WCW Nitro and Thunder roster split in 1998

[Ubermensch]

Alright, so the previous thread on how to save WCW got me thinking. WCW in 1998 was extremely top heavy. By that I mean from the upper mid-card guys to the main event wrestlers you had so many competitors on that level that I think part of WCW's problem was an inability to manage these established stars and their egos.

One of the main problems was too many established, older, bigger stars.

My main point is this. Where most in the IWC recognize that the WWE needed a roster split in 2001 after acquiring ECW and WCW. I believe WCW 1998 warranted a roster split even more than 2001 WWE.

WCW Thunder was not intended to be a big "B" show. Like Smackdown, it sort of ended up that way later on once everything started going under.

If you look at late 1998, WCW had the following wrestlers on payroll.

Hulk Hogan, The Ultimate Warrior, Roddy Piper, Bret Hart, DDP, Rick Flair, Macho Man, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Bill Goldberg, The Giant, Lex Luger, Sting, and arguably; Henning and Scott Steiner.

If you contrast that with the WCW/ECW Alliance, it's apparent that the WWE did not get the best talent from the WCW. The only real main event wrestler they acquired was Booker T.

With a roster split, you actually give more opportunity to the rising mid card talent that the WCW missed out on. Especially Jericho, Mysterio, Guerrero, and Benoit. In addition, WCW still had Japanese and Luchadore wrestlers that were on the lower mid card. This ended up being a very bloated roster.

I would have had one Heavyweight title defended on both shows. The US title on Nitro. TV title (may need to be renamed), on Thunder, and the tag titles defended on both. I would have gotten rid of the Cruiserweight title, there were too many wrestlers that circulated between the TV and Cruiserweight belt.

I think with a roster split WCW may have been more sustainable in the long run. As it was, the same big names dominated TV time on both shows.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Hmmm, I disagree. From the financial standpoint, all a roster split does is up your costs because you are now setting up two separate tours. It's also maintaining an overloaded roster when what was really called for was to hand out some pink slips. If WCW had been riding high, and had been bringing in WWF-level PPV buys, I could understand it as a means to get more growth, but I think they had to circle their wagons and cut costs more.

It's interesting that you bring up the WCW purchase and that all the WWE got was Booker T. Part of that was due to the fact that they simply weren't offering the money that a lot of those guys were expecting to make. The WWF didn't want to become too roster heavy either unless it was at bargain rates.

 

[TDFG]

It's also maintaining an overloaded roster when what was really called for was to hand out some pink slips.

Agreed, WCW needed to have a cull before any thoughts of a roster split.

WWE got the backbone of a cruiserweight division when they purchased WCW, they didn't know how to use it to their advantage. They also had Awesome & Storm who could have been used better.

 

[Headman]

WCW Saturday Night was almost a roster split. You never really saw the big stars on the show. Hell, Jericho was practically born and raised there. As for an actual roster split, I hated the idea when the WWE did it and I would have hated it if WCW did it. The WWE should have trimmed the fat instead of creating two lack luster rosters. WCW on the other hand was hoarding talent with no intention of using them. It was just a strategy to keep them away from the WWF so I really can't fault that move.

 

[My Couch Pulls Out But I Don't]

You lost me at the part where you said you'd get rid of the cruiserweight title.

The cruiserweights were the workhorses of WCW. I remember many of the cruiserweight matches overshadowing their main events, even at PPVs.

The crisuerweight division was one thing, I think, WCW did somewhat right the whole time.

I will agree with the previous poster who said that WCW really needed to be handing out pink slips like they were going out of style.

 

[enviousdominous]

It's my understanding that WCW had over 200 performers on the payroll even though they hardly ever appeared on tv. I think the idea was that if they can horde as many performers as they can, then the WWF wouldn't be able to hire them. Plus one or two of them would spontaneously pop up as a random nWo member.

