WWE Region, Philadelphia Subregion, First Round: (11)Stan Hansen vs. (22)Arn Anderson

[Hollywood Naitch]

This would have been a great match to see!

I am leaning towards Hansen in this because Arn had most of his success as a tag-team wrestler, while the Lariat was a bona-fide main eventer in Japan for a long time.

Anderson was very, very good and its a shame that most people will know him as the number 2 guy in the Horsemen behind Flair, and he probably did deserve a higher spot than he got.

But Hansen has this one for me, there aint no way Arn is getting up after a lariat, Horsemen interferance or not.

 

[justtxyank]

Given that his autobiography is essentially a 400 page excuse for why he injured x and y at a specific time and place, I wouldn't have to look very far. There are chapter headings about him injuring Kobashi and Austin Idol, and the content by all accounts is much of the same, though I have only read second hand descriptions of the book. I don't know how hard you've researched but by literally typing "Stan Hansen injured" into google, you get a video of him popping Vader's eye out of his socket as the first result.

Classic.

Poster suggests someone else should "research" something after he proceeded to post falsehoods.

I own the Stan Hansen autobiography. It is not a 400 page excuse for injuring people. None of the chapter titles are about injuring someone either.

http://www.crowbarpress.com/cbp-books/14-sh.html#ct

Now, yes, he did injury people. And the two things you mentioned (Austin Idol and Kenta Kobashi) are referenced in the chapter notes on the website.

Do you know how many wrestlers get injured in matches? When you work the Japanese style of actually trying to make it look like you are hurting each other, people actually end up getting hurt sometimes.

Edit: EEE gads! Suggesting Hansen wasn't over in the US? Aye caramba!

Hansen didn't stay in the US because he was a God in Japan and was loyal to Baba. His runs here didn't end because of his lack of overness. His AWA title run ended because Gagne was a tool and wanted him to do something that made no sense and Hansen's loyalty was to the other promotion he worked for. He would walk out of a promotion that would book him stupidly because he worked in All Japan and had no desire to waste his time being made to look a fool. But he was certainly over. He was over in WCW, he was over in the AWA.

If he was such a danger and lacked "overness" it's hard to imagine why promoters were bringing him to feud with their stars. The NWA was grooming Luger to be the biggest star in the promotion yet they had him work a program with a ticking time bomb in Hansen? The AWA was built around Martel yet they let him work with a guy who injured everyone? Ridiculousness.

 

[ABMorales787]

Classic.

Poster suggests someone else should "research" something after he proceeded to post falsehoods.

And what proof is there that he's lying?

I own the Stan Hansen autobiography. It is not a 400 page excuse for injuring people. None of the chapter titles are about injuring someone either.

http://www.crowbarpress.com/cbp-books/14-sh.html#ct

And that makes you the expert? Keep in mind. It's an AUTObiography. He'll say things from HIS perspective. Just because he's the wrestler, it doesn't make all his actions right.

Now, yes, he did injury people. And the two things you mentioned (Austin Idol and Kenta Kobashi) are referenced in the chapter notes on the website.

Do you know how many wrestlers get injured in matches? When you work the Japanese style of actually trying to make it look like you are hurting each other, people actually end up getting hurt sometimes.

That sounds more like a problem than a reason. Doing it in Japan where it's demanded is one thing. Carrying it everywhere though is another thing. It brings problems. Which is why his tag team partner was killed.

Edit: EEE gads! Suggesting Hansen wasn't over in the US? Aye caramba!

Hansen didn't stay in the US because he was a God in Japan and was loyal to Baba. His runs here didn't end because of his lack of overness. His AWA title run ended because Gagne was a tool and wanted him to do something that made no sense and Hansen's loyalty was to the other promotion he worked for. He would walk out of a promotion that would book him stupidly because he worked in All Japan and had no desire to waste his time being made to look a fool. But he was certainly over. He was over in WCW, he was over in the AWA.

So basically, he was too stuck up to work within the system. Sounds like an issue to me. He's not the boss, he's an employee.

If he was such a danger and lacked "overness" it's hard to imagine why promoters were bringing him to feud with their stars. The NWA was grooming Luger to be the biggest star in the promotion yet they had him work a program with a ticking time bomb in Hansen? The AWA was built around Martel yet they let him work with a guy who injured everyone? Ridiculousness.

