I'm just seeing this reply now. Months after the thread was closed. But what the hell, I'm on vacation on a beach with Mrs. IC25, D-Man and the future Mrs. D-Man, and several other reprobates. I'm game.
Maybe not the only one, but it is a big one. Punk is more over than Vader. Need proof? Count how many times you have heard people go apeshit when Vader's music hits. Now since you have a bunch of fingers left over, count up the times for Punk.
So going apeshit is the only indicator of being "over?" When The Undertaker was first starting out, people didn't make noise when his music hit. That's because their reaction was fear. With Vader, it was awe. Both Punk's "apeshit" reaction and Vader's "awe" reactions were appropriate for each man.
...and before you start with the whole "smark chant" argument for the times people chanted his name after Punk left- I am talking about when he was active. But hey, you can give Punk a +1 for that too considering no-one ever chanted for Vader after he quit.
Apples to oranges. The rebel face / heel in that era will always get that reaction. Jackass smarks still do that stupid "WHAT?" chant 15 years later, too. It's not popularity, it's being obnoxious. It's more about the fans wanting to take over the shows.
It sure is a large part of it. He was a big foreign heel who worked stiff.
...and beat his opponents senseless. You left that part out.
As far as the being over argument- I can list a bunch of people who are\were over across those continents & that is a list that even includes Santino Marella. Vader was so "over" in Japan that NJPW was kicked out of their home arena for almost two years after his match with Inoki caused an uproar. That isnt being over, that is called being loathed.
I like you, nightmare. Always have, always will. But that last sentence is the dumbest thing I think you've ever said. He was a heel, mate. Being loathed IS being over.
Your idea that Santino was more over than Vader is beyond naive. Not sure where you got that from. I'm sure when Vader was beating Inoki in Japan and El Canek in Mexico and Sting in the US and Otto whatshisname in Germany, he was pretty over, but again, AS A HEEL. You need to get past the idea that the volume of a crowd reaction is the only indicator of how over a guy is. If Vader wasn't over, he wouldn't have won so many titles and been built for so many shows. Sure, WCW wasn't on par with the WWF for a while, I get that. But that wasn't only because of Vader. Sting and Flair didn't move mountains for WCW, either. Hogan did, though, and Vader and Hogan traded wins.
Bigger and stronger works well enough, but that also comes with less speed\stamina.
Typical "fat guys gas out" argument. Tell that to Kevin Owens when he's going 35 minutes with John Cena.
I've had to try and explain this simple idea before, but you all just don't get it, so I'll speak slowly.
Scenario - Wrestler "A" is a Superheavyweight who weighs 450 pounds and is extremely strong. Wrestler "B" is a lighter Heavyweight who weighs 245 pounds.
When wrestler "A" lifts wrestler "B," he does so with great ease, because of his strength and the lightness of wrestler B, which expends less energy. When wrestler "B" attempts to even move wrestler "A," due to Wrestler A's large size, it requires wrestler B to expend twice the energy.
When in a gym, a 450-lb powerlifter is far less tired after bench pressing 245 pounds than the 245-lb man is after bench pressing 450 pounds. Your argument that the Superheavyweight will gas out first is based on the VERY INACCURATE affirmative that they both expend an equal amount of energy over the course of the match.
Punk can take a beating & still manage to outsmart him or play dirty. Many others have before. Plus, it isnt like Punk is just gonna stand in the way of a charging Vader or anything. He is gonna avoid his grasp anyway he can. That doesnt mean he will just run in circles till Vader falls over either- it means he will pick his shots. Sure Vader will land some punches & have opportunity to manhandle Punk a bit, but to ignore the very likely scenario of Punk being able to win is just silly.
So what you're saying is that when Vader has made contact with someone while charging at them, it wasn't because Vader had worn them down sufficiently or because Vader IS, in fact, fast and intense, but because all of those other wrestlers - including Sting, Cactus Jack, Ric Flair, Arn Anderson, The Undertaker, and Shawn Michaels - were too stupid to move?
I can't believe I didn't see that sooner. Thank you for shedding light on that.
Vader isnt invincible. He has lost to smaller, quicker, more talented opponents before.
Fucking DUH, bro. How many bigger, stronger people has he lost to? There weren't many to begin with. And your "more talented" comment is laughable.
I counter Race with Heyman. Your move, champ.
Don't make me laugh. Heyman is an AMAZING promoter. He was never a wrestler or a legend like Race was. Again, not taking anything away from Heyman, the man is BRILLIANT at what he does. That never was to wrestle. Race can prepare Vader for a wrestling match better than Heyman could prepare Punk.