The Value of Faith and Christianity's Impact on Modern America

[It's Damn Real!]

The Value of Faith and Christianity's Impact on Modern America

According to adherents.com, the United States lays claim to owning the largest national Christian population in the world with 85% of it's total population (approximately 224,457,000 people) vocal about their religious affiliations. That population includes various degrees of religious activity including (but not limited to) nominal (but non-participating) Christians, as well as fully-active full-communicants and life-long clergy. The numbers also lump sum all districts of that faith (Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, Petecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter-day Saints, African Indiginous and more) into one large group.

While I'm sure the very unoriginal and often-abused cliché response from a number of defending faithfuls will undoubtedly be "...but how can so many people be so wrong?" (need I really bring up the Nazi party, the Crusades, the Holy Roman Empire and Islamic extremists as proof of how something as large as widely accepted can can be so wrong?), I'm going to go out on a limb here and be so bold as to contend that not only is Christianity (as well as all three of the major monotheistic religions) wrong, but it (and the concept of religion as a whole) is downright absurd and has very little literal and moral value to modern man and 21st century society.

1. The Absurdity of Faith

Were you to ask why the majority of people don't believe in Scientology, leprechauns, Greek gods or unicorns, for example, the answer would most commonly be not because any of those folks you've asked have some extensive professional working knowledge of their history, but rather simply because they do not believe such things exist(ed) in the world we live in. Reason tells them that that which they don't believe in is of a lie, delusion or relayed via misinformation, so they reject it. My question is, why should Christianity be any different? Why is the concept of a small man dressed in green hiding a pot of gold beneath the end of a rainbow or a magical horse so far-fetched and unreasonable, while the concept that an infallible man who was born of fallible parents could raise from the dead, give sight to the blind, heal the sick or create wine from water?

Carl Sagan once said, ""Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", so how can the concept of any of the aforementioned be dismissed as ridiculous and unfounded when the very foundation for their dismissal can so easily be applied to something as widely accepted as Christianity itself? Why does Christianity receive a pass here? What factual basis do you have for the existence of Christ that I don't have for the existence of leprechauns?

2. The Fallibility of the Bible

The very idea that an omnipotent, omniscient and all-loving god "inspired" fallible men to write an infallible doctrine is as ridiculous a concept as I've ever heard of in my life – and that's no exaggeration by any stretch. The idea that an infallible creator could inspire fallible creatures to convey an infallible message is by definition a paradox, so how could it be taken as unquestionable truth? How can an entire religion be based upon a monumentally oxymoronic foundation? If the Bible – the supposed word of God – is fallible, so too is it's message; ergo so too is the entirety of Christianity. Why is that so difficult for some to understand?

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."

– Gene Roddenberry

"Jesus' last words on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" hardly seem like the words of a man who planned it that way. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure there is something wrong here."

– Donald Morgan

3. The Evils of Faith

We live in a nation where the freedom of religion – including the freedom from religion – is a natural born right of every citizen who's graced with the opportunity of being born on this soil. So too do we live in a nation where secularism and the concept of questioning the often unquestionable is at worst taboo, but by no means illegal or punishable by any standard, so why does our society still primarily function on a system designed to suppress that very repressive nature by accepting something as defining and limiting as religion as it's guiding moral compass? While I'm well aware that the New Testament and the teachings of Jesus Christ promote equality, compassion for the poor and tolerance for those less fortunate, and while I am well aware that Christ himself is probably the most progressive liberal in the last 10,000 years, the New Testament does not equate the Bible; the combination of the Old Testament as well as the NT does, and seeing as both texts are entirely interpretive, Christianity as a whole is actually more of a moral guideline set forth by man. The OT is chock full of stories of rape, misogyny, murder, intolerance toward homosexuality, slavery and a slew of socially unacceptable practices that most consider "evil" by definition. How can such a contradiction of philosophies ever be considered a suitable foundation for morality? How can such a fundamentally flawed design inspire men to start wars over the interpretations of a fallible book?

Christianity claims to be the most tolerant and loving religion on earth, yet you believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs – though you exclude those from your own rival sects – will spend eternity in Hell suffering a never-ending existence of pain and suffering for failing to believe what you do. You don't see the failure in logic here? How can an all-loving god willingly condemn his very creations to an eternal existence of suffering for failing to believe in his own flawed system?

You vehemently deny the existence of evolution (most of you, at least), and spend an exorbitant amount of time seeking to disprove the age of the Earth, but refuse to question the validity of dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesman and scrolls who had less tools and practices than we have today to guess the age of the planet at the time. No issue here?

So what are the evils of faith? The neglect and rejection of all logic and reason at the cost of absolute truth, for one.

"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, "mad cow" disease, and many others, but I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate."

– Richard Dawkins (The Humanist, Vol. 57, No. 1)

--

That said, it's Q&A Time!

• What are your thoughts on the value of Christianity as it pertains to modern society, and do you think it's irresponsible to base our moral compass off the teachings of a book who's historical lineage and philosophical reason can both be questioned down to it's core?

• Do you think religion has a positive effect on humanity as a whole, or is the effect of it's doctrines too individual to truly have a global effect?

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

I'm going to quickly chime in with one point, and avoid getting into the meat of another Jesus conversation.

Faith and christianity (all religion) are completely different, you may need to have faith to believe in such religions, but FAITH and RELIGION are two different beasts.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Another thread bashing religion and/or faith? This is one beaten dead horse that's starting to attract flies. We all know that history is full of examples in which the fundamentals of religion have been perverted in order to commit and/or justify atrocities. It's important that these shames NEVER be forgotten.

I look at some of these instances, both in the distant past and in the modern era, and it does make me both angry and sad. For me, it's the modern ones that hit the hardest as so many use Christinanity to justify terrible deeds and even their own prejudices. Christianity has been used to deprive individuals of their rights, it's been cited for condoning beliefs of racial inequality and to generally be used to keep people at one another's throats. In my view, men like Pat Robertson is a prime example of Christianity at its worst.

