Intl. Region, Minneapolis Subregion, First Round: (6) Vader vs. (27) Frank Gotch

[klunderbunker]

This is a first round match in the International Region, Minneapolis Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under standard wrestling rules. It will be held at the Target Center in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

#6. Vader

Vs.

#27. Frank Gotch

​

Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[The Brain]

Were Frank Gotch and Vader even involved in the same business? Was Gotch (who has been dead for nearly 100 years) involved in the scripted business of sports entertainment or was he involved in actual competition? I honestly am not sure. I think a hundred years ago the matches were legit, and likely very boring as matches would last a couple hours. If that's the case I'm voting for Vader here. This is a scripted tournament in the world of sports entertainment, a world that Gotch was not a part of. Vader moves on.

 

[Bernkastel]

Were Frank Gotch and Vader even involved in the same business? Was Gotch (who has been dead for nearly 100 years) involved in the scripted business of sports entertainment or was he involved in actual competition? I honestly am not sure. I think a hundred years ago the matches were legit, and likely very boring as matches would last a couple hours. If that's the case I'm voting for Vader here. This is a scripted tournament in the world of sports entertainment, a world that Gotch was not a part of. Vader moves on.

Absolutely. The concept of "scripting fights" for money has been around since at least the Civil war. Most likely way before that. Gotch preceded the idea of cards, story lines, angles, and feuds though so basically he did mostly "worked shoots." But that shouldn't matter. Vader's prime was working with New Japan Pro Wrestling, a company that didn't have story lines, feuds, and whatnot and the promotion operated allot like the business did during Gotch's era with worked shoots... except NJPW had cards and whatnot.

And Gotch himself was dirty. He would often cheat, gouge eyes, hit below the belt, anything to get the upper hand. He was scandalous in the eyes of many, but he had real skill. When he held the belt he was considered the best in the world. And he was popular. Frank Gotch helped make pro wrestling popular in the sates. It was on the same level as any other contact sport.

If the Vader went up against Gotch, he would get his ass handed to him. And not just that. Gotch was the bigger star and had a bigger legacy. I don't see how Vader would be booked to win. So I'm voting Gotch.

 

[Tastycles]

Gotch is more important in the history of wrestling than Vader, and that's how I'm justifying this vote.

The reality is, Vader is shit and somehow a collection of my peers have put him within the top 25 wrestlers of all time. This has to stop. Vote Gotch.

 

[nightmare]

Vader is a beast. He is an international star & has won some of the biggest titles in wrestling. Vader is one of the best big guys ever to fight in the squared circle. Seriously, how many guys his size have you seen hit a moonsault? Not many & when it connects you are in trouble. Lets not forget his powerbomb. Damn good stuff right there.


I think Vader takes this one & would be a bit too much for Gotch to handle. Frank real tough & has fought some very good wrestlers in his day, but none the size of Vader. In that time the larger guys were more attraction than bite. Vader can be ferocious & I am not so sure Gotch would be able to pull out a victory. I see Frank getting frustrated during the bout & trying a few dirty tricks that end up getting him DQ'd.

 

[HBsam31]

I was very high on Vader in last years tournament, and will be again this year. An absolute beast who could move in the ring like a lightweight. These two are so far separated by time that I would give Vader the win just based on the fact that Gotch might not fair to well in a scripted environment. Vader to the second round.

 

[Dirk]

If the Vader went up against Gotch, he would get his ass handed to him. And not just that. Gotch was the bigger star and had a bigger legacy. I don't see how Vader would be booked to win. So I'm voting Gotch.

While you could definitely argue that Gotch was more important and influential, reducing this to a shoot-fight is not the way to go.

Not only is Vader known for being a really stiff, tough guy, but he also has a size advantage of 200lbs.

Vader could get booked to win because he was exciting to watch.

 

[Con T.]

I want everyone to understand the following thing about Bug Van Vader. In a business where the most important facets are:

• You work with your opponent.
• You draw money.
• In drawing said money, you have a contest that involves not hurting your opponent,.
• In not hurting your opponent, you're supposed to make it look like you are hurting him.

Vader....

• Was fairly uncooperative
• Never drew money, save for maybe Japan (maybe)
• In not drawing said money, actually hurt his opponent
• Actually tried to hurt his opponent

Vase fundamentally fails each and every component of what makes wrestling, wrestling. And every year, we still wank him.