Luger regrets working with Brody. Others have shown regret for dealing with stiff wrestlers. Hansen would be no different. Wrestlers have no say on who the promoter brings in to feud with them. Stan's reputation is built around his toughness as well as his stiff wrestling. Not everyone is a fan of that because some people care for their health. Silly notion, I know.

 

[Tastycles]

Classic.

Poster suggests someone else should "research" something after he proceeded to post falsehoods.

I own the Stan Hansen autobiography. It is not a 400 page excuse for injuring people. None of the chapter titles are about injuring someone either.

http://www.crowbarpress.com/cbp-books/14-sh.html#ct

Now, yes, he did injury people. And the two things you mentioned (Austin Idol and Kenta Kobashi) are referenced in the chapter notes on the website.

1) I estimate I said about 7 times throughout the course of my posts with Echelon that I had not read the book and was referring to second hand accounts. Couldn't have been much clearer that I hadn't read it.

2) So I said chapter heading when I meant chapter notes. Big deal, the point stands, as you go on to concede, he discusses the fact that he injured people in his book, which completely proves my point and counter proves Echelon's that he only ever injured Bruno Sammartino.

Do you know how many wrestlers get injured in matches? When you work the Japanese style of actually trying to make it look like you are hurting each other, people actually end up getting hurt sometimes.

That's true. But I've heard far more about him injuring people than any other wrestler in Japan, and that's including from his own fans.

Edit: EEE gads! Suggesting Hansen wasn't over in the US? Aye caramba!

Well, he wasn't.

Hansen didn't stay in the US because he was a God in Japan and was loyal to Baba.

Was he loyal to Baba when he was flopping in WWWF. Like I said, if you're fighting Bruno Sammartino in Madison Square Garden and you aren't selling it out. You aren't over with the audience.

His runs here didn't end because of his lack of overness. His AWA title run ended because Gagne was a tool and wanted him to do something that made no sense

Gagne wanted him to lose to a more loyal and more over wrestler. Gee, that sure makes no sense.

and Hansen's loyalty was to the other promotion he worked for. He would walk out of a promotion that would book him stupidly because he worked in All Japan and had no desire to waste his time being made to look a fool.

You only get made to look a fool if bookers don't value you. When he came back to the US four years after the AWA debacle, he had a feud with Luger, then he got put with the Desperados and then he got on his high horse again. People who are over don't get put in angles with people like the Desperados.

But he was certainly over. He was over in WCW, he was over in the AWA.

This angle would have been bigger than the nWo.

[YOUTUBE]OgJk11p6i8I[/YOUTUBE]

If he was such a danger and lacked "overness" it's hard to imagine why promoters were bringing him to feud with their stars. The NWA was grooming Luger to be the biggest star in the promotion yet they had him work a program with a ticking time bomb in Hansen?

A short programme, because most of the other midcarders had feuded with Luger already. Hansen managed to win the title, which is something, but he obviously wasn't ever a long term plan for WCW, otherwise that absolute pile of youtube nonsense above would not have come to pass.

The AWA was built around Martel yet they let him work with a guy who injured everyone? Ridiculousness.

Rick Martel left the AWA immediately after his feud with Hansen. I think it's fairly safe to say he wasn't part of their long term plans.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

I know voting is done but there were some things I wanted to respond to and didn't have a chance yesterday.

And that makes you the expert? Keep in mind. It's an AUTObiography. He'll say things from HIS perspective. Just because he's the wrestler, it doesn't make all his actions right.

Yes it is Hansens autobiography but it was brought into the discussion by Tastycles to show how bad Hansen was. You cannot now say we can't believe it because it may not fit your needs.

1) I estimate I said about 7 times throughout the course of my posts with Echelon that I had not read the book and was referring to second hand accounts. Couldn't have been much clearer that I hadn't read it.

Problem is you state several things that give the impression you have read it. Such as...

Given that his autobiography is essentially a 400 page excuse for why he injured x and y at a specific time and place, I wouldn't have to look very far.

Yes he did. As I said, go to his autobiography, read it, or even read a review of it, and you'll see my point.

Hansen spends his autobiography apologising for injuring people. That's a fact, and its fucking obvious.

