This is a third round match in the Austin Region. It is a Casket match. It will be held at the American Airlines Center in Dallas, Texas.
Rules: There is a casket at ringside. The match is won when someone is placed inside the casket with the lid shut.
#2. Shawn Michaels
Vs.
#7. Ultimate Warrior
Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster. Assume that the wrestlers are coming in fresh after their first round match.
Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.
There is no way that Michaels would win this match. He beat Undertaker in very dubious circumstances in a casket match, in a match that would ultimately cost him 4 years of his career, so something of a pyrrhic victory. Warrior beat Undertaker in a series of bodybag matches, which whilst not exactly the same thing, they are the same premise and he won them without interference or any shennanigans. If you're arguing this on match experience, it's not a decisive factor in Michaels' favour at all.
The other manner that people will say Michaels will win is by 'tiring out' Warrior. I don't know how many times we have to discuss this, but Warrior never used to get tired. He used to win his matches quickly because he was better than his opponents. Nobody questioned Tyson's stamina for knocking out his opponents in 4 rounds or whatever, and the same must apply here. The only two wrestlers that took Warrior to any kind of distance were Hogan and Savage. In both cases over 20 minutes with an all time great, in both cases Warrior won.
When Warrior was on top of the WWF there was a discernible, but slight, downturn from when Hogan was on top. When Michaels was on top, they were close to going out of business. WrestleMania VI, headlined by Ultimate Warrior had more people in attendance than all three of Michaels' main events at Mania put together. The TV ratings Warrior had were around 10.0 on Saturday Night's Main Event, compared to Michaels 2.0. Warrior was a better draw.
The only aspect of pro wrestling that is not obviously in Warrior's favour is match quality. Well, I'm sure this would be a classic, as was Warrior's match with Savage. Which he won. Michaels had more great matches, but he also lost an awful lot of them - Razor Ramon, Undertaker, Angle to name a few. Would this be a classic? Yes. Would a lot of that be to do with Michaels? Yes. Would Michaels beat Warrior? No.
The only way I can see Michaels taking this is under, to quote Tasty, "very dubious circumstances." It is no DQ so the possibility is there but I always look at these as straight one-on-one matches with no chance at an interference, and that seems like the only chance that Shawn has at putting Warrior down to the point where he can roll him into a casket and shut the lid. I will say this, Shawn Michaels at the height of his heel run, was a brutal bastard who always found ways to win. As a face, he was probably one of the toughest competitors to beat clean. But still, the Ultimate Warrior was nearly unstoppable when it comes down to it.
Usually, when we get this far into the tourney I try to look at who would most likely come out on top in the match we're given. Michaels may have had a longer career than Warrior, he may have been more universally loved and respected, and he may, at the end of the day, be considered one of the greatest of all time. But in a Casket match between he and the Ultimate Warrior, I just don't see him winning. Warrior would take everything Shawn throws at him and keep coming back because that's what history has shown us. Shawn would put up a fight, but he'd eventually go down after enough punishment.
I hate to say it but HBK gets beat here. I'd love to say that he perservears but he doesn't. Ultimate Warrior in his prime was literally unbeatable. The likes of Hogan, Savage, and 'Taker couldn't even beat Warrior. Hell, 'Taker couldn't even beat Warrior in a body bag match. HBK goes down here.
I think it's fair to say the precursor to the Casket Match is the Bodybag Match. Same basic rules, put your opponent in the object and seal it. That, much like this, was an Undertaker specialty gimmick. Warrior beat Taker in that specialty match on his own. Shawn Michaels beat Taker in a Casket Match with Kane's assistance. That isn't going to happen here. Warrior will likely try and bulldoze his way through Michaels who will make up ground via his speed and superior in-ring acumen, but that's not what this match is about, and much like he did to Randy Savage - the most similar wrestler to Michaels that Warrior's faced - he will absorb all that HBK throws his way, only to unleash it back with renewed energy and vigor. Michaels goes down here.
I liked Shawn Michaels as a performer a lot more than I liked Ultimate Warrior. I think Michaels was better for business too. If I'm going off accolades, drawing power, impact on the business etc etc, Michaels wins. However, if I factor in the kayfabe argument then there's no way I can see Michaels winning this one unless the entirety of DX interferes on his behalf.
Such is the nature of the gimmick rounds I suppose.
This is a NO DQ match where you shove your opponent in a casket to win.
People are scoffing at the idea of HBK winning without the entirety of DX interfering on his behalf. Well I see exactly that happening.
No doubt Warrior would be booked to win at one point but I can fully see Michaels using the backstage pull we all know he had to get the entire DX running in and making him look like gold while Warrior gets carted out in the casket.
Even if it's by hook or by crook, HBK is winning this. He has DX who could help him win, and even if Warrior took care of them by time he did that HBK would get in a cheap shot with a weapon or sneak in a low blow to set up the final Sweet Chin Music of the match and finish off Warrior.
HBK is also a much bigger star and a much better wrestler. Just because Warrior beat Undertaker in these matches doesn't mean he beats HBK. Vote HBK.
Here's the thing: I know we talk about how Shawn was overwhelmed in this casket match or in this Cell match etc. The thing is, every time something like that's said, it's always followed up by "but he won anyway". That's what happens here: Shawn is overmatched but finds a way to win.
The other thing to remember is that while Shawn might be overmatched physically, no one has ever accused Ultimate Warrior of being the most cerebral wrestler. Shawn is going to be able to hang in there long enough to catch Warrior in a mistake (say a missed flying tackle) and catch him with a single superkick. That knocks Warrior silly enough to keep Shawn alive and then later on he'll get Warrior into the casket and slam it shut for the win.
I'm voting for Shawn because I think he's a better wrestler, and because I'm mad that we're not getting a dream match of Shinsuke Nakamura vs Shawn Michaels.
Not a lot would phase Warrior, but caskets and voodoo seemed to be his kryptonite. He's not too keen when he's around caskets, I'm convinced that Shawn could win by daring Warrior to prove how tough he is by lying down in the casket.
Ultimate Warrior could out-flex the best of them, but when it comes to stipulation matches where some amount of cleverness would be required, I don't see Warrior showing a rare sign of sophistication.
Here's the thing: I know we talk about how Shawn was overwhelmed in this casket match or in this Cell match etc. The thing is, every time something like that's said, it's always followed up by "but he won anyway". That's what happens here: Shawn is overmatched but finds a way to win.
Kane interfered in the only singles Hell in a Cell match Michaels won. Warrior didn't burn Kane's house down and kill his parents, so Kane probably won't get involved.
Kane interfered in the only singles casket match Michaels won. Warrior didn't burn Kane's house down and kill his parents, so Kane probably won't get involved.
Michaels' "Finding a way to win" in the matches you mentioned actually involved being completely sparked out when Kane comes down to the ring and beats up his opponent. That's not conniving or clever, it's lucky. Kane has no business in this match, nobody does really, so I don't see why Warrior would lose.
The other thing to remember is that while Shawn might be overmatched physically, no one has ever accused Ultimate Warrior of being the most cerebral wrestler. Shawn is going to be able to hang in there long enough to catch Warrior in a mistake (say a missed flying tackle) and catch him with a single superkick. That knocks Warrior silly enough to keep Shawn alive and then later on he'll get Warrior into the casket and slam it shut for the win.
I can't comprehend how a man that had Savage do his finisher to 5 times in a row and still kick out would be felled by one super kick. In the bodybag match that there's a video of, Warrior gets smashed on the head by Undertaker's urn and still gets up immediately. Warrior's no selling makes him almost unbeatable in this kind of match.