Right, no. Vote Frank Gotch. Because while at least Gotch did the same thing, that was his actual job of the time.

 

[LSN80]

Vader could get booked to win because he was exciting to watch.

If we're going with exciting to watch as criteria for winning, let's just name Rey Mysterio Jr. the winner of the entire tournament and go home. Because while being exciting to watch is important and incites popularity, it's not enough in this(or any age) to get guys like Tyson Kidd, Sin Cara, etc. al even on television consistently, let alone make them winners.

Vader couldn't stay on television consistently either, as he was suspended several times and outright fired by WCW for his unprofessionalism. He was essentially run out of both WWE as well because of his unwillingness to lose to top stars, and his intent on injuring said stars. He's an overrated talent(said loosely) whose only true success came in Japan, and even that was of middling success.

Gotch has one of the longest reigns as a World Heavyweight Champion in the history of professional wrestling, and if memory serves me, dominated George Hackenschmidt for it, a man who had been undefeated at the time. Not only that, but Hackenschmidt quit because of the beating Gotch put on him.

Gotch isn't likely to be bullied by Vader, and if Vader tried to hurt him, Gotch would hurt him back. And like Hackenschmidt, Vader would quit, just like he did when Ken Shamrock put him in the ankle lock.

These two are so far separated by time that I would give Vader the win just based on the fact that Gotch might not fair to well in a scripted environment.

The opposite would be true, I would think. Gotch would fare better in a scripted fight because of his understanding of holds and maneuvers, because it was his job to legitimately win with them. If he could do them with great success in a real environment, the transition to a fake one would be easy.

It saddens me that so many people are likely voting for Vader because he's the more recognizable name to them, not because of any real justification. Gotch is the easy choice here.

 

[Papa Pillman]

I know Gotch was renowned in his time for his combination of endurance, strength, quickness, and technical ability. But the fact remains that he was about 5'10'' and weighed about 200 lbs. And in his time there weren't 6'4'' 400+ lb. men capable of doing backflips off the top rope.

Gotch got a raw deal with this seeding(seems to be a theme for all of the old school legends and international stars), and as a result got matched up against an opponent who is just too much for him to handle. Vader could hang with Gotch's propensity to stretch his opponents while stretching the rules and that combined with his size and laundry list of accomplishments in two hemispheres makes Vader one of the worst possible match-ups for Gotch to draw. Vader is the right answer here.

 

[GI Cake]

Gotch is scary if you lived in the 1800's or whatever year he wrestled when being 5'10, 200lbs was "a big man" but Vader is a big fat, stiff asshole. Gotch is going to enter this ring ready to shoot wrestle with his 1799's touch guy persona only for Vader to slug him around and then break Gotch's rib cage with a Vader bomb.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

This is were this competition always gets very convoluted. No matter how good Gotch was, he was an legitimate catch wrestler as opposed to the sport's entertainment variant popularized by the likes of Gorgeous George. So do you look at how Vader might have done as a shooter, or do you try to guess how Gotch may have done as a pro wrestler...

[YOUTUBE]VW27kyh7PVM[/YOUTUBE]​

The closest comparison I could probably find to Gotch is recent memory would probably be Ken Shamrock who was the same height, fought MMA at a similar weight and brought much popularity to the sport. Do I believe that Shamrock would have been booked over Vader? No, I don't believe so. Even in the WWF, were Vader was never pushed as hard as he was in WCW or Japan, he was pushed as a main eventer for a period. Even with being regarded as 'The Most Dangerous Man On The Planet", Shamrock never was regarded as a main event pro wrestler. I can't help but feel that Frank would suffer the same fate.

Now if the roles are reversed and Vader had to step into Gotch's world... I'm not sure what would have happened. From what I can ascertain, the biggest guys he ever faced were in the 6" 230lbs region. Coming up against a 6'5" 450lb 'Mastodon' might even have been too much for a man of Gotch's caliber given the restrictions to that form of grappling.

 

[Bernkastel]

Gotch is scary if you lived in the 1800's or whatever year he wrestled when being 5'10, 200lbs was "a big man" but Vader is a big fat, stiff asshole. Gotch is going to enter this ring ready to shoot wrestle with his 1799's touch guy persona only for Vader to slug him around and then break Gotch's rib cage with a Vader bomb.

