Calgary Region, Second Round: (3) Hart Foundation vs. (35) Kobashi and Misawa

[klunderbunker]

This is a second round match in the Calgary Region. It's a standard tag team match held in the Calgary Saddledome.

3. Hart Foundation

Vs.

35. Kenta Kobashi and Mitsuharu Misawa

Vote for who you feel is the better team. The poll will be open for FOUR days starting approximately twenty four hours after this thread is posted. Use the time to argue and defend your choices. In the case of a tie, the team with more written votes will win. Only one vote per user.

Remember that this is a non-spam section and posts that do not meet our spam requirements will not count.

​

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Most people are going to say this is an easy win for the Hart Foundation, that's just not true in any way.When this team was formed it was a massive deal. Misawa was a world champion and Kenta Kobashi was nipping at his heals. And when you first look at their accomplishments they don't seem to be that impressive. Until you look deeper. Two time world tag team champions (that seems meh at first) until you look at how they won and even lost the titles once.

In 1993 Misawa and Kenta Kobashi went into the World's Strongest Tag Determination League and in a round robin tourney won the tag titles. Not only did they win but they didn't lose a single match. Then they go almost a whole year and they didn't lose a single tag match.

In 1994 AJPW vacates the Tag team titles to put them up in the World's Strongest Tag Determination League once more. And the team that never lost the titles, well they won the tourney once more. Becoming the tag champions once more.

Oh and while they were still tag team champions in 1995 what happened? They won The World's Strongest Tag Determination League once more! So three years straight years in a tourney, they dominated. For their two years they were undefeated and looked unbeatable, even in the extremely demanding tournaments in Japan, they'd have not only an advantage here but they have the fact that they were basically invincible. These two men were the top two guys both world champions and the most dominate team in Japan for years. The only thing that stop them was their singles careers.

The fact is that the hart foundation was a good team for their time. But honestly were they even close to dominating their division in WWE at that time? Were they the second best team? Maybe the third? Or fourth? Brainbusters, Road Warriors, British Bulldogs, Demolition, all great teams you can PUT above them.

Yes that era of tag wrestling was great but people forget that was a short period. The brainbusters tagged for a total of two years. THAT'S IT. The Road warriors didn't come to WWF until 1990. Demolition didn't start until 1987. The hart foundation started in 1985 and while a good team they were a dominate team in any way.

They accomplished less in five years than teams like the brainbusters did in two, they accomplished less in five years than Misawa and Kobashi imo. The most dominate team in this tournament

Misawa and Kobashi are used to demanding tournaments where they are tested. They were almost unbeatable and the fact is the hart foundation wasn't. Misawa and Kobashi would win this in what most would see as an upset imo.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Oh and before it's brought up Misawa and Kobashi aren't just another another superstar tag team thrown together, they tag together longer than Hall and Nash, the brainbusters, and just as long as the midnight express did (Lane and Eaton) two of those teams are favorites to go deep if not win this thing. Misawa and Kobashi are not only stars but as accomplished as those three teams.

Not to mention the most successful tournament tag team in this whole thing.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

I think location matters a lot here. If this match takes place in Japan, then like the poster above mentioned, Kobashi and Misawa are basically unbeatable. They were a pairing of the two top singles stars in AJPW at the time, like we've seen multiple times in various promotions here in North America. Unlike here though, where pairings such as that are typically short term and meant to set up a major angle between those two stars, this was a pairing that stayed together between singles runs to work the tournament heavy booking of Japan. Basically though, you could compare them to a Megapowers style team.

One thing that interests me about this match, is that Misawa has actually fought Bret Hart before. In 1990, before Hart got his singles push, he went to a time limit draw with him in the Tokyo Dome. So when Hart was just a tag team wrestler, in his home country, at a major show (AJPW/NJPW/WWF supershow), when Misawa was on the cusp of getting pushed as THE guy in AJPW... he couldn't get a win over Hart.

So in Calgary, where the Hart Foundation could write their own ticket, and where Kobashi and Misawa don't have the notoriety they're used to... I just don't see the Harts not going over. I see an incredible match. I see fans coming out of it with a huge level of respect for Kobashi and Misawa, but I do see them doing the honors.

Hart Foundation wins.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

1st off, there was a long stretch of time where the Hart Foundation was in FACT the best team in the WWF and it was during a time there were a TON of good tag teams in the WWF. They were one of the top 3 teams WWF put together and have more than enough credentials to beat Misawa and Kobashi.

At the same time Misawa and Kobashi were an extremely dominant tag team and were pretty much unbeatable for a long stretch of time which can't be overlooked. I'm obviously not as familiar with them as I am the Hart Foundation but just going by the little I've seen and what I've read for what the team accomplished they don't have to take a back seat to anyone, including the Hart Foundation. Just going by that alone it would be unwise to vote for the Harts just yet, going by Misawa and Kobashi's history it would be unfair to do so.

As of now I'm leaning towards the Harts based on the fact they were a great team, could be argued as BETTER than Misawa and Kobashi (remember, this is to vote for the BETTER team) and frankly location is greatly in their favor which at this point gives them the edge for me. However, I understand the greatness of Misawa and Kobashi so more education on that team is needed to make a fair vote.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

I think location matters a lot here. If this match takes place in Japan, then like the poster above mentioned, Kobashi and Misawa are basically unbeatable. They were a pairing of the two top singles stars in AJPW at the time, like we've seen multiple times in various promotions here in North America. Unlike here though, where pairings such as that are typically short term and meant to set up a major angle between those two stars, this was a pairing that stayed together between singles runs to work the tournament heavy booking of Japan. Basically though, you could compare them to a Megapowers style team.