Kane interfered in the only singles Hell in a Cell match Michaels won. Warrior didn't burn Kane's house down and kill his parents, so Kane probably won't get involved.
Kane interfered in the only singles casket match Michaels won. Warrior didn't burn Kane's house down and kill his parents, so Kane probably won't get involved.
True, though Shawn didn't lose the World Title to a simple elbow drop either.
Michaels' "Finding a way to win" in the matches you mentioned actually involved being completely sparked out when Kane comes down to the ring and beats up his opponent. That's not conniving or clever, it's lucky.
Superkick off the apron, missed shoulder and a baseball slide, the casket gets stood up and Warrior charges into it by mistake and it falls over, shutting in the process (Undertaker beat Big Show that way once). Whatever Shawn can put together.
I can't comprehend how a man that had Savage do his finisher to 5 times in a row and still kick out would be felled by one super kick. In the bodybag match that there's a video of, Warrior gets smashed on the head by Undertaker's urn and still gets up immediately. Warrior's no selling makes him almost unbeatable in this kind of match.
It's not like Warrior hasn't been beaten before. He lost to an elbow drop and he's lost to a chair to the back. Shawn doesn't even have to beat him for three seconds, but rather just one.
Also, I'm not sure I'd use no selling as an argument in a casket match given Undertaker's history in them, including a loss to that Shawn guy.
True, though Shawn didn't lose the World Title to a simple elbow drop either.
It's not like Warrior hasn't been beaten before. He lost to an elbow drop and he's lost to a chair to the back.
When did Warrior lose to an elbow drop, much less the world title?
He lost the world title to Slaughter when about 5 people interfered, including Savage hitting him with various technical equipment and finally his sceptre. That's quite a lot of interference, that's quite unlikely to happen here.
He lost to Rick Rude when Heenan pulled his legs from under him.
Aside from a load of count out defeats in dark matches to Savage, again an opponent he beat decisively, I don't think he lost another match.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rude and Slaughter were his only televised defeats in WWF, both were swiftly avenged. I know Hogan beat him in the ludicrous WCW match, but that's as relevant to Warrior's peak as the Rockers era is to Michaels'.
In both cases he immediately got up and chased the interferer after the three count. The sequence of events for getting him in the casket would take a lot longer than a pin, so he'd be up if Michaels had interference on his behalf, which I'd like to think we weren't using as an argument anyway at this stage in the tournament because it would start to get ridiculous.
When did Warrior lose to an elbow drop, much less the world title?
He lost the world title to Slaughter when about 5 people interfered, including Savage hitting him with various technical equipment and finally his sceptre. That's quite a lot of interference, that's quite unlikely to happen here.
Not that I'm showing off or anything but that would have been January 19, 1991 in Miami, Florida at the 1991 Royal Rumble. Slaughter got the pin with an elbow drop.
Two people did interfere and it's true that Savage hit him with the scepter right before the pin. What that tells me is that Warrior, even at the peak of his career, could in fact be knocked silly by a shot to the head with a hard object by someone comparable to Savage's size. A chair or a bell to the head plus a superkick into the casket sounds like it could work to me.
In both cases he immediately got up and chased the interferer after the three count. The sequence of events for getting him in the casket would take a lot longer than a pin,
How do you figure? All he has to do is go down, which has been done multiple times (scepter to the head, the offense that set up the five elbows), and have the lid slammed, which takes all of one second and doesn't have two slaps of the mat to give him a warning.
Observe how fast it can be done:
[youtube]L268RoS-dVY[/youtube]
Kick to the face, ignore the flag part, slam the lid. Takes all of five seconds, especially if you're faster than the Undertaker, which isn't all that hard to do.
so he'd be up if Michaels had interference on his behalf, which I'd like to think we weren't using as an argument anyway at this stage in the tournament because it would start to get ridiculous.
It would and I'm not. THe thing is though, if Warrior does something stupid, which he's been known to do, a quick shot to the head and a superkick could easily wrap him up. Shawn is more than smart enough to try and go head on at Warrior and he'd figure a way around the intensity.
Not that I'm showing off or anything but that would have been January 19, 1991 in Miami, Florida at the 1991 Royal Rumble. Slaughter got the pin with an elbow drop.
Two people did interfere and it's true that Savage hit him with the scepter right before the pin. What that tells me is that Warrior, even at the peak of his career, could in fact be knocked silly by a shot to the head with a hard object by someone comparable to Savage's size. A chair or a bell to the head plus a superkick into the casket sounds like it could work to me.
It's hardly genuine to say the elbow drop put him away, but I guess he is technically hit with an elbow drop immediately after the hall of famer 7 time world champion hits him on the head with a gold sceptre. I'll let the readers decide which of those was the decisive blow.
He was knocked silly by the object, yes, but that only happened because in the final sequence of that match, lasting about a minute, he is attacked from behind on three separate occasions. That's not going to happen here.
How do you figure? All he has to do is go down, which has been done multiple times (scepter to the head, the offense that set up the five elbows), and have the lid slammed, which takes all of one second and doesn't have two slaps of the mat to give him a warning.
Going down in the casket is a lot easier.
Observe how fast it can be done:
[youtube]L268RoS-dVY[/youtube]
Kick to the face, ignore the flag part, slam the lid. Takes all of five seconds, especially if you're faster than the Undertaker, which isn't all that hard to do.
Warrior is a lot less likely to stay down than Yokozuna, who only falls into the casket because of the fact he's fat and unstable. 90% of other wrestlers would have held on to the ropes there.
It would and I'm not. THe thing is though, if Warrior does something stupid, which he's been known to do, a quick shot to the head and a superkick could easily wrap him up. Shawn is more than smart enough to try and go head on at Warrior and he'd figure a way around the intensity.
1) Warrior's intensity is often associated with stupidity, but how many mistakes has he ever actually made in the ring? Zero that result in his defeat - defeats which have been caused by being struck from behind. When has he been stupid? He has always sought to wrap up matches immediately without showboating. He has rarely been tricked or duped into doing anything he shouldn't, he's been struck from behind.
2) You keep saying Shawn would find a way to win, but there's actually little evidence of him doing this against guys like Warrior in his career. I think it's fair to say Warrior was a hugely charismatic face with big power moves. I think it's also fair to say that the people who fit that description that Michaels wrestled would be Diesel, Cena, Hogan, Undertaker. He lost to the first three, he lost to the last one when he had a straight up match and could only beat him through interference the other time.
He lost to Sid when he was a face, but Sid kind of turned heel in that match, so I won't use it as evidence.
Michaels faced guys like Warrior a few times, but he never beat them. Never found a way of beating them and never reaped the rewards of doing so. Warrior would win here.
Finding an unlikely way to win is certainly not a hallmark of Michaels:
Michaels big run was from WrestleMania XII to WrestleMania XIV:
WrestleMania XII : He beat Bret Hart in sudden death overtime, which Bret Hart didn't even know about.
In Your House 7: He beat Diesel, who was leaving the company and a heel by now, when he hit Diesel with a fake leg that Diesel had brought to the ring and tried to low blow Michaels with. Warrior is unlikely to use a weapon like that and get caught out.
In Your House 8: He drew with Bulldog
King of the Ring 1997: A legitimate win against a heel British Bulldog
In Your House 9: He lost a 6 man tag
Summerslam 1996: He beat Vader at the third time of asking, having already lost. He can't do that here, once he's lost once, Warrior has no reason to restart the match.
In Your House 10: He beat Mankind after Vader attacked him - interference unlikely to happen here.
