WWE Divas should be removed.
- Thread starter Mantaur Rodeo Clown
- Start date
Spaceman Spif
Getting Noticed By Management
Truth be told, I'm on the fence about this one, I don't mind them, but I also couldn't care if we didn't have them. However they won't be removed, as the divas can actually contribute a lot to a show from time to time. There are smoe divas who can just flat out wrestle, and others who can't but are at least trying to better themselves, then there are those who can't wrestle, aren't trying and are seemingly just eye candy.
So here is my proposal.. if you can wrestle and wrestle well, give them tv time and matches without string attached, just let them wrestle. If they can't wrestle, but want to learn, hook them up with one's who can wrestle, to help them along as for the ones who can't wrestle and don't want to learn, leave the WWE divas page, I guess. I don't know I guess I really don't have to much of an idea as to what to do with them, mainly because I can't be bothered by them either way.
So here is my proposal.. if you can wrestle and wrestle well, give them tv time and matches without string attached, just let them wrestle. If they can't wrestle, but want to learn, hook them up with one's who can wrestle, to help them along as for the ones who can't wrestle and don't want to learn, leave the WWE divas page, I guess. I don't know I guess I really don't have to much of an idea as to what to do with them, mainly because I can't be bothered by them either way.
I don't mind catching a glimpse of Kelly Kelly, Layla and Maryse for about 30 seconds every week, but that's as far as my caring for the Divas go. I think the rest of them are butt ass ugly worthless broads, and it wouldn't affect me one way or another if WWE decided to get rid of them.
However, it would affect plenty of other fans out there. Believe it or not, the divas do have a fan base, and a fairly large one at that. So, to just do away with the divas just because you and I don't like them is terrible business, and would also be extremely selfish on our part if we were giving the power to do so.
However, it would affect plenty of other fans out there. Believe it or not, the divas do have a fan base, and a fairly large one at that. So, to just do away with the divas just because you and I don't like them is terrible business, and would also be extremely selfish on our part if we were giving the power to do so.
Canadian Knight
Maple Leaf Warrior
Personally I dont think they should need 2 Belts but removal from the WWE? Although alot seem to be eye candy, they do attract alot of attention in the ring. It is said that they give more to the match then the men themselves. In fact some of they're matches have been really good.
Mantaur Rodeo Clown
X-Pac Rules
Exactly. No one cares. So why have two whole divisions over two shows devoted to them?
Well that can be easily solved. Have promo time or segments on RAW to fill in the gaps. Have longer entertaining backstage angles to kill time instead. And during ECW/Smackdown Tapings just have intermissions and edit them out. Simple.
ALso, if you're beating off to the WWE divas, be forewarned, you never know when a shot of Michael Cole will enter the screen.
The Divas had a great match? Sure Melina/McCool was okay. But Mickie James Maryse was terrible. You cannot tell me that the time spent on this would not have been of better use given to another match such as the 6 pack challenge.
Are you kidding me? What big stars did the WWE womens division ever have? I'll tell you. Lita and Trish Stratus. And they left years ago. There is no excuse for the dvision being the way it is.
Well judging from what I've been reading, not many people think it's that abhorrent to get rid of the division. And theyre lying if they say they truly enjoy watching more that 60 seconds of diva at a time.
The division isn't getting better and better. It just isnt. One match does not make the whole division better or make it relevant.
Are you saying that there have never been any great women in valet/mangerial roles? Sensational Sherri would be turning in her grave.
Negative. I just watched ECW. Zack Ryder is the man.
I implore you to read the rest of the posts. Im not the only one that think so.
Trish Vs. Lita was never as big as Rock Vs Austin. Don't kid yourself.
Sorry Deej, there is no way you would pull anything along those sorts of ratings at all if it were an all divas show. Even if it was filled with RAW Recaps. If anything, it would only boost other show ratings because the divas are no longer on them.
Just because it is discriminating doesn't make it any less hot.
I was saying I don't understand why you're posting it here at WrestleZone. None of the regulars, that I know of, really care about the Divas. Theres hardly ever any threads about them, and if there is they hardly get any replies. You should take it to another forum, with bigger diva fans, because we here at WrestleZone, are big Diva fans.
Wrong. Its hard enough for some of the wrestlers to make a good promo, with the time they have. Those who don't get mic time, usually suck on the mic. The Divas do their job, and have okay wrestling matches, showing new moves each and every match. You're looking at a weakend divas division, and are deciding to just cut them off. Theres a reason you're not in creative.
Uh?
Maryse and James was okay, yes. Melina/McCool was great, to say the least. It was better than Rey vs Ziggler, thats for sure.
Years ago? They left two year ago, if that? You make it sound like they left 15 years ago. Once again, the Divas division is still being rebuilt, I'm sure its hard to find many women that just decide "HEY! I'm going to join wrestling today!" Those that do, are batshit ugly, and don't meet the WWE standards.
Once again, you're at a forum where the divas aren't so praised. I can direct you to about 15 pure diva forums. Each with just as many decently respected members as we have. The Divas have a good source of fans.
Yes it is. Melina and McCool proves the division is getting better. Maryse is learning new moves day in and day out, to get 10x better. Mickie may not be great, but shes really got that whole "Trish" charisma going for her. the croud eats her up too.
Sherri was okay. The most realavence she ever had was to add sex appeal for Shawn Michaels. Which Shawn Michaels had more sex appeal than Sherri dreamed about.
Then you should know, theres at least two diva matches/segments per show.
I implore you to look at who said it. Find me a respectable poster that agrees with you. Then talk. People who watch the show through and through, and are respectable posters around here, may not like the Divas, but they know they do their job well. They're meeting the needs the WWE has for them, and the point of the show.
Fuck man, I tottally said this in my post. Way to put words in my mouth. That was just ludacrous of you. I've just lost any respect for your posting.
Trish vs Lita was bigger than any midcard fued going at the time of their fued. Granted it was no where near as big as Rock vs Austin, it certainly was bigger than the whole Hardy/E&C storyline that was going at the time.
Nobody really cares about the WNBA, either.
The attitude era completely degraded the value of female wrestlers in the WWE. Sure, I love sexy anti-heel divas too; but fads are fads. They end, move on. Divas should be less about eye candy ; more on athleticism. Kelly Kelly was hired to the WWE with no actual wrestling experience at all. Even when I was a smark, long time ago, I never found the divas division any special or entertaining.