One thing that interests me about this match, is that Misawa has actually fought Bret Hart before. In 1990, before Hart got his singles push, he went to a time limit draw with him in the Tokyo Dome. So when Hart was just a tag team wrestler, in his home country, at a major show (AJPW/NJPW/WWF supershow), when Misawa was on the cusp of getting pushed as THE guy in AJPW... he couldn't get a win over Hart.

So in Calgary, where the Hart Foundation could write their own ticket, and where Kobashi and Misawa don't have the notoriety they're used to... I just don't see the Harts not going over. I see an incredible match. I see fans coming out of it with a huge level of respect for Kobashi and Misawa, but I do see them doing the honors.

Hart Foundation wins.

You make a good point although you are ignore the fact that Misawa wasn't the top star he would become either. Bret and Misawa were at the same place at the the time of their match actually Bret was probably ahead of Misawa on the account that Bret had already won his tag team title in the hart foundation. And was intercontental champion at the time of the match with misawa I believe. Misawa was considered an undercard guy at this time not to mention the fact he hadn't even received his push yet. His push came after beating jumbo which didn't happen until after he and bret went to a time limit draw. You're comparing a misawa that hadn't got his push yet to the most dominate wrestler of the 90's imo. It's not even close to the same guy. Misawa hadn't even moved to the Heavyweight ranks yet and was still a Jr Heavyweight.

So saying bret went to a time limit draw with him, when Misawa was a Jr. Heavyweight and not in the midst of his push would be like saying someone should beat SCSA because they beat his as the ring master or that Bret Hart should beat SCSA in the WZ tourney because he beat him at wrestlemania. And that would be more relevant because at least that was a single match, Bret and Misawa's match should have no barring on this because Single's matches don't even go towards who the better team was. If so Luger and Sting should go to the finals and the Road Warriors should be gone.

Bret Hart went to a draw with a Misawa, that was never world champion, not in the midst of a push, and honestly wasn't that big of a name compared to Bret. Comparing Misawa during his against Bret to the Misawa that tagged with Kobashi is like comparing the Ring Master to SCSA. It's silly and just totally bullish on your part. Misawa didn't win his first world title until 1992 two years after that match. Bret won the WWF title in 1992 as well but Misawa hit the highest highs of his career from 92-2000 meaning that when Kobashi and Misawa teamed it was during the prime of his career. Not to mention the fact Misawa was an unknown when he faced Bret, so you're telling me an unknown vs a clearly known fixture and them going to a 60 minute draw hurts Misawa and Kobashi in any way?

Come on man, that's just crazy. Not to mention when Misawa and Kobashi teamed Misawa held the Triple Crown for 705 days, and they held the tag belts for 351 never LOST them had to vacate them for a tourney only to win them back in that tournament and hold them for another 181 days. Basically, During their prime as a tag team they were pretty much unbeatable. The Harts simply weren't.

Bret Hart and Jim Neighthart in 1980's don't come close to Misawa and Kobashi in 1993, 1994, or 1995. This is about the best team, and fact is IN RING, stardom, and drawing power as a team all go to Misawa and Kobashi.

Also comparing them to the Mega powers is silly as well, while Misawa and Kobashi were an all star team they teamed more than the Mega Powers and had to defend the Tag titles which Hogan and Savage never did. You're talking about a team that teamed together for three years consistently to a team that was never tag champions and never had that burden and didn't team as consistently for 3 years while the Mega powers were on and off as a team for what a year? Maybe two? That comparison is also unfair and not logical in the least. The only things they have in common is the fact that they were both all star teams.

The closest thing to Kobashi and Misawa we have here is the MVC who might knock off demolition in this tourney, and Demolition was clearly a more dominate team than Bret and Jim ever were in a time when Bret and Jim were a fixture in the tag division.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

You make a good point although you are ignore the fact that Misawa wasn't the top star he would become either. Bret and Misawa were at the same place at the the time of their match actually Bret was probably ahead of Misawa on the account that Bret had already won his tag team title in the hart foundation. And was intercontental champion at the time of the match with misawa I believe. Misawa was considered an undercard guy at this time not to mention the fact he hadn't even received his push yet. His push came after beating jumbo which didn't happen until after he and bret went to a time limit draw. You're comparing a misawa that hadn't got his push yet to the most dominate wrestler of the 90's imo. It's not even close to the same guy. Misawa hadn't even moved to the Heavyweight ranks yet and was still a Jr Heavyweight.

Actually I do mention that Misawa was on the CUSP of his big push when that match happened. Baba started it shortly after this match, right after losing Tenryu.

Hart also wasn't the IC champion at the time. He was a tag team wrestler who up till that point had experienced one quickly aborted singles push. The Hart Foundation hadn't even won their second title at that time. So the point still stands. Even if the public hadn't seen Misawa's rise yet, the office obviously had big plans for him if they started his push shortly after this match.

Point of course being, that considering the size of the show it was a perfect place to give Misawa momentum and a win over the gajin, yet he didn't get it. If Misawa can't go over Hart at the Tokyo Dome, under optimal conditions... why would Misawa's tag team go over Hart's tag team in Calgary, when the conditions aren't anywhere close to being optimal?

