Phoenix Region, Vancouver Subregion: Second Round: (10) Owen Hart vs. (7) Kevin Nash

[klunderbunker]

The following contest is a second round match in the Phoenix Region.

This match takes place in the BC Place in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.

#10 Owen Hart

Vs.

#7 Kevin Nash

This contest is one fall with a 20 minute time limit. The match will take place in a 16 x 16 ring with no ramp leading to it. Any traditional managers for either competitor will be allowed at ringside.

As for voting, vote for who you think would win this match based on the criteria you choose. Some suggestions would be (not limited to): in ring ability, overall skill, their level of influence at the highest point in their career, ability to connect with the crowd, experience in major matches or simply personal preference etc.

The most votes in the voting period wins and in the case of a tie, the most written votes wins. There is one written vote per user, meaning if a poster make ten posts saying Bret should win that will count as a single vote. In the event of a second tie, both men are ELIMINATED, no questions asked. Only winners advance.

Voting is open for four days and all posts must be non-spam.​

 

[The Glamazon]

This is a tough one. If any guy has the moves to beat Nash it's Owen but Nash is a powerhouse. Owen would have a hard time getting the sharpshooter on Nash but Nash would have a hard time catching Owen. I'll have to wait this out.

 

[Shocky]

This is much easier then it looks. Like I've said in other threads, if you're voting for a guy that can get on the mat and apply more literal wrestling holds, then by all means, vote for Owen Hart. If you are voting for a professional wrestler, then you vote for Kevin Nash, and it's really not much of a choice.

Kevin Nash was the World Champion of the same company that Owen Hart was in. Owen was an excellent IC champion, but never made it to the top. Kevin Nash dominated Owen's era with a near year long title reign.

 

[Con T.]

Kevin Nash was the World Champion of the same company that Owen Hart was in. Owen was an excellent IC champion, but never made it to the top. Kevin Nash dominated Owen's era with a near year long title reign.

Yes, and clearly Nash did it all by himself. There wasn't anything that helped him get to the top at all...

Look, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Nash only got to the top because he was a member of the Kilq. No, it was because he was huge, clean, and he was a member of The Kilq. Either than that, there's really not all that much Nash was better at than Owen Hart. Owen was definitely the better wrestler, and even though Owen wasn't great on the mic, Nash was still pretty shitty himself. Owen knew how to play a heel better than Nash did, got better reactions than Nash did. This is really a case where success can't be defined by title reigns.

Oh, and the eventual nWo argument? I'll concede that Nash was the third best founding member of the nWo. Out of three. Say what you will, Nash was really only better than Owen in playing the politician backstage. Otherwise, I ask you to present me one thing Nash did in the ring better than Owen. Besides look jacked. Really the only thing Nash had going for him, along with being roid-free.

Vote Owen here.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

This is much easier then it looks. Like I've said in other threads, if you're voting for a guy that can get on the mat and apply more literal wrestling holds, then by all means, vote for Owen Hart. If you are voting for a professional wrestler, then you vote for Kevin Nash, and it's really not much of a choice.

Kevin Nash was the World Champion of the same company that Owen Hart was in. Owen was an excellent IC champion, but never made it to the top. Kevin Nash dominated Owen's era with a near year long title reign.

Very good points, but if big Kev did have one weakness, it was against the smaller more technical wrestlers like Bret, Shawn, Savage, Rey, Y2J and Double J who have all had the number of the 6'11"er.

Owen may have been small but he had a great compact physique that I think he would have pinpointed Diesel's famed bad wheels, got him down and forced him to submit to the Sharpshooter.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

If we're going by who was a better wrestler, Owen wins 10 times out of 10. But seeing as how I'm trying to keep this somewhat kayfabe, I must bite the bullet, and vote Nash.

These are probably two of my top ten or fifteen favorite superstars of all time. Revisionists act as though Nash never had a good match, which is total bullshit. He had some spectacular matches with HBK and Bret Hart, and a selective memory cannot prove me wrong.

