Is Religion A Problem? The Superior's Evil War On Faith

[Calderownz]

You've done nothing to prove that religion in and of itself is a problem. Perhaps certain religious people...but not religion itself.

If the Bible doesn't explain itself, you can't blame the people. The book doesn't thoroughly explain itself. How can you blame people that are told to follow it to the best of their abilities when it's never truly specific, other then not questioning the word of it and that it's undoubtedly correct.

That's the beauty of the Bible. It's a sort of "living" text in that it was not specific. There is nothing mystical and transcendent about a scientific equation about how to live.

Personally, I don't find it beautiful in any way. If I wanted to read a well-written story, I'd read a different fictional tale. The Bible, even if you take out that it's supposed to be the most important book of all times, it's not a very cohesive story. Furthermore, why does the book need to be mystical to tell you the most important information you ever need to know?

If you went to the doctor, and asked for test results, I'm sure you'd like the straight-forward answer. I doubt you would prefer the story-telling aspects of his answer during those moments. Well, life is a test of sorts, and you'd love to know what you might need to know in order to have proper results.

1) God did those things according to the tales of the Hebrew people. Whether God LITERALLY did them is up for debate. Symbolism is a cool thing.

2) Would not the actions of Jesus lend one to think that maybe God did not perform those atrocities? Seems that there's a conflict in personalities there.

1) Yes, it's up for debate. Which would lead you to believe that, once again, the all-powerful God kind of dropped the ball of delivering his message thoroughly.

2) Potentially, you might think that. However, once again, if this is the book YOUR people should live by, try using a little more thorough language.

"Tying to help me out here, God? Sure, that's fine. How about...... you...... elaborate. This interpretation this is nice.. for the weekends. But, I have, you know, potentially kids to raise. I'd love some straight-forward answers. Considering, you know all. I realize I shouldn't have to explain this... but..."

That is not the only message in the book. Surely, David would not be considered a "decent" man by our standards, yet he was a man after God's heart. So maybe it's a book about people's reflections about God.

Sure. Maybe God is in part, an asshole. I'd agree with that.

Since when did Big Bird call on Grover to pick up his cross and follow him?

You joke. However, Elmo is no more an idol than the Bible. Nonetheless, I meant the common sense teachings. As in, be kind to people. Love everyone. Etc.

This implies that there is a solitary right way to read the Bible.

If the book is indisputable, then the book implies that itself. If it's RIGHT, and not a theory, it can only be interpreted one way. 2+2 = 4. No other way to handle that.

Once again, violent, religious extremists seem to be the ones causing the "problems" in religion...not religion in and of itself.

Religion causes those things. If it had explained itself more thoroughly, perhaps Muhammed wouldn't feel the need to kill those who believe in a false God.

I look forward to the rest of your retort.

 

[El Rev sXe]

I've got to agree with my boys Xemnas and IDR. I think that religion is one of the most evil things on Earth.

Well everyone mentioned already all the rapes, murders and everything death-related in the name of god. Therefore I'm going to point out two points that IMO show's why religion is a bad thing for human beings. One from a sexual point of view (don't laugh, hear me out) and secondly from a philosophical/ideological point of view.

Okay, first as a future sexologist, I believe that if a society is more open to sex-related, then the society will be more progressive. Vice versa, more a society is close-minded to sexuality; the society will be more retrograde.
Now onto the point with all of this, religion plays a HUGE role in sexuality. Religions condemns homosexuality, adultery, femininity, being promiscuous (sorry if the term is incorrect). A society has always little, personals, daily, sex revolutions but it's always, and I mean ALWAYS stopped or affected by the values of religion. Both Christianity and Muslim show’s that (obviously in different levels). I just don't understand why sexuality is such a nasty thing. Anyway, religion has always condemned sexuality. I think the Greeks didn't, but it doesn't matter I'm talking about religions that are here today.