It's also my understanding that presenting Thunder was a logistical nightmare for Eric Bischoff as it was all Ted Turner's idea, but Time Warner wasn't willing to pony up any additional employees to run the show or even fork over any extra cash to fund the show. Bischoff had to run extra house shows to make up for the production costs and tax his staff even harder with hard labor to get it ready for tv.

I think it would have helped if all the maddening levels of stupidity Bischoff was putting up with actually started to serve a purpose. Half the crew is exclusive to Nitro, half the crew is exclusive to Thunder. Nitro is a showcase of stars, Thunder is a proving ground for newcomers and cruiser weights.

 

[MMK]

While normally I hate the idea of a roster split, I think it was warranted for WCW in 1998. The nWo had become over saturated by then and it was unnecessary for them to appear on both shows. So perhaps nWo gains control of NITRO while WCW has THUNDER. The NWO could still keep a few WCW guys on the nitro roster just to torture them and make it impossible for them to succeed, while on Thunder it would be more of a pure wrestling show. If this had been done properly, theoretically Benoit, Eddie, Saturn, Malenko and Jericho may have never left seeing has how they wouldn't have constantly been in the shadow of the older nWo performers. A WCW championship could have been created specifically for Thunder while the old spraypainted title would be property of nWo Nitro.

NWO NITRO: nWo World Title/ U.S Title/ World Tag Team titles
Hulk Hogan/ Scott Hall/ Kevin Nash/ Randy Savage/ Scott Steiner/ Bagwell/ Brian Adams/ Scott Norton/ Konnan
Goldberg/ Sting/ Ric Flair/ Arn Anderson/ Lex Luger/ DDP/ Roddy Piper/ Ultimate Warrior/ Rick Steiner

WCW THUNDER: WCW World Title/ Cruiserweight Title/ Tag titles
Bret Hart/ Chris Jericho/ Chris Benoit/ Rey Mysterio/ Eddie Guerrero/ Raven/ Curt Hennig/ Saturn/ Dean Malenko/ Psicosis/ Jushin Liger/ La Parka/ Muta/ Steven Regal/ The Bulldog/ Jim Neidhart/ Marty Jannetty/ Billy Kidman

and, looking back now, it would have been a great idea for WCW to sign Kurt Angle and have him compete on the Thunder roster.

 

[The_Juicer]

I don't think a roster split would have worked in WCW. Can you imagine how mis managed that would have been?

 

[Wald]

This is all in hindsight but I'd have gone full hog with the idea that WCW was in competition with itself and made Nitro the sports entertainment show, Thunder the old school wrestling show and Saturday Night their less violent version of ECW.

If you look at the WCW roster at the time you could have had the cruiserweights, tag teams like Public Enemy, The Faces of Fear and hardcore guys like Scotty Riggs, Sick Boy, Hugh Morrus etc. all work primarily on the Saturday show. Rip off early Raw and run it from a small arena in a hot market even, keeps costs down.

Thunder could have been the home of Flair, Bret Hart, Benoit, Jericho, Malenko and tag teams like Harlem Heat, the Steiners & Windhams, Piper, Perfect, Regal and more cruiserweights and made it more like an old school show to keep the NWA fans happy and bring over the WWF fans leaving because of the Attitude Era.

Nitro could have been stacked with Hogan, DDP, Sting, the Outsiders, Goldberg, Giant etc. and been more storyline based to compete with Raw.

 

[Ubermensch]

While normally I hate the idea of a roster split, I think it was warranted for WCW in 1998. The nWo had become over saturated by then and it was unnecessary for them to appear on both shows. So perhaps nWo gains control of NITRO while WCW has THUNDER. The NWO could still keep a few WCW guys on the nitro roster just to torture them and make it impossible for them to succeed, while on Thunder it would be more of a pure wrestling show. If this had been done properly, theoretically Benoit, Eddie, Saturn, Malenko and Jericho may have never left seeing has how they wouldn't have constantly been in the shadow of the older nWo performers. A WCW championship could have been created specifically for Thunder while the old spraypainted title would be property of nWo Nitro.