Owen was probably as talented as Bret Hart, but was the little brother. I haven't seen an Owen Hart performance I didn't love, but Nash is just too much here, and wouldn't lose in this situation. Owen would carry the action, and would probably be more deserving of the victory, but unfortunately Nash Jackknifes Owen right out of this tournament.

Damn, that was tough.

 

[Big Sexy]

Unless you're voting on in ring ability then this goes to Nash easily. He was better in kayfabe, more successful, and better on the mic. Owen Hart gets the award for second most overrated dead guy while Nash held world titles in the two major companies. You can argue how he got there all you want but the fact remains he was there and he was entertaining.

 

[Shocky]

Yes, and clearly Nash did it all by himself. There wasn't anything that helped him get to the top at all...

Look, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Nash only got to the top because he was a member of the Kilq. No, it was because he was huge, clean, and he was a member of The Kilq. Either than that, there's really not all that much Nash was better at than Owen Hart. Owen was definitely the better wrestler, and even though Owen wasn't great on the mic, Nash was still pretty shitty himself. Owen knew how to play a heel better than Nash did, got better reactions than Nash did. This is really a case where success can't be defined by title reigns.

Oh, and the eventual nWo argument? I'll concede that Nash was the third best founding member of the nWo. Out of three. Say what you will, Nash was really only better than Owen in playing the politician backstage. Otherwise, I ask you to present me one thing Nash did in the ring better than Owen. Besides look jacked. Really the only thing Nash had going for him, along with being roid-free.

Vote Owen here.

Wait, what? The ineviteble backstage politics argument is your strongest reason to vote for Owen Hart? Owen Hart's career pinnacle came at that time. Before the Kliq, Owen was High Energy and a match with his brother, after the Kliq, he was the Nugget of the Nation of Domination. If anything, being associated with the Kliq was the top of Owen's career. He received main event feuds, and more title shots from that association then he did during any other part of his career. Lets not act like the Hart Family was some tragic victim of the Kliq, that clan had as much pull backstage as the Kliq easily.

Why should we disregard the title reign of Kevin Nash in 1995? Kevin Nash was the world champion, while Owen Hart (on the same roster) was a mid to upper mid card guy.

Third best member of the original NWO, how? Scott Hall was good, but Nash was clearly the star. Nash was in a world title match at Wrestlemania, and less then 4 years later he headlined Starrcade. Only a handful of guys can lay claim to that. Hell, at the time, only a hand full of guys could claim to be WCW and WWF champions, and Owen Hart isn't one of them.

Very good points, but if big Kev did have one weakness, it was against the smaller more technical wrestlers like Bret, Shawn, Savage, Rey, Y2J and Double J who have all had the number of the 6'11"er.

Owen may have been small but he had a great compact physique that I think he would have pinpointed Diesel's famed bad wheels, got him down and forced him to submit to the Sharpshooter.

If Kevin Nash never lost to anyone smaller then him, then only the Big Show and Great Khali could have beat him in modern times. Yes, smaller guys have beaten Nash, but more likely then not, Nash has multiple victories over said smaller competitor. Has Owen Hart beaten one giant in his entire career?

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Of course Owen Hart was an infinitely more skilled in-ring competitor than Kevin Nash could ever dream of. If this was a shoot match, I very much believe that Owen Hart could get the better of Nash here.

This is kayfabe, however, and you simply have to compare the two men. From a kayfabe perspective, Kevin Nash was one of wrestling's biggest stars in the 1990s. Often horrible to watch inside the ring, but still a huge star with 6 World Championships under his belt. Owen Hart was a great mid-card wrestler and often put on great matches. The man was just plain fun to watch inside a wrestling ring.

It'd be a fun match and a good mesh of styles. Owen Hart could give Nash a difficult time. Probably the biggest moment in Owen's career is when he beat his brother Bret cleanly at WrestleMania X. It was a huge moment for Owen but he never truly got out from his brother's shadow. During his career, Bret Hart was a 7 time World Champion while Owen failed to win a single World Championship. Could Owen pull an upset over Nash via a roll up or a small package like Bret did against Nash at Survivor Series in 1995? Sure it could happen. Is it likely to happen, probably not because Bret was an much bigger star than Owen.

