Int'l Region, DC Subregion, First Round: (7) CM Punk vs. (10) Vader

[JJYanks121]

Prime Sting 1992.

Literally the only people who think that are Vader fan boys trying to make this point. Sting was the hottest thing in the history of professional wrestling in 1997, but his prime was when he was sharing the main event spotlight with Ron Simmons. Jesus Christ.

There's a difference between athletic prime/booking prime and drawing prime. Problem is, stings drawing prime encompasses one match. That match was royally screwed up and Sting was an afterthought by the end of Spring. Thus, it's hard to sell prime Sting as being 1997 since you have nothing in the ring to go by.

Look, it's fine if people want to make Punk out to be better than he is. His entire career has been that. Unfortunately he's running into a buzz saw here. In the span of wrestling history, Punk is a footnote, known best for a 6 minute promo on a stage. If you're booking a kayfabe tournament, you don't waste a guy like Vader early for the sake of punk. You keep him going so he can get in a truly brutal war with a massive babyface where he finally get slated. This isn't the time or the place for it.

 

[Con T.]

In the span of wrestling history, Punk is a footnote, known best for a 6 minute promo on a stage.

Serious question; if Punk is a footnote, what does that make Vader?

Vader is best known for being the guy on house arrest on Kuwait. If we're basing "well known" off publicity (which, while the pipe bomb is memorable, is far from Punk's only accomplishment in history), then Vader's lasting moment is getting put on house arrest for losing his temper on television.

Other than that, that's about it. At least Punk's pipe bomb was positive for the WWE, before they fucked it up. Vader's is more of a black eye.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

The answer here is in the Region and Location. This match is in DC and it is going to be filled with foreign dignitaries and politicians. No promoter in their right mind is going to book a rat faced tatted up skinny fat loudmouth over the cartoon character that is Vader.

Winner: Vader

Vader also gets bonus points because his "V" hand symbol will probably please the executives at Verizon.

 

[Bernkastel]

CM Punk has a winning record over Mark Henry, who did this to Vader...

[youtube]gxisOVdtLno[/youtube]

I am far more inclined to believe that Punk will find a way to win using his quickness, speed, and stamina rather than Vader getting the upper hand with sheer strength alone. And his match against Lesnar and Henry show that Punk can take a good beating. Vader would not just steamroll over him like he does others.

Punk has proven himself to be a far more consistent main eventer than Vader, who never reached the same heights he did in the States as he did in Japan. No where close. Punk had more longevity, and was an overall better worker, wrestler, and performer. And this is coming from someone who loves Vader but can't stand Punk.

Punk should win.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

So because Mark Henry (who CM Punk beat in a match where there was no countouts or disqualifcations) press slammed Vader, that means Punk can beat Vader? I'm not falling for that one.

I can bring up Punk's less than stellar record against guys like Big Show and Kane. Pretty much the only guy that Punk has a good record against is probably Daniel Bryan and Daniel Bryan ain't Vader. Punk doesn't do so well against bigger guys like Vader and he would fall here.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Perhaps I should refer you to my first post...

Is it as dumb as what I've quoted below?

The reason I'm voting Punk is because Punk is the better wrestler. Period.

Who has better matches; Vader, or CM Punk?

Who has better promos; Vader, or CM Punk?

Who actually won the WWE world title; Vader, or CM Punk?

The dumbest part of this was the part where you asked "Who actually won the WWE World Title?" You're stating that, in the 100+ years of pro wrestling, the WWE Title is the only one that mattered, despite the fact that Punk won it when a) the WWE title was sickeningly watered down and meaningless, and b) the first of such reigns was the result of the hyper-gimmicky MITB cash-in.

Did you answer all three of these for CM Punk? Because if you didn't, then I'm not sure what to tell you,

Other than telling them that your post was garbage?

Can't think of a thing.

other than you like a stiff bloke who's shit at promos. More power to you if that's your thing. But that doesn't make a good wrestler.

Vader didn't need to cut 20 minute promos. He had Harley Race. And Andre didn't cut crazy promos either. That's why they placed Heenan with him. Shut up.

I saw Ric Flair beat Vader, on multiple occasions. If Ric Flair can beat Vader, why should I not have any reason to believe CM Punk can't?