NWO NITRO: nWo World Title/ U.S Title/ World Tag Team titles
Hulk Hogan/ Scott Hall/ Kevin Nash/ Randy Savage/ Scott Steiner/ Bagwell/ Brian Adams/ Scott Norton/ Konnan
Goldberg/ Sting/ Ric Flair/ Arn Anderson/ Lex Luger/ DDP/ Roddy Piper/ Ultimate Warrior/ Rick Steiner

WCW THUNDER: WCW World Title/ Cruiserweight Title/ Tag titles
Bret Hart/ Chris Jericho/ Chris Benoit/ Rey Mysterio/ Eddie Guerrero/ Raven/ Curt Hennig/ Saturn/ Dean Malenko/ Psicosis/ Jushin Liger/ La Parka/ Muta/ Steven Regal/ The Bulldog/ Jim Neidhart/ Marty Jannetty/ Billy Kidman

and, looking back now, it would have been a great idea for WCW to sign Kurt Angle and have him compete on the Thunder roster.

If I recall correctly the idea of getting the NWO their own show had been tossed around. Although I am not sure how this would have worked. If the NWO was supposed become some kind of separate brand how would their 20+ wrestlers transition from wrestling against WCW to each other?

I was never a big fan of the WCW/NWO marketing because eventually the NWO had to go away. This meant that old n64 games like Revenge and the NWO NASCAR does not make much sense now.

What I neglected to mention that I hope strengthens my argument, is that the NWO Black and White and Wolfpack split could have coincided nicely with this roster split. Now I don't know how it would have panned out. I would have put the newer Wolfpack on Thunder. They may have been a heel group or they may not. The smaller 4 Horsemen could have feuded with the Wolfpack on Thunder while the main event WCW guys feud against the NWO Black and White.

As stated I would make the World Title fluent on both shows. I ax the Cruiserweight title because those guys do not compete with only cruiserweights and many of the champions moved in and out of title scene for the TV title and Cruiserweight belt.

Heavyweight Title: Both shows
Tag titles: Both shows

Nitro

TV title exclusive.

Because the show is three hours it needs longer in-ring action provided by lighter, more entertaining, and in shape wrestlers in the cruiserweight division. Therefore the Luchadores, and Japanese wrestlers would be on this roster in addition to the American cruiserweights. Nitro would be highlighted with longer matches and more high flying mid card guys.

The NWO Black and White would be exclusive to Nitro. Hogan would lead the NWO Black and White with The Giant as his muscle, Steiner as his second, and the large host of midcarders as the backbone.

WCW main event wrestlers would be Hart, DDP, Sting, Goldberg, and eventually The Warrior. Hart may or may not lead a faction with Bulldog and Neidhart.

Jericho, Mysterio, and Guerrero would be my rising stars on this show.

Thunder

Would US title exclusive.

Thunder would be my grittier, more story-line driven show. It would be answer to the Attitude era and suffice the fans who prefer grittier story lines and theatrics over the match driven programming of Nitro.

The Wolfpack would be smaller than the Black and White but still heels. Macho Man would be the leader, with Hall, Nash, and Konan comprising the rest of the group.

The 4 Horsemen would be Flair, Luger, Benoit, and Mongo and feud with the Wolfpack.

The Wolfpack and Horsemen would have gang style brawls and stable wars and end up headlining War Games.

I would also take the page from ECW that WWF noticed first, and include hardcore wrestling as a stable on Thunder to add to add the heat to the grittier story lines.

Benoit would be my rising superstar on this show based off his past in ECW and main event involvement with the Horsemen.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

If I recall an Eric Bischoff interview correctly (perhaps on the Bret Hart DVD), he mentions that one of the reasons he wanted to sign Bret in the first place was to add more main event talent in order to successfully launch Thunder. Whether true or not, it seems that they had at least some vision of a roster split by late 1997.