Owen puts up a valiant effort and gives Nash a great match, but Nash hits the Jack Knife Powerbomb for the win about the 15 minute mark.

 

[Tastycles]

I know you're in the IWC, so you're sworn to an oath to overrate dead people, but the truth is this. Kevin Nash would destroy Owen Hart, easily. These two faced off once, and although Hart won by DQ, Nash fucking killed him. Nash isn't stupid enough to push the referee again, having spent the years since then being booked as an intelligent wrestler.

Look at it this way, the best year of Owen Hart's career was 1994 by far. Yet he ended it without having come close to winning the WWF Title. Diesel on the other hand won that title inside 20 seconds that year and held it for a year. Then he left and had his prime in WCW. Nash's acheivements in 1994 alone eclipse everything Owen Hart ever did, and he had at least ten more years at the top after that. Nash would win this encounter, easily.

 

[Con T.]

Wait, what? The ineviteble backstage politics argument is your strongest reason to vote for Owen Hart?

Not entirely. My argument is more based upon the following logic.

1. Hart is the better wrestler (I'm pretty sure no one is willing to debate that one)
2. Hart is the better promo person/character (This one gets a little more dicey. Hart was no God on the mic, but he was better than Diesel. Lest I pull out the infamous "Play" bit on Nash's debut in WCW. Nash was a really, really weak talker. He was smart, but never really carried much with his promos.)
3. Nash had more success, based upon backstage politics (Yes, there was the fact that he was clean, and huge. But you really don't believe that Nash's role in the Clique didn't help his push?)

You seem to believe I want Nash's run with the title stricken from the records. I don't; it's really the worst championship run in the history of the WWE. Diesel made for the worst champion of all time, and as a draw, was pretty damn lousy. The only thing holding up Nash's presence in this tournament is his kayfabe power, which is directly tied to his connection with the Clique.

Oh, but how about WCW, you say? First, let's get this out of the way, Hogan was the star. We can try and argue semantics, but Hollywood Hogan was the driving force behind that whole angle. As a matter of fact, it wasn't until Nash took the book (shocking, huh?) that Nash got his title run in WCW. Again, backstage politics inflating his kayfabe power. Which at this point is really the only argument that can be made for Nash.

That's a very bare bones way of looking at it, but that's a pretty nice little summary of events. Nash walks around, he's shit in the ring, he finds some buddies backstage, he wins a world title, he does a shitty job. That sums up Oz pretty well in a neat little package.

So no, backstage politics isn't Owen's only point. It's that he's a better wrestler, that he plays a character better, that he's had better matches, more memorable feuds, and at the end of the day, was simply better than Nash, save for backstage politics.

 

[D-Man]

I'm torn here. Although I've always been an Owen Hart mark, I've always been fair about him in these tournaments and I could never assume that he'd have an easy time getting past Kevin Nash. Nash was a very tough competitor in the 90's and a former world champion. Big Sexy brought up a good point with having a world champion versus someone who never got past the IC and tag championships.

But then again, Owen Hart is also the guy that defeated Bret Hart CLEAN, and Bret Hart was a man that took Nash to the limit and defeated him on several occasions. So anyone who says that Nash could win "easily" is just bullshitting themselves and all of us.

I need time to think here but I'm still going to lean towards Owen due to his defeats over a man who took out Kevin Nash... that being Bret Hart.

 

[Big Sexy]

Owen was in no way better then Nash on the mic. Nash early on in his career as Diesel may not have been a very good talker but he grew leaps and bounds in WCW and became pretty damn good. Certainly better then Owen Hart. If you want to talk about backstage politics then lets just eliminate half of the tournament right now because whether you want to believe it or not it is a huge part of the business and sometimes necessary to make it to the top. However, I'll say right here and now that even if Nash wasn't part of the Kliq he still would have had a more successful career then Owen.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Wait, what? The ineviteble backstage politics argument is your strongest reason to vote for Owen Hart? Owen Hart's career pinnacle came at that time. Before the Kliq, Owen was High Energy and a match with his brother, after the Kliq, he was the Nugget of the Nation of Domination. If anything, being associated with the Kliq was the top of Owen's career. He received main event feuds, and more title shots from that association then he did during any other part of his career. Lets not act like the Hart Family was some tragic victim of the Kliq, that clan had as much pull backstage as the Kliq easily.