All these statements sound like you read the book and KNOW what was in it. Fact is you don't. You have no idea how he hurt Kobashi or even if it was in ring. The injury to Idol is in parenthesis. Idol "injures" his ribs. Might not even be a real injury. Fact is you don't know. In fact the only two injuries you really know about is the one to Bruno and the one to Vader, and of the two only the one to Vader was from being stiff.

Like I said, if you're fighting Bruno Sammartino in Madison Square Garden and you aren't selling it out. You aren't over with the audience.

Can you back this up, or are you just throwing this out there to help yourself?

No he wasn't a big star. He was one of the many who passed through. He was such a big star, that Vince McMahon Sr. had to rush Sammartino back after less than two months so the company didn't go under.

That just proves how head and shoulders above the rest Bruno was. A fact I hope we all remember when I am arguing him past The Rock and Austin.

No, but a wrestler who is only good in Japan should not do well somewhere that is not Japan.

Incorrect. Wrestlers such as Masa Siato, The Great Muta, The Great Kabuki, Thunder Liger, Baba, Inoki, Fujinami, Tiger Mask and Tsuruta have all come across the Pacific and had success. Your logic holds no water.

Hell, Japanese tag teams made it to the semi-finals of two crockett cups and to the finals of the O'Conner tourney in the USA.

I understand where Tasty's coming from in not being safe and stuff, but the match with Bruno was a case of Bruno sandbagging Hansen

BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

Hansen has said it was his fault. He grabbed Sammartino wrong duwe to a series of matches he was working in which his opponent slid out and went for a pin. Sammartino was not going to do this. Hansen dropped him on his head. Sammartino sandbagged no one.

and to me could be attributed to the lack of stamina that Bruno had.

AHHHHH!!!!!

Bruno worked 60 minute matches with Baba. A few years prior he wrestled Moralas to a 75 minute draw. Bruno had stamina.

AND THE SLAM CAME AT THE 8 MINUTE MARK!

Are you just making this shit up.

Kayfabe wise, Hansen ended his career with The Lariat.

Oh fuck me.

Bruno broke his neck on April 26th, 1976. He lost the title to Graham on April 30th, 1977. ONE YEAR LATER. He then wrestled Graham several more times, the last being on the night before Graham would lose to Backland. Over a year later. He then wrestled Race for the NWA title to a 60 minute draw( stamina ), went west then up to Canada, back for the fued with Zybszko and then retired in 1981 only to return in 1984 where he beat the likes of randy Savage, HonkyTonk Man, Hercules, Adrian Adonis and Roddy Piper( beating the Rowdy one in a cage ), before retiring again in 87.

Yeah, Hansen ended his career.

 

[Tastycles]

Problem is you state several things that give the impression you have read it. Such as...

All these statements sound like you read the book and KNOW what was in it. Fact is you don't. You have no idea how he hurt Kobashi or even if it was in ring. The injury to Idol is in parenthesis. Idol "injures" his ribs. Might not even be a real injury. Fact is you don't know. In fact the only two injuries you really know about is the one to Bruno and the one to Vader, and of the two only the one to Vader was from being stiff.

Way to completely take what I said out of context. What I actually said:

Given that his autobiography is essentially a 400 page excuse for why he injured x and y at a specific time and place, I wouldn't have to look very far. There are chapter headings about him injuring Kobashi and Austin Idol, and the content by all accounts is much of the same, though I have only read second hand descriptions of the book.

Can you back this up, or are you just throwing this out there to help yourself?

I was really excited the first night I walked into Madison Square Garden. My thoughts immediately went back to the time when my dad and I watched the Friday night boxing matches from the Garden on television. I’ve always had bad vision, and I remember thinking the building was so big that I couldn’t see the fans at the top of the grandstands. The show itself didn’t sell out, but it drew 17,493 fans, which was still a respectable number.

That just proves how head and shoulders above the rest Bruno was. A fact I hope we all remember when I am arguing him past The Rock and Austin.

Well it came

Incorrect. Wrestlers such as Masa Siato, The Great Muta, The Great Kabuki, Thunder Liger, Baba, Inoki, Fujinami, Tiger Mask and Tsuruta have all come across the Pacific and had success. Your logic holds no water.