The Bible is a book and I personally believe that attempting to live your life strictly by what it says is not only futile, but as contradictory as many of the stories and instances cited within its pages. Christianity was intended to be a religion of peace and brotherhood but powerful men over the centuries have added bits and pieces of their own personal beliefs and dogma to The Bible and have attempted to call it God's will.

However, religion and faith are two distinctly different things. One can still have faith in God without falling into many of the trapings that organized Christianity brings with it. For example, I have no problem whatsoever with gay marriage or gay adoption, but that doesn't mean that my faith in God is diminished in any way, shape or form. After all, I was always taught that God doesn't simply pick and choose who he cares for and who he doesn't. I don't believe that God is a bigot, nor will I be part of any congregation that preaches the opposite, no matter how eloquently or subversally it may be stated.

However, that doesn't mean that anyone and everyone that's part of the organized church is among those people seeking to pervert Christianity to support their own personal take on things. While Christianity certainly isn't perfect, there are far too many instances in which people only dwell on the negative aspects of Christianity in history instead of acknowledging the positives that come from it. There are millions upon millions of good people that are Christians or have faith in something bigger than themselves. There are millions that wish no ill will towards anyone and try to make the world brighter and better for those around them. I don't consider that laughable, idiotic, foolish or evil in the least. I believe in God but I have no idea what God's plan is and I certainly don't know what God's will is. I believe only arrogant, opportunistic and self-righteous people believe that as, as I mentioned earlier, that's their excuse for committing acts that reflects badly on every Christian. I don't know what God's will is, but I don't believe in a God that hates. That's my faith. It may not be necessarily the same faith that others have, but that's them.

If someone doesn't believe in any sort of religion or faith, I've got no problem with that. It doesn't mean that I'm going to dislike that person or look at them in a negative light. I have a few friends that are atheist and have a great relationship with them. However, as with everything else in life, you have those few that give the others a bad name. When it comes to antagonism, you have some atheists that are just as bad as even the most fervent religious fanatic and it's more than ridiculous to think otherwise. Going out of one's way to attack the deepest beliefs of people that intend no harm towards anyone makes one every bit as bad as those they criticize.

There is evil, unrest, strife, violence, inequality and hatred in this world and maybe there always will be. I hope not, but I'm not nearly optimistic enough to believe that's going to change in my lifetime. However, in all fairness, all of these things were present in every culture and country on Earth long before Christianity became such a dominant power. They existed long before Christianity even came about. If Christianity were to disappear tomorrow, just suddenly vanish as if it had never existed, all the same problems that we simply lay at the feet of Christianity would still be here. Something else would just get the blame. While Christianity has been blemished due to the actions of people in the world, blaming it for all the various woes in America is a crutch that many cling to.

There are some good lessons within The Bible for anyone, even if one doesn't believe in religion at all. Treating others as you would want to be treated, showing kindness and charity towards those less fortunate than yourself, working towards the betterment of your life and the lives of others, etc. These are some examples and I don't see them as being outdated in the least. Personally, I think anyone that does is the one with the real problem.

 

[RockFan89]

My question is, why should Christianity be any different? Why is the concept of a small man dressed in green hiding a pot of gold beneath the end of a rainbow or a magical horse so far-fetched and unreasonable, while the concept that an infallible man who was born of fallible parents could raise from the dead, give sight to the blind, heal the sick or create wine from water?

If you look through the internet, you can easily find thousands of testimonies of people who's lives have changed through Christ, who have been miraculously healed, who have witnessed the most incredible of events after praying. There are also many logical reasons as to why one should believe the Bible. Here is just one video from Ravi Zacharias, one of the best Christian apologists in the world, where he gives a short explanation as to why we should believe the Bible. If you are truly looking to get at the truth of Christianity, I would recommend looking up other video/audio/writings of Zacharias.

[YOUTUBE]pHRP0I2SrVs&playnext_from=TL&videos=PteQQgGLG4Q[/YOUTUBE]

The idea that an infallible creator could inspire fallible creatures to convey an infallible message is by definition a paradox, so how could it be taken as unquestionable truth?

I don't follow your logic here. The channel the message goes through does not by default make the message any less whole.

How can an all-loving god willingly condemn his very creations to an eternal existence of suffering for failing to believe in his own flawed system

God cannot be a loving God without being a just God. You have this preconceived notion that someone who is loving does not punish wrong doers. In your viewpoint the likes of Stalin and Hitler don't deserve punishment. The problem people like you have is with the standard God will use to judge people. God demands perfection in everything because he is perfect. The punishment for sinning against God is death, and it doesn't matter what you think of his standard, at the end of the day God will hold all people to that standard. So even though you think differently, God is so morally perfect that even a small lie is condemnable. That is why Christians say that God is loving, because he sent his son to die for us so that even though we have fallen, we could still be saved.

And if you look at the 20th century, it was atheism that caused more people to die than any other religion. Millions died in Russia and China and other communist countries. A core tenet of Marxism is atheism and many of those who worshiped God were martyred for their faith. (And please don't claim that Hitler was a Christian extremist. It was abundantly clear that Hitler was not a religious man and that he used Christianity as a way to further his own agenda.)

 

[Lee]

Wahey lets ask a question asking if I can do a thread about religion when in reality it's a complete attack on Christianity. Not like we've seen this many times over.

Absurdity of faith

I come from the least religious family I know, yet after research and testing the waters, I decided to give Christianity a go. I won't bother listing the miracles I've seen with my own eyes, but hey you'd discount that too.

The Fallibility of the Bible

Of course there are contradictions in the Bible, just like there are in evolution theory and the big bang theory. If you're going to discredit one due to contradictions then why not the other (incidentally in my several years of studying the Bible I have found nothing that contradicts its message, just little silly contradictions),

The dangers of faith

I had to laugh at your claim the OT is chock full of stories of rape, misogyny, murder, intolerance toward homosexuality, slavery and a slew of socially unacceptable practices that most consider "evil" by definition. Yet wasn't US founding father Thomas Jefferson big on slavery? Where is rape seen a good thing in the OT? Murder? Heck where is the Homosexual intolerance stories?