Why should we disregard the title reign of Kevin Nash in 1995? Kevin Nash was the world champion, while Owen Hart (on the same roster) was a mid to upper mid card guy.

Third best member of the original NWO, how? Scott Hall was good, but Nash was clearly the star. Nash was in a world title match at Wrestlemania, and less then 4 years later he headlined Starrcade. Only a handful of guys can lay claim to that. Hell, at the time, only a hand full of guys could claim to be WCW and WWF champions, and Owen Hart isn't one of them.

I cannot fault any of your arguments here, while many people talk about the power of the kliq, the vast majority of the backstage politicking at the time of Big Sexy's title run was a direct head to head between Bret and Shawn. The kliq and Bret's family were mainly sideline spectators.

At a time when Hogan was old hat, Big Sexy was the most charismatic and, when it came to working a match, the most over competitor in the original nWo.

If Kevin Nash never lost to anyone smaller then him, then only the Big Show and Great Khali could have beat him in modern times. Yes, smaller guys have beaten Nash, but more likely then not, Nash has multiple victories over said smaller competitor. Has Owen Hart beaten one giant in his entire career?

Papa Shango and Razor Ramon would be the two big men that Owen beat in matches of note. Kevin had a great record against the bigger men, in fact he was booked in such a way at WrestleMania against the Undertaker to give the impression that had he not been showboating, he would have defeated the Phenom. The match in which he cleanly Jack-knifed the Giant was a move of supreme beauty.

This is not a kayfabe title bout, it is a qualifying round in a tournament and as such World Title reigns are a consideration rather than the be all, end all. I always regarded Nash's biggest weakness to be the athletic technical guys, not the big powerhouses and I've always considered Owen as one of the best - World title or no.

I don't discount your opinion, I find it very compelling but I think my own holds it own validity.

 

[D-Man]

However, I'll say right here and now that even if Nash wasn't part of the Kliq he still would have had a more successful career then Owen.

Let's face facts... this is mostly because Nash is 7ft tall and Vince had a hard-on for big guys in the WWE. Granted, Nash put in the work as HBK's lacky for a while. But even still... he went from bodyguard straight to the title. The only stop in between was the tag titles and that wasn't even very impressive.

At least Owen made the tag titles mean something on several occasions. Nash won the world title but he drew shit numbers and if anything, he brought the notoriety of the title down.

 

[Big Sexy]

Let's face facts... this is mostly because Nash is 7ft tall and Vince had a hard-on for big guys in the WWE. Granted, Nash put in the work as HBK's lacky for a while. But even still... he went from bodyguard straight to the title. The only stop in between was the tag titles and that wasn't even very impressive.

Oh I'm not doubting that his size would be the reason. I'm just responding to those that think the Kliq was the only reason he had the success that he did. Fair or not the bigger guys always have easier routes to success. However, more often then not these big guys fail and after a short run of dominance they fade into obscurity, eg. Snitsky, Khali, Gallows, Bundy, etc... Nash had the size but the talent to back it up as well.

At least Owen made the tag titles mean something on several occasions. Nash won the world title but he drew shit numbers and if anything, he brought the notoriety of the title down.

Everyone drew shit numbers at that time. Nash, Bret, HBK, and I highly doubt Owen would have been able to draw even the shit numbers that the three guys I mentioned did.

 

[D-Man]

Everyone drew shit numbers at that time. Nash, Bret, HBK, and I highly doubt Owen would have been able to draw even the shit numbers that the three guys I mentioned did.

But we cannot deal in hypotheticals here. I don't mean this in a bad way but your opinion doesn't hold water. Owen was not given the ball to run with because the line of 6'10" - 7'0 tall or Kliq-associated wrestlers was too long at the time. That's fact.