I saw it too. Punk is not in Flair's league. Never has been. Never will be.

 

[Alex]

The answer here is in the Region and Location. This match is in DC and it is going to be filled with foreign dignitaries and politicians. No promoter in their right mind is going to book a rat faced tatted up skinny fat loudmouth over the cartoon character that is Vader.

Winner: Vader

Vader also gets bonus points because his "V" hand symbol will probably please the executives at Verizon.

DC happens also to be the birthplace of hardcore punk you know the music played and listened to by rat faced tatted up loudmouths and they outnumber politicians and dignitaries.

Look I don't know a lot of in depth stuff about Vader. IC25 Has educated me on it through this thread and I've checked it out and he seems really good for a big buy but I just flat out prefer Punk. Going by what I've read Vader doesn't have the smarts to counter Punk he needs Harley Race for that. If Harley Race gets taken out what's Vader going to do. Plus Punk is a dick (take that how you will) and will no doubt use some sneaky heel move to win.

Again let me stress I'm just going on what I've read in this thread. I get the impression Vader would throw Punk around like a ragdoll but Punk would think of something to win.

 

[Slyfox696]

I find it surprising people are actually voting for that crybaby CM Punk. Seriously, has there ever been a bigger whiner in pro wrestling than CM Punk and his fans?

"Boo, the WWE only gave me the best debut ever, a months long undefeated streak, multiple world championships and the ability to cut a promo no one else ever gets the chance to cut. How dare they keep me down!"

Seriously, the wrestling business has not, and will not, miss CM Punk. Vader, on the other hand, was an absolute beast and a terrific professional wrestler. I'm not talking about a moonsault (which, while impressive for a man his size, is ultimately irrelevant to discussion of quality), I'm talking about the fact he was actually believable and credible in what he did.

CM Punk was your local clerk at the 7/11...it was believable when he got his ass kicked and CM Punk was very good at selling. But it wasn't believable when Punk went on the offense, because...well, look at him. Vader was a monster and when he started punishing people, it was completely believable that this monster of a man would demolish an opponent.

Aside from working a mic, which doesn't have much relevance when they are wrestling, I don't see anything which gives Punk an edge. Vader was simply the better professional wrestler.

And, unlike CM Punk, he and his fans weren't the biggest whinebags in WWE history.

 

[SSJPhenom]

It's threads like this that make what people like Triple H and others say about the IWC credible and ultimately correct.

People like IC25 and Sly have already touched on it, but I'm going to touch on it again. There is nobody in the history of Professional Wrestling as overrated as CM Punk or as whiney as CM Punk. Punk had an excellent career. Multiple World Championships, main events, opprotunities against some of the biggest names the business has ever seen, etc. However, if one were to listen to him and his fans the man was completely held down and WWE never gave him a chance. Give me a f'n break. I could make a better case for Roddy Piper being held down or Owen Hart being held down than anyone could for Punk. Don't get me wrong, I liked Punk, however, when he left the WWE and started saying some of the things he said, I lost respect for him and deservedly so.

Now, we have CM Punk going up against one of the greatest monster heels in the history of this business and arguably one of the greatest big men in the history of this business('Taker's better), Vader. The argument that I keep reading as to why Punk should go over Vader is because Punk won the be all end all WWE Championship and held it for a really long time. While its true that Vader never won the WWE Championship, Punk never won the WCW Championship or the IWGP Championship. Punk wasn't insanely over internationally or running through everyone in WCW. Punk has never beaten Sting, who IDC at what point in his career you take him, he would 9 times out of 10 beat Punk. Finally, Punk has a god awful record against big men. Big Show, Kane, 'Taker, and others have beaten Punk numerous times. Vader would do the same because in his prime, Vader was as unstoppable as Lesnar is now.

Honestly people, all Punk has on Vader is he can talk on a mic better and that's it. He's not a better draw and he's not a more credible champion.

Do the right thing; do the smart thing and vote Vader.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

DC happens also to be the birthplace of hardcore punk you know the music played and listened to by rat faced tatted up loudmouths and they outnumber politicians and dignitaries.