Misawa was an undercard guy? Remind me. What was his gimmick at the time? What relevancy does that gimmick have in Japanese wrestling? Was that a gimmick that they'd give to just an 'undercard' guy?

He wasn't what he ended up becoming at that point. But he also wasn't the nobody you're trying to pretend he was either.

So saying bret went to a time limit draw with him, when Misawa was a Jr. Heavyweight and not in the midst of his push would be like saying someone should beat SCSA because they beat his as the ring master or that Bret Hart should beat SCSA in the WZ tourney because he beat him at wrestlemania. And that would be more relevant because at least that was a single match, Bret and Misawa's match should have no barring on this because Single's matches don't even go towards who the better team was. If so Luger and Sting should go to the finals and the Road Warriors should be gone.

If you're into hyperbole, then yeah that's what I'm saying.

I've already explained why I feel that their singles match has implications on the outcome of their tag team match. You just don't seen to understand it.

Bret Hart went to a draw with a Misawa, that was never world champion, not in the midst of a push, and honestly wasn't that big of a name compared to Bret. Comparing Misawa during his against Bret to the Misawa that tagged with Kobashi is like comparing the Ring Master to SCSA. It's silly and just totally bullish on your part. Misawa didn't win his first world title until 1992 two years after that match. Bret won the WWF title in 1992 as well but Misawa hit the highest highs of his career from 92-2000 meaning that when Kobashi and Misawa teamed it was during the prime of his career. Not to mention the fact Misawa was an unknown when he faced Bret, so you're telling me an unknown vs a clearly known fixture and them going to a 60 minute draw hurts Misawa and Kobashi in any way?

Come on man, that's just crazy. Not to mention when Misawa and Kobashi teamed Misawa held the Triple Crown for 705 days, and they held the tag belts for 351 never LOST them had to vacate them for a tourney only to win them back in that tournament and hold them for another 181 days. Basically, During their prime as a tag team they were pretty much unbeatable. The Harts simply weren't.

The funny part about this quote? You get so much stuff wrong, then accuse me of being full of shit.

- not in the midst of a push. Again... what was his gimmick?
- not that big of a name. Again... what was his name at the time?
- an unknown. Baba started pushing an unknown as THE guy shortly after this match?
- Hart... was simply a tag team wrestler at the time, and hadn't been a tag champion for a couple of years. At the time and place, it was easy to put Misawa over Hart.
- You acknowledge that Misawa/Kobashi were basically Japan's Megapowers. You think they were a better team than the Hart Foundation too? The reason they stayed together and dominated so long... is because the system is different over there. Had they worked in North America... they would have been booked like a Megapowers. Had the Hart Foundation worked Japan exclusively... they would have been booked more like a Misawa/Kobashi

Bret Hart and Jim Neighthart in 1980's don't come close to Misawa and Kobashi in 1993, 1994, or 1995. This is about the best team, and fact is IN RING, stardom, and drawing power as a team all go to Misawa and Kobashi.

I disagree, and I don't see a single situation where... in CALGARY... the Harts put over a couple of guys that to be blunt, most of the fans in attendance wouldn't even know.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Also comparing them to the Mega powers is silly as well, while Misawa and Kobashi were an all star team they teamed more than the Mega Powers and had to defend the Tag titles which Hogan and Savage never did. You're talking about a team that teamed together for three years consistently to a team that was never tag champions and never had that burden and didn't team as consistently for 3 years while the Mega powers were on and off as a team for what a year? Maybe two? That comparison is also unfair and not logical in the least. The only things they have in common is the fact that they were both all star teams.

The closest thing to Kobashi and Misawa we have here is the MVC who might knock off demolition in this tourney, and Demolition was clearly a more dominate team than Bret and Jim ever were in a time when Bret and Jim were a fixture in the tag division.

You added this after, but it seems you're not really getting the Megapowers comparison... or the differences in booking.

If the WWF had annual big money tournaments where it made monetary sense to keep Hogan/Savage together as a dominant team, do you not think that's exactly what they would have done? North America has different setups, and teams like Misawa/Kobashi were put together over here so that they could eventually split and have a big money blowoff. In Japan, it makes more sense to keep them together and strong, so that they can be top draws for the tournaments every year. They were both all star teams like you said, but because of the differences in how each organization they worked for was booked, I have a hard time putting too much stock into their dominance.

You mention the MVC... who don't look like they'll beat Demolition unfortunately. One difference though. The MVC worked on both sides of the ocean and were dominant in both places. Misawa/Kobashi didn't, so we can only extrapolate how they might have fared in a North American ring, in a North American tournament. One truth though... is that top Japanese stars of the time that did come to North America to work typically were used to put North American talent over. I don't believe it would be any different here.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Actually I do mention that Misawa was on the CUSP of his big push when that match happened. Baba started it shortly after this match, right after losing Tenryu.

So you agree that Misawa hadn't got his push yet. Okay, I agree.

Hart also wasn't the IC champion at the time. He was a tag team wrestler who up till that point had experienced one quickly aborted singles push. The Hart Foundation hadn't even won their second title at that time. So the point still stands. Even if the public hadn't seen Misawa's rise yet, the office obviously had big plans for him if they started his push shortly after this match.