Unless Owen held that title and we had numbers to back it up, we can only speak of Nash's failure to draw and not Owen's.

I'll just keep repeating myself until someone proves me wrong but if the Owen Hart that faced Bret Hart in the opening match of Wrestlemania X shows up to this match, he can most definitely defeat Kevin Nash.

 

[Big Sexy]

But we cannot deal in hypotheticals here. I don't mean this in a bad way but your opinion doesn't hold water. Owen was not given the ball to run with because the line of 6'10" - 7'0 tall or Kliq-associated wrestlers was too long at the time. That's fact.

Unless Owen held that title and we had numbers to back it up, we can only speak of Nash's failure to draw and not Owen's.

It may be hypothetical but it has very valid reasoning behind it. Nash, Bret, and HBK all drew bigger reactions from the crowd then Owen did and it didn't matter. Can you really sit there and tell me that Owen was better suited to carry a company as the champion and would have drawn bigger numbers then Nash, Bret, and HBK? Aldo Montoya was never given a chance with the world title either but no one would tell me my opinion didn't hold water if I suggested he couldn't draw like Bret, HBK, and Nash did.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Everyone drew shit numbers at that time. Nash, Bret, HBK, and I highly doubt Owen would have been able to draw even the shit numbers that the three guys I mentioned did.

I think people forget that it wasn't so much that these guys couldn't draw - the problem was they were working with garbage men, dentists, clowns, pig farmers, a 600lb (Samoan) sumo wrestler et cetera and the world just wasn't interested in such a cartoon landscape on the back of the death of kayfabe with the steroid scandal and Vince admitting it wasn't a sport for tax purposes.

 

[Slyfox696]

Let's face facts... this is mostly because Nash is 7ft tall and Vince had a hard-on for big guys in the WWE. Granted, Nash put in the work as HBK's lacky for a while. But even still... he went from bodyguard straight to the title. The only stop in between was the tag titles and that wasn't even very impressive.

At least Owen made the tag titles mean something on several occasions. Nash won the world title but he drew shit numbers and if anything, he brought the notoriety of the title down.

D-Man, you're great and all, but if you divide Kevin Nash's prime up into two parts, his WWF run and his WCW run, both parts of his prime individually are still more impressive than Owen's entire career.

On one side, Nash was a Triple Crown WWF Champion, winning the Tag Titles twice, the IC once and the World title once, as well as main-eventing a Wrestlemania and retaining his title. On the other side, Nash was a multiple time WCW World Champion, multiple time WCW Tag Champion, and one of the main players in the group which revolutionized wrestling.

No matter which prime you take, Kevin Nash is better than Owen Hart.

 

[D-Man]

It may be hypothetical but it has very valid reasoning behind it. Nash, Bret, and HBK all drew bigger reactions from the crowd then Owen did and it didn't matter. Can you really sit there and tell me that Owen was better suited to carry a company as the champion and would have drawn bigger numbers then Nash, Bret, and HBK? Aldo Montoya was never given a chance with the world title either but no one would tell me my opinion didn't hold water if I suggested he couldn't draw like Bret, HBK, and Nash did.

There are many wrestlers out there that plenty of the IWC consider to be "overrated" and yet they carry the torch of the world championship just fine. The Miz is a perfect example of this. You guys all look at someone like Owen Hart and see mediocrity in his mic skills and above average in-ring skills. Well, the Miz had superior mic skills and average in-ring skills, yet he is doing a great job as champion and is the "must see" champion for a reason. Why is it so far-fetched to say that Owen wouldn't fill those same shoes?

We have to keep in mind that the business has SEVERELY changed over the past few decades since the 90's. Smaller men are becoming world champions and are drawing numbers. Unexpected wins are par for the course. 7-foot giants are now becoming curtain jerkers. If you placed Owen Hart in today's market, I have no doubt that this man would have held the world championship. And he wouldn't have to do his own promotion's booking to reach that pinnacle.