I also had to laugh at the "age of the Earth" thing as scientists haven't agreed a date either, heck the most common has a 4.53 - 4.58 billion year estimate. Thats a 0.03 Billion year gap in the estimate, spot on there matey.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

If you look through the internet, you can easily find thousands of testimonies of people who's lives have changed through Christ, who have been miraculously healed, who have witnessed the most incredible of events after praying. There are also many logical reasons as to why one should believe the Bible. Here is just one video from Ravi Zacharias, one of the best Christian apologists in the world, where he gives a short explanation as to why we should believe the Bible. If you are truly looking to get at the truth of Christianity, I would recommend looking up other video/audio/writings of Zacharias.

[YOUTUBE]pHRP0I2SrVs&playnext_from=TL&videos=PteQQgGLG4Q[/YOUTUBE]

And I guarantee that there is a scientific explanation for every one of those supposed "miracles". Miraculous things are only miraculous to those who don't understand the awe of their power – a century ago it'd have been miraculous for anyone to have been cured of Polio, or for a family member to survive a seemingly fatal gunshot wound – so why is it the will of God, or the power of God that saves people and not the power of will? Have you never seen the power of placebos? People are placed on them all the time who learn to kick drug habits thinking they're taking some powerful drug that's little more than a sugar pill. Is that a miracle too? Science creates miracles. Humans define them as the power of God when they don't have a scientific explanation.

I don't follow your logic here. The channel the message goes through does not by default make the message any less whole.

It's simple – if God is fallible, as in unquestionable and impossible to be wrong because he is omniscient and he "inspires" fallible men – as in men who can be questioned and can be wrong – to convey his message, the message is no longer infallible because of the fact that an infallible being is conveying it. How can you possibly put 100% of your trust in a fallible human being that he wasn't lying? How do you know Moses wasn't a schizophrenic who somehow managed to convince a group of people that God actually spoke to him? How can that possibly be proven one way or another? It's called reasonable doubt for a reason.

God cannot be a loving God without being a just God. You have this preconceived notion that someone who is loving does not punish wrong doers. In your viewpoint the likes of Stalin and Hitler don't deserve punishment. The problem people like you have is with the standard God will use to judge people. God demands perfection in everything because he is perfect. The punishment for sinning against God is death, and it doesn't matter what you think of his standard, at the end of the day God will hold all people to that standard. So even though you think differently, God is so morally perfect that even a small lie is condemnable. That is why Christians say that God is loving, because he sent his son to die for us so that even though we have fallen, we could still be saved.

By that accord you're saying it's OK for a parent who has a child with terminal cancer to kill their child because they love them too much to watch them suffer. If God has eternal love for his "children", how can he condemn them to an eternity of suffering for failing to believe his incredibly archaic and interpretive message correctly? If finding him was so important, you'd think he'd make it a little easier on those children he loves so dearly to do so.

And if you look at the 20th century, it was atheism that caused more people to die than any other religion. Millions died in Russia and China and other communist countries. A core tenet of Marxism is atheism and many of those who worshiped God were martyred for their faith. (And please don't claim that Hitler was a Christian extremist. It was abundantly clear that Hitler was not a religious man and that he used Christianity as a way to further his own agenda.)

No religion on earth has killed more people for the failure to convert than Christianity. Do I really need to provide you the estimated death tolls of the Crusades, The Dark Ages, the Salem Witch Hunts, etc. as proof of that?

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Wahey lets ask a question asking if I can do a thread about religion when in reality it's a complete attack on Christianity. Not like we've seen this many times over.

Not at all. If you are perceiving this as an attack that was never the intention – my intention from the beginning was to have a civil debate designed around the logic, reason and validity of the Bible/Christianity.

Absurdity of faith

I come from the least religious family I know, yet after research and testing the waters, I decided to give Christianity a go. I won't bother listing the miracles I've seen with my own eyes, but hey you'd discount that too.

I absolutely would, because there is always a scientific explanation for it. Read what I just replied earlier to another user about it – 100 years ago very basic medical cures and treatments would have been viewed as miracles just as we look at medical "miracles" today as acts of God simply because we don't fully understand the context of what is happening –*doesn't mean it's God who did it. Why does God fill all the cracks?

The Fallibility of the Bible

Of course there are contradictions in the Bible, just like there are in evolution theory and the big bang theory. If you're going to discredit one due to contradictions then why not the other (incidentally in my several years of studying the Bible I have found nothing that contradicts its message, just little silly contradictions),

Contradictions in the bible:

God is satisfied with his works (Gen 1:31)
God is dissatisfied with his works (Gen 6:6).

God knows the hearts of men (Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3)
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
(Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12)

Killing commanded
(Ex 32:27)
Killing forbidden
(Ex 20:13)

Judging of others forbidden
(Matt 7:1,2)
Judging of others approved
(1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12)

That's just a few – I've got dozens of examples.

The dangers of faith

I had to laugh at your claim the OT is chock full of stories of rape, misogyny, murder, intolerance toward homosexuality, slavery and a slew of socially unacceptable practices that most consider "evil" by definition. Yet wasn't US founding father Thomas Jefferson big on slavery? Where is rape seen a good thing in the OT? Murder? Heck where is the Homosexual intolerance stories?

I also had to laugh at the "age of the Earth" thing as scientists haven't agreed a date either, heck the most common has a 4.53 - 4.58 billion year estimate. Thats a 0.03 Billion year gap in the estimate, spot on there matey.

Slavery

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Murder

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Murder & Intolerance Toward Homosexuality

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Rape

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

 

[RockFan89]

And I guarantee that there is a scientific explanation for every one of those supposed "miracles". Miraculous things are only miraculous to those who don't understand the awe of their power – a century ago it'd have been miraculous for anyone to have been cured of Polio, or for a family member to survive a seemingly fatal gunshot wound – so why is it the will of God, or the power of God that saves people and not the power of will? Have you never seen the power of placebos? People are placed on them all the time who learn to kick drug habits thinking they're taking some powerful drug that's little more than a sugar pill. Is that a miracle too? Science creates miracles. Humans define them as the power of God when they don't have a scientific explanation.