Now my second point, this one is going to be hot! I don't want to offend anyone, it is not my intention...Being that said:
I consider that religion is something that limits the true potential of persons. I always said, I don't believe in god, I believe in people. I think that religion don't let people to believe in...well you got me, people. I think that it limitate’s the capacity of an individual. People say "why does this happen?" and when the answer isn't clear it's the same thing always:"cause it's god's will". Why it's always god's will?? I think it's mediocre to think that some things we will never understand and the reason for everything is something we will never understand. IMO it's something mediocre, coward and an easy way to say things. There I said it. It's so easy to believe in some god and his will, but it's so hard to believe in people... Sorry I got into my own reflexion, lol.
As I was saying, religion is a bad thing because people think that if they do the right thing they will be rewarded. I mean, why can't you do the right thing just because IT IS the right thing to do? I read a lot of Pascal last year and you see this philosopher says that nothing is real cause it's doesn’t make sense. Everything is god's will. Therefore we aren't master of our destiny. We are a bunch of puppets, and that is what I don't agree.

NIetzsche said that religion is cowardness to the weak. Debatable, however people needs to think that there is something beyond dead. They just can't admit that we are a bunch of ignorants. Why there is a need to know that there is something beyond dead?

 

[LSN80]

"Kill the Infidels" is in the Quran and that's part of spreading Islam. Also you mean the 5th commandment- Thou shall not kill doesn't seem to apply to everone in God's eyes, or to himself. He commands that certain people be killed directly following those commandments. Why? Because the ten commandments only applied to God's people.

Since this discussion is about religion, I guess we have to include Islam and the Quran. You'll get no argument out of me on that one man. And you're right, at the time, the Ten Commandments only applied to God's people. But so did the laws that were written afterwards. We've discussed this before, so Ill only mention it briefly, but in the New Testament, its stated many times that it's God's desire for all people to be "His People."

Originally Posted by Xemnas
If the book is has all this, and you don't agree with those practices, why read or follow any of it?

Because I do agree with what was written in the New Testament. I do feel that the Bible was written as a virtual timeline, a story within a story. I believe in the Beatitudes(Matthew 5). Because I do sometimes, gasp, have faith in the belief in a higher power then myself, and at times, find strength in that Higher Power. Alot of what Ive learned about that Higher Power is found within that book.

Originally Posted by Xemnas
My point wasn't that context is bad. I'm just of sick of hearing it when it doesn't apply. I'm not simply quote-mining from the book. I've read it. The only thing you can say in defense of these things is the time they were constructed in, and it's poor exuse.

I don't doubt that you've read it, and I respect your opinion on it. I dont in the slightest bit think you're quote miming it, neither am I. I know as much about the Bible as I know little about the Quran. That's why i defer on the subject. I do think that context applies entirely. These laws were put into motion, and Jesus came and abolished them with his death. My point is that's quite within the realms of context, and applies quite well.

Originally Posted by Xemnas
Exodus 31:14-
"Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people."

You were saying?

Honestly, it's one of those things I don't understand. I know the passage you're referring to, and you nailed it. There are alot of great promises given in the OT for following God's commands, and equally harsh ones given for NOT following them. Still God orders in Leviticus 19:18(which post-dates Exodus) "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself."

Originally Posted by Xemnas
Sadly indeed. But that's my issue with it. The more Religous a country is, the more ignorant it tends to be. That's what happens when people are raised to believe the Earth is 6000 years old, and though not in this paticular example-ignorance has life and death consequences.

You hit the nail on the head at the end. IGNORANCE has life and death consequences. When Christians don't grasp the basics such as "Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no greater commandment then this." They directly contradict the teachings of Christ when they do otherwise. They asked Jesus who their neighbor was and his response was "Everyone", to sum it up. I believe that a country could function fine, having a high rate of religious people, if they subscribed to these tenants. Sadly, they often don't. It's often more the exception rather then the rule that do.

Originally Posted by Xemnas
I do find it offensive because it was meant to be taken as the word of God.
Even if you're smart enough to no that it's not. It's morals and guidelines are still followed today. Not by Christians are alone. There are still Orthadox jews in the world that don't follow the New Testament.

This I know. The Ortohodox Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Christ, or the Messiah, and are still waiting for their coming Messiah. Thus, they live by Old Testament law, although in far harsh ways then in the day it was written.

Ill be the first to say that I don't understand some of the Old Testament. I don't understand why those laws, rules, and harsh penalties were placed into the Pentateuch. I do understand why though, through the principles and tenants of the New Testament, that Jesus came to abolish those practices through his death.