Yes but I'm guessing you think that the Hart Foundation is one of the best tag teams of all time. In saying that you'd have to agree, he was the bigger star in this match. And the office having big plans for Misawa means nothing. He wasn't anywhere near a big time guy yet, while bret hart was a member of one of the greatest tag teams of all time. Meaning his name would be bigger than Misawa's since as you yourself have already said Misawa hadn't received his push.

Point of course being, that considering the size of the show it was a perfect place to give Misawa momentum and a win over the gajin, yet he didn't get it. If Misawa can't go over Hart at the Tokyo Dome, under optimal conditions... why would Misawa's tag team go over Hart's tag team in Calgary, when the conditions aren't anywhere close to being optimal?

Well if Savio Vega can beat the ring master in a strap match why should I believe that SCSA would beat Savio Vega? It may be the same man but fact is SCSA is a top five guy all time while the Ringmaster is pretty much lost in time. Misawa wasn't who Misawa would become. Misawa hadn't received any push at this time as Hart had with the Hart foundation. Misawa would get that push later.

Misawa was an undercard guy? Remind me. What was his gimmick at the time? What relevancy does that gimmick have in Japanese wrestling? Was that a gimmick that they'd give to just an 'undercard' guy?

Actually at this time Misawa was basically the underdog in every match. It was his gimmick. By 1993, 1994, and 1995 he was an unbeatable monster. Big difference in gimmick and while more generic than alot of gimmicks in the US, yes it has HUGE relevancy.

He wasn't what he ended up becoming at that point. But he also wasn't the nobody you're trying to pretend he was either.

But would you agree that Misawa in 1990 is nowhere near misawa in 1993,4, or 5? Misawa went from the underdog, to basically the most dominate Japanese wrestler of the modern era. HUGE difference.

If you're into hyperbole, then yeah that's what I'm saying.

I've already explained why I feel that their singles match has implications on the outcome of their tag team match. You just don't seen to understand it.

And you would be totally wrong. Again Hart was an established star at that time and Misawa was not.

The funny part about this quote? You get so much stuff wrong, then accuse me of being full of shit.

Okay let's see

- not in the midst of a push. Again... what was his gimmick?

Underdog

- not that big of a name. Again... what was his name at the time?

Actually this was right after the tiger mask II gimmick game off him, sooooo yeah, I'd say Misawa wasn't a big name yet.

- an unknown. Baba started pushing an unknown as THE guy shortly after this match?

Who was the Ringmaster before the KOTR? You're right AFTER this match his push start. Not before, meaning..... HE HADN'T GOT THAT PUSH YET! Thank you for clarifying that for me.

- Hart... was simply a tag team wrestler at the time, and hadn't been a tag champion for a couple of years. At the time and place, it was easy to put Misawa over Hart.

Accept this isn't the case, Misawa is an unknown just coming off a change in gimmick, and Bret Hart is Bret Hart, a member of one of the best tag teams of all time.

- You acknowledge that Misawa/Kobashi were basically Japan's Megapowers. You think they were a better team than the Hart Foundation too? The reason they stayed together and dominated so long... is because the system is different over there. Had they worked in North America... they would have been booked like a Megapowers. Had the Hart Foundation worked Japan exclusively... they would have been booked more like a Misawa/Kobashi

So you're blaming the system? really? You're not basing this on who the better team is at all, you're basing it on the system now? Maybe Misawa/ Kobashi were the mega powers of Japan only with an infinitive amount of title reigns and success compared to the Mega Powers. So they're sort of like the mega power times a billion.

I disagree, and I don't see a single situation where... in CALGARY... the Harts put over a couple of guys that to be blunt, most of the fans in attendance wouldn't even know.

So we are basing this only on location now, not on who was the better or more dominate team? Location means crap to me here since one team is obviously a bigger deal than the other. Do you see the Road Warriors going down to the Hart Foundation if it's in Calgary? How about the Steiners? If so Demolition gets a raw deal in this thing. We don't even KNOW where they are wrestling.

Maybe you think the location should determine everything. I think the better team should go over. If that's the case Misawa and Kobashi win.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

You added this after, but it seems you're not really getting the Megapowers comparison... or the differences in booking.

If the WWF had annual big money tournaments where it made monetary sense to keep Hogan/Savage together as a dominant team, do you not think that's exactly what they would have done? North America has different setups, and teams like Misawa/Kobashi were put together over here so that they could eventually split and have a big money blowoff. In Japan, it makes more sense to keep them together and strong, so that they can be top draws for the tournaments every year. They were both all star teams like you said, but because of the differences in how each organization they worked for was booked, I have a hard time putting too much stock into their dominance.

You mention the MVC... who don't look like they'll beat Demolition unfortunately. One difference though. The MVC worked on both sides of the ocean and were dominant in both places. Misawa/Kobashi didn't, so we can only extrapolate how they might have fared in a North American ring, in a North American tournament. One truth though... is that top Japanese stars of the time that did come to North America to work typically were used to put North American talent over. I don't believe it would be any different here.

Muta won the NWA world title, and isn't near the star in Japan that Misawa was. Baba won the NWA world title, and might have been close, Inoki, had more success over her but wasn't in Japan what Misawa was. Misawa is bigger than all those guys in my opinion and apparently in most of WZ since he went deepest into the singles tourney of anyone. So if winning world titles is a use for putting people over? Then sure, that's all they did. But any name you can compare to Misawa has been a star here and their. So I don't think it would be too insane to think that Misawa would be used as a world or tag team champion here since he certainly wouldn't be the first.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

So you agree that Misawa hadn't got his push yet. Okay, I agree.