In my opinion, you rebuild it. No, you don't make eye candy divas wear pants, that makes it worse. You get athletes that can actually wrestle, acquire decent mic skills, etc. All the same if it were a male wrestler.
Honesty, I don't see anything changing any time soon. Divas matches will remain to be an indication to get a beer or a bathroom break every week on RAW
The attitude era completely degraded the value of female wrestlers in the WWE. Sure, I love sexy anti-heel divas too; but fads are fads. They end, move on. Divas should be less about eye candy ; more on athleticism. Kelly Kelly was hired to the WWE with no actual wrestling experience at all. Even when I was a smark, long time ago, I never found the divas division any special or entertaining.
In my opinion, you rebuild it. No, you don't make eye candy divas wear pants, that makes it worse. You get athletes that can actually wrestle, acquire decent mic skills, etc. All the same if it were a male wrestler.
Honesty, I don't see anything changing any time soon. Divas matches will remain to be an indication to get a beer or a bathroom break every week on RAW
Deexter Jorgan
Has a Dark Passenger on board...
[115]FalKon;1254610 said:
The fact is most people have been trained to look at Divas as more objects and piss breaks then actual talented women, the divas have alot to get over before womens wrestling will actually be taken seriously but i asure you look at the list of Wrestlers the WWE actually has in the divas division.
_ Gail Kim Former Womens and Knockouts champion, now she is back in the WWE and has made the Knockouts division in TNA nearly Unwatchable due to the fact that her and awesome Kong where carrying one of TNA'S most highest rated divisions always scoring a high rating on Impact bringing in over 700,000 viewers.
- Beth Phoenix Sexy yet dominant Beth has held two different Womens championships in the WWE and is totally amazing on the Mic, she has single handedly held down the Womens division on Raw for almost two years as champion and made Melina look credible as a face.
-Mickie JamesThe most dominant Diva in the WWE at this time capturing 5 different Womens championships and One Divas championship run, giving the title the credibility that it otherwise wouldn't have gotten on Smackdown, she has even had the torch passed by Trish and Lita both veterans of the old WWE womens division.
- Michelle Mc Cool Single handedly making Smackdowns Divas Division watchable again, Mccool has had matches with some of the best in the business and had a watchable and interesting Womens title match at Night Of Champions which was by far one of the best ive seen in a long time.
- Jillian Hall Dont let those fake lips fool you, she is a damn good wrestler and one of the best talents in the new Divas division, if given the chance Jillian could out wrestle and hang with alot of the current incarnation of the Divas and make it look good.
- Kelly Kelly The former Barbie Blank has made a splash in the wwe being a former piece of eye candy but has also proven she can wrestle, the match she had with Maryse showed that she can dominate as well as put on an ariel assault so i will list Kelly with the other wrestling talent.
- Natalya Neidhart By far the one women in the divas Division who has pure power and sex appeal, Nattie can make you squirm in more ways then you can count, by either putting on a technical clinic or by showing off photos with her in her undies, by far my favorite of the new generation on smackdown i just hope she gets to go after the title soon.
- Eve By far this girl has amazing ability and has shown with training and conditioning that she can put on a worth while match with Divas like Natty, the dropkick she did was amazing and the Moonsault looked sick, with more training she will be one of the best im sure of it
- Katie Lee Burchill Not only have i trained with this women but by fair i nearly lost my right ankle for her, she has the skill, the ability and the mic work to go far she is a former OVW womens champion and has actuallly wrestled sucessfully against male veterans in the past, she has the sex appeal and the skill to go far but is currently being held back by her ties to paul burchill, there both talent and it sucks to have them being buried the way they have been.
Now lets look at the none wrestling talent
- Maria: has blown every chance she has had, she has proven time and time again that she should just stick to being a valet more then anything
- Lilian: Anounces shows, enough said
- Tiffany GM of ECW again enough said hasn't done enough to comment
- Bellas: Waste of space cant wrestle a lick.
- Maryse: Held the Divas title but didn't do anything with it.
If there are others i have not listed please let me know but this is the gist of them, and more or less the wrestlers outnumber the non wrestlers 9 to 5.
I say give them their own show, it will build them up slow and steadily and bring the divas into a more prominent position, the reason no one respects them at the moment is because they see them more as an attraction then as actual wrestlers which would change if they weren't exhibited as such.
Their you go it brings me back to the point why not give them Superstars, its not doing anything at the moment and could bring the Divas division closer to the respect they deserve, higher more actual wrestlers to and give the non wrestling talent other roles such as commentators, announcers and such so that you dont have to have them work in the ring altogether and let the actual wrestlers do their jobs.
Exactly Natalya is a good example, she is the mouth piece of the Dynasty and gets in their with them, she is accomplishing more now then her father ever did in his WWE career outside of tag team wrestling, trust me if we get the womens title on her it would make the harts seem more dominant and get the faction over.
The Problem is that nobody cares, why not just devote one show to the whole division instead of two shows to segments of it, it would really work and if anyone actually saw the whole divas division of ECW it still scored a 1.1 so IMO you can still take a show and have Divas exhibited on it and the ratings will still remain constant.
The fact is Divas are needed to balance out the product, Knockouts on Impact are the highest rated segments in TNA's whole show beating at times the main event so why should we get rid of the Divas if we can make the division work better instead.
Ok credibility for you has just gone down the toilet.
Why should we the Womens match was better then the IC title match IMO, that because Melina and Michelle have an issue and the ongoing feud is working, but the problem is the WWE is not putting enough time into promoting their feud and using more time on other matches which wouldn't be an issue if they where given superstars instead.
Trish and Lita where given more time with bigger stars such as Lita with Edge and Trish with guys like the Rock they made these women equal to the men in promo time and in the ring, the whole reason edge retained the WWE championship was because of Lita, or when Matt had the best feud in his career was because of Lita so don't tell me that they dont matter, because your whole argument is being based on sexist opinions rather then history.
I watch it when i see actual wrestlers wrestle, same as the men, did i watch masters vs mvp?... no because masters cant wrestle and made MVP look bad because that meat head had to look credible.