In Your House 11: He wasn't on the card, but beat Goldust in a dark match for the WWF Championship.
Survivor Series 1996: Lost to Sid, a big power guy face. As I said before, Sid did kind of turn heel in this match, but the crowd also cheered him for hitting Michaels in a face with a TV camera.
In Your House 12: Not on the card, beat Mankind in a dark match.
Royal Rumble 1997: Beat Sid at the second time of asking. The tarpaulin sheets covering the seats in his home town arena go wild.
In Your House 13: Michaels had lost his smile, thus rendering any argument about Warrior's professionalism in this match moot.
WrestleMania 13: Still looking for that smile.
In Your House 14: Still can't find smile.
In Your House 15: Nope, not here either.
King of the Ring 1997: Double DQ with Austin as both attacked referees
In Your House 16: Injured
Summerslam 1997: Special Referee, ***** Undertaker with chair
Ground Zero: Despite Rick Rude, HHH and Chyna interfering on his behalf, he still didn't beat Undertaker, ended as a no contest as about 1000 referees got nailed.
Badd Blood: Wins Hell in A Cell, thanks to Kane
Survivor Series 1997: I'm not sure we should really care about this in a kayfabe tournament, but for what it's worth, the records show he beat Bret Hart by submission.
D-Generation X: Lost to Shamrock, when Chyna and HHH interfered, then got beaten up by Owen Hart.
Royal Rumble 1998: Beat Undertaker in a casket match, thanks to Kane.
No Way Out of Texas: Injured, replaced by Savio Vega.
WrestleMania XIV: Lost to Steve Austin.
I don't see much "finding a way to win" there. To be honest, I don't see much winning there at all.
It's hardly genuine to say the elbow drop put him away, but I guess he is technically hit with an elbow drop immediately after the hall of famer 7 time world champion hits him on the head with a gold sceptre. I'll let the readers decide which of those was the decisive blow.
True. However, I'd think a chair/bell/anything else, including a boot at the end of a standing sidekick, also called a superkick, would suffice as a way to set up something as lame as an elbow.
Much like the elbow, it won't be the closing of the lid that finishes Warrior, but rather what comes before it, which is where Shawn will be more than well served.
He was knocked silly by the object, yes, but that only happened because in the final sequence of that match, lasting about a minute, he is attacked from behind on three separate occasions. That's not going to happen here.
No it won't, though Shawn is a bit of a better/smarter performer than Slaughter and won't need that much assistance.
Warrior is a lot less likely to stay down than Yokozuna, who only falls into the casket because of the fact he's fat and unstable. 90% of other wrestlers would have held on to the ropes there.
And 90% of wrestlers that Shawn superkicks don't get up almost immediately. I'd put the impact of that a bit higher than Undertaker's big boot. It can put down Austin, the Rock, HHH, Undertaker and Hogan, but not Warrior? I don't quite buy that.
There's two interesting points here.
1) Warrior's intensity is often associated with stupidity, but how many mistakes has he ever actually made in the ring? Zero that result in his defeat - defeats which have been caused by being struck from behind. When has he been stupid? He has always sought to wrap up matches immediately without showboating. He has rarely been tricked or duped into doing anything he shouldn't, he's been struck from behind.
He went after Sherri at the Rumble which led to him getting attacked by Savage. That's not too bright.
2) You keep saying Shawn would find a way to win, but there's actually little evidence of him doing this against guys like Warrior in his career. I think it's fair to say Warrior was a hugely charismatic face with big power moves. I think it's also fair to say that the people who fit that description that Michaels wrestled would be Diesel, Cena, Hogan, Undertaker. He lost to the first three, he lost to the last one when he had a straight up match and could only beat him through interference the other time.
Are you talking about Survivor Series 1996? Sid was a full on heel being cheered by the MSG crowd.
Michaels faced guys like Warrior a few times, but he never beat them. Never found a way of beating them and never reaped the rewards of doing so. Warrior would win here.
Well not only did Shawn pin people like Warrior (as in the ones you listed), but he doesn't even have to do that here. He has to catch Warrior, not beat him.
Finding an unlikely way to win is certainly not a hallmark of Michaels:
Michaels big run was from WrestleMania XII to WrestleMania XIV:
Caught him with a superkick after avoiding a charge, another superkick for the clean pin.
In Your House 7: He beat Diesel, who was leaving the company and a heel by now, when he hit Diesel with a fake leg that Diesel had brought to the ring and tried to low blow Michaels with. Warrior is unlikely to use a weapon like that and get caught out.
Summerslam 1996: He beat Vader at the third time of asking, having already lost. He can't do that here, once he's lost once, Warrior has no reason to restart the match.
Lost the first two times via countout and DQ, neither of which apply here. That would be Shawn pinning someone bigger and stronger than he was, like Warrior, without getting pinned himself.
In Your House 10: He beat Mankind after Vader attacked him - interference unlikely to happen here.
Not likely to happen indeed as Shawn won that via DQ.
Survivor Series 1996: Lost to Sid, a big power guy face. As I said before, Sid did kind of turn heel in this match, but the crowd also cheered him for hitting Michaels in a face with a TV camera.
Only lost because of his manager being stupid. Since we've established that interference won't be happening here (I'd assume that includes managers being at ringside), not a factor.
He actually did have a knee injury. Now the severity of it.....not so much but he was injured.
Ground Zero: Despite Rick Rude, HHH and Chyna interfering on his behalf, he still didn't beat Undertaker, ended as a no contest as about 1000 referees got nailed.
So.....he didn't lose and survived a high energy offense from someone who wouldn't stop coming at him. The casket theme is purely coincidental I'm sure.
I see quite a bit of it, including in the casket match. Like you would see here.
Let's turn this around a little. Here are Warrior's memorable wins:
Beat a comedy guy who hadn't won without cheating in years in 30 seconds.
Beat Rick Rude when Roddy Piper interfered
Beat Hulk Hogan in probably the closest match ever
Uh........
Oh he beat Rude again in a cage match when Rude was about a million levels beneath him.
Beat Savage in a classic at Wrestlemania VII
Beat Savage via countout at Summerslam 1992
Unless you want to count those 30 second wins over an almost immobile Andre on the house show circuit, that pretty much wraps up Warrior's important wins list. Yeah he won a handful of big ones, but Shawn had two amazing runs who are basically separate careers. He has the experience, the win/loss record in big matches and has a finisher fast enough to stun Warrior, which is very necessary in something like this.
Warrior was hot for awhile. Shawn was great and had something besides charisma to carry him.
Did Warrior have a match that was over 15 minutes?
Shawn Michaels has been in Iron Man matches and won. If Shawn Michaels can outlast Warrior he's pretty much got this. Warrior was never known for his durability, he was a Wham, Bam Thank You Mam person. Shawn would be smart enough to wear Warrior down and then attack, thus allowing him to put Warrior in the casket
Did Warrior have a match that was over 15 minutes?
Shawn Michaels has been in Iron Man matches and won. If Shawn Michaels can outlast Warrior he's pretty much got this. Warrior was never known for his durability, he was a Wham, Bam Thank You Mam person. Shawn would be smart enough to wear Warrior down and then attack, thus allowing him to put Warrior in the casket
Yes, he has had matches even more than 20 minutes. Against Hulk Hogan at Wrestlemania VI and Randy Savage at Wrestlemania VII.
Also, I don't think that Warrior has ever been worn down.
I'm favoring Ultimate Warrior here. He's durable enough to win this match. He ain't just muscles or something to be dumb. Randy Savage was also similar to Shawn Michaels and he couldn't wear Warrior down.