Haha... gotta love a cherry picker.

Yes, he wasn't pushed as the TOP guy yet... just like Hart wasn't EXACTLY who you're trying to paint him as at the time. Hart was a former Tag Team champion wrestling in a singles match... and he was a guy that did a shit load of jobs at the time. He'd just done one to El Matador a few days before. Does that sound like the guy you're talking about?

It was an optimal match to put Misawa over on... especially if the office was so high on him that they decided right after to start the push towards him being their top guy. Not just a normal push. But THE push that so few wrestlers ever get. Yet, the tag team wrestler got treated as an equal to the guy they had big plans for on a major show. That says a hell of a lot to me about how a tag match would have gone between the two. Apparently it doesn't speak to you at all.

Yes but I'm guessing you think that the Hart Foundation is one of the best tag teams of all time. In saying that you'd have to agree, he was the bigger star in this match. And the office having big plans for Misawa means nothing. He wasn't anywhere near a big time guy yet, while bret hart was a member of one of the greatest tag teams of all time. Meaning his name would be bigger than Misawa's since as you yourself have already said Misawa hadn't received his push.

I've noticed you're refusing to mention what Misawa's gimmick was while pretending he was just some unknown, unpushed guy. I don't blame you one bit, because it was such a famous gimmick that people who know nothing about Japanese wrestling know it. He was the new Tiger Mask. His gimmick was so famous that the magazines in North America that barely reported anything about Japan outside of talking a little about Americans working there were talking about the new Tiger Mask. Kinda changes the perspective on who was the bigger name, doesn't it?

And the office having big plans for someone means nothing? Are you serious? Maybe I could see that point if they didn't plan on doing anything with the guy for a ways down the road, but they started following through on those big plans RIGHT AFTER. That's like saying to Steve Austin "hey we're going all the way with this Stone Cold thing of yours... but before we do it, I want you to go the distance with Road Dogg over here."

Well if Savio Vega can beat the ring master in a strap match why should I believe that SCSA would beat Savio Vega? It may be the same man but fact is SCSA is a top five guy all time while the Ringmaster is pretty much lost in time. Misawa wasn't who Misawa would become. Misawa hadn't received any push at this time as Hart had with the Hart foundation. Misawa would get that push later.

Tiger Fucking Mask. If you don't believe that was a push... then we have absolutely nothing to say to each other.

Actually at this time Misawa was basically the underdog in every match. It was his gimmick. By 1993, 1994, and 1995 he was an unbeatable monster. Big difference in gimmick and while more generic than alot of gimmicks in the US, yes it has HUGE relevancy.


But would you agree that Misawa in 1990 is nowhere near misawa in 1993,4, or 5? Misawa went from the underdog, to basically the most dominate Japanese wrestler of the modern era. HUGE difference.



And you would be totally wrong. Again Hart was an established star at that time and Misawa was not.


Okay let's see


Underdog


Actually this was right after the tiger mask II gimmick game off him, sooooo yeah, I'd say Misawa wasn't a big name yet.


Who was the Ringmaster before the KOTR? You're right AFTER this match his push start. Not before, meaning..... HE HADN'T GOT THAT PUSH YET! Thank you for clarifying that for me.


Accept this isn't the case, Misawa is an unknown just coming off a change in gimmick, and Bret Hart is Bret Hart, a member of one of the best tag teams of all time.


So you're blaming the system? really? You're not basing this on who the better team is at all, you're basing it on the system now? Maybe Misawa/ Kobashi were the mega powers of Japan only with an infinitive amount of title reigns and success compared to the Mega Powers. So they're sort of like the mega power times a billion.



So we are basing this only on location now, not on who was the better or more dominate team? Location means crap to me here since one team is obviously a bigger deal than the other. Do you see the Road Warriors going down to the Hart Foundation if it's in Calgary? How about the Steiners? If so Demolition gets a raw deal in this thing. We don't even KNOW where they are wrestling.

Maybe you think the location should determine everything. I think the better team should go over. If that's the case Misawa and Kobashi win.

You know what... fuck it. You love going in circles here. You really don't seem to grasp a single thing I'm saying. You're making shit up as you go and ignoring whatever's convenient for you.

Misawa to you was an absolute nobody when he fought Bret Hart, despite the fact that he was gifted with one of the most famous gimmicks in Japanese wrestling history. Despite the fact that right after Japan's biggest wrestling company decided they wanted him to be their #1 guy (because any successful business jumps on the back of an absolute nobody). It was a big deal for this nobody to draw the superstar WWF wrestler... who hadn't worked in Japan in years... who was just a tag team wrestler... who's tag team hadn't been a pushed tag team in a couple of years at that point... who was so unnecessary to his companies biggest show of the year a couple weeks earlier that he didn't even have to work for 1 minute at it. That's your narrative, and you're sticking to it. Here's mine.

At that time, it made all the sense in the world for Misawa to get the win over Hart. It would have done absolutely nothing to Hart to lose, but it would have helped Misawa to win. He didn't. To me, that means that in this tag match, where there's actually more of a reason for the Harts to win, that they actually would.

Harts win.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Here's the problem that I have with Kobashi and Misawa and comparing Japanese wrestlers to American wrestlers in a predominantly American wrestling tournament...I've never seen Kobashi and Misawa wrestle in a WWE, NWA or TNA style promotion. It's great to say that in Japan, Kobashi and Misawa were on top of the world, but honestly, this is being judged in a number of ways...dominance in Japan is probably not the be all-end all, particularly compared to American and Canadian teams that did go to New Japan or All Japan to compete.