The big names rarely showed up on Thunder. Hogan was never there. Nash was sometimes there. Goldberg if I remember correctly really started to build his streak on Thunder but then would make rare, non-title defences on the show once he won the title.

I remember Thunder being all about DDP, Konnan, Raven and Jericho... and some upper midcard / borderline main event guys like Giant and Scott Steiner. They certainly could have spread the talent around a little better, but it really did seem like the "B" show.

 

[MrHashasheen]

It's my understanding that WCW had over 200 performers on the payroll even though they hardly ever appeared on tv. I think the idea was that if they can horde as many performers as they can, then the WWF wouldn't be able to hire them. Plus one or two of them would spontaneously pop up as a random nWo member.

Oh they appeared on TV, they just didn't show up on Nitro. You usually saw them on Saturday Night or one of the D-Shows like Worldwide or Power Hour, which mostly got cancelled sometime in late 1998 as the logistical strain got too much. WCW had an open-door policy of sorts for those shows to test some match-ups and some of the independent guys or veterans for possible signings. After Thunder popped up Saturday Night also got used for them, with the Television Championship a usual main event feature.

There are some astounding cases though, like Randy Savage's brother who never called to wrestle on a single show for the four or five years he was on contract.

 

[Ubermensch]

I don't believe Thunder was originally a B show. It may not have been on level with Nitro, but I don't think it started as a B show. Sting made appearances on there as well as the other top stars.

Thunder, like Smackdown, started on the same level or at least closed to Nitro/Raw but it ended dwindling.

That seems to be the point of the roster split in my eyes, at first Thunder was the same faces dominating Nitro that you wanted to see twice a week.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

The problem with both Thunder and SmackDown, if they were booked as equal A shows with the same A talent as Nitro/Raw, is that there simply isn't enough to keep two weekly shows hot like that. WWE has a hard enough time keeping one weekly show hot right now. WCW had the same problem with Nitro in late 1999.

As we saw in 1999, which was when SmackDown was at it's best, storylines moved way too fast. Title matches occurring weekly or even twice a week. You end up either watering down your overall product, or burning through months worth of storylines in just weeks.

Especially, I think SmackDown was even live for a period of time. It puts a strain on talent, creative and the entire production crew. There's just no way it could remain sustainable. What WWE did with the brand extension was a smart way to keep two shows interesting. They should have gone even further, and not had as much crossover and inter-promotional stuff as they did at the time. WCW could have easily done this in a creative way.

- Thunder could have been an nWo-expansion type of show, similar to how they had a nWo Nitro episode and an nWo PPV in Souled Out.
- They could have made nWo completely take over Nitro, pushing a lot of WCW stars exclusively to Thunder and then sent the nWo Wolfpac to Thursday's to "expand the takeover".
- They could have had Bret Hart show up with a prop World Championship and claim that he was never defeated and is still the world champion, and start his own show on Thunder revolving around him and guys like Flair, Hennig and Sting jumping to Thursday nights to try and take his title.
- Or They could have taken a more traditional approach and used exclusive talent like Bret Hart, Randy Savage, Lex Luger, Chris Jericho, Raven, Eddie Guerrero... guys with talent who weren't getting enough time on Nitro, and showcasing them exclusively on Thunder, with the United States Championship being their top belt.
- Or they could have taken a similar traditional approach but brought back their International Championship.

There's many ways they could have gone. WCW had so much talent, and so many lower card guys they could still carry the 'C' show in Saturday Night with developmental guys and people they were pushing in squashes like Wrath and Glacier.

 

[justtxyank]

First let me say that I hate the entire idea of a brand split. It's ridiculous and contrived and the whole creation of a second "world title" is incredibly stupid and devalues the titles in the company.

If you look at late 1998, WCW had the following wrestlers on payroll.