The division has been going through a rapid progression, now more then ever it means something because women getting naked wont give them pushes anymore, its actually about wrestling talent and the WWE is focusing on it in its more PG orientated era, the fact is they need to have more faith in the division and maybe people like you will stop bashing it, because youd rather see porn then actual wrestling.
There has been alot of good managers, valets and even womens wrestlers the fact is people havent been giving them the chance they deserve women like sherri will make a return one day its the fact that more focus needs to be made on the women in general to help get them over without a is he my boyfriend storyline.
Who said it was? but it was bigger then any damn midcard feud they had at that time.
ECW had a 1.1 rating when it was an all Divas show and the main event was Nicky vs Brie so again your wrong mate.
It was stupid and wasn't hot at all
melissa_apop
Dark Match Jobber
Haha. Yikes.
I like the Divas. I think they're a lot of fun to watch....you need the female aspect. Also, I don't think half of the WWE fans I know would watch if it weren't for the Divas. Male and female! The men like the Divas for...well, obvious reasons, and the girls like the the Divas because the can relate on one level or another. Everyone knows this...I just like to enjoy the Divas before the shows get back to the more hardcore matches.
Mantaur Rodeo Clown
X-Pac Rules
Besides you and Degeneration Deej I haven't really seen a proper argument for the inclusion of the divas. Not one good argument other than "It helps break up the sausage fest" and that it is politically correct to have them. Im not saying removing women is a good idea. Just their matches. There is no way you can justify knocking me for having an opinion, or red repping me for being a noob. Which you did.
Well I don't have any qualifications so obviously I'm not on the writing team. But I like that fact that you said "The divas are doing their job". Well thats great, Melina does a great job of putting on mediocre matches that people can't pretend to care about. The question is, are these jobs essential to the WWE product. Hell no.
Thats personal opinion there. I thought Ziggler vs Mastrio was a great match, and much better than McCool/Melina
The fact that they can't find a good enough diva to lead the division should be tell tale sign enough that the division is failing. they don't have anyone up to the scratch of Stratus. What happened to Mickie James? Or Beth Phoenix. And even if Stratus had stayed around, there still would be no interest in the Womens division. No one cares, as much as you want them too. The most you could hope for is a sexy wrestling diva picture thread. Which is essentially what your Women of Wrestling thread should become.
Why should you have to direct me? surely if I take a sampling of JUST ONE wrestling forum I should be able to see the general feeling on divas and shouldnt have to go to a goddamn diva fansite to get some praise for them. I tell you what, I think the Holocaust was horrible, but I bet I could direct you to 15 pure nazi forums where they love it. Its all a matter of perspective, and a random forum should showcase whther people care for divas or not.
These are all moot points. It doesnt matter if the division is getting better or not. The potential of the division is very high, and male audiences are always going to have a hard time wanting to watch a womens division. Its a sad truth, so why not face it and stop pretending to like womens wrestling?
Fine. Diss Sherri. What about Miss Elizabeth? What about Stephanie McMahon? Female Valets and managers will always have their place at ringside, regardless of whether they are just there to add sex appeal or not. It's a moot point.
NoFate007. Slyfox 696. Two greatly respected posters.
Judging by the way you first started posting I highly doubted you had any respect in the first place.
Thats when people are told to review their favourite feuds or matches of all time, or even great feuds or matches, it never gets one mention. You're severely overrating it. Stop be so silly and come to grips with the fact that although it may have been one of the greatest womens feud ever, that means hardly anything. It's a big fish in a small pond.
How about, because ladies have the potential to be good? I mean, it's not like there's never been such a thing as a good woman's wrestler. Actually a pretty common concept, when you think about it. The women who are good at what they do may not be that much in the spotlight right now, but they're there. I promise you. Go watch Gail Kim and Mickie James. I swear to you, if you can look past the fact that they have vaginas, you'll find good wrestling.
It's not like Vince is struggling with them under contract. I mean, what's so bad about having them? They're not doing anything to hurt the product at all. And if they were to be gone, you can goodbye to a good portion of that 18-to-48 demographic. It's sad, but it's true... People tune in to watch these ladies, and how good they look.
Um, you do realize those are two of the better workers in the WWE right now, right? The fact you're at least making the comparison is somewhat weakening your stance. Fact is, Mantaur, Women's wrestling can be enjoyable.
You know, if you really wanted a strong argument, you should've used Jazz or Chyna. Trish is extremely overrated, because of how much she likes the business.
Yeah, what did happen to her? I mean, God, it's not like she's doing
Oh. There's that.
Now this, I'll kinda agree with, to an extent. She isn't booked too well right now. The Santino thing kind of cut her off at the legs. Still, the fact that you acknowledge they're there completely cuts off your argument. You're aware of them, and know they're working, no? And in an ideal world, you'd book them, no?
Which proves they have a meaning in the WWE.
And even if Stratus had stayed around, there still would be no interest in the Womens division. No one cares, as much as you want them too. The most you could hope for is a sexy wrestling diva picture thread. Which is essentially what your Women of Wrestling thread should become.
You'll find praise here. I'm not sure why you're of the belief you'll only find negative threads on here. Point me out to a thread that says Divas are "useless" other than this one, and you win a prize.
Yeah.... Not your best analogy to make here. The Holocaust hurt, oh, I don't know, roughly six million people. Diva's aren't hurting anyone. Sorry, thanks for playing
So wait, you acknowledge that women's wrestling has potential, yet say they should get rid of it? I mean, there you go right there. It has potential. It can be good. You have effectively weakened all that you've said before. Had you said there was no potential, I'd have a more difficult time. But, well, this pretty much shuts you down here.
I'm not sure if that was a diss on Sherri. Still, some women can manage, and some can wrestle. You've seen good wrestling women. So what's stopping you from believing they exist?
Eh, don't take it so hard. I've been red repped by Milky. Nothing personal to it, I promise
And the fact that pond exists means Vince is going to explore it. Period.
Mantaur Rodeo Clown
X-Pac Rules
You see, this is a clear shift in the attitude toward the wrestling itself. When you watch a womens match, I personally, although you may have a completely different outlook, drop my standards to fit what I am about to see. I mean sure Melina vs McCool was good, but it was great for a womens match. If you look past the vaginas, you find that the wrestling isnt all that enthralling I'm afraid. The scale can work both ways.