So if we're sitting on so much hypotheses, why not toss that one in there, as well? Why not view Owen as if he were still alive and in his prime? This man defeated Bret Hart during the biggest milestone Wrestlemania since WM3 on the same night that Hart defeated Yokozuna (a man who defeated HULK fucking HOGAN for the world title), and all of this while Bret Hart was in his prime. You guys call Owen Hart overrated? I say he's got some pretty good fucking reasoning to be rated so highly, and justifiably so. Everyone needs to stop selling him so short in this match just because Kevin Nash is... well... Kevin Nash.

 

[Big Sexy]

I think people forget that it wasn't so much that these guys couldn't draw - the problem was they were working with garbage men, dentists, clowns, pig farmers, a 600lb (Samoan) sumo wrestler et cetera and the world just wasn't interested in such a cartoon landscape on the back of the death of kayfabe with the steroid scandal and Vince admitting it wasn't a sport for tax purposes.

I agree completely. The fact that WCW had a better product at many times throughout the early head to head wars was another thing that contributed. I always find some of the "poor draw" arguments against the WWF guys in the mid 90's a little weak because of the points you made and the one I just added.

 

[Big Sexy]

There are many wrestlers out there that plenty of the IWC consider to be "overrated" and yet they carry the torch of the world championship just fine. The Miz is a perfect example of this. You guys all look at someone like Owen Hart and see mediocrity in his mic skills and above average in-ring skills. Well, the Miz had superior mic skills and average in-ring skills, yet he is doing a great job as champion and is the "must see" champion for a reason. Why is it so far-fetched to say that Owen wouldn't fill those same shoes?

We have to keep in mind that the business has SEVERELY changed over the past few decades since the 90's. Smaller men are becoming world champions and are drawing numbers. Unexpected wins are par for the course. 7-foot giants are now becoming curtain jerkers. If you placed Owen Hart in today's market, I have no doubt that this man would have held the world championship. And he wouldn't have to do his own promotion's booking to reach that pinnacle.

So if we're sitting on so much hypotheses, why not toss that one in there, as well? Why not view Owen as if he were still alive and in his prime? This man defeated Bret Hart during the biggest milestone Wrestlemania since WM3 on the same night that Hart defeated Yokozuna (a man who defeated HULK fucking HOGAN for the world title), and all of this while Bret Hart was in his prime. You guys call Owen Hart overrated? I say he's got some pretty good fucking reasoning to be rated so highly, and justifiably so. Everyone needs to stop selling him so short in this match just because Kevin Nash is... well... Kevin Nash.

I'm not selling Owen short just saying he wouldn't win. The Miz comparison is a little weak because like you said Owen had superior ring skills and weaker mic skills while Miz has superior mic skills and is a little weaker in the ring. It's always easier to draw and be champion when you have superior mic skills over ring skills.

When it comes to Owen in today's WWE he probably would have had a title reign but that's because it is a completely different era. I mean Jack fucking Swagger has had a world title reign. However, if you put Nash in this era along with Owen then Nash is still the more successful of the two. You can use the A beat B and B beat C so A should beat C argument if you want but things rarely work out like that.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

There is one other factor that goes in Owen's favour. He edges Big Daddy Cool in winning tournaments - he did carry the 'King of Harts' moniker for a good reason.

 

[nightmare]

The fact Owen never had a world title means shit honestly. There are so many factors as to why, it is irrelevant & is an insult to his ability. Nash's WWF title run was decent, at best, & the kliq had alot to do with him being in the spotlight. His booking in WCW was cause for his title runs (dosent mean as much if you just hand yourelf the belt). Nash was pretty good on the mic & definatley had a crowd behind him. He has a great following. He is a great big man. Unfortunately this isnt a fucking popularity contest. Nash is highly injury prone, even in his prime.

Owen was never the biggest, (but the Hart family loved to make the big guys cry like babies), nor the strongest. Dosent mean he cant beat Nash. If Owen was alive today he would have as many if not more titles than Nash. In a fight, Nash would throw Owen around a bit, Owen would use his speed to wear him out. A tired nash would fall victim to good old fashioned de-construction by a trained member of the hart family dungeon. Nash's legs would get taken out, Sharpshooter for the win.