Here are just a few testimonies I quickly picked up off of youtube:

[YOUTUBE]bPGkY40yKkU[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]yD2boZQqYrc[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]Q3I4-um6wCE[/YOUTUBE]

Additionally, there are over 500 eyewitness testimonies to the resurrection of Jesus. Here is a website that can probably address many of your concerns over the legitimacy of the Bible:
http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/doubt.htm

But I'm pretty sure no matter what evidence I present to you, you'll claim that there is another explanation for it, even when none exists.

How can you possibly put 100% of your trust in a fallible human being that he wasn't lying? How do you know Moses wasn't a schizophrenic who somehow managed to convince a group of people that God actually spoke to him? How can that possibly be proven one way or another? It's called reasonable doubt for a reason.

So if I say 1 + 1 = 2, which is an infallible truth in an of itself, it becomes a fallible statement just because I could possibly be lying? No, 1 + 1 = 2 and will always be 2. Just as the word of God is true and will always be true, and to answer how I know the Bible is the word of God, just see the above section and the previous post about why Christians believe in the Bible.

No religion on earth has killed more people for the failure to convert than Christianity. Do I really need to provide you the estimated death tolls of the Crusades, The Dark Ages, the Salem Witch Hunts, etc. as proof of that?

There is no recorded number for the number of people who died during the crusades, from the quick search that I did, I found an estimate of 40,000. Less than 40 people died during the Salem Witch Trials. The Dark Ages in general also don't have a number, so it is hard to estimate. But even the most liberal of numbers can't compare to the over 100 million killed by communist countries like Russia, China, North Korea, Cambodia etc.

But honestly, those numbers for both Christians and atheists cannot be the sole basis to judge the merit of each belief. That would be like saying since chemical research lead to the creation of weapons that can/has killed millions of people, we should stop pursuing new science. You can't determine that the God of the Christian Bible does not exist/should not be obeyed just because a minority of Christians have perverted His Words for their own agenda.

 

[Lee]

I absolutely would, because there is always a scientific explanation for it. Read what I just replied earlier to another user about it – 100 years ago very basic medical cures and treatments would have been viewed as miracles just as we look at medical "miracles" today as acts of God simply because we don't fully understand the context of what is happening –*doesn't mean it's God who did it. Why does God fill all the cracks?

I have sat in a room with 10 others and we prayed for a girl who her entire life had one leg shorter than the other, 10 people in that room witnessed her leg grow to equal lengths and her going to the doctor to have it x-rayed and measured proved that had in fact happened. But hey science can prove it wasn't a miracle...right?

Contradictions in the bible:

God is satisfied with his works (Gen 1:31)
God is dissatisfied with his works (Gen 6:6).

After a period of however many thousands of years after creation, read it in context. Always in context

God knows the hearts of men (Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3)
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
(Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12)

A prayer by someone and the psalm one doesn't even mention the heart.

Killing commanded
(Ex 32:27)
Killing forbidden
(Ex 20:13)

Surely I don't need to explain the difference between war and murder?

Judging of others forbidden
(Matt 7:1,2)
Judging of others approved
(1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12)

"Judge not, that you be not judged.For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you." That's Matthew 7:1-2, looking at it it's clearly saying whatever you use to judge others that's how you will be judged. It's not saying don't judge, it's saying judge in the measure you want to be judged.

That's just a few – I've got dozens of examples.

Slavery

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Yeah this much I disagree with, but you're forgetting that the Hebrews were slaves themselves for 400 years before hand, look at context and culture. But hey the good old USA was keeping slaves up until 200 years ago.

Murder

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Again a difference between murder and the death penalty.

Murder & Intolerance Toward Homosexuality

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

I'll come to this at the end

Rape

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

[/QUOTE]

The first and last one is not saying "wahey go rape" and the second one is a punishment.

Incidentally you'll find that the Jewish law doesn't apply as Jesus' death and resurrection fulfilled the law. So really taking these obscure old testament laws out of context won't get you anywhere, some are stupid. I believe that the following video sums it up best:


Incidentally I'm more on your side than not, you just need to do a bit of research rather than picking and choosing the bible version that covers your point best. I recommend the EnglishStandardVersion.

 

[LigerBomb]

• What are your thoughts on the value of Christianity as it pertains to modern society, and do you think it's irresponsible to base our moral compass off the teachings of a book who's historical lineage and philosophical reason can both be questioned down to it's core?

We are not what we say we are, merely because we say it to be true; We are what we do, as such it is in our action and inaction that our worth is prescribed. You make mention of the ills done in religion's name, this doesn't remove or add value to the religion itself. Rather, it simply discredits those who participated in the acts.
I've no problem or qualm with Christian faith as it pertains to modern society, nor do I find it irresponsible to look towards The Bible for inspiration, questionable as it may be, as everything should be questioned; especially those things we place upon pedestals.

• Do you think religion has a positive effect on humanity as a whole, or is the effect of it's doctrines too individual to truly have a global effect?

Clearly we can see that religion has had a global effect of humanity as a whole so that's a rather moot point.
As to assigning morality to behaviors and actions, I say again, one's moral compass is given it's direction via the intentions and actions of the individual. A given kind of activity produces a corresponding character; therefore, moral characteristics are formed by actively engaging in particular actions, and not by holding specific beliefs.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Incidentally I'm more on your side than not, you just need to do a bit of research rather than picking and choosing the bible version that covers your point best. I recommend the EnglishStandardVersion.

But that's just it, Lee – that's my point exactly. How can you not pick and choose the biblical "versions" of things when the book itself is a series of versions and numerous versions exist? How can any one single aspect of it be "the real" Bible and the "true" word of God when all were dissected by the fallible minds of men (inspired or not)?

While you recommend the ESV, someone else recommends the King James, Mormon's recommend the Book of Mormon, etc. How can any one of you be right when you yourselves condemn your very own rival sects?