So all that said....

Winners: The Hart Foundation

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Haha... gotta love a cherry picker.

Yes, he wasn't pushed as the TOP guy yet... just like Hart wasn't EXACTLY who you're trying to paint him as at the time. Hart was a former Tag Team champion wrestling in a singles match... and he was a guy that did a shit load of jobs at the time. He'd just done one to El Matador a few days before. Does that sound like the guy you're talking about?

It was an optimal match to put Misawa over on... especially if the office was so high on him that they decided right after to start the push towards him being their top guy. Not just a normal push. But THE push that so few wrestlers ever get. Yet, the tag team wrestler got treated as an equal to the guy they had big plans for on a major show. That says a hell of a lot to me about how a tag match would have gone between the two. Apparently it doesn't speak to you at all.



I've noticed you're refusing to mention what Misawa's gimmick was while pretending he was just some unknown, unpushed guy. I don't blame you one bit, because it was such a famous gimmick that people who know nothing about Japanese wrestling know it. He was the new Tiger Mask. His gimmick was so famous that the magazines in North America that barely reported anything about Japan outside of talking a little about Americans working there were talking about the new Tiger Mask. Kinda changes the perspective on who was the bigger name, doesn't it?

And the office having big plans for someone means nothing? Are you serious? Maybe I could see that point if they didn't plan on doing anything with the guy for a ways down the road, but they started following through on those big plans RIGHT AFTER. That's like saying to Steve Austin "hey we're going all the way with this Stone Cold thing of yours... but before we do it, I want you to go the distance with Road Dogg over here."



Tiger Fucking Mask. If you don't believe that was a push... then we have absolutely nothing to say to each other.




You know what... fuck it. You love going in circles here. You really don't seem to grasp a single thing I'm saying. You're making shit up as you go and ignoring whatever's convenient for you.

Misawa to you was an absolute nobody when he fought Bret Hart, despite the fact that he was gifted with one of the most famous gimmicks in Japanese wrestling history. Despite the fact that right after Japan's biggest wrestling company decided they wanted him to be their #1 guy (because any successful business jumps on the back of an absolute nobody). It was a big deal for this nobody to draw the superstar WWF wrestler... who hadn't worked in Japan in years... who was just a tag team wrestler... who's tag team hadn't been a pushed tag team in a couple of years at that point... who was so unnecessary to his companies biggest show of the year a couple weeks earlier that he didn't even have to work for 1 minute at it. That's your narrative, and you're sticking to it. Here's mine.

At that time, it made all the sense in the world for Misawa to get the win over Hart. It would have done absolutely nothing to Hart to lose, but it would have helped Misawa to win. He didn't. To me, that means that in this tag match, where there's actually more of a reason for the Harts to win, that they actually would.

Harts win.

No you just want to say whatever makes the harts win here, because you're a hart mark which is fine and all. But you could admit it, fact is a singles match between Underdog Misawa has absolutely no relevance to the most dominate champion Japanese champion in the modern era and the man that would take the banner of top guy after him.

Nothing you have said has had anything to do with Hart Foundation vs Misawa and Kobashi, because the fact there's not alot to say. The hart foundation were a fine team, overrated as hell along with the British Bulldogs. They weren't as big a draw as Misawa and Kobashi, weren't as dominate, and weren't as good in ring.

Fact is in every possible way Misawa and Kobashi were the better team, but your opinion seems to be this "A singles match before either man made the big time decides this tag team match" And "It's in Calgary and the Hart Foundation would win in a handicap match against the other top eight seeds" Thanks for the vast knowledge on the whole single match that has absolutely zero relevance here and just fits your narrative of crap to say anything you can to give your vote to the guy you mark out for and not the better team.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Here's the problem that I have with Kobashi and Misawa and comparing Japanese wrestlers to American wrestlers in a predominantly American wrestling tournament...I've never seen Kobashi and Misawa wrestle in a WWE, NWA or TNA style promotion. It's great to say that in Japan, Kobashi and Misawa were on top of the world, but honestly, this is being judged in a number of ways...dominance in Japan is probably not the be all-end all, particularly compared to American and Canadian teams that did go to New Japan or All Japan to compete.

So all that said....

Winners: The Hart Foundation

to compete? oh and they did what of note? please tell me, because the Hart Foundation never wrestled in Japan to my knowledge. At all, bret did, but the Hart Foundation as comprised here, aren't a team that wrestled in New Japan or All Japan. So comparing American or Canadian teams that "went to Japan or all Japan" is baseless and untrue. The british bulldogs did and had no success..... Guess that counts on their behalf. :/

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

to compete? oh and they did what of note? please tell me, because the Hart Foundation never wrestled in Japan to my knowledge. At all, bret did, but the Hart Foundation as comprised here, aren't a team that wrestled in New Japan or All Japan. So comparing American or Canadian teams that "went to Japan or all Japan" is baseless and untrue. The british bulldogs did and had no success..... Guess that counts on their behalf. :/

And where did Misawa and Kobashi compete together other than Japan?

It's fine to have your opinion...it doesn't negate my point that you have 1 Japanese team, maybe 2 if you count Williams and Gordy, in a field of American and Canadian teams that wrestled in American style professional wrestling promotions, making this an American style wrestling tournament. Misawa, to my knowledge, never wrestled in America. Kobashi was in ROH for a few singles matches.