True. However, I'd think a chair/bell/anything else, including a boot at the end of a standing sidekick, also called a superkick, would suffice as a way to set up something as lame as an elbow.
Much like the elbow, it won't be the closing of the lid that finishes Warrior, but rather what comes before it, which is where Shawn will be more than well served.
Again, more unsubstantiated claims. 'Shawn will be more than well served, despite lots of evidence to the contrary'. With the possible exception of the modern day AA from Cena, there are very few finishers that have been kicked out of as often as Sweet Chin Music. Against the king of no-selling finishers, he hasn't a chance of keeping him down.
No it won't, though Shawn is a bit of a better/smarter performer than Slaughter and won't need that much assistance.
Despite the fact he needed a lot of assistance in lots of his matches, as we have seen.
And 90% of wrestlers that Shawn superkicks don't get up almost immediately. I'd put the impact of that a bit higher than Undertaker's big boot. It can put down Austin, the Rock, HHH, Undertaker and Hogan, but not Warrior? I don't quite buy that.
Because she was attacking him. Savage ran in from the back at that point. What was he supposed to do? Just let Sherri hit him so Slaughter or Savage could nail him from behind?
Beat Diesel for the title
Beat Cena clean
Beat Undertaker multiple times
When did he beat Diesel for the title when Diesel was a face? He beat him as a heel at In Your House 7, in Nash's last televised match, but he lost at WrestleMania XI?
We've discussed the Undertaker, almost all of those wins were BS.
Cena, I guess he won that Raw match, I was more thinking of the WrestleMania one, but fair enough. Still, a pretty poor record.
Are you talking about Survivor Series 1996? Sid was a full on heel being cheered by the MSG crowd.
I don't really think he was booked as a heel in the build up to this match, but whatever, like I said I won't use it. But having the entire audience cheering a heel over your face world champion
Well not only did Shawn pin people like Warrior (as in the ones you listed), but he doesn't even have to do that here. He has to catch Warrior, not beat him.
Yes, but due to a mistake by Diesel that Warrior wouldn't make as it's a total dick heel move.
Lost the first two times via countout and DQ, neither of which apply here. That would be Shawn pinning someone bigger and stronger than he was, like Warrior, without getting pinned himself.
Pinning is also irrelevant here. What this match showed is that while a wily in ring guy, Michaels could be beaten to defeat - by count out, and allowed his frustrations to get the better of him - hence the second defeat.
He actually did have a knee injury. Now the severity of it.....not so much but he was injured.
Ok, but when I said he was injured, he was actually suspended for getting his arse kicked by Bret Hart after starting a fight back stage, so we'll call it quits.
So.....he didn't lose and survived a high energy offense from someone who wouldn't stop coming at him. The casket theme is purely coincidental I'm sure.
I don't know what you're talking about here. It was a no contest after three people interfered on his behalf, nailed a load of referees and he still couldn't beat Taker. I suppose he didn't lose, no, but he didn't win with a lot of help.
As Bear Bryant once said (maybe): I stopped listening after you said he won.
Right, so he beat everyone put before him including the two biggest names of his era totally without any interference or technicalities, or mid-match rule changes.
He beat everyone put in front of him.
Unless you want to count those 30 second wins over an almost immobile Andre on the house show circuit, that pretty much wraps up Warrior's important wins list. Yeah he won a handful of big ones, but Shawn had two amazing runs who are basically separate careers. He has the experience, the win/loss record in big matches and has a finisher fast enough to stun Warrior, which is very necessary in something like this.
Warrior beat everyone he faced. I am not disputing Michaels' achievements, and I think that he shouldn't be going out at this stage, but I don't think he should go out to a man who had a more impressive win loss record, who drew more TV ratings and sold more tickets than him.
Warrior is a lot more impressive in kayfabe, and I don't think you've offered any satisfactory evidence to the contrary.
Look, if Michaels was the type of heel like Ric Flair that won by dirty tricks, this line of argument might hold some water, but not really as Warrior used to beat guys like that. But Michaels was the kind of heel that won by interference, something we can both agree is not on the table in a tournament like this.
Warrior was hot for awhile. Shawn was great and had something besides charisma to carry him.
Warrior was a huge attraction from 1987 to 1992 in the WWF. People treat that like it's some sort of flash in the pan, but it's only a year or so shorter than Austin and The Rock, it's not like we are talking about Khali or someone here. Warrior was champion for about 100 days less than Michaels, at a time when there was a lot more competition for that spot.
Warrior goes out at about this stage every year because the guy was a bit of a dick and the WWE and his peers spent a lot of time burying him, so people don't give him the respect his career deserves. Maybe, because of his reconciliation and his death we are starting to come out of the other side of that.
The fact remains, Warrior was a top guy for about 5 years. Michaels was a top guy for longer, but his time as the face of the company was around 2 years, the same as it was for Warrior
Did Warrior have a match that was over 15 minutes?
Shawn Michaels has been in Iron Man matches and won. If Shawn Michaels can outlast Warrior he's pretty much got this. Warrior was never known for his durability, he was a Wham, Bam Thank You Mam person. Shawn would be smart enough to wear Warrior down and then attack, thus allowing him to put Warrior in the casket
Warrior won his only matches that went over 20 minutes. Against Hogan and Savage, two of the best professional wrestlers of all time. His matches against everyone else didn't go that long because he was so much better than them.
Again, more unsubstantiated claims. 'Shawn will be more than well served, despite lots of evidence to the contrary'. With the possible exception of the modern day AA from Cena, there are very few finishers that have been kicked out of as often as Sweet Chin Music. Against the king of no-selling finishers, he hasn't a chance of keeping him down.
Oh I think he would be. He's been knocked out by a scepter and a chair. A well timed superkick isn't that far off.
Because she was attacking him. Savage ran in from the back at that point. What was he supposed to do? Just let Sherri hit him so Slaughter or Savage could nail him from behind?
Or move away from the ropes so he couldn't. He knew Sherri was in league with someone who wanted his title and earlier that night had been offered sexual favors in exchange for a title shot. Wouldn't you think this might be part of a trap? Again: Warrior wasn't that bright.
When did he beat Diesel for the title when Diesel was a face? He beat him as a heel at In Your House 7, in Nash's last televised match, but he lost at WrestleMania XI?
Better than Warrior's by a pretty wide margin. Certainly more big wins.
I don't really think he was booked as a heel in the build up to this match, but whatever, like I said I won't use it. But having the entire audience cheering a heel over your face world champion
He was certainly edgier but not a full on heel. They were just about to turn him full on though. The turn was going to come around the Rumble but they realized doing that in his hometown would have been the dumbest thing they could have done so he stayed a face instead, at least until the summer.
Also I wouldn't use that as an argument for Warrior. There was a SNME where Warrior was advertised to go on last and the lights had to be turned way down as the fans were just leaving in droves and the arena looked empty. Warrior was tanking the company during his reign, hence him basically being thrown into the opener of Survivor Series 1990 as an afterthought.
He has to beat him more decisively than hoping Kane will nail him and he can fall on top of him.
WWF President Roddy Piper said there must be a winner. Therefore, Bret should have known there would be something other than a draw. That's not on Shawn.
Yes, but due to a mistake by Diesel that Warrior wouldn't make as it's a total dick heel move.
No, but he might do something stupid like talk to his hands for a good minute without looking at his opponent (Wrestlemania VII). That sounds like a prime opening to hit him low and shove him into a casket don't you think?