But they are taking up TV time. There are ALWAYS complaints about how some wrestler don't get enough time on TV. Not enough time to matches, not enough time to cut a promo and show their mic skills. I think cutting a divas match could give some time to this. It's not like the time would go to waste if they were cut.
Show me one person on this forum that tunes into RAW or Smackdown solely for womens wrestling and I'll show you a liar. Im not saying get rid of them all together. People can still see how good they look if theyre at ringside or in a backstage segment.
Why does it weaken my stance? That I enjoyed Ziggler's match MORE than McCool's? What so bad about that?
You could take Chyna or Jazz, and the argument is the same. there is more interest in watching men's wrestling than a womens match in todays market. Even when aiming toward kids, I'm pretty sure a male match would hold more interest than a womens match.
She'll feud with Maryse. She'll feud with Beth Pheonix. She'll feud with Gail Kim. All these things are goingto happen because they have nowhere else to go in such a poorly booked division and no one will care either way about the matches. It's a sad fact, and I wish it were more popular, and people could get really into the division itself. But you have to come to grips that it ISN'T as popular. So we're at the crossroads of continuing a mediocre, at best good division or getting rid of it to make way for a fresher newer look. A cruiserweight division would easily trump a womens division in popularity any day of the week.Yeah, what did happen to her? I mean, God, it's not like she's doing
Oh. There's that.
They have meaning. Sure I'll admit, and Beth Pheonix certainly came across as a powerful character. But the fact of the matter is that her meaning is very little. Her worth became so much more to fans when embroiled in a comedy situation with Santino. Being a dominant diva still didnt give her much attraction to a common fan, or at least I don't believe so.
Just to point out how skewed the logic was. I could have mentioned kittens or something, but it didnt have the impact.
It was a typo obviously. The net worth of the Diva's division is next to nothing, and even at its highest level, it can only go so far. The potential is capped by prejudices and the fact that womens wrestling, although at times semi-interesting, is often a joke in the WWE. If they're never going to give it the time of day to become the mediocre division it could be, why continue it?
Just because they can wrestle does not mean that it makes an entire division worthwhile of having, and spending time on each week. Otherwise shelton Benjamin would actually be getting somewhere.
I certainly didnt cry over it. But it was such a mean gesture.
I would use those diving lessons he has to invest it into a better tag team division.
I'm not saying you have to drop your standards. Are men faster and stronger in the ring? Yeah, and that's about it. Watch a good Nattie Neidhart match. She's more technically sound than half of the wrestlers on the roster. I don't drop my standards... It's fucking wrestling. I look at a Hornswoggle match the same as a Cena match... Is it entertaining? And the vast majority of fans find women's wrestling enjoyable, more so than you. See how many people you've already had to debate? And that's a small pool of fans.
Always complaints? Who's complaining? I think you should be more worried about the main events and the promos leading up the main events, as opposed to five minutes for a Diva's match. Therein lies your problem, brother. Women don't take up any more time than anyone else. And that time they do use, what's it going to be used for? Probably more comedy skits, and such.
I can show you people who's favorite wrestlers are women, and in that same vein, I'd like to see people that say they turn off the TV when women come on. Vince doesn't have to worry about that, because he knows you'll sit through it and watch it.
Well, the fact you're even comparing the two is a bit of a flaw. Personally, I'd point out that the Ziggler match wasn't even close in comparison to the Diva's match. That's just me. And question, did you still watch that Diva's match?
Well, quite frankly, No shit. That's the way it's always going to be. But I'm not trying to say their matches are better. All I'm saying is that they belong there as much as men.
Yeah, Vince has tried that. Twice. And each time, he found that he'd go back to the Women's division. Besides, who are you getting for that Cruiserweight Division? TBK? Oh, and consider this dismaying observation... If you're going to create that in place of Diva's, you're going to have to fill up two brands.
Simply put, TNA has Cruiserweights, yet people clamor for their knockout Division. Which proves that women have a place in the ring.
Here, we disagree. She had a dominant reign to go with that. And she doesn't even have half the charisma of Chyna. Neither here nor there. You seem to miss my point that she does work good matches. And as long as women work good matches, they prove to have a spot in the ring.
Still, you've yet to answer what harm it does to see them in the ring.
Again, you just noted it can be interesting. Why have it? Well, because it can be interesting. Is it booked poorly? Yes, and no one's going to treat it as importantly as the men's division. But again, as long as it garners interest, why not have it.
I knew it! I knew you were going to fucking say Shelton Benjamin! I jsut knew it, damn it.
Look, Shelton's on ECW right now, and he has no true competition for "TV Time", other than The Bella Twins. The fact is, the women are more entertaining to some people than Shelton. To me, I enjoy women's matches over Shelton.
Boobs > Racist Shelton stereotyping Asians. You should've used someone else. Shelton had a chance with TV time. And he blew it. Now, he's not working against "competition" in the Divas, yet he struggles to get on TV.
Eh, he's got no malice, though. He just likes the red rep. Again, not so much mean as he is trigger happy.
So wait, you argue that a women's division should be gone, but that a tag team division, which has been booked just as poorly, just needs to be "redone"
.... Right....
Mantaur Rodeo Clown
X-Pac Rules
Would you say that the people debating with me are common fans? Hella no. How many casual fans actually take time to look at Nattie Neidharts wrestling resume? How many care if she's more technically sound? How many care that they can go for a piss during one of her matches vs Eve Torres. I will say though, she is a great wrestler. But I care about her abilities in the ring. I don't think half of the people in the crowd did.
Why not a mens match? Why is that so bad? The promos leading up to the main events have always been there, the pre match interviews etc. So why not showcase that Primo and Carlito feud suring that extra 5 minutes? A Carlito's Cabana perhaps?
I have changed the channel sporadically when womens matches come on. I mean Kelly Kelly and Mickie James vs Rosa Mendes and Alicia Fox isnt that interesting to me I'm afraid.
Yeah. It was good. Im a Ziggler mark. Have we met? Why is comparing the two a flaw just asking? If i dont have to drop my standards, shouldnt it be perfectly ok to compare any mens match to a womens match? Granted theyre getting the same length of time etc.
Why? Because it's politically correct? If you can't attract a casual fan, and are just there to entice a small niche of fans, what harm will it do taking them away and putting in a mens feud? It's not like fans of the Women division will turn the tv off. Theyll just sit through it....