Jimmy Hart drills Misawa in the mouth with the megaphone.

Neidhart covers for the win.

 

[stingray11214]

This is Calgary. If we are going in this on talent alone, Misawa and Kobashi win this in a war. Problem is that The Hart Foundation was one of the biggest names on the biggest stage in the wrestling world. It is akin to being a grouper in a lake to a tiger shark in a kiddie pool. Hate to say it, but Bret and the Anvil win.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

And where did Misawa and Kobashi compete together other than Japan?

It's fine to have your opinion...it doesn't negate my point that you have 1 Japanese team, maybe 2 if you count Williams and Gordy, in a field of American and Canadian teams that wrestled in American style professional wrestling promotions, making this an American style wrestling tournament. Misawa, to my knowledge, never wrestled in America. Kobashi was in ROH for a few singles matches.

Jimmy Hart drills Misawa in the mouth with the megaphone.

Neidhart covers for the win.

lmao so you misinform people then go on to say, "what does it matter". Really? Yes you have two Japanese team, at least that's what you'll say. But you'd be wrong, Brusier Brody and Stan Hansen, MVC, all should be treated with respect. But sadly bias usually wins out in these things, and "OMG AMERICA WRASTLIN BATTER" will probably win the day. You're right and teams like the Holy demon army, Gorin Konbi, and Burning will almost always be ignored doesn't mean you should be bias against the Japanese teams that are available. You're supposed to be voting for the better team. And like I said bigger draw, better team, better matches all go to misawa and kobashi.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

lmao so you misinform people then go on to say, "what does it matter". Really? Yes you have two Japanese team, at least that's what you'll say. But you'd be wrong, Brusier Brody and Stan Hansen, MVC, all should be treated with respect. But sadly bias usually wins out in these things, and "OMG AMERICA WRASTLIN BATTER" will probably win the day. You're right and teams like the Holy demon army, Gorin Konbi, and Burning will almost always be ignored doesn't mean you should be bias against the Japanese teams that are available. You're supposed to be voting for the better team. And like I said bigger draw, better team, better matches all go to misawa and kobashi.

Wow, you have a whole lot more committed to pushing Japanese teams than it seems anyone else does. Do you have stock in New Japan or NOAH or something? Misinformed? Is this a political debate? Are you Obama or Romney? Just want to know which side of the political divide I'm standing on there.

OMG AMERICA WRASTLIN....well, you can say that all you like but if I look around...that's PURDY MUCH WAT THIS IZ, PARDNER!

Bigger draw - In what alternate universe are you talking about? The WWF toured more than All Japan ever did, and I'm sure over the lifetime of both teams, the Harts were in front of more people than Misawa and Kobashi.

Better Team, Better Matches - Well....that's, like, your opinion, man.

But you go ahead and vote as you like. I already did.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Wow, you have a whole lot more committed to pushing Japanese teams than it seems anyone else does. Do you have stock in New Japan or NOAH or something? Misinformed? Is this a political debate? Are you Obama or Romney? Just want to know which side of the political divide I'm standing on there.

OMG AMERICA WRASTLIN....well, you can say that all you like but if I look around...that's PURDY MUCH WAT THIS IZ, PARDNER!

Bigger draw - In what alternate universe are you talking about? The WWF toured more than All Japan ever did, and I'm sure over the lifetime of both teams, the Harts were in front of more people than Misawa and Kobashi.

Better Team, Better Matches - Well....that's, like, your opinion, man.

But you go ahead and vote as you like. I already did.

Surely WWF did tour more but Misawa and Kobashi brought in more fans than the Hart Foundation, it's not a debatable thing. In the 80's and early to mid 90's guys went to Japan to make more money. Making a living in Japan was an in this to do. They paid better especially tag teams such as MVC, the british bulldogs, the varsity club, and even the Road warriors left for Japan. And as far as drawing goes, Misawa was the top draw. While "more people saw" the harts, I don't necessarily believe that. And even if they did, I think Hogan in the eighties had more to do with drawing people in than the Hart Foundation. In fact going out on a limb here and saying most of those big crowds wouldn't have noticed if the hart foundation showed up.

While Misawa and Kobashi were the two biggest draws in AJPW, not to mention the fact they took the number one spot from NJPW (although I will admit as a Kobashi hater, that's 95% the growth of Misawa) only after those two started tagging together. Misawa was a HUGE draw on his own it's not even debatable but over that, Him and Kobashi together were major draws and changed the landscape of Japanese wrestling. Something the Hart Foundation can't say in america or anywhere else for that matter.

Better team and better matches, you're right it's an opinion but I'm not the only one with that opinion. 5 or 6 five star matches as a tag team. It's not just my opinion, they put on better matches than the hart foundation.

But as far as your "that's your opinion" bs comment. I could the APA are a better tag team than the Road Warriors and that's my opinion? No that's an idiotic statement. Kind of like the Hart Foundation is a better team than Misawa and Kobashi

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Surely WWF did tour more but Misawa and Kobashi brought in more fans. In the 80's and early to mid 90's guys went to Japan to make more money. Making a living in Japan was an in this to do. They paid better especially tag teams such as MVC, the british bulldogs, the varsity club, and even the Road warriors left for Japan. And as far as drawing goes, Misawa was the top draw. While "more people saw" the harts, I don't necessarily believe that. And even if they did, I think Hogan in the eighties had more to do with drawing people in than the Hart Foundation. In fact going out on a limb here and saying most of those big crowds wouldn't have noticed if the hart foundation showed up.