The vast majority of those people had about two major fights in the US. Baba, Muta, Fujinami and Chono were the NWA Champion, but only won, defended and lost the title in Japan. Saito and Tsuruta had similar stories with the AWA title, though they lost the title in the US and Saito had moderate success as a tag wrestler in the 70s, a point in time where tag wrestling wasn't really a big deal. Liger and Tiger Mask are cruiserweights that don't wrestle in the style we're talking about and only had success in the cruiserweight division. Kabuki was a quirky journeyman and Inoki was famous for fighting Muhammed Ali. That is the sum total of wrestlers to have made an impact, and most of them didn't really do that in the US, just in American companies on Japanese tours.

On the other hand, the WWE has had two luchador world champions in the last 2 years and guys like Jericho and Jeff Hardy clearly owe a lot to that style

Hell, Japanese tag teams made it to the semi-finals of two crockett cups and to the finals of the O'Conner tourney in the USA.

Shit the bed? Really? The semi finals of the Crockett Cup? Well stone me dead, that is exactly the same as beating the WWWF Champion in Madison Square Garden by stoppage, which is what Mil Mascaras did. Or holding the NWA title over a year, which is what Pat O'Connor did.

You clearly know what you're talking about, I only hope that you channel your efforts into Sammartino and not Hansen in the subsequent round, because he deserves it much more.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

Yes, I did take some out of context but my point was valid. You said things that made it appear as if you read or had vast knowledge of the book. This was you...

Hansen spends his autobiography apologising for injuring people. That's a fact, and its fucking obvious.

By stating it as a fact gives the impression you read the book. All I was saying.

I concede the point about Hansen and the sellout. I didn't believe you, you proved me wrong.

The vast majority of those people had about two major fights in the US. Baba, Muta, Fujinami and Chono were the NWA Champion, but only won, defended and lost the title in Japan. Saito and Tsuruta had similar stories with the AWA title, though they lost the title in the US and Saito had moderate success as a tag wrestler in the 70s, a point in time where tag wrestling wasn't really a big deal. Liger and Tiger Mask are cruiserweights that don't wrestle in the style we're talking about and only had success in the cruiserweight division. Kabuki was a quirky journeyman and Inoki was famous for fighting Muhammed Ali. That is the sum total of wrestlers to have made an impact, and most of them didn't really do that in the US, just in American companies on Japanese tours.

Not the point. You said that no star from Japan could come over to the United States and be booked to win. I gave you a list of some who have. Plus...

Jumbo was AWA champ for about 3 1/2 months.
Baba wrestled in the Crockett Cups plus also for WCCW and at AWA WrestleRock.
Muta was a NWA TV champ, going over Sting to get it.
Liger and Tiger Mask won titles in WCW and WWF respectfully, it does not matter if they were cruiserweights. They came from japan and won.
Saito was a AWA world champ in 1990 but was also a 2 time wwf tag champ with Mr. Fuji in the 80s. He then went to the AWA and formed a successful tag team with Bockwinkel before leaving.
Fujimami and Inoki wrestled events in NYC for the WWF and won.
Kabuki may have been a journeymen, but he was a winner everywhere he went.

My point was a star from japan would certainly b booked to win here in the states.

Shit the bed? Really? The semi finals of the Crockett Cup? Well stone me dead, that is exactly the same as beating the WWWF Champion in Madison Square Garden by stoppage, which is what Mil Mascaras did. Or holding the NWA title over a year, which is what Pat O'Connor did.

Missed the point. Not only were the Japanese teams booked to win but they won more then one match to get to the semi-finals or finals, again proving your point invalid.

 

[Tastycles]

Yes, I did take some out of context but my point was valid. You said things that made it appear as if you read or had vast knowledge of the book. This was you...

By stating it as a fact gives the impression you read the book. All I was saying.

You know what gives the impression that I didn't read the book?

Me explicitly saying that I didn't read the book.

Not the point. You said that no star from Japan could come over to the United States and be booked to win. I gave you a list of some who have. Plus...

Again, what you quoted me as saying to make that point is this:

No, but a wrestler who is only good in Japan should not do well somewhere that is not Japan.

That clearly means that someone who was only a success in Japan would be negatively influenced by a match that isn't in Japan. Nothing to do with Japanese wrestlers not getting over.

As a counter point to your next argument, I said that most of those other guys weren't remotely as successful in the US, particularly compared to the successful luchadors, another imported style; those who won won titles barely defended them on US soil.