Hulk Hogan, The Ultimate Warrior, Roddy Piper, Bret Hart, DDP, Rick Flair, Macho Man, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Bill Goldberg, The Giant, Lex Luger, Sting, and arguably; Henning and Scott Steiner.

This is very misleading.

In late 1998:
Hulk Hogan: Worked a reduced schedule. No house shows and rarely would put in a tv match
Ultimate Warrior: Was around for 90 days
Roddy Piper: No house shows, struggling with injuries, rarely worked consistently
Bret Hart: OK
DDP: OK
Ric Flair: OK
Macho Man: Was out with an injury for basically the entire second half of 1998 into the first part of 1999.
Nash: OK
Hall: Was in and out of WCW with suspensions, drug issues, no shows, etc.
Goldberg: OK
Giant: OK, but was on his way out with everyone in the company knowing his time was up when his contract expired
Luger: OK
Sting: Was gone from Halloween Havoc 1998 until Spring Stampede 1999
Hennig: Alcohol and knee issues kept him from being a full time roster member for the second half of 1998 until the early part of 1999.
Scott Steiner: Didn't become a main evener until 1999

There was no need for a roster split. They were top heavy with a lot of old guys who could not be counted on to carry house show tours or to be regulars in tv matches.

 

[Ubermensch]

First let me say that I hate the entire idea of a brand split. It's ridiculous and contrived and the whole creation of a second "world title" is incredibly stupid and devalues the titles in the company.



This is very misleading.

In late 1998:
Hulk Hogan: Worked a reduced schedule. No house shows and rarely would put in a tv match
Ultimate Warrior: Was around for 90 days
Roddy Piper: No house shows, struggling with injuries, rarely worked consistently
Bret Hart: OK
DDP: OK
Ric Flair: OK
Macho Man: Was out with an injury for basically the entire second half of 1998 into the first part of 1999.
Nash: OK
Hall: Was in and out of WCW with suspensions, drug issues, no shows, etc.
Goldberg: OK
Giant: OK, but was on his way out with everyone in the company knowing his time was up when his contract expired
Luger: OK
Sting: Was gone from Halloween Havoc 1998 until Spring Stampede 1999
Hennig: Alcohol and knee issues kept him from being a full time roster member for the second half of 1998 until the early part of 1999.
Scott Steiner: Didn't become a main evener until 1999

There was no need for a roster split. They were top heavy with a lot of old guys who could not be counted on to carry house show tours or to be regulars in tv matches.

I see your point but these wrestlers were still on the roster and on the pay scale. Which means once they return from leave, or injury time that they would have to fit in.

I will concede Steiner was not a main event wrestler but he was being pushed heavily. It was apparent WCW wanted him to be the top heel in the near future as a more heavily roided version of Hollywood Hogan.

I see your point about the Warrior as well but October is late in the year to me.

 

[justtxyank]

I see your point but these wrestlers were still on the roster and on the pay scale. Which means once they return from leave, or injury time that they would have to fit in.

Again, the majority of those guys didn't work house shows. It was hard enough for WCW to keep up the House Show circuit without a brand split. Read about Luger in 1997 being the hero of the company because he was one of the only stars that was on the house show circuit. He kept attendance up and kept WCW making money.

I see your point about the Warrior as well but October is late in the year to me.

He can't count as a potential name to help with a brand split if he was only there for a few weeks. That's like saying WWE needs another brand split if Brock, The Rock, Hogan and Austin are all back on the show between now and Wrestlemania.

 

[whoopin' ass]

It depends on how you do it. I think you can do a roster split without letting the fans on that it is happening. It isn't a big deal in regards to talent - if both shows are live, you just send them to whatever show and it is no big deal. If you are taping one, again you just use them for that show only so no biggie.