Originally Posted by Xemnas
Faith in reference to God is belief/trust/loyalty without evidence.
It's bad because when you put your trust, loyalty- and in consequence - hopes and dreams into something that may or may not exist it can lead to problems.

In the ways that faith can be problematic, and certainly frustrating at times, it can be equally as beneficial. Being able to put your trust, loyalty, hopes and dreams into ANYTHING can be a risk. I do it with my wife. Ive placed alot on the line, my hopes, dreams, trust , and loyalty into her. And she could screw me over, and that faith would be worthless. i have no guarantee that she won't. There's no concrete evidence that she won't leave me tomorrow. But I have faith in her, similar to the faith you described that people have in God.

Originally Posted by Xemnas
People have Faith that their God is the one true God and that every other creed on Earth is an abomination. People have faith that they'll other people deserve to burn.

Thats the belief of some, Id argue few, of MOST religions. With Islam being the obvious exception.

Originally Posted by Xemnas
And some people even have faith God will God guide them. When you guide your life by the equivalent of palm reading. Having faith in these beliefs is damaging because it gives you answers that cannot be proven, and when real answers come around you ending up denying truth in favor of things that have either no bases or have been proven flat out WRONG. The fact that something is consoling doesn't make it true.

Hardly the equivalant of palm reading. The Bible was put together on the basis of witnesses, and was decided upon by a panel of men who believed they were hearing from God as to confirmation as to what should and should not be included. There are plenty of people who have found tangible answers, and the proof has been the change in their lives. Josh Hamilton of the Texas Rangers. Brian "Head" Welch, formerly of Korn. Both were addicted to drugs, and according to their own stories, were delivered by God. The "proof" you discuss is that they're living clean, sober, successful lives. And who do they thank for that? God. Just 2 examples of people who found comfort, consolation, and eventually, life changing experiences. Would you call what they believe to be dangerous?

Originally Posted by Xemnas
Well one because not everyone is that lucky. If you make a choice in Islam is literally a crime punishable by death. Still enforced today. And it is wonderful that more and more people are leaving Religion, but it doesn't work that way for everyone for a number of reasons. Some people are raised and sheltered so heavily from the truth that they will never question it.

I agree. And that's the extremely dark, sad side of religion. That people are denied the liberty of free will is something that most of us take for granted on a daily basis.

I don't know if, nor did I say that "more people are leaving religion." What I was saying is that the people I KNOW that generally had religion engrained in them from youth are the ones who turn away from it, because they feel trapped, and have the liberty to make that choice. On the converse, I know many people who knew nothing of God but had some sort of life changing experience and they're the ones whose faith is strongest. How do you explain that?

Originally Posted by Xemnas
Not exlusive to Religion? True. Dominant Reason for bashing Homosexuals? Hell Yes. I keep hearing that too. Religion is just a tool, it's really people vs people. Yes I get it.

I agree that people use religion as a tool for bashing homosexuals. The school board member in Arkansas this week that posted on his facebook page that "homosexuals should kill themselves" is a prime example of that. It's ignorant, and I can't stand it, especially due to him stating his belief on homosexuality was due to his religious beliefs. That's a crock of shit. When
Jesus told the people to love their neighbor, he was asked who "their neighbor was." In short, he said "Everyone." Im pretty sure that would include homosexuals.

Originally Posted by Xemnas
So what your telling me is- that if Religion didn't exist. There would be just as many people wanting homosexuals dead? Even in our modern society?
The most Religious countries on earth are the ones with the fewest rights, and the harshest punishments homosexuals.

No, I agree that the way people have interpreted religion, specifically passages written on homosexuality, has lead to the hate, rage, and ultimately, death at the hands of others due to religious beliefs. Even if, worst case scenario, Paul was "condemning" people to hell for being homosexuals, he wasn't telling ANYONE to rush them there. The message, applicable or not, was to change. It wasn't a "one and done" situation, with no hope for redemption. In fact, Romans 4:8 says:

"Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

That certainly to me doesn't sound like a man condemning someone to a life of hell, or promoting hate.