Kinda seems irrelevant for a tag team tournament. The Harts were the top tag team for the WWF for years. They may've been there to see Hogan or Warrior or Andre or whoever, but when it came to tag teams, McMahon went with the Harts a lot to represent that division. That says something.

While Misawa and Kobashi were the two biggest draws in AJPW, not to mention the fact they took the number one spot from NJPW (although I will admit as a Kobashi hater, that's 95% the growth of Misawa) only after those two started tagging together. Misawa was a HUGE draw on his own it's not even debatable but over that, Him and Kobashi together were major draws and changed the landscape of Japanese wrestling. Something the Hart Foundation can't say in america or anywhere else for that matter.

Blah, blah, blah, HUGE draw....in Japan.

Major Draw....in Japan.

Better team and better matches, you're right it's an opinion but I'm not the only one with that opinion. 5 or 6 five star matches as a tag team. It's not just my opinion, they put on better matches than the hart foundation.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who like Japanese style wrestling better than American style wrestling. You should, like, start a Japanese style wrestling tag team tournament or something!

But as far as your "that's your opinion" bs comment. I could the APA are a better tag team than the Road Warriors and that's my opinion? No that's an idiotic statement. Kind of like the Hart Foundation is a better team than Misawa and Kobashi

I may think it's an idiotic statement, but it could still be your opinion, no less valid than mine and hey, that's okay, man!

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Kinda seems irrelevant for a tag team tournament. The Harts were the top tag team for the WWF for years. They may've been there to see Hogan or Warrior or Andre or whoever, but when it came to tag teams, McMahon went with the Harts a lot to represent that division. That says something.

Eh they came in during a time when there weren't alot of great teams. When demolition and the brainbusters came around they were an after thought.

Blah, blah, blah, HUGE draw....in Japan.

Major Draw....in Japan.

Again you're using personal bias. Is this a tournament to crown the best tag team or the best North American Tag team?

I'm sure there are a lot of people who like Japanese style wrestling better than American style wrestling. You should, like, start a Japanese style wrestling tag team tournament or something!

See I'm just looking for the best tag team. Much like I'd say Satchel Paige is a better baseball player than nomar garciapara even though Satchel played in the negro leagues and not in the Major leagues. Maybe I'm just not as bias or possibly anti-Japanese as you are. I'm looking for the best tag team not for the best tag team in North America. Just me.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Eh they came in during a time when there weren't alot of great teams. When demolition and the brainbusters came around they were an after thought.

The US Express, The British Bulldogs, The Dream Team, The Killer Bees, The Rougeau Brothers...

Again you're using personal bias. Is this a tournament to crown the best tag team or the best North American Tag team?

How can you crown the best tag team as a pair that only worked in Japan?

See I'm just looking for the best tag team. Much like I'd say Satchel Paige is a better baseball player than nomar garciapara even though Satchel played in the negro leagues and not in the Major leagues. Maybe I'm just not as bias or possibly anti-Japanese as you are. I'm looking for the best tag team not for the best tag team in North America. Just me.

I don't think I would compare a pitcher to a shortstop to begin with. Just me.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

The US Express, The British Bulldogs, The Dream Team, The Killer Bees, The Rougeau Brothers...

Even most WWE fans couldn't even tell you who half those teams were. But they know Demolition, they know Road Warriors, Freebirds, and Brainbusters. And when any of those teams were around the hart foundation were second class citizens.

How can you crown the best tag team as a pair that only worked in Japan?

I'm not saying they are the best tag team, I'm saying they were better than the Hart Foundation.

I don't think I would compare a pitcher to a shortstop to begin with. Just me.

K Paige over Cone. There you go. I'd still go Paige because he's a better player, just like Misawa and Kobashi are the better team. And if you take out bias and prejudice out of it, it's pretty clear.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Even most WWE fans couldn't even tell you who half those teams were. But they know Demolition, they know Road Warriors, Freebirds, and Brainbusters. And when any of those teams were around the hart foundation were second class citizens.

The Harts beat the Demos for their second title, and the year before that had a classic match with the Brain Busters, so I don't agree. The Freebirds were barely in the WWF.

I'm not saying they are the best tag team, I'm saying they were better than the Hart Foundation.

Okay!

K Paige over Cone. There you go. I'd still go Paige because he's a better player, just like Misawa and Kobashi are the better team. And if you take out bias and prejudice out of it, it's pretty clear.

Not really clear at all...it's all opinion, which is why I keep trolling you on this topic. You seem to think that somehow there is a measurable criteria against which to judge...it's professional wrestling, man.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

The Harts beat the Demos for their second title, and the year before that had a classic match with the Brain Busters, so I don't agree.

They were and a classic match doesn't make up for the time demo dominated the WWF in that era. And look unbeatable.

Not really clear at all...it's all opinion, which is why I keep trolling you on this topic. You seem to think that somehow there is a measurable criteria against which to judge...it's professional wrestling, man.

Tell Vince that it's all opinion. Wrestling is about money, Misawa and Kobashi were a better draw than the hart foundation, had more effect on the business than the harts. There is measurable criteria to make a logical conclusion, which is what I'm doing. You're hiding behind "opinion" and anti-Japanese bias to support your position.