I'm not advocating a jump back to the Cruiserweight division. Im just using it as an example to show that it would generate far more interest than the women title. But it suffered from the same problems as the womens title, poor booking. But a casual fan will be much more interested in a Cruiserweight title match or a TV title match or a Million Dollar championsip match than a Women's title match. It's true. It's Damn true.
People clamour for the X-Division just as much as the Knockouts division. I think that people enjoy the Knockouts so much more due to the fact that WWE's division is so terrible. I can't say I enjoy Angelina Love matches, but that personal bias.
I never disputed the talents of Beth Pheonix nor her ability to work good matches. What I do think is that for the majority of fans, this ability means nothing. Yes yes, I know, the Benjamin argument, I know, hate me for it but it's true. If you can't interest a casual fan, which seems pretty evident from dead crowds during matches, then of what use are you to than to appease the IWC?
Well, besides using up that TV and PPV time, nothing. What harm does it do to have Hornswoggle in the ring? To have Layla El do a dance segment in the ring? Nothing. But that shouldn't give it any more merits.
Bingo! No one is going to treat it as importantly as the men's division. Ever. it'll always be second fiddle. it's encouraging the WWE to do a piss poor job at booking, and I'm sick of having to deal with it. As you said, it'll never improve, so lets use it for something better.
Yes yes, Mantaur used the stereotypical Shelton argument. You use whoever you damn well please. Charlie Haas can wrestle very well. Doesn't translate to anything besides jobbing.
Well thats fine by me. Im green rep galore for other people.
The peak of the tag team division, in which ever period you want to look at it, Hart Foundation Vs. The Rockers or E+C vs Hardy Boyz vs Dudley Boys was always more successful than the peak of the womens division.
Damn right.
You're right, and this is sad, but it's true... You know what those casual fans enjoy?
Yes, they enjoy the aesthetics of the match. They enjoy the match because the women look good. That's what casual fans look for in their Diva's match. And damned if you can't argue that's a problem. And those common fans will appreciate that far more than they ever, ever appreciated a fucking Shelton, or a Chavo, or a TBK match.
Because, and I assure you, you put that Cabana together, and I promise you, people will still use that point as the bathroom break.
And I find it more interesting that Carlito and Primo match. And the common fans? They enjoy it for... Well, another reason, quite frankly. And as long as fans enjoy that about the women, Vince is going to throw them out there.
Dude, nothing personal, but you haven't done much to set yourself apart from any other poster on here. I can't tell who you mark out for by your posts. You're getting there, but you're not nearly that big a name yet. The flaw, again, is placing those two actually within a realm of comparison. Otherwise, the fact that you admit to watching the match means you had to care more for what you were watching than you let on.
Well, some people sit through it because they like how the women look. Just the way it is. And you can choose to not accept it, but that doesn't make you right. One bit.
Another fucking title? You really want another belt? So instead of women, you want another title to dilute the show you're watching? Thanks, but no thanks. Even then, people would still use that as the bathroom break.
I don't see how, but that's you, completely you. Anyway, you just said it yourself, with proper booking, it's enjoyable. And they don't consider them "equals" per se.
And Shelton fucking Benjamin does that better than Beth? Yeah... Sure...
Except that the merit is entertainment. Just like you find in a women's match.
Again, TNA does it, and it's entertaining.
And boring TV. Which is why they have women out there.
I green rep, too. You'll get some soon
Dude, I'm sorry, but that ship has long sailed. There will never be another era like that. Better just take the Tag Team Division as is.
Mantaur Rodeo Clown
X-Pac Rules
Just because they appreciate looking at Kelly Kelly's boobs more than Chavito's goatee, doesn't make the women's matches any less boring to them. As JMT said, 30 seconds is sufficient for it.
Well great, at least Carlito feels like he's being used correctly. instead of 30 seconds of skin and then the rest of boredom.
The "casual" fan that doesnt go to pee will get a great promo exchange.
What about the casual fan thats bored of it? Is that reason to keep it on? Because some horny people like watching Kelly Kelly? I don't think that the 5 people that wish to watch a divas match to perv are anymore important than the 500 people that are bored of the divas matches
Dude, no offense, but you took that the wrong way. I was just joking about the introduction. Im not that self centred to think Im famous.
What? Because I was watching the womens championship match means that I cared so much about it? It's not like I was turning the PPV off and refusing to watch it. I would just prefer to watch something else is all.
Thats it? Thats your justification for it? I think we can sacrifice the people that tolerate it for breasts for something more enjoyable in a wrestling product. Why not just have a dance off instead? That serves the same purpose. Why not use that big boobed girl to manage an up and coming Jack Swagger andgive him some extra heat. What if you got an extreme girl to manage Evan Bourne, give him something besides flips to be successful at.
Then don't use a belt. Have a cabaret show. Have a postive thinking seminar. The fact is that you could make many more productive segments by eliminating the match. Its time going to waste to appease a few fans. Why not extend that time to a bigger audience.
Fine use CM Punk. Use Mike Knox. Use Carlito. Your choice.
But, womens matches arent entertaining to all. Im sure you could find something else that more entertaining to all. Santino is unanimously hilarious. Use him. Have a video package highlighting the history of the next PPV. Have an interview with chris jericho where he calls you a hypocrite. Thats more entertaining.
I'm not ****ing for it. Don't do it if it aint deserved.
And there will never be a truly great womens division in WWE.I've accepted that the tag team division is over. Have you accepted that the divas will never be booked properly enough for anyone to care? Stop the matches and use them for something useful. MVP could use a manager.
Dude, you're completely not giving any leeway to the thought that perhaps people like the matches. And yes, not only is that possible, but it's true. Just because you feel one way, doesn't mean that everyone else in the building does. For every two of you going to the bathroom, there's another thirty staying to watch. Not like you see them wrestling empty arena matches, Mantaur.
If Carlito doesn't feel he's used correctly, that's his own damn fault. He knows what it means to get over. And like it or not, the Divas of the WWE are indeed over. Oh, and Primo, and great promo exchange? I doubt you said that with a serious face...
.... Dude, you really feel the ratio is that off balance? You think that many people are really bored by that? Wow... To see that's an unrealistic number would be giving that "stat" wayyy too much credit.
