Stan Hansen never really wrestled long enough in the US to start feuding with shithouses, he always got kicked out or walked out after a feud. His major US feuds were with Rick "The Model" Martel, which he won. Bockwinkel, which he no-showed the decisive match he was going to lose, Luger, which he lost, Sammartino, which he lost, Ivan Putski, which he lost, and Bob Backlund, which he lost. So, even if you stretch Ivan Putski to being a major player, he's still barely beaten anyone there.

"More over" is subjective. That's discounting the fact that Hansen was a world champion in the States and Anderson never got close. You'd have a valid point if he was. Short reigns are at least better than none at all.

He was the AWA Champion in the 80s. I guarantee had Anderson been shit enough to be in AWA in the 80s, he'd have been the champion there along with the other luminaries like Rick "The Model" Martel and Otto Wanz.

For WWE... but you make it sound like there's no money to be made there period, and that's beyond ridiculous. That's why these crossover matches have to take place on a neutral playing field with no home advantage, otherwise there's no point in having international wrestlers in the tournament at all.

No, I'm saying that wrestlers who make money there rarely make it anywhere else. Mil Mascaras came to the US and made money. Pat O'Connor came to the US and made money. If you have a crossover match, the person most likely to win is the one that as a whole internationally is more likely to get over at that specific point. Hansen was very capable of getting over in Japan and not remotely capable anywhere else. Anderson was moderately capable of getting over everywhere.

No you aren't. I'm not making my argument based on how any one promotion, like the WWE or All Japan, would book this match, you are. I'm not giving either a home field advantage. The winner should be the better wrestler in all categories, and that's Stan Hansen. It's not like New Japan and All Japan were small promotions - if they were you'd have another valid point.

Bravo, all you've manged to do is prove that Hansen's a dick. You've done nothing to show me how Hansen wasn't a better pro wrestler. Your whole argument comes down to "Hansen loses because it's not Japan." Are you going to use the same ridiculous argument in the Bret vs Rikidozan thread?

No, because Rikidozan didn't try and fail to get over outside Japan. Do you realise we aren't talking about what ifs, we're talking about what actually happened. Rikidozan might well have gotten over in the US, so we can consider him to have had a chance at winning there, and a portion of the crowd who like the American style could be speculated to like him for some reason or other. Hansen could not get over in the US, even when in programmes with mega stars, so we can be certain he wouldn't have the backing of the portion of our hypothetical neutral audience that were fans of American wrestling.

Even in AWA he was still world champ. Gagne liked him enough to let him hold his belt, even if it was for a bit. In All Japan Baba himself put Hansen over, and as head booker he would not have done so if couldn't make money. He made allot of money by putting the title on Hansen.

I'm not denying people pushed Hansen in the US, I'm saying he failed every single time they tried.

Arn was over... but not enough to get a world title run. He sounds allot like Matt Hardy or Kofi Kingston. Hansen probably would have been Brock Lesnar.

No, he would have been Lord Tensai. Pushed to high heaven on arriving, failing to make a connection with the crowd, but unlike Tensai, rather then accepting his lot in the company, he would leave the company in the lurch like the monumental prick he is.

You act as if Hansen the only one to injure an opponent. It happens all the time.

Yes, but to some wrestlers more than others. Brody and Hansen did it all the time, and neither of them had a sustained run in North America, because bookers wouldn't trust them.

Anderson didn't make any money out of the States. And what he made Hansen made more in just Japan. Therefore he was better than Anderson. You act as if pro wrestling only counts in North America; it doesn't.

This is literally the only coherent argument you've made in all of these posts, and the only one worth considering.

Hansen probably did make more money than Anderson, though it's hard to truly compare. What I'm saying is there's two aspects to being a professional wrestler - making money, and having fake fights. Hansen was good at one of those in a niche market, and bad at the other. Anderson was moderate at both, I think that makes him better.

Wrong. Working stiff is the allusion that you are hitting harder. And this problem that you seem to have with it seems more like a problem with Hansen personally, like he pissed in your cereal. I can't find copious amounts of evidence anywhere that suggests the strong style is anymore unsafe than the modern style WWE uses. Inoki did it for 40 years and I can't remembering him injuring anyone. Same with Misawa and Baba.

It's illusion, not allusion, unless the style is somehow referential. Working stiff isn't the illusion that you're working harder, it's actually hitting the person harder. The injuries that occur in the WWE are generally wear and tear - pulled muscles and the like that could happen to anyone. Making someone's eye pop out of their head and breaking someone's nose happens because you are a tool that's hitting them too hard.

This shouldn't be controversial.

And managed to get over in promotions in Japan that were bigger, and making more money, than the AWA.

Right, he only appealed to a niche market.

I don't speak Japanese, but I know a bit about the customs and culture, and why the product is booked how it is. Japanese fans want to see a certain type of strong style, and it has nothing to do with shooting or hitting harder. It's the allusion of hitting harder, combined with no selling, to make the wrestlers look superhuman.

Right. Except Hansen actually was hitting them harder. That is a fact corroborated by the man himself, which he blames on his eyesight.

You just said you haven't watched the programming, so how the fuck would you know if it's story line based. Looking at the championship history won't tell you anything about that.

Err... I don't know that, so I quite clearly said that it doesn't matter if it is or it isn't storyline based, the wrestlers that have won titles there - Steve Williams, Vader, Misawa etc. are all stiff workers. So whether the fights are apropos of nothing, or because Misawa didn't like Tenryu's Ho train is irrelevant. The in ring style is stiff.

A neutral location doesn't include just the States or just Japan. Fans all across the world would have hypothetical access to the playing field. To my knowledge Anderson didn't draw outside one country, Hansen was relevant in two having drawn a little in the States and allot in Japan.

I know that. There are three big markets. Japan, Mexico and North America. There is a history of people doing well in Mexico from North America and vice versa. There is almost no history of people from Japan doing well in the other two because the Japanese style, the style which Hansen is good at, is largely unpopular everywhere else they like wrestling.

And I wouldn't, but I'd still treat his opponent with curtsy.

I literally have no idea what this means.

Even if, does that discount what he did in Japan? No, because the AWA wasn't his prime. And isn't that what we're going of off here? Prime Hansen you may as well discount the AWA.

I get your point; you are trying to compare apples and apples. But the apples from Hansen's career wasn't his prime, and he shouldn't be judged based on that.

HE was in AWA before he won all but two of his singles titles in Japan. When exactly was his prime, if it wasn't the late 80s? When he was basically a tag wrestler? When he was failing to sell out venues in New York City against Bruno Sammartino? Because that's where he was before his AWA win.