Pinning is also irrelevant here. What this match showed is that while a wily in ring guy, Michaels could be beaten to defeat - by count out, and allowed his frustrations to get the better of him - hence the second defeat.
Then what does Warrior have to go on? A countout over Savage?
I don't know what you're talking about here. It was a no contest after three people interfered on his behalf, nailed a load of referees and he still couldn't beat Taker. I suppose he didn't lose, no, but he didn't win with a lot of help.
What I mean is despite all that brawling and getting the heck beaten out of him (which he did), Shawn came out even against Undertaker and was not beaten. Now I don't think it's a stretch to say that Undertaker is a much more cerebral and physical wrestler than Warrior. If Shawn can survive him, he can survive Warrior.
Well, Warrior beat the guy who everyone lost to in his day.
So.....the same as Shawn did to Cena? And Undertaker? Diesel? Hart?
Right, so he beat everyone put before him including the two biggest names of his era totally without any interference or technicalities, or mid-match rule changes.
Warrior beat everyone he faced. I am not disputing Michaels' achievements, and I think that he shouldn't be going out at this stage, but I don't think he should go out to a man who had a more impressive win loss record, who drew more TV ratings and sold more tickets than him.
There's no other way to put this: you're flat out wrong on Warrior's drawing power. His time on top was nothing short of a disaster for the company to the point where, I kid you not, Tugboat was being considered as a potential main eventer. That's how bad things got with Warrior on top.
Warrior is a lot more impressive in kayfabe, and I don't think you've offered any satisfactory evidence to the contrary.
Getting pinned by Rick Rude and Sgt. Slaughter isn't exactly the best sign for your in-ring abilities.
Look, if Michaels was the type of heel like Ric Flair that won by dirty tricks, this line of argument might hold some water, but not really as Warrior used to beat guys like that. But Michaels was the kind of heel that won by interference, something we can both agree is not on the table in a tournament like this.
True, but when Shawn was a face, he wasn't exactly one to lose very often and was billed as the guy who would win despite overwhelming odds. Shawn was a better face than a heel and I'd go with that as his prime far more than this.
Warrior was a huge attraction from 1987 to 1992 in the WWF.
He was a box office disaster. Likely worse than Shawn, but they're not exactly comparable eras.
People treat that like it's some sort of flash in the pan, but it's only a year or so shorter than Austin and The Rock, it's not like we are talking about Khali or someone here. Warrior was champion for about 100 days less than Michaels, at a time when there was a lot more competition for that spot.
Not a fair comparison on the number of days. Shawn was champion in the Monday Night Raw era, which is completely different from four pay per views a year and SNME. If you want more proof, look at Ric Flair's title reigns. Once Nitro started up, none of his title reigns broke three months. Long title reigns in that era mostly did not exist, unless your name was Hogan and you basically ran the company.
Warrior goes out at about this stage every year because the guy was a bit of a dick and the WWE and his peers spent a lot of time burying him, so people don't give him the respect his career deserves. Maybe, because of his reconciliation and his death we are starting to come out of the other side of that.
In response to that, I would point you to his comeback in 1996, about four years after he left the WWF in the first place. In short, it was a disaster and he went nuts again and got fired. His WCW run speaks for itself. Shawn came back four and a half years later and had another Hall of Fame quality run. He re-invented himself and was a big star all over again working a different, safer style.
Warrior came back as the same guy and bombed huge. Yeah he was over in the early 90s, but it didn't have any real staying power and he never could recreate it. Shawn did recreate his magic like no one has ever done before.
The fact remains, Warrior was a top guy for about 5 years.
Incorrect. Warrior was NOTHING until he won the Intercontinental Title at Summerslam 1988 (Watch the 1988 Royal Rumble when he's just another guy. This was followed by a filler midcard match with Hercules at Wrestlemania IV.) and then did pretty much nothing for the next year. He beat up a bunch of jobbers and then lost to Rude in a huge upset. Nothing happened over the summer until he got the title back at Summerslam.
THEN he was a top guy, especially with the Royal Rumble 1990 showdown with Hogan. He's the champion from April 1990 to January 1991 (with the box office dying around him), main events Summerslam 1991 and is fired that night. He's gone for seven and a half months, comes back for a silly feud with Papa Shango, a good match with Savage, and is gone again by Survivor Series. His 1996 return started on March 31 and he was gone before the middle of July.
That gives you, at a stretch, three and a half years, assuming you count his first reign as Intercontinental Champion as him being a top guy. There's no way to stretch that to five years.
Michaels was a top guy for longer, but his time as the face of the company was around 2 years, the same as it was for Warrior
Warrior was the face of the company for a year tops. He main evented a total of one pay per view as World Champion and that was billed as half of a double main event.
When a match in this tournament comes up that I'm on the fence about, I sit back and read the arguments to help make up my mind. That is what I have done here and the arguments for Warrior are much stronger, made this an easy decision. I've seen UW take multiple Savage flying elbows and withstand punishment from a near invincible Hulk Hogan and still come back and win, I don't see a superkick incapacitating him to the point he gets locked in a coffin. I also believe Warrior's record against Undertaker in bodybag matches is another strong argument. Michaels had the greater legacy overall but the stipulation here favors the Ultimate Warrior greatly and he gets my vote to take the win.
It's quite far off. I'm not sure which match you're referring to with the chair? The one in WCW maybe? But even so, a weapon strike to the back of your head by someone not involved in the match, is not the same as a standard move to the front of your head in a match.
Or move away from the ropes so he couldn't. He knew Sherri was in league with someone who wanted his title and earlier that night had been offered sexual favors in exchange for a title shot. Wouldn't you think this might be part of a trap? Again: Warrior wasn't that bright.
He throws Sherri out of the ring at Savage, he then gets cheap shotted from behind and lands on the ropes, then Savage gets up and hits him. What could he have possibly done differently with Sherri, Savage and Slaughter all on him (not to mention Slaughter's pals who had already attacked him earlier)?
More wins doesn't mean a better win loss record. Reggie Strickland won 66 professional boxing matches at super middleweight, much more than Floyd Mayweather's 49. Trouble is, Strickland lost 276 matches. Having more wins doesn't give you a better record.
He was certainly edgier but not a full on heel. They were just about to turn him full on though. The turn was going to come around the Rumble but they realized doing that in his hometown would have been the dumbest thing they could have done so he stayed a face instead, at least until the summer.
Also I wouldn't use that as an argument for Warrior. There was a SNME where Warrior was advertised to go on last and the lights had to be turned way down as the fans were just leaving in droves and the arena looked empty. Warrior was tanking the company during his reign, hence him basically being thrown into the opener of Survivor Series 1990 as an afterthought.
But Warrior didn't go on last in any episode of Saturday Night's Main Event that was ever broadcast. As for Survivor Series 1990, he did also score the winning pinfall in the main event.
WWF President Roddy Piper said there must be a winner. Therefore, Bret should have known there would be something other than a draw. That's not on Shawn.
No, it's not, and I wouldn't claim it was on Shawn, but he won the match only because the rules changed half way through, which won't happen here.
No, but he might do something stupid like talk to his hands for a good minute without looking at his opponent (Wrestlemania VII). That sounds like a prime opening to hit him low and shove him into a casket don't you think?
The problem with these quote replies is that the context is lost. You said the fact that Vader beat Michaels by count out and dq was irrelevant as they couldn't win him the match here. They are just as irrelevant as Michaels' win by pinball in the same match. I'm happy to include all three in my argument, because they were ways of winning that match at that time. You want to discredit the ones where Shawn lost because they don't apply in this circumstance. You can't do that and include the pinball win, because that wouldn't either.