And for your one, there's about another thousand that will watch it. And what you fail to recognize is that not nearly everyone is thinking like you right now.
Look, you're using real hyperbole to back up a point that is very far in the minority.
I'm not about to use the comparison of a main eventer to a diva's match. However, sure, Mike and Carlito are great. Both of them come off as rather bland, and no one cares about them. Above all else, Vince listen's to his audience. He's not as much interested in the one Mantaur in the crowd... He's more interested in the general crowd reaction. And the general crowd likes Diva's matches.
John Cena promos aren't entertaining to all? You want to fucking replace those? Not everything is entertaining to everyone. Vince knows that, but he still offers the majority of the fans what they want. Because that's fucking good business.
No, you deserve it. Though I feel this argument comes completely from your own ass. I feel as though now you're trying to speak for the entire WWE fan base. And I'd be more than happy to say you sure as Hell do not represent me.
I don't feel that they'll always be poorly booked. You've even confessed that they can be entertaining. At the end of the day, you asked why we have them.
The answer why is because they are entertaining to fans. If they're not entertaining to you... Then tough shit, honestly
The divas division has been going downhill since Lita and Trish Stratus left. Lets face it the WWE doesn't really care for the Diva's division anymore. They only use the divas for eye candy and not for actual matches anymore. I don't even remember the last time the titles were defended. What they really need to do is unify the Diva and Women's titles and have the belt defended on all three brands(basically like the tag team titles).
Deexter Jorgan
Has a Dark Passenger on board...
Before you continue to berate the division MRC i want you to view this match, this was from Sunday Night Heat when Trish Nore Lita where in this picture,now look at how hot the crowd is.
[youtube]vsBODXeBvkk[/youtube]
This isn't about Personal arguements its about The Division itself, no offense mate your making yourself look bad due to the fact that you are repeating your arguements and not putting any evidence aside on why the division should be removed so to speak, you need to get evidence to support your theories otherwise your walking blind.
It isn't but the thing is the division relies on support from the overall creative team which at this point in time is getting none, The Divas are getting next to none build on smackdown, no promo time and basically only a small throw makeup on someones face to build up an ongoing feud its not the way these women should be made to look, and the majority just do what is put in front of them and run with the angle so in the end you end up with a divas match with next to no build being placed on a show that only some people want to watch because they do not care about who they are seeing in front of them.
Your Ziggler fan so obviously you'd say that
Mickey and Michelle are good enough to lead the division at this point in time, but the issue here is that the division itself is not being built up correctly in order for people to care enough about the participants just like the cruisers where misused the divas are in the same boat, the way to make the division better is to hire more skilled women who can make the division work and can actually work a wrestling match women such as
Cheerleader Melissa
[youtube]c-m2HjvPGIU[/youtube]
One of the best Womens Indie Wrestlers out there, she has wrestling ability and can basically run with anyone toe to toe, the best thing about her is that she can adapt to any style and any match type, this women should have been hired years ago but wasn't for some reason or another.
Its not the general feeling, I have yet to see a valid arguement from anyone on why the Divas should go to tell you the truth, but if you want to rock that boat i will say this, provide evidence and backing to your claims, ratings or even showcases and truthfully i have seen none from you or anyone so far, the fact is until the crowd starts chanting boring and this is sh** then i will still say the division can be saved.
It's wrestling anyone with an attention span of a fish will have a hard time watching it, in the end the shows are getting better altogether, matches are becoming more based on skill then they are based on who can get a bigger pop but smacking someone the hardest, if you want wrestling then watch it, if not then take a toilet break everytime these women come on, because IMO they work their asses off and nearly kill themselves for the fans, fans like you who are bitching about them.
What about the mens?, ive seen mens matches look like total stink fests because they just cant work a prime example is Chris Masters, he cant work a match and made himself and MVP look bad, should he be fired on the spot?, no the WWE is all about chances and making certain gimmics work, if they dont then they are thrown back into the indie circuit where they can either make or break.
I can give you five different people who shouldn't be on tv and the Divas arent on that list and if a wrestler complains he isn't getting enough time then truthfully that person is a whiny bitch, there are enough talent who wait to get there brass ring and get the time for elevation to the next level, the WWE has six hours of programming a week i think they can fit everyone into that time fold don't you?
The Womens division is not on deaths door, its struggling and the only way to get it out of the hole its in is to provide more time to it and one hour out of six wouldn't be as bad as you think it is, its on a station which is limited and will provide a product that will be enjoyable yet entertaining at the same time, and the best thing is, if people don't like it they wont watch it simple as.
[youtube]vsBODXeBvkk[/youtube]
This isn't about Personal arguements its about The Division itself, no offense mate your making yourself look bad due to the fact that you are repeating your arguements and not putting any evidence aside on why the division should be removed so to speak, you need to get evidence to support your theories otherwise your walking blind.
It isn't but the thing is the division relies on support from the overall creative team which at this point in time is getting none, The Divas are getting next to none build on smackdown, no promo time and basically only a small throw makeup on someones face to build up an ongoing feud its not the way these women should be made to look, and the majority just do what is put in front of them and run with the angle so in the end you end up with a divas match with next to no build being placed on a show that only some people want to watch because they do not care about who they are seeing in front of them.
Your Ziggler fan so obviously you'd say that
Mickey and Michelle are good enough to lead the division at this point in time, but the issue here is that the division itself is not being built up correctly in order for people to care enough about the participants just like the cruisers where misused the divas are in the same boat, the way to make the division better is to hire more skilled women who can make the division work and can actually work a wrestling match women such as
Cheerleader Melissa
[youtube]c-m2HjvPGIU[/youtube]
One of the best Womens Indie Wrestlers out there, she has wrestling ability and can basically run with anyone toe to toe, the best thing about her is that she can adapt to any style and any match type, this women should have been hired years ago but wasn't for some reason or another.
Its not the general feeling, I have yet to see a valid arguement from anyone on why the Divas should go to tell you the truth, but if you want to rock that boat i will say this, provide evidence and backing to your claims, ratings or even showcases and truthfully i have seen none from you or anyone so far, the fact is until the crowd starts chanting boring and this is sh** then i will still say the division can be saved.