I think the key is not to let the audience know that the split is on. Split your talent but do have the occasional crossovers to keep up the surprises. For example, if you did a major angle at a ppv with people from Thunder, no reason why they can't come out on the following Nitro afterwards and have a match/set something up for Thunder. You don't want to do it all the time but if it was a big angle, it seems silly they would wait until Thunder to react. Also don't keep the talent on the one show too long - every few months swap a couple people so that in 8-12 months, a large part of the roster had changed. While it was fun to watch, I hated the wwe lottery as it was kind if dumb - you've been on Smackdown too long, time to move you to Raw. You don't need to make a major roster change all at once, do little changes here and there.

I think the biggest thing is not to have specific titles for each show or to say "Bret Hart, you can only see him here at Thunder" as that starts to place importance on a show. As long as your top guys make an occasional appearance on the other show, people won't see a difference. That is where both WCW and WWE screwed up - create a second show but never have your top guy appear on it and treat the people who are there as lesser talent. You don't treat it as 2 separate shows, you treat it as part 2 of your show for that week.

 

[Bobbywoodhogan]

I think it definitely did, there was a massive amount of talent on the roster, some of which was just waiting to burst onto the big scene.

I would have had the nWo disband after Starrcade 97 with the Outsiders turning on. Hogan, creating a smaller faction called the Wolfpac. With the nWo disbanding I would create a level of distrust between the full WCW roster, Bischoff becomes frustrated and announces a roster split with half the talent on Nitro and half the talent on Thunder.

Nitro would hold the World Heavyweight Championship (The Big Gold Belt), the US Title, the Tag Team Titles and the Cruiserweight Title

Thunder would hold the new WCW Title, TV Title and the new Cruiserweight Tag Team Titles.

I think there were more than enough Cruiserweights to have two separate divisions. You need to keep the Cruiserweight title on. Nitro as the show has to open with a Cruiserweight match.

The vacant titles would be decided building up on Thunder all the way through to Superbrawl.

I think WCW could have really benefited and they could have built up to their own Superbowl of Nitro vs Thunder thus keeping the product fresh. Could have either taken over Starrcade or Superbrawl.

Nitro to be more storyline based but Thunder more wrestling based but of course still with storylines just not as much promo work as Nitro. Have both shows be two hours and for the love of god brighten Thunder up.

I would turn WCW Saturday Night into a show focused on showing Nitro highlights and WCW Worldwide into a show showing Thunder highlights.

 

[sMark]

I think WCW could benefit from roster split in yearly 98, they had alot of main event caliber stars who couldn't coexist on the same show due to their massive egos and creative control options.
I would make Nitro use nWo, USA, Hardcore & TV titles and Thunder to use WHT, Cruise & Tag Team belts, so the two brands would be totally separated from each other and can tour different cities only to travel at the same time for PPVs.

Nitro roster will consist of: nWo (Hogan, Nash, Giant, Bugwell, Syxx, Savage), DDP, Luger, Goldberg, Raven Flocks (Raven, Kidman, Saturn, Morrus), Regal, Dave Taylor, Kanyon, Fit Finlay, Scott Norton, Wrath, Bam Bam Bigelow, Norman Smiley, Alex Wright, Konnan, Marty Jannetty, Mango

the first rivalries should be DDP vs Hogan, Nash vs Giant, Goldberg's streak
comissioner - Roddy Piper

Thunder roster: Harts Foundation (Bret hart, British Bulldog, Jim Neidhart), 4 Horsemen (Flair, Hennig, Anderson, Malenko, Benoit), Sting, Scott Hall, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Chavo Guerrero, Ultimo Dragon, Chono & Nagata, Harlem Heat, Steiners, Psicosis & La Parka

comissioner - Ric Flair

first feuds - Sting vs Hall, 4 Horsemen vs Harts Foundation, Jericho vs Guerrero

i will not show Bret Hart on WCW tv or PPVs until the very first Thunder program, so i can draw in more viewers and will launch it in Montreal if possible. Thunder will probably be taped the day before so it can cost less.