Except this is the Wrestlezone Tournament. Tickets costs are going to be through the roof. The connections and/or resources one would need to attend such an event are only reserved for the wealthy and powerful. Obama is sitting ringside with Derek Zoolander and the prime minister of Malaysia. There is no way our government is going to risk trade treaties on a wrestling match. Even if it is something as important as the Wrestlezone Tournament. If this were London or NY I might give Punk a chance even though One Direction is England's most influential act and CBGB's is closed but this DC and the fate of politics and economics are in the bookers hands.

Look I don't know a lot of in depth stuff about Vader.

Boy Meets World is all you need to know.

But even if you don't know that is more reason to use location and region to help decide your vote.

IC25 Has educated me on it through this thread and I've checked it out and he seems really good for a big buy but I just flat out prefer Punk. Going by what I've read Vader doesn't have the smarts to counter Punk he needs Harley Race for that. If Harley Race gets taken out what's Vader going to do. Plus Punk is a dick (take that how you will) and will no doubt use some sneaky heel move to win.

Again let me stress I'm just going on what I've read in this thread. I get the impression Vader would throw Punk around like a ragdoll but Punk would think of something to win.

Trust me I've run the analytics through the Barbertron 5,000. Strictly kayfabe Punk has a slight advantage after 14,000 simulations but nothing statistically conclusive. Throw in today's date and region Vader has an almost 60% advantage. Include location and Vader is past 68%. You would have to be completely anal to ignore these analytics.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Prime Sting 1992.

Literally the only people who think that are Vader fan boys trying to make this point. Sting was the hottest thing in the history of professional wrestling in 1997, but his prime was when he was sharing the main event spotlight with Ron Simmons. Jesus Christ.

Sting was BARELY EVEN WRESTLING in 1997, genius. He stood in the rafters like a statue, came down on a harness, brandished a bat, and left. I'm sorry if I struggle to designate somebody's "prime" at a time they barely competed in the ring.

I can also argue that the reason Sting was the hottest thing in '97 had as much to do with the Hogan-hate as the Sting-love.

 

[nightmare]

When trying to convince people how good Vader is, maybe avoid pointing out that Sting was more over than he ever was, by simply standing silently in the dark. Just a thought.

Vader was good, but the only reason he was over in Japan is because he worked stiff as shit. And with that, I would also like to know how working in America and Japan somehow gives you more points by default? Albert is agile for his size and worked in Japan, so do we have to give him a +2 over others better than him?


I like Vader & appreciate what he was, but he isnt exactly known for his smarts. That isnt a "big guys are dumb" blanket statement, its just how it is. Punk could use similar tactics as others smaller than Vader have & it would get the job done. Add the fact Punk is in the history books for his title reign atop the largest current wrestling promotion & that seals the deal, while Vader is in the same book for a fat guy moonsault & losing his belt to Ron Simmons.

It isnt hard to figure out why Punk should win. Very logical from a few points that trump the "Vader Smash" arguments.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

When trying to convince people how good Vader is, maybe avoid pointing out that Sting was more over than he ever was, by simply standing silently in the dark. Just a thought.

Being over isn't the only criterion, though. NorCal and I have often had this discussion and marveled at the fact that, light years behind Hulk Hogan, for quite some time the most "over" guy in the 2nd Golden Age / Hulkamania age of wrestling was Junkyard Dog.

Vader was good, but the only reason he was over in Japan is because he worked stiff as shit. And with that, I would also like to know how working in America and Japan somehow gives you more points by default? Albert is agile for his size and worked in Japan, so do we have to give him a +2 over others better than him?

Neither one of us can unequivocally say that was the only reason. And that argument is far better for the Scott Nortons of the world - Vader was over in Japan, Germany, Mexico, AND here. That's tough to do.

I like Vader & appreciate what he was, but he isnt exactly known for his smarts. That isnt a "big guys are dumb" blanket statement, its just how it is.

SHW's are rarely "known" for their smarts, mainly because they do not have to be known for their smarts. It makes more sense for them to be known for being bigger, stronger, tougher, and heavier. But give me a guy like Vader, mentored and managed by one of the smartest guys in the history of the business in Harley Race, any day.

Also, ask Jake Roberts how being "smart" worked out for him at Wrestlemania 8 against The Undertaker.