What I mean is despite all that brawling and getting the heck beaten out of him (which he did), Shawn came out even against Undertaker and was not beaten. Now I don't think it's a stretch to say that Undertaker is a much more cerebral and physical wrestler than Warrior. If Shawn can survive him, he can survive Warrior.
With the exception of Hart, he has a pretty even record against those wrestlers. Perhaps what I should have said was that Warrior beat all of his contemporaries a lot more than they beat him.
Shawn beat the biggest name of his era clean in a 55 minute match. That's pretty good for him as well.
Yep, it is. He also lost to the same guy in the bigger match.
There's no other way to put this: you're flat out wrong on Warrior's drawing power. His time on top was nothing short of a disaster for the company to the point where, I kid you not, Tugboat was being considered as a potential main eventer. That's how bad things got with Warrior on top.
What's the actual evidence for that outside of a load of disgruntled wrestlers that shit on Warrior in interviews. If Warrior was such a bad draw, Vince would not have been at pains to bring him back after he had behaved like a complete prick. Warrior was drawing 10.0 to SNME, that's less than Hogan, but it dropped to like 8 pretty much immediately after he was dethroned.
The 84 weeks that Nitro was beating Raw all happened on Michaels' watch, and the tide turned the other way immediately. Nitro was pretty much only a competitor for Raw between 1996 and 1998, when Michaels was the WWF's main guy. It would be unfair to blame that all on Michaels, just as it would to blame the early 90s slump on Warrior.
Getting pinned by Rick Rude and Sgt. Slaughter isn't exactly the best sign for your in-ring abilities.
Rick Rude and Sgt. Slaughter are hall of fame wrestlers that beat Warrior thanks to interference from the best heel manager ever and one of the best wrestlers ever respectively. Warrior avenged both defeats against them.
This is the thing, if Sgt. Slaughter is an embarrassing pinfall loss, then what is Marty Janetty? If losing to Rick Rude in his physical prime is bad, then what is being pinned by Ric Flair in his 50s?
I haven't brought these kinds of defeat up, because it's not fair to an outstanding performer like Michaels, but if you are going to treat Warrior's defeats like a stain, Michaels has many more against much worse wrestlers.
True, but when Shawn was a face, he wasn't exactly one to lose very often and was billed as the guy who would win despite overwhelming odds. Shawn was a better face than a heel and I'd go with that as his prime far more than this.
Starting with his win against Hart in 1996 and ending with losing his smile in 1997, Michaels beat Hart after drawing the initial part of the match, beat Diesel, who was leaving the company, beat Bulldog at the second time of asking, beat Vader having lost to him twice in the same match, beat Mankind by DQ and beat Sid at the second time of asking. That's not a dominant run.
In his second run as a face, after his injury, his record on PPV was (14-24-1), if you don't include Royal Rumble or tag matches and the match against Hogan when he was a heel (if you do include these, it's an even worse picture). Not only is that not a strong winning record, it's not even a good losing record.
The analysis of this is below. What you should notice is that at no point in the 8 year run did Michaels have a winning record, and with the exception of beating Flair, Batista and Jericho in a row in 2008, and the McMahons and Spirit Squad with DX, Shawn Michaels did not win in consecutive matches on pay per view for that entire run. That is not dominant.
Summerslam 2002 - Lost to Triple H (0 -1)
Survivor Series 2002 - Won an elimination chamber match, though he was the final entrant (1-1)
Armageddon 2002 - Lost to Triple H (1-2)
After this he was never World Champion again, but lets keep it going...
Royal Rumble 2003 - First Eliminated (I won't include this, it's a little harsh, 1-2)
WrestleMania XIX - Beat Jericho (2-2)
Backlash 2003 - Lost tag match, I won't include that either (2-2)
Bad Blood 2003 - Lost to Ric Flair (2-3)
Summerslam 2003 - Lost elimination chamber (2-4)
Unforgiven 2003 - Lost to Randy Orton (2-5)
Survivor Series 2003 - Lost Survivor Series match, won't include (2-5)
Armageddon 2003 - Beat Batista (3-5)
Royal Rumble 2004 - Draw with Triple H (3-5-1)
WrestleMania XX - Lost to Benoit in Triple Threat (3-6-1)
Backlash 2004 - Lost to Benoit in Triple Threat (3-7-1)
Bad Blood 2004 - Lost to Triple H (3-8-1)
Unforgiven 2004 - Beat Kane (4-8-1)
Taboo Tuesday 2004 - Lost to Triple H (4-9-1)
Royal Rumble 2005 - Lost to Edge, eliminated in Rumble (4-10-1)
WrestleMania 21 - Lost to Kurt Angle (4-11-1)
Backlash 2005 - Won tag match with Hogan, not included (4-11-1)
Vengeance 2005 - Beat Angle (5-11-1)
Summerslam 2005 - Lost to Hulk Hogan, not included as he was a heel in this match. (5-11-1)
Unforgiven 2005 - Beat Chris Masters (6-11-1)
Taboo Tuesday 2005 - Lost to John Cena in a triple threat (6-12-1)
Survivor Series 2005 - Lost Survivor Series Match, not included (6-12-1)
New Year's Revolution 2005 - Lost Elimination chamber (6-13-1)
Royal Rumble 2006 - Eliminated from match by Shane McMahon, not included (6-13-1)
WrestleMania 22 - Beat Vince McMahon (7-13-1)
Backlash 2006 - Lost to McMahons in tag match with God, not included (7-13-1)
Vengeance 2006 - Beat Spirit Squad with DX, not included (7-13-1)
Summerslam 2006 - Beat McMahons with DX, not included (7-13-1)
Unforgiven 2006 - Beat McMahons and Big Show with DX, not included (7-13-1)
Cyber Sunday 2006 - Lost to Rated- RKO with DX, not included (7-13-1)
Survivor Series 2006 - Won Survivor Series match, not included (7-13-1)
New Year's Revolution 2007 - No contest with Rated-RKO with DX, not included (7-13-1)
Royal Rumble 2007 - last eliminated, not included (7-13-1)
No Way Out 2007 - won tag match with Cena, not included (7-13-1)
WrestleMania 23 - Lost to Cena (7-14-1)
Backlash 2007 - Lost fatal 4-way to Cena (7-15-1)
Judgment Day 2007 - Lost to Orton (7-16-1)
Cyber Sunday 2007 - Beat Orton by DQ (8-16-1)
Survivor Series 2007 - Lost to Orton (8-17-1)
Armageddon 2007 - Beat Mr. Kennedy (9-17-1)
Royal Rumble 2008 - Eliminated by Mr. Kennedy, not included (9-17-1)
No Way Out 2008 - Lost Elimination Chamber (9-18-1)
WrestleMania XXIV - Beat Ric Flair (10-18-1)
Backlash 2008 - Beat Batista (11-18-1)
Judgement Day 2008 - Beat Jericho (12-18-1)
One Night Stand 2008 - Lost to Batista (12-19-1)
Great American Bash 2008 - Lost to Jericho (12-20-1)
Unforgiven 2008 - Beat Jericho (13-20-1)
No Mercy 2008 - Lost to Jericho (13-21-1)
Survivor Series 2008 - Won Survivor Series match, not included (13-21-1)
No Way Out 2009 - Beat JBL (14-21-1)
WrestleMania XXV - Lost to Undertaker (14-22-1)
Summerslam 2009 - Beat Legacy with DX, not included (14-22-1)
Breaking Point 2009 - Lost to Legacy with DX, not included (14-22-1)
Hell in a Cell 2009 - Beat Legacy with DX, not included (14-22-1)
Bragging Rights 2009 - Lost 14 man tag match, not included (14-22-1)
Survivor Series 2009 - Lost to Cena in Triple Threat (14-23-1)
TLC 2009 - Beat Jerishow with DX, not included (14-23-1)
Royal Rumble 2010 - Eliminated by Batista, not included (14-23-1)
WrestleMania XXVI - Lost to Undertaker (14-24-1)
Not a fair comparison on the number of days. Shawn was champion in the Monday Night Raw era, which is completely different from four pay per views a year and SNME. If you want more proof, look at Ric Flair's title reigns. Once Nitro started up, none of his title reigns broke three months. Long title reigns in that era mostly did not exist, unless your name was Hogan and you basically ran the company.