 

[It's Damn Real!]

We are not what we say we are, merely because we say it to be true; We are what we do, as such it is in our action and inaction that our worth is prescribed. You make mention of the ills done in religion's name, this doesn't remove or add value to the religion itself. Rather, it simply discredits those who participated in the acts.
I've no problem or qualm with Christian faith as it pertains to modern society, nor do I find it irresponsible to look towards The Bible for inspiration, questionable as it may be, as everything should be questioned; especially those things we place upon pedestals.

It absolutely does when the interpretive book itself is suggesting to it's readers to commit said atrocities in the name of God.

It discredits those who participated in the acts, and condemns those/that who/which influenced them to do so in the first place.

Clearly we can see that religion has had a global effect of humanity as a whole so that's a rather moot point.
As to assigning morality to behaviors and actions, I say again, one's moral compass is given it's direction via the intentions and actions of the individual. A given kind of activity produces a corresponding character; therefore, moral characteristics are formed by actively engaging in particular actions, and not by holding specific beliefs.

As they pertain to their ancestral roots & influences – ergo the Bible.

If the Bible tells you to kill homosexuals, you kill homosexuals because it told you to – not because of some entirely ancillary charge in your body that compels you to regardless of the fact the book you believe commanded you to in the first place. Had you never read that book or believed it's contents, you in all likelihood would not be killing homosexuals.

Those moral characteristics formed by actively engaging in particular actions are driven from why those particular actions are engaged upon in the first place.

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

Until God appears in front of me and says 'Mark of Zur-En-Arrh (lol, how awesome would that be if he referred to me by my alias and not my real name?), i condemn you to hell for all your sins,' then i'd gladly accept it and repent, because i was wrong and i have no excuse, andi wouldn't be expecting to be forgiven, and would prepare for my eternal torture.

That's all he's got to do. Show himself. Not have a burning bush tell me what to do. Not bestowe a miracle upon me to make my life better. He doesn't have to do anything except appear, answer maybe 2 questions that only he and i would know the answers to, and then i'll sign on the dotted line immediately.

Until then, you can all believe what you want. I'll stick to believeing in what's going on in front of me at the present time, and what i believe will happen in the near future, thank you very much. Far too much time and effort is wasted bickering over this shit, and what's even worse, to the point that it's shameful and sickening, is that people are STILL being killed over something that can never be proven.

If someone beats up his neighbour over a debate regarding the existence of leprechauns, whoever won would be considered insane and locked away. Same thing happens over the existence of God, and sure, someone spends the night in a cell at least, but no one's considered a lunatic.

You've no more proof that God exits than what someone(s) wrote in a book sometime. I'm not saying that miraculous things don't happen, or that everything can be explained, but the answer being 'God did it' is no better than 'a wizard did it', and yes i do agree that there's a LOT of scientific theories that could very well be bullshit as well. We'll never reach the edge of the universe in this millenia (or ever if we don't stop focusing on how we can leach more money out of each other, or some new way to eradicate several million people at once, and focus on something a little but more productive to humanity as a whole), so we'll never know if it's continuing to expand or even retracting, will we?

Everyone's entitled to believe what they want to believe. What's truly saddening, is that we can't just let each other get on with it. If there is a God, i hope he's as disgusted with our species as i am sometimes.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Allowing the Bible alone to be used as a 'Moral compass' is irresponsible, stupid, and leads to terrorism. Now, before the Christians come in and kill me, that is NOT me saying Christianity condones terrorism. However, when you look at a piece of writing, or text out of context, which is meant to be looked at as an entirety in a book, bad things are going to happen, especially when that book is so stupidly written that in contradicts almost everything it says, and says it means - which the Bible does.

Believing in the bible is fine, as long as you make sure you look at it properly, and use common sense. Just because you think the bible says something is wrong, you don't go abusing everyone who believes differently. Just because a few words seem to point at one thing, you look at the whole message of the bible - isn't that to love everyone and be tolerant, because only God can judge?

Religious books, not only the bible, have caused so much death and intolerance they're possibly second to none in society. It's been used as an agency of social control for centuries - whether the results are good or bad is questionable. Today, the influence of religion is waivering, but it's still there, quite strongly.

That being said, for individuals, religion can be an amazing thing. I believe, strongly, in the power of BELIEVING in God, as opposed to God itself. Religion has a placebo affect almost. People believe there's someone watching over them, people have prayed so hard for something to happen, that the belief it will happen MAKES it happen, thus their belief strenghtens. It's the same as when doctors tell patients they're being treated by a miracle drug.

In modern society, religion should be used as a personal thing, and no more. It should help people in their lives, but it shouldn't stop anyone doing what they like if it doesn't hurt anyone else. Homosexuality, contraception and abortion are 3 things which hurt no one else, yet people who sterongly believe in major religions are against it it and go as far as wanting it banned. In some places homosexuality is STILL illegal. Things like that have to stop, because they are a HUGE neagtive of having religion.

 

[ABMorales787]

That said, it's Q&A Time!

• What are your thoughts on the value of Christianity as it pertains to modern society, and do you think it's irresponsible to base our moral compass off the teachings of a book who's historical lineage and philosophical reason can both be questioned down to it's core?

Have you ever read the 10 Commandments? They are a premise of how we should live our lives. So is John 3:16. Many consider it a summary of what the entire bible is all about. I don't blame you for feeling it doesn't help. Most of the people promoting this bend the words to their favor. To answer your question, no. No, because it is a book that teaches you "to love your brother, live if he was you". That's kind of a good thing. People on the other hand, like to complicate it, and tamper and turn every word they find in order to suit their benefits. The very same bible share's stories of how the Pharisees bended the teaching of the bible to basically enslave their people and have total control over them. If it were used as it's supposed to, to spread the message of peace, we would be in such a war infested world really. Sadly we have some bastards out there using this to molest kids and take money.

• Do you think religion has a positive effect on humanity as a whole, or is the effect of it's doctrines too individual to truly have a global effect?