Punk could use similar tactics as others smaller than Vader have & it would get the job done.

Maybe 1 time out of 10.

Add the fact Punk is in the history books for his title reign atop the largest current wrestling promotion & that seals the deal, while Vader is in the same book for a fat guy moonsault & losing his belt to Ron Simmons.

Punk's long title run was marked by several instances of not even being the Main Event for much of that time. I'd also rather drop the title to a young Ron Simmons, resulting in the iconic moment in which a major World Title was won by an African American, as opposed to losing to Rey Mysterio, marking the 2nd time a major World Title was won by a midget.

It isnt hard to figure out why Punk should win. Very logical from a few points that trump the "Vader Smash" arguments.

Funny you should mention that. Here's a clip of a match between CM Punk and Big Van Vader.

[YOUTUBE]DsUCRcK7QYc[/YOUTUBE]

 

[nightmare]

Being over isn't the only criterion, though. NorCal and I have often had this discussion and marveled at the fact that, light years behind Hulk Hogan, for quite some time the most "over" guy in the 2nd Golden Age / Hulkamania age of wrestling was Junkyard Dog.

Maybe not the only one, but it is a big one. Punk is more over than Vader. Need proof? Count how many times you have heard people go apeshit when Vader's music hits. Now since you have a bunch of fingers left over, count up the times for Punk.


...and before you start with the whole "smark chant" argument for the times people chanted his name after Punk left- I am talking about when he was active. But hey, you can give Punk a +1 for that too considering no-one ever chanted for Vader after he quit.

Neither one of us can unequivocally say that was the only reason. And that argument is far better for the Scott Nortons of the world - Vader was over in Japan, Germany, Mexico, AND here. That's tough to do.

It sure is a large part of it. He was a big foreign heel who worked stiff.


As far as the being over argument- I can list a bunch of people who are\were over across those continents & that is a list that even includes Santino Marella. Vader was so "over" in Japan that NJPW was kicked out of their home arena for almost two years after his match with Inoki caused an uproar. That isnt being over, that is called being loathed.

SHW's are rarely "known" for their smarts, mainly because they do not have to be known for their smarts. It makes more sense for them to be known for being bigger, stronger, tougher, and heavier.

Bigger and stronger works well enough, but that also comes with less speed\stamina. Punk can take a beating & still manage to outsmart him or play dirty. Many others have before. Plus, it isnt like Punk is just gonna stand in the way of a charging Vader or anything. He is gonna avoid his grasp anyway he can. That doesnt mean he will just run in circles till Vader falls over either- it means he will pick his shots. Sure Vader will land some punches & have opportunity to manhandle Punk a bit, but to ignore the very likely scenario of Punk being able to win is just silly.


Vader isnt invincible. He has lost to smaller, quicker, more talented opponents before.

But give me a guy like Vader, mentored and managed by one of the smartest guys in the history of the business in Harley Race, any day.

I counter Race with Heyman. Your move, champ.

Also, ask Jake Roberts how being "smart" worked out for him at Wrestlemania 8 against The Undertaker.

Sure will, right after I ask Rey Mysterio how he managed to win all those matches against his bigger & stronger opponents.

Maybe 1 time out of 10.

In the immortal words of Howard Finkel...."This match is scheduled for one fall."


All you need is one.

Punk's long title run was marked by several instances of not even being the Main Event for much of that time. I'd also rather drop the title to a young Ron Simmons, resulting in the iconic moment in which a major World Title was won by an African American, as opposed to losing to Rey Mysterio, marking the 2nd time a major World Title was won by a midget.

Rey won the 'vacated' title against Miz in the finals of a tournament & lost it to Cena the same night. He never beat Punk for the belt.


I still would rather be remembered for a historic run including beating the biggest star in wrestling since Hulk Hogan. That beats being remembered for coming out on the losing of a title match any day.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

I'm just seeing this reply now. Months after the thread was closed. But what the hell, I'm on vacation on a beach with Mrs. IC25, D-Man and the future Mrs. D-Man, and several other reprobates. I'm game.

Maybe not the only one, but it is a big one. Punk is more over than Vader. Need proof? Count how many times you have heard people go apeshit when Vader's music hits. Now since you have a bunch of fingers left over, count up the times for Punk.