Ok, fair enough, but in the same way numbers of titles between the two periods is also difficult to compare - Hogan would have won a shitload of titles in the Attitude Era, for example.
What you can do, is compare their reigns with with their contemporaries. The two reigns either side of Warrior's reign and his reign were on average 268 days long. Warrior's was 293. So his was not spectacular, but about right for the period, maybe a bit longer.
To do the same with Michaels' early career, starting with the two before his run of three titles and taking in the two after the total average was
109 and his was 132. Again, unspectacular, but about right for the time - it is fair to say that their time as champ was comparable with each other, even though Warrior's reign was longer and Michaels had more reigns.
In response to that, I would point you to his comeback in 1996, about four years after he left the WWF in the first place. In short, it was a disaster and he went nuts again and got fired. His WCW run speaks for itself. Shawn came back four and a half years later and had another Hall of Fame quality run. He re-invented himself and was a big star all over again working a different, safer style.
Warrior came back as the same guy and bombed huge. Yeah he was over in the early 90s, but it didn't have any real staying power and he never could recreate it. Shawn did recreate his magic like no one has ever done before.
Watch those episodes of Raw again. Warrior may have been a total liability backstage but in front of the cameras, he was loved in that second run. He was getting louder pops than anyone at the time, including Michaels, who was probably behind Ahmed Johnson too. To us, that's obviously ludicrous, but it wasn't the audience of today, it was an audience that was chanting '******' at Goldust, and Michaels did not connect with them as a face, that's why they turned him heel. I suspect McMahon thought that might happen and it's why he brought the Warrior back in the first place.
The personal lives of both men aren't on trial here, Michaels changed his personality, came back as much less of a prima donna and had a lot of great fights in his second career. Warrior's 1996 run was a total bust because he got sacked before he could do anything, but his actual in ring and on screen popularity was still high.
Incorrect. Warrior was NOTHING until he won the Intercontinental Title at Summerslam 1988 (Watch the 1988 Royal Rumble when he's just another guy. This was followed by a filler midcard match with Hercules at Wrestlemania IV.) and then did pretty much nothing for the next year. He beat up a bunch of jobbers and then lost to Rude in a huge upset. Nothing happened over the summer until he got the title back at Summerslam.
THEN he was a top guy, especially with the Royal Rumble 1990 showdown with Hogan. He's the champion from April 1990 to January 1991 (with the box office dying around him), main events Summerslam 1991 and is fired that night. He's gone for seven and a half months, comes back for a silly feud with Papa Shango, a good match with Savage, and is gone again by Survivor Series. His 1996 return started on March 31 and he was gone before the middle of July.
That gives you, at a stretch, three and a half years, assuming you count his first reign as Intercontinental Champion as him being a top guy. There's no way to stretch that to five years.
I probably wasn't clear on this. I'm not trying to compare Warrior's longevity to Michaels', first and foremost. Michaels was an active WWF employee for almost 20 years, and was probably pushed for about 15 years in total from 1991-98, then 2002-10.
Warrior came in and was pushed from 87-92. You're right to say he wasn't a top guy for all of that time, and I probably shouldn't have said that. In the same way though, Rock and Austin, who I compared him to, were not top guys for the whole time they were pushed either, but were pushed for similar times. Rock debuted in late 1996, was champion by 1998 and was gone by early 2003, for all intents and purposes. Austin's push started in 1996, and he was also done by 2003, with huge lay offs in the mean time. I don't think Warrior was around longer than them, but it's comparable, and they never get shit on in the same way for being a flash in the pan.
Warrior was the face of the company for a year tops. He main evented a total of one pay per view as World Champion and that was billed as half of a double main event.
There were only three PPVs in the time he was champion. He won the title at WrestleMania 6, which he main evented. He beat Rude in the main event of the next PPV Summerslam. He then won the main event match at Survivor Series, pinning Hercules for the win in the match of survival. Otherwise, you could look at the promotion of the time which had the Warriors vs The Perfect Team and Hulkamaniacs vs The Natural Disasters as equal billing main events. Either way, Warrior was the main event there. He didn't main event the Royal Rumble, because that was main evented by the Royal Rumble match as it was every year from 1989-1995.
It's not a stellar record, but it's not bad. Remember, Shawn Michaels was in the only pre-brand split WrestleMania that didn't have the WWF title match as the main event.
I can! It was a neck snap across the top rope. Again, not exactly the combined efforts of a Stunner/Rock Bottom/shotgun to the face. When Warrior is worn down, he can be dropped by something pretty simple, just like anyone else.
Hogan for one. The thing is though a splash in the middle of the ring isn't the best option for stunning someone enough to put them in a casket. Kicking them in the jaw could do it quite well, especially if Warrior is knocked towards the casket.
Warrior didn't need assistance for any of his wins.
Point being? Shawn won all those matches within the rules. Same as Warrior.
It's quite far off. I'm not sure which match you're referring to with the chair? The one in WCW maybe? But even so, a weapon strike to the back of your head by someone not involved in the match, is not the same as a standard move to the front of your head in a match.
Not really. If Hogan hitting Warrior int he back with a chair can knock him down long enough for a pin, a chair to the back is going to be enough to stun you to put you in a casket. I really don't get why this is so complicated.
He throws Sherri out of the ring at Savage, he then gets cheap shotted from behind and lands on the ropes, then Savage gets up and hits him. What could he have possibly done differently with Sherri, Savage and Slaughter all on him (not to mention Slaughter's pals who had already attacked him earlier)?
Well he could have stayed in the ring and gotten a DQ win instead of running around like a crazy man. Slaughter didn't follow him and capitalized on the error and won.
Like Shawn would do.
So to clarify, he didn't win against Diesel when Diesel was a face, which is precisely what I said in the first place?
No, though that wasn't when Shawn was at his peak either.
More wins doesn't mean a better win loss record. Reggie Strickland won 66 professional boxing matches at super middleweight, much more than Floyd Mayweather's 49. Trouble is, Strickland lost 276 matches. Having more wins doesn't give you a better record.
No but watching Shawn and watching Warrior should tell you all you need to know about who was better. Throw in longevity and overall skill and this is a laughable argument at best.
But Warrior didn't go on last in any episode of Saturday Night's Main Event that was ever broadcast. As for Survivor Series 1990, he did also score the winning pinfall in the main event.
That's because SNME didn't follow a normal structure. The big names would be on earlier because the show ended at close to 1am. Once Hogan wrestled and Warrior was the big name left, the crowd vanished.
Yes he did. And the show was reformatted the next year because 1990's show was such a disaster.
No, it's not, and I wouldn't claim it was on Shawn, but he won the match only because the rules changed half way through, which won't happen here.