Yes. It can add a great moral value. I have a lot of Christian friends and it really astounds me how good their lives are and how stable their families can be just by getting together at church for a bit and going home to read the bible. Never argue. Never fight. Never lie to each other. Never keep secrets. And no, they do not thump their bibles at people because they know you can't force people to follow your views. Always communicating. If my friends can have such great live, just what stops the rest of the world from having them? Sadly we can't see those people because mainstream media cares more about the shock and awe. And unfortunately a pedophile priest trumps a happy family there. Christianity is meant to promote love. Not dictation or hate. How is that so morally wrong?

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Have you ever read the 10 Commandments? They are a premise of how we should live our lives. So is John 3:16. Many consider it a summary of what the entire bible is all about. I don't blame you for feeling it doesn't help. Most of the people promoting this bend the words to their favor. To answer your question, no. No, because it is a book that teaches you "to love your brother, live if he was you". That's kind of a good thing. People on the other hand, like to complicate it, and tamper and turn every word they find in order to suit their benefits. The very same bible share's stories of how the Pharisees bended the teaching of the bible to basically enslave their people and have total control over them. If it were used as it's supposed to, to spread the message of peace, we would be in such a war infested world really. Sadly we have some bastards out there using this to molest kids and take money.

And at the very same moment, that same book that teaches you to "love your brother, live if he was you" also commands you to kill homosexuals, kill those who work on the Sabbath, condones slavery, murder and rape and is chock full of contradictions, so how am I supposed to take it's word for being a book designed to illuminate my life with the values of the New Testament without realizing the history of the OT with it?

Worse yet, how can anyone advocate basing the morality of life, society or governing systems on a book with this much contradiction?

Hell, Islam itself means peace, so why is the Qur'an so widely considered a book of injustice and a religion of violence when it too commands the very same contradicting principles as the Bible?

Yes. It can add a great moral value. I have a lot of Christian friends and it really astounds me how good their lives are and how stable their families can be just by getting together at church for a bit and going home to read the bible. Never argue. Never fight. Never lie to each other. Never keep secrets. And no, they do not thump their bibles at people because they know you can't force people to follow your views. Always communicating. If my friends can have such great live, just what stops the rest of the world from having them? Sadly we can't see those people because mainstream media cares more about the shock and awe. And unfortunately a pedophile priest trumps a happy family there. Christianity is meant to promote love. Not dictation or hate. How is that so morally wrong?

What stops the rest of the world? Relativity and interpretation, I'd imagine, seeing as such an "infallible" book as the Bible is left to be interpreted and dispersed as rival sects and alternate religions by fallible men, no?

It's morally wrong, because Christianity equates the combination of the OT and the NT, not just the teachings of Christ himself. Christ himself was the most progressive liberal on earth, but the teachings of the Bible as a whole are both contradictory as well as overtly violent and dictatorial.

 

[ABMorales787]

And at the very same moment, that same book that teaches you to "love your brother, live if he was you" also commands you to kill homosexuals,

WHAT?! Where the fuck does it say "Kill the homosexual"? "Or working on Sabbath"? Its giving you stories with examples of why this stuff is wrong. Men shouldn't have penises up their asses, but just because its wrong doesn't mean you're gonna burn in Hell.

kill those who work on the Sabbath,

People just exagerate the holy fuck out of that one. You're just suppose to rest and have a day to commute with God. There is nothing wrong with going to work if it means putting food on the table. God's not gonna smite you for needing to work. He's not fucking Hitler.

condones slavery, murder and rape and is chock full of contradictions, so how am I supposed to take it's word for being a book designed to illuminate my life with the values of the New Testament without realizing the history of the OT with it?

Condones this shit? He drowned the planet at a time when it was at an all time high. 100 times higher than now. In the OT he did some things that seem harsh, but the people back then were even worse. How the hell does it condone it, if the people who perform such feats, end up paying the price in the end?

Worse yet, how can anyone advocate basing the morality of life, society or governing systems on a book with this much contradiction?

What contradiction? Its a book that has 66 stories all to tell you 2 things. "live your brother", "love God".

Hell, Islam itself means peace, so why is the Qur'an so widely considered a book of injustice and a religion of violence when it too commands the very same contradicting principles as the Bible?

Because people bend it to make it seem that way. The bible says you should rest and dedicate some time to God on the Sabbath. It does not say "I will fucking roast your ass if you don't sit your ass in bed and worship me". If somebody tells you that's what it is, the person is wrong.

What stops the rest of the world? Relativity and interpretation, I'd imagine, seeing as such an "infallible" book as the Bible is left to be interpreted and dispersed as rival sects and alternate religions by fallible men, no?

It's morally wrong, because Christianity equates the combination of the OT and the NT, not just the teachings of Christ himself. Christ himself was the most progressive liberal on earth, but the teachings of the Bible as a whole are both contradictory as well as overtly violent and dictatorial.

Well you shouldn't be teaching the bible, you should be teaching Christianity. The bible is just a big book that carries the stories and rules. Its not God. Its just a guide. Christianity =/= bible. That's why I hate "bible thumpers". They preach that the bible says this and that and then say you will burn in hell if you don't follow. Wrong. That very same instrument says God is lenient, loving and forgiving. Christianity is not contradictory. Christians are contradictory.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

WHAT?! Where the fuck does it say "Kill the homosexual"? "Or working on Sabbath"? Its giving you stories with examples of why this stuff is wrong. Men shouldn't have penises up their asses, but just because its wrong doesn't mean you're gonna burn in Hell.

Murder

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)​

Murder & Intolerance Toward Homosexuality

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)​

People just exagerate the holy fuck out of that one. You're just suppose to rest and have a day to commute with God. There is nothing wrong with going to work if it means putting food on the table. God's not gonna smite you for needing to work. He's not fucking Hitler.

Gotta say it's kinda funny to read "holy fuck" being written by someone defending Christianity, but I digress!