So because Vader is a stiff brutal monster he auto wins right? What happened when Vader kept facing Inoki and Misawa? He lost far more times than he won. Gotch is easily on par with them.

I'm disappointed. This is close to Enviousdominous levels of bad. No regard for Gotch's popularity or legacy. I'd understand if it were someone uberly important, but Vader wasn't. He's a glorified Taker without the hype of the streak. Always lost to the big names of the industry, and Gotch wouldn't be any different.

 

[GI Cake]

So because Vader is a stiff brutal monster he auto wins right? What happened when Vader kept facing Inoki and Misawa? He lost far more times than he won. Gotch is easily on par with them.

I never ever seen a Gotch match, but knowing what I know about old school tough guys, they're gonna try and tussle with somebody that shouldn't be tussled with. Like Vader.

You don't tussle with Vader, because when you do he does everything he can to injure you.

I'm disappointed. This is close to Enviousdominous levels of bad. No regard for Gotch's popularity or legacy. I'd understand if it were someone uberly important, but Vader wasn't. He's a glorified Taker without the hype of the streak. Always lost to the big names of the industry, and Gotch wouldn't be any different.

But you don't understand, the International regions have a different vibe to it. A vibe that makes everything Gotch ever done meaningless where as Vader would be welcomed by the Mid-Western crowd with such open arms that they have to let Vader give Gotch a concussion. Put away the suspenders and the black and white glasses and open your eyes.

 

[Bernkastel]

I never ever seen a Gotch match, but knowing what I know about old school tough guys, they're gonna try and tussle with somebody that shouldn't be tussled with. Like Vader.

You don't tussle with Vader, because when you do he does everything he can to injure you.

Subjective. Based on that logic Gotch could and would steal a win from him. If Vader did try to shoot on Gotch he'd end him. If Gagne can make Andre his bitch Gotch would have zero problems with Vader.

Vader would be in tears by the time Gotch was finished with him.

But you don't understand, the International regions have a different vibe to it. A vibe that makes everything Gotch ever done meaningless where as Vader would be welcomed by the Mid-Western crowd with such open arms that they have to let Vader give Gotch a concussion. Put away the suspenders and the black and white glasses and open your eyes.

Gotch was an international star as well. Point moot. Gotch was also a household name and helped popularize wrestling in the States. Vader was an upper mid carder and occasional title holder that would keep the belt warm until the top guy got it back. He'd be the type of guy that would be hyped up to be beaten by Gotch to show how cool he was.

 

[GI Cake]

Subjective. Based on that logic Gotch could and would steal a win from him. If Vader did try to shoot on Gotch he'd end him. If Gagne can make Andre his bitch Gotch would have zero problems with Vader.

Vader would be in tears by the time Gotch was finished with him.

You don't understand, so now I am going to throw around a few fancy words and begin to talk down to you, but don't feel bad. Envious has shown me the light and that any argument can be won if you thrown a word like "pedantic."

Gotch was an international star as well. Point moot. Gotch was also a household name and helped popularize wrestling in the States. Vader was an upper mid carder and occasional title holder that would keep the belt warm until the top guy got it back. He'd be the type of guy that would be hyped up to be beaten by Gotch to show how cool he was.

But Vader doesn't need any help hyping up how cool he is. He is just that damn cool. I mean have you seen his mask, and his catch phrase? Not to mention the vibe is different here. So that allows me to objectively disregard everything Gotch has done because Vader is big and scary.

 

[Bernkastel]

You don't understand, so now I am going to throw around a few fancy words and begin to talk down to you, but don't feel bad. Envious has shown me the light and that any argument can be won if you thrown a word like "pedantic."

Okay Sidious.

But Vader doesn't need any help hyping up how cool he is. He is just that damn cool. I mean have you seen his mask, and his catch phrase? Not to mention the vibe is different here. So that allows me to objectively disregard everything Gotch has done because Vader is big and scary.

You're right. Let's all embrace the awesomeness that is Vader!

[youtube]HoF6nZpyhq8[/youtube]

Or we could just vote for Gotch. The objectively better wrestler. As a master of swag you should know about Gotch. He pioneered it.

PS: Your world title will be mine very soon.