I have never understood your hangup with this as you've brought it up in almost every Shawn vs. Bret debate. The rules weren't changed. The winner would be the most falls in an hour. Piper said there must be a winner. Since no one had more falls, there wasn't a winner and the match continued. That's not changing the rules.
Not really. Savage was much more of a attack from behind kind of guy than Michaels, and he couldn't get that done, so I don't see it here.
He got it done enough to snap Warrior's neck across the top and hit an elbow, followed by four more. That move takes WAY longer to set up than the superkick, which can be hit in about a second and a half.
The problem with these quote replies is that the context is lost.
You said the fact that Vader beat Michaels by count out and dq was irrelevant as they couldn't win him the match here. They are just as irrelevant as Michaels' win by pinball in the same match. I'm happy to include all three in my argument, because they were ways of winning that match at that time. You want to discredit the ones where Shawn lost because they don't apply in this circumstance. You can't do that and include the pinball win, because that wouldn't either.
Nope. See also the Cell, where he survived for a good twenty minutes on his own before Kane came in.
With the exception of Hart, he has a pretty even record against those wrestlers. Perhaps what I should have said was that Warrior beat all of his contemporaries a lot more than they beat him.
Who cares how much he beat them by? Shawn has to win once here, which he would because Warrior probably stops to load the spaceship with the rocket fuel.
What's the actual evidence for that outside of a load of disgruntled wrestlers that shit on Warrior in interviews. If Warrior was such a bad draw, Vince would not have been at pains to bring him back after he had behaved like a complete prick. Warrior was drawing 10.0 to SNME, that's less than Hogan, but it dropped to like 8 pretty much immediately after he was dethroned.
The Observer mainly. Back in the Warrior's reign, houses were WAY down all over the country. People just weren't interested.
Bringing him back is one thing. Putting the title on him and trusting him as the top guy is another. Shawn came back and got the title again in 2002. For years they begged him to take it again but he said no. Warrior came back to the company twice and didn't make it a year either time.
The 84 weeks that Nitro was beating Raw all happened on Michaels' watch, and the tide turned the other way immediately. Nitro was pretty much only a competitor for Raw between 1996 and 1998, when Michaels was the WWF's main guy. It would be unfair to blame that all on Michaels, just as it would to blame the early 90s slump on Warrior.
Shawn wasn't the champion for most of 1997 when WCW's lead was the strongest. He wasn't even wrestling from the end of January until late May and then he came back in an upper midcard role. Bret and Undertaker were the top stars for most of that year. Michaels wrestled two big matches in 1998 and by then Austin was leading the charge against WCW. Shawn can really only be blamed for the 1996 stuff and Steve Austin in his prime would have had issues against the freshly heel Hogan.
Rick Rude and Sgt. Slaughter are hall of fame wrestlers that beat Warrior thanks to interference from the best heel manager ever and one of the best wrestlers ever respectively. Warrior avenged both defeats against them.
He avenged the Rude loss with help from Roddy Piper. Unless you mean on a show in Japan or by DQ on SNME, he didn't exactly destroy Slaughter to avenge his loss.
This is the thing, if Sgt. Slaughter is an embarrassing pinfall loss, then what is Marty Janetty? If losing to Rick Rude in his physical prime is bad, then what is being pinned by Ric Flair in his 50s?
Jannetty is hardly a bad loss given how well received those matches were.
I'd put it on par with losing to a 42 year old Sgt. Slaughter via an elbow drop.
Starting with his win against Hart in 1996 and ending with losing his smile in 1997, Michaels beat Hart after drawing the initial part of the match, beat Diesel, who was leaving the company, beat Bulldog at the second time of asking, beat Vader having lost to him twice in the same match, beat Mankind by DQ and beat Sid at the second time of asking. That's not a dominant run.
Winning all of his matches and feuds isn't a dominant run?
For the sake of keeping this from going into War and Peace territory, I'll ignore the 2002 run stuff and call his first run his peak.
What you can do, is compare their reigns with with their contemporaries. The two reigns either side of Warrior's reign and his reign were on average 268 days long. Warrior's was 293. So his was not spectacular, but about right for the period, maybe a bit longer.
The thing I'd look at there is the never again. If someone with as many issues as Shawn could be trusted with the title over and over, what does it say that Warrior could only get it once?
Watch those episodes of Raw again. Warrior may have been a total liability backstage but in front of the cameras, he was loved in that second run. He was getting louder pops than anyone at the time, including Michaels, who was probably behind Ahmed Johnson too. To us, that's obviously ludicrous, but it wasn't the audience of today, it was an audience that was chanting '******' at Goldust, and Michaels did not connect with them as a face, that's why they turned him heel. I suspect McMahon thought that might happen and it's why he brought the Warrior back in the first place.
Basically he brought Warrior back because he was a big name before and it might have been worth another shot for a nostalgia run (very reasonable).
It worked for a bit and then Warrior fizzled out in less than four months because while the fans were popping, they weren't watching for him.
I probably wasn't clear on this. I'm not trying to compare Warrior's longevity to Michaels', first and foremost. Michaels was an active WWF employee for almost 20 years, and was probably pushed for about 15 years in total from 1991-98, then 2002-10.
I know this isn't the point but he wasn't pushed until late 88 at the earliest.
You're right to say he wasn't a top guy for all of that time, and I probably shouldn't have said that. In the same way though, Rock and Austin, who I compared him to, were not top guys for the whole time they were pushed either, but were pushed for similar times. Rock debuted in late 1996, was champion by 1998 and was gone by early 2003, for all intents and purposes. Austin's push started in 1996, and he was also done by 2003, with huge lay offs in the mean time. I don't think Warrior was around longer than them, but it's comparable, and they never get shit on in the same way for being a flash in the pan.
They don't, but they also drew a fortune for the company, had far better matches on a consistent basis and didn't hold Vince up for money/no show a bunch of house shows. You can get away with a lot more when you're the biggest stars in history.
There were only three PPVs in the time he was champion. He won the title at WrestleMania 6, which he main evented.
I don't think you can count Wrestlemania VI as him main eventing a show as champion when he was champion for all of five minutes of the broadcast. He wasn't champion during the main event.
He beat Rude in the main event of the next PPV Summerslam.
With Hogan by his side again as Warrior wasn't drawing well enough on his own.
Otherwise, you could look at the promotion of the time which had the Warriors vs The Perfect Team and Hulkamaniacs vs The Natural Disasters as equal billing main events.
Really not a good sign that he's main evented two shows as champion and has been in the co-main event both times.
Either way, Warrior was the main event there. He didn't main event the Royal Rumble, because that was main evented by the Royal Rumble match as it was every year from 1989-1995.
True. Hogan gets the spot again as they can't get the title off of Warrior fast enough. Hogan vs. Earthquake drew very well around that time. Warrior vs. anyone didn't.
Anyway we've gotten WAY off the focus here, as is almost always the case in these things (though that's the fun of it).
The point of this is very simple: Warrior is hardly this unstoppable juggernaut that has no weaknesses. Yeah he flew around and had a lot of high impact offense, but so did Goldberg and look what happened to him this past Sunday when he missed a single spear (or just look at Warrior when he missed a flying tackle against Hogan or Savage).
Shawn can't go power move vs. power move with him but he's going to have the advantage in speed. Duck a tackle, avoid a charge, heck even jump over one like he did to Bret at Wrestlemania and score with a superkick and Warrior is going to be in trouble. You get Warrior shaken up and he's the same as anyone else.
Shawn doesn't have to beat Warrior clean via pinfall (which he could do). He has to get him to one place and close a box. You get Warrior near there and give him one good shot and this is over.
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