Says who, exactly? It's an interpretation, no? So why is your interpretation correct, or King James' interpretation correct and mine is not? Why am I psychotic to think I should actually be – or someone who commits the act – put to death for working on the Sabbath as the "good book" commands? Is it not the law of God? Who am I to refuse his will, unless you mean by some chance that his will can be misinterpreted by fallible men, the very men perhaps who interpreted his "word" from the start?

Condones this shit? He drowned the planet at a time when it was at an all time high. 100 times higher than now. In the OT he did some things that seem harsh, but the people back then were even worse. How the hell does it condone it, if the people who perform such feats, end up paying the price in the end?

Yes, condones. Hell, he even commands it. Read your bible, man – do I really need to point out all the dozens of examples of God commanding you to do the very things he says you should not?

What contradiction? Its a book that has 66 stories all to tell you 2 things. "live your brother", "love God".

What book, exactly, are you referring to? I'm talking about the bible as a whole, not some single excerpt, or one of it's many, many books.

Because people bend it to make it seem that way. The bible says you should rest and dedicate some time to God on the Sabbath. It does not say "I will fucking roast your ass if you don't sit your ass in bed and worship me". If somebody tells you that's what it is, the person is wrong.

How can you bend direct commandments, man?

How is this to be interpreted as anything but what it says?

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.*Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.*You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.* (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. *It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.* Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community.*Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. *I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.'* (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)​

It's fucking clear as day, man.

Well you shouldn't be teaching the bible, you should be teaching Christianity. The bible is just a big book that carries the stories and rules. Its not God. Its just a guide. Christianity =/= bible. That's why I hate "bible thumpers". They preach that the bible says this and that and then say you will burn in hell if you don't follow. Wrong. That very same instrument says God is lenient, loving and forgiving. Christianity is not contradictory. Christians are contradictory.

Christianity is the Bible. Without it, it's nothing but a group of common believers in nothing. The bible is the fundamental foundation for all that is Christianity – without it, you have no religion to speak of.

How on earth can Christianity not equate it's biblical heritage?

By the way, Christianity was written by would-beChristians who were inspired by God, so if those men are fallible, how too is the message not? Both Christianity as well as Christians are contradictory.

 

[People's Champ]

IDR, I'm curious to now what the root of your issues are. I'm trying to figure it out but I can't. Is it with God and if he actually exist or not? Is it the Bible and the fact that men wrote it? Is it Christianity, and their strong belief in the Bible? Where does this stem from?

You see, I could sit here with you and we could have a real discussion on this. Growing up this use to be a problem for me in school. See, I was raised a Jehovah's Witness. I was constantly ridiculed at school for it. But as I've have grown older, stopped caring about perception, and did my own research, I can say they are correct. (They being the Witnesses). They are centered around the Bible, as it is God's inspired word. The reason I bring this up hesitantly, is because of the views many have about the religion. Witnesses are percieved as people who think they are better than everyone, who don't have fun, force their children to do preaching etc etc. Even people on this site may have strong feelings against Witnesses.

But I bring this up because I've seen many thread on the Bible, Christians, belief in God, etc. I would like to add a view that I don't think gets added into these discussions.

 

[Bernkastel]

Christianity is the Bible. Without it, it's nothing but a group of common believers in nothing. The bible is the fundamental foundation for all that is Christianity – without it, you have no religion to speak of.

How on earth can Christianity not equate it's biblical heritage?

By the way, Christianity was written by would-beChristians who were inspired by God, so if those men are fallible, how too is the message not? Both Christianity as well as Christians are contradictory.

No, Christianity is not built around the Bible, Christianity is built around the belief that Jesus Christ died for your sins, and that by believing in him, you will gain eternal life.

That is Christianity at its core; I believe true Christians follow the words and teachings of Jesus, not the Old Testament.

The Old Testament is one of the most corrupted books ever written, aside from the 10 Commandments, most of it was copied down by men and not from the finger of God.

The same thing can be said for parts of the New Testament, except for the Gospels, which preserves Jesus's exact words as they were spoken (or translated) verbatim.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

No, Christianity is not built around the Bible, Christianity is built around the belief that Jesus Christ died for your sins, and that by believing in him, you will gain eternal life.

Well gee, genius – where'd ya think that came from? Tell me, how exactly would you have a belief in Jesus Christ having died for your sins and the concept of believing in him being the gateway to eternal life had you never read the bible to begin with?

Better yet, name me one historical text that mentions Jesus Christ other than the bible, and I'll staple my own sack to my thigh.

That is Christianity at its core; I believe true Christians follow the words and teachings of Jesus, not the Old Testament.

Yet another interpreted idea that the concept of what the "true" concept of Christianity is from another interpreting Christian – go figure. So wait, who's right – you, or Jerry Falwell? You, or Fred Phelps? You, or Pat Robertson? None of you agree on the same principles at all, so which of you is actually right?

...and you wonder why someone like me can't buy into the concept of Christianity when your own sects don't agree on the validity, purpose and interpretations of it's message?

The Old Testament is one of the most corrupted books ever written, aside from the 10 Commandments, most of it was copied down by men and not from the finger of God.

And the NT isn't? Educate yourself on the Holy Roman Empire so I don't have to do it for you, please. The entire Bible is a copy & paste scrapbook put together in piecemeal.

The same thing can be said for parts of the New Testament, except for the Gospels, which preserves Jesus's exact words as they were spoken (or translated) verbatim.

So what? Christianity is the fusion of both books – not the cherry-picking of the NT alone.

You want contradictions in the NT – I'll give you the biggest one:

"Jesus' last words on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" hardly seem like the words of a man who planned it that way. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure there is something wrong here."

– Donald Morgan

 

[Bernkastel]

Well gee, genius – where'd ya think that came from? Tell me, how exactly would you have a belief in Jesus Christ having died for your sins and the concept of believing in him being the gateway to eternal life had you never read the bible to begin with?

Considering that most of Jesus's teaching contradicts most of whats found in the Old Testament, I'd say pretty easily.