So going apeshit is the only indicator of being "over?" When The Undertaker was first starting out, people didn't make noise when his music hit. That's because their reaction was fear. With Vader, it was awe. Both Punk's "apeshit" reaction and Vader's "awe" reactions were appropriate for each man.

...and before you start with the whole "smark chant" argument for the times people chanted his name after Punk left- I am talking about when he was active. But hey, you can give Punk a +1 for that too considering no-one ever chanted for Vader after he quit.

Apples to oranges. The rebel face / heel in that era will always get that reaction. Jackass smarks still do that stupid "WHAT?" chant 15 years later, too. It's not popularity, it's being obnoxious. It's more about the fans wanting to take over the shows.

It sure is a large part of it. He was a big foreign heel who worked stiff.

...and beat his opponents senseless. You left that part out.

As far as the being over argument- I can list a bunch of people who are\were over across those continents & that is a list that even includes Santino Marella. Vader was so "over" in Japan that NJPW was kicked out of their home arena for almost two years after his match with Inoki caused an uproar. That isnt being over, that is called being loathed.

I like you, nightmare. Always have, always will. But that last sentence is the dumbest thing I think you've ever said. He was a heel, mate. Being loathed IS being over.

Your idea that Santino was more over than Vader is beyond naive. Not sure where you got that from. I'm sure when Vader was beating Inoki in Japan and El Canek in Mexico and Sting in the US and Otto whatshisname in Germany, he was pretty over, but again, AS A HEEL. You need to get past the idea that the volume of a crowd reaction is the only indicator of how over a guy is. If Vader wasn't over, he wouldn't have won so many titles and been built for so many shows. Sure, WCW wasn't on par with the WWF for a while, I get that. But that wasn't only because of Vader. Sting and Flair didn't move mountains for WCW, either. Hogan did, though, and Vader and Hogan traded wins.

Bigger and stronger works well enough, but that also comes with less speed\stamina.

Typical "fat guys gas out" argument. Tell that to Kevin Owens when he's going 35 minutes with John Cena.

I've had to try and explain this simple idea before, but you all just don't get it, so I'll speak slowly.

Scenario - Wrestler "A" is a Superheavyweight who weighs 450 pounds and is extremely strong. Wrestler "B" is a lighter Heavyweight who weighs 245 pounds.

When wrestler "A" lifts wrestler "B," he does so with great ease, because of his strength and the lightness of wrestler B, which expends less energy. When wrestler "B" attempts to even move wrestler "A," due to Wrestler A's large size, it requires wrestler B to expend twice the energy.

When in a gym, a 450-lb powerlifter is far less tired after bench pressing 245 pounds than the 245-lb man is after bench pressing 450 pounds. Your argument that the Superheavyweight will gas out first is based on the VERY INACCURATE affirmative that they both expend an equal amount of energy over the course of the match.

Punk can take a beating & still manage to outsmart him or play dirty. Many others have before. Plus, it isnt like Punk is just gonna stand in the way of a charging Vader or anything. He is gonna avoid his grasp anyway he can. That doesnt mean he will just run in circles till Vader falls over either- it means he will pick his shots. Sure Vader will land some punches & have opportunity to manhandle Punk a bit, but to ignore the very likely scenario of Punk being able to win is just silly.

So what you're saying is that when Vader has made contact with someone while charging at them, it wasn't because Vader had worn them down sufficiently or because Vader IS, in fact, fast and intense, but because all of those other wrestlers - including Sting, Cactus Jack, Ric Flair, Arn Anderson, The Undertaker, and Shawn Michaels - were too stupid to move?

I can't believe I didn't see that sooner. Thank you for shedding light on that.

Vader isnt invincible. He has lost to smaller, quicker, more talented opponents before.

Fucking DUH, bro. How many bigger, stronger people has he lost to? There weren't many to begin with. And your "more talented" comment is laughable.

I counter Race with Heyman. Your move, champ.

Don't make me laugh. Heyman is an AMAZING promoter. He was never a wrestler or a legend like Race was. Again, not taking anything away from Heyman, the man is BRILLIANT at what he does. That never was to wrestle. Race can prepare Vader for a wrestling match better than Heyman could prepare Punk.