It's wrestling anyone with an attention span of a fish will have a hard time watching it, in the end the shows are getting better altogether, matches are becoming more based on skill then they are based on who can get a bigger pop but smacking someone the hardest, if you want wrestling then watch it, if not then take a toilet break everytime these women come on, because IMO they work their asses off and nearly kill themselves for the fans, fans like you who are bitching about them.
What about the mens?, ive seen mens matches look like total stink fests because they just cant work a prime example is Chris Masters, he cant work a match and made himself and MVP look bad, should he be fired on the spot?, no the WWE is all about chances and making certain gimmics work, if they dont then they are thrown back into the indie circuit where they can either make or break.
I can give you five different people who shouldn't be on tv and the Divas arent on that list and if a wrestler complains he isn't getting enough time then truthfully that person is a whiny bitch, there are enough talent who wait to get there brass ring and get the time for elevation to the next level, the WWE has six hours of programming a week i think they can fit everyone into that time fold don't you?
The Womens division is not on deaths door, its struggling and the only way to get it out of the hole its in is to provide more time to it and one hour out of six wouldn't be as bad as you think it is, its on a station which is limited and will provide a product that will be enjoyable yet entertaining at the same time, and the best thing is, if people don't like it they wont watch it simple as.
secret titan
Death from above
The divas division does need a little help, but no way should it be removed. I think it was a mistake to introduce the new Divas Championship belt. I can see the benefit on having it though. At least with it, you can have a dominate woman be the Women's Champ like Beth Pheonix, and a Diva still be Diva's Champ.
Still, I am glad there are Diva's in the WWE. It gives me a break from watching sweaty men in basically underwear. Unless you like that sort of thing?
Still, I am glad there are Diva's in the WWE. It gives me a break from watching sweaty men in basically underwear. Unless you like that sort of thing?
angry_panda
The best at what he does
Just to start out by saying Cheerleader Melissa is already working at TNA, and has been for some time as Raisha Saeed, and has just started working as Alissa Flash as well.
On to Wwe, honestly, i'm starting to get more interested in the divas. I was a big fan of Wwe leading up to the invasion set up, and used to enjoy the women's stuff (although being a snot nosed teen, i wasn't really bothered about the wrestling), but i was interested in who had the belt, and how the feuds evolved etc. I came back to wrestling 12/18 months or so ago and i hated the divas division, they would come out look pretty, botch moves, cut boring or pointless promos, and be thrown into title matches almost at random.
While I still think the feuds/matches can be a little random, and the promos can be improved, the standard of wrestling does seem to be on the up, and the few promos I've at least prove some of them can do it.
I think if the creative team, allowed the divas more time to cut promo's, and spent more time allowing them spots for one on one matches, I think people would start becoming interested in the divas for more than just the t&a.
On an side note, anyone but me noticed they seem to be giving divas tna style finishers. With Melinas Faith Breaker being similar looking to the Canadian destroyer (while he may have been released, its still very identifiable finisher to any TNA fans), Michelle McCool's Faith Breaker is an identical copy of the Styles Clash. I'm sure I saw someone do a Creed–DT when he was still using it as well, cant remember who though. You guys thinks this is Wwe's way of mocking TNA since they wont acknowledge them on TV?
MARYSEPHOENIX
Dark Match Jobber
No way should the WWE Divas be removed.
WWE is improving their Diva's division. To say they're not, is well, stupid. Not only have the championships been defended more often than not, but we are getting feuds over the titles. (Ex: Maryse/Mickie, Michelle/Melina)
The title matches at NOC were actually really good. While the Divas Championship match was given more time, the Womens Championship match was the better of the two. Michelle and Melina proved they can fight, and Mickie proved she still has what it takes to carry a division. We know the Melina/McCool feud isn't over, and I'm happy about that. Also, on the Raw side, it looks like we are getting a Mickie/Beth feud or a Mickie/Gail Kim feud. Either way, it's gonna be awesome.
My point is that while the diva's division isn't the top matter in WWE, they are slowly making an effort to rebuild. I'm excited for its future, and you should be too.
WWE is improving their Diva's division. To say they're not, is well, stupid. Not only have the championships been defended more often than not, but we are getting feuds over the titles. (Ex: Maryse/Mickie, Michelle/Melina)
The title matches at NOC were actually really good. While the Divas Championship match was given more time, the Womens Championship match was the better of the two. Michelle and Melina proved they can fight, and Mickie proved she still has what it takes to carry a division. We know the Melina/McCool feud isn't over, and I'm happy about that. Also, on the Raw side, it looks like we are getting a Mickie/Beth feud or a Mickie/Gail Kim feud. Either way, it's gonna be awesome.
My point is that while the diva's division isn't the top matter in WWE, they are slowly making an effort to rebuild. I'm excited for its future, and you should be too.
psykohurricane
Championship Contender
You got a point here but you should really start reading all the posts on this thread because there'S alot more peoples that got good arguments about keeping the divas division then you say there are.
What are you really kidding me? Melina put on mediocre match, have you seen Melina wrestles in the last 2 years. The woman as put on more then her share of great matches in the woman's division. Here feud with Beth Phoenix last year was one of the best feud that the WWE diva's division had in a long time. She made Candice Michelle look like a great wrestler and even made Ashley look like she deserved to be a wrestler and to answer you question, yes there job are essential to the WWE product. Look at it the way you want but the diva'S are great promotional tool for the WWE. Especially with the pg product there trying to put on right now. When a little boys watch the WWE product, he wants to be Jeff Hardy or John Cena. When a little girl is watching wrestling she probably will look up the the WWE Divas as role models. The point is that the diva'S are strong role models for every little girl watching wrestling and you got to see the bigger picture then just thinking of the IWC who watch WWE programming. There are more people that don'T necessarily write on wrestling boards that like the WWE Divas.
First of all, It'S Mysterio not Mastrio and secondly i got to agree with you, Ziggler and Mysyerio was a better match then McCool and Melina but McCool and Melina had a better match then Orton/Cena And HHH and that'S saying something.
The reason they don't have a strong diva to lead the division is because they don'T care about the division. Has much as a hate Mickie James, i got to say that she one of the most popular diva on Raw. So she if they wanted to they could have her be in the leader role of raw division, They Also got Kelly Kelly who as become one of the most improved Diva on the entire roster and is also the most popular diva on RAw as for the heel side, you got Beth Phoenix and MAryse when she comes back from her injury to carry the woman's division. On Smackdown you got Melina and Michelle McCool as the leaders of that division. Eve is becoming quite good and is starting to get a fanbase and Natalya as part of the hart dynasty is becoming on of the most hated diva on the roster. The point i'm making is that maybe on this board, but the next time you go to a live event, listen to the crowd react when a diva's match happen and you will heard that you comment is based on what you read on wrestling board because in real life, people do cares about the woman's division.
Like i said before, it's not all about the male audience, to be perfectly honest with you, the male audience doesn't isn'T the biggest part of the wrestling audience anymore. Let me break it down to you like this. The male audience is about 30% same thing goes for the female audience which leave us with 40% of the audience. the last 40% goes to families. More and more kids are watching WWE right now and there opinions matter alot more then the male audience right now. The sad truth is that the WWE is kid oriented right now and alot of them like everything going on in the WWE even Woman'S wrestling. Alot of the female audience like the diva's division and out of the 30% of the male audience, maybe half of it like watching the woman's division. So everybody on this board who hates the diva's division is in the minority because they don'T even make 1% of the total audience who actually like the diva's division. So you have the right to your opinion but the fact is that it's not because people on this board don'T like the divas that everybody watching WWE doesn'T like them.
Mantaur Rodeo Clown
X-Pac Rules
Just to get things cleared up before I respond to this post. I have never once said that the Divas weren't entertaining, but have simply advocated that their time could be used better.I'm not as entertained by some of the fans that are popping up in this thread sure, but I dont hate the divas at all. I can enjoy a womens match no problem. But I DO have a problem with the way it is booked in the WWE. I have maintained since my first post that they could be utilised just as effectively in other areas.
Please do not mistake me for this guy Tenta. I'm not this guy and I really dont want to be seen as that guy. As much as you disagree with me, I don't want to become like....
Anyways onto the long and short of the post. Im very lazy so I may not be able to respond to both Degeneration Deej and psykohurricane tonight. But lets dive into Tenta's post.
Well it's quite evident that we'll never see an empty arena during an event with a divas match. Yes you have your 30 people staying to watch. But are they there enjoying the match or are they there simply waiting for the main event? I dont want to "speak" for everyone in the building, but it seems, at least from general experience and being around friends that are wrestling fans that Divas matches are certainly not as popular as you would have believe. Of course this is a biased view, us all being the same age and mostly male. But I cant exactly base my judgments on your experiences can I? Empathy doesn't come easily to me I'm afraid, although I will admit you bring up some strong points.
In terms of your statement that the divas are indeed over, I'm not sure about that. Not living in the US, live events are often few and far between, but as a general rule, the crowds don't cheer as loud for the Divas as for male superstars, at least to my ears, regardless of whether you're Kofi or Kelly Kelly.
How can you say that the general crowd doesn't like Mike Knox just as much? Or Evan Bourne or Yoshitatsu or any mid card wrestler right now? Because Yoshitatsu hasn't been around for long, and yet at the sound of his music he gets a far bigger general crowd reaction that a lot of the divas. And I refuse to believe it's because he has cool disco music.
I should have attached a poll or something to this thread so we could see both the different camps. Judging from the response, I'd say that I'd be getting my ass kicked in the polls as well.
Please do not mistake me for this guy Tenta. I'm not this guy and I really dont want to be seen as that guy. As much as you disagree with me, I don't want to become like....
Anyways onto the long and short of the post. Im very lazy so I may not be able to respond to both Degeneration Deej and psykohurricane tonight. But lets dive into Tenta's post.
Well it's quite evident that we'll never see an empty arena during an event with a divas match. Yes you have your 30 people staying to watch. But are they there enjoying the match or are they there simply waiting for the main event? I dont want to "speak" for everyone in the building, but it seems, at least from general experience and being around friends that are wrestling fans that Divas matches are certainly not as popular as you would have believe. Of course this is a biased view, us all being the same age and mostly male. But I cant exactly base my judgments on your experiences can I? Empathy doesn't come easily to me I'm afraid, although I will admit you bring up some strong points.
I mean, granted Carlito was a bad example, but there are still superstars that could use anytime given effectively. Forget using any particulars. Do you at least agree that the time from divas matches could be used for something constructive? I mean surely thats something to be agreed on.
In terms of your statement that the divas are indeed over, I'm not sure about that. Not living in the US, live events are often few and far between, but as a general rule, the crowds don't cheer as loud for the Divas as for male superstars, at least to my ears, regardless of whether you're Kofi or Kelly Kelly.
I realise not everyone shares my sentiments. Thats clear and I don't want to be the big know it all that comes off like he knows whats best for the people. If I have come off that way, sorry mate. But you make it sound like I'm the only person in the whole eorld that doesn't support the divas as a division. Is it so radically new to want to replace their matches with something else? I'm not saying fire every women worker on the roster because they can't get the job done.
I don't see how you can possibly say this is the face of me saying no one cares about the divas. How is this any less critical? I care about Mike Knox. I thought he had a great showing in his tag match with Ziggler on Smackdown!
How can you say that the general crowd doesn't like Mike Knox just as much? Or Evan Bourne or Yoshitatsu or any mid card wrestler right now? Because Yoshitatsu hasn't been around for long, and yet at the sound of his music he gets a far bigger general crowd reaction that a lot of the divas. And I refuse to believe it's because he has cool disco music.
I never said that I as speaking for you. But if you put yourself into a casual fan's shoes, would you feel the same way? Would you have all the same opinions if you weren't backed up with general knowledge and weren't concerned with "whats good for the business?". Thats not a rhetorical question. I'm actually wondering if you would feel the same way, because I find it hard to answer that question too.
I didn't ask why we have them. I know why we have divas. To entertain the fans. I mean thats pretty simple. What I asked was, and you can quote my first post, why not remove them? And if you don't believe they will always be poorly booked, when will the trend start to change within the WWE?
I wonder. You say that they're entertaining to fans. Are you currently entertained by the women's product in the WWE? As in, right at this moment, looking at both the title situations, you can't tell me it couldnt be massively revamped and improved upon.The problem is, with little to no hope of a renovation coming, what are we waiting out for?
I should have attached a poll or something to this thread so we could see both the different camps. Judging from the response, I'd say that I'd be getting my ass kicked in the polls as well.