Yet another interpreted idea that the concept of what the "true" concept of Christianity is from another interpreting Christian – go figure. So wait, who's right – you, or Jerry Falwell? You, or Fred Phelps? You, or Pat Robertson? None of you agree on the same principles at all, so which of you is actually right?

The only part of the Old Testament that Jesus endorsed were the Ten Commandments. Christian's that aren't 'bible thumpers' as Lee put it, take their morals and values from his teachings.

At this point, you're only succeeding in calling Jesus a liar.

...and you wonder why someone like me can't buy into the concept of Christianity when your own sects don't agree on the validity, purpose and interpretations of it's message?

Christianity is one of the safest religions in existence; believe in Jesus as your savior, value his teachings (many of which are completely different from the stuff found in the Old Testament) and receive eternal life.

Christianity is black and white; believe in Jesus, value his teaching, get eternal life... it's that simple. You either are an Christian, or you aren't.

There's no need for Christians to live their lives by the Old Testament, when most of what Jesus taught contradicted it anyway.

I'm not telling you to believe in Jesus now or burn in Hell; as that would hypocritical considering I myself am not a Christian.

I'm merely giving you the simplest explanation of what I know Christianity to be; if you want to buy into all the bullshit and conspiracies involving the religion, be my guest.

And the NT isn't? Educate yourself on the Holy Roman Empire so I don't have to do it for you, please. The entire Bible is a copy & paste scrapbook put together in piecemeal.

Can you not read? I said most of it was written by man, except the Gospels which take Jesus's words verbatim.

So what? Christianity is the fusion of both books – not the cherry-picking of the NT alone.

Considering that Christianity bases itself after Jesus's words and teaches, I'd say yes, it is.

I'm assuming you're an atheist, right? Why don't you give Laveyian Satanism a try; you seem like the perfect candidate.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Considering that most of Jesus's teaching contradicts most of whats found in the Old Testament, I'd say pretty easily.

Pretty easily? That's a paradox if there ever was any. You realize that the OT makes up about two-thirds of what defines Christianity, right? You realize without the OT, there is no NT, right?

The only part of the Old Testament that Jesus endorsed were the Ten Commandments. Christian's that aren't 'bible thumpers' as Lee put it, take their morals and values from his teachings.

At this point, you're only succeeding in calling Jesus a liar.

I'm only succeeding in calling Jesus a liar? What the hell does Jesus have to do with the fact that no two Christian sects can actually agree on the message of Christianity and that sects can have such extremely different interpretations of biblical morality that they can both condone death and condemn it in the same breath?

And again, how can morality base it's compass on a book that claims to carry an infallible message that can't even be clearly delineated?

Christianity is one of the safest religions in existence; believe in Jesus as your savior, value his teachings (many of which are completely different from the stuff found in the Old Testament) and receive eternal life.

Christianity is black and white; believe in Jesus, value his teaching, get eternal life... it's that simple. You either are an Christian, or you aren't.

There's no need for Christians to live their lives by the Old Testament, when most of what Jesus taught contradicted it anyway.

I'm not telling you to believe in Jesus now or burn in Hell; as that would hypocritical considering I myself am not a Christian.

I'm merely giving you the simplest explanation of what I know Christianity to be; if you want to buy into all the bullshit and conspiracies involving the religion, be my guest.

Bullshit and conspiracy theories? Are you really trying to tell me that the Holy Roman Empire had absolutely nothing to do with what became of modern Christianity? Constantine was irrelevant?

Rhetoric won't save you here, man – this is a thread designed to logically debate the validity of the bible and it's message – the message itself is not factually based proof enough to confirm that when I've clearly listed a number of contradictions and logical flaws that none of you apologists have reasonably rebutted.

Can you not read? I said most of it was written by man, except the Gospels which take Jesus's words verbatim.

Yes, written by fallible men conveying an infallibe message, which negates the possibility that the message as defined by men can be infallible.

Considering that Christianity bases itself after Jesus's words and teaches, I'd say yes, it is.

I'm assuming you're an atheist, right? Why don't you give Laveyian Satanism a try; you seem like the perfect candidate.

Read his teachings already – he's just as full of shit as the rest of the theistic world in my eyes. LaVey was nothing short of a sycophant – nothing more. That type of I-come-before-all self-servitude leaves the world in chaos.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

The problem I see with the major religions is the fact that they put the "fear of god" in you when in reality it is not fear but L.O.V.E. The message Jesus apparently taught was Love thy neighbor and thus love thyself which in itself is important in this day and age. Love brings prosperity. Fear only brings hate.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

The problem I see with the major religions is the fact that they put the "fear of god" in you when in reality it is not fear but L.O.V.E. The message Jesus apparently taught was Love thy neighbor and thus love thyself which in itself is important in this day and age. Love brings prosperity. Fear only brings hate.

I highly disagree.

I think of a relationship with God the same way a young child might look at their relationship with their parents. I love my mom and dad, and always did growing up. But when they left the house, I jumped up and down on the bed. Why? Because I wasn't allowed to, dammit, and now they weren't home!

When I heard the keys in the door, I stopped jumping on the bed. Why? Was it because I loved them? Fuck no, it was because I was afraid of them and afraid of punishment.

As I got older, I made decisions based sometimes on the fact that I loved my parents, and sometimes on the fact that I feared punishment. Now that they can no longer punish me, I make choices based on the fact that I love them.

But any "fear" I had for them never translated into hatred.

I'll give you another example - the Ocean.

Last summer in North Carolina, I drunkenly decided that, undertow / currents or not, I was gonna take on the Ocean. On a private beach, with no lifeguard, and a group of friends among whom I was likely the strongest swimmer.

Well lemme tell you something - the Ocean bitchslapped me and dragged me out. Floating in the middle of the deep water, not sure where the bottom was, hoping to (ironically) God that I could catch a wave and ride it back to shore (I did, obviously) taught me to respect and to fear the Ocean. But I don't hate it.

So there are many forms of fear. There's pervasive fear, and then there's a fear that borders on respect. I can love my faith AND fear the reprocussions of my decisions / actions. I can live in both worlds, and I think most intelligent people can too.