WWE Region, Chiyoda Subregion, First Round: (1) Hulk Hogan vs. (32) Yokozuna

[Con T.]

So, basically, we're all doing this, just because of the novelty of having a one seed lose in the first round, aren't we?

Cool.

Look, let's not pretend we're doing anything else. Hogan is the better wrestler. Hogan is the more accomplished wrestler. Hogan is the bigger draw.

But because Yoko beat Hogan in 93, we're really going to do this? Ok. Cool. When I point out Harley Race's run with the WWE in the late 80s, I expect that to be a sound argument as to why he should lose to someone lesser than him. Because that's essentially what we're doing to Hogan.

Flair lost to Triple H in 2006, so Triple H should go over Flair.
Randy Savage lost to DDP in 1997, so DDP should go over Savage.
Ricky Steamboat lost to William Regal in 1994, so Regal should go over Steamboat.
Kerry Von Erich beat Curt Hennig in 1990, so Von Erich should go over Hennig (oh wait, that matchup did happen in this tournament, and Hennig still went over, because stupidity.)

You see how stupid it sounds?

It's ok if you're doing this just to see the upset. Cool. But be honest about it. Don't vote Yoko and pretend you're being the smartest person in the room. You're not; you're being stupid as fuck.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Did you read my post?

First off, I'm not buying into the whole "Home Court Advantage" argument, but if others want to vote for Yokozuna because the match is in Japan, so be it. But I thought I had made very clear why I felt Yokozuna should win, NOT just why Hogan should lose.

1. Yokozuna was not only one of the largest Superheavyweights ever to grace the squared circle, but he was also one of the most agile. Guys like Vader, Bigelow, and DeMott may have transcended the way we think of 325+lb guys and agility with moonsaults and top rope headbutt dives and such, but Yokozuna at his best was between 505 - 550 lbs, and moved with EASE. While many SHW's (Typhoon / Tenta / Awesome Kongs / Haystacks / Monsoon / late career Andre) could only do the menacing looking power moves, Yokozuna put guys lights out with lightning quick back thrust kicks and belly to belly suplexes and stopped momentum DEAD in its tracks.

2. Yokozuna is one of only three men I recall kicking out of a babyface Hogan's leg drop - the others being Sid Justice at Wrestlemania 8 (which he had to do because Papa Shango missed his cue) and Big Van Vader (who kicked out at a count of 1!) This was before the attitude era where kicking out of finishers in big matches was more commonplace. In the meantime, I do not believe Hogan was ever hit by a Banzai drop in a match, and for the life of me I cannot recall ANYONE kicking out of that. Only reason Bret Hart beat Yoko at Mania 10 was because Yokozuna fell off the middle rope.

3. Before anyone could even THINK of defeating the 1993 Royal Rumble winner, first they needed to have a competition for someone to knock him off his feet. It took weeks - FINALLY, Hacksaw Jim Duggan did it. Crowd went APE SHIT for nothing other than a knockdown. Think about that. Yokozuna was such an imposing figure that a live crowd thought it was a massive victory just to see the man KNOCKED DOWN. Then, after Hogan failed to slam the big man, they sold out the Intrepid for a 4th of July Body Slam Challenge when Lex Luger finally managed to slam the man. A BODY SLAM. There are only 3 all-time great bodyslams - Andre slamming Big John Studd, Hogan slamming Andre, and Luger slamming Yokozuna. Luger didn't defeat or pin Yokozuna, mind you - he simply managed to pick him up and put him down.

4. Yokozuna had the tutelage of not one, but two all time great managers in Jim Cornette and Mr. Fuji. Potential for outside interference aside, those were two brilliant wrestling minds who undoubtedly had Yokozuna prepared for every match, day-in, day-out. It showed in how dominant Yokozuna was in 1993-94.

I read them all. Funny you assume I was only talking to you though?

Thanks for the history lesson though. I'm actually being as serious as you were writing it. I'd forgotten about the angle where Duggan finally took the monster off of his feet. It's such a simple, effective older angle isn't it?

The funny thing about that angle though... is the purpose behind it is to build up the monster in order to put over the baby in the end. Just like I said how they'd build up the monster (Yoko) to put over the baby (Hogan) in the end.

You're impressed that Luger slammed him I see... and that Hogan didn't. Only three all time great bodyslams? Fine... although I was always a fan of Harley scoop slamming Andre myself, I'll give you that. But you do realize why Hogan didn't slam Yoko right? Because he was on his way out, and they didn't want him to. Seriously, that's it. Had Hogan not been on his way out, not only does Yoko not win, but the highlight of that match would have been Hogan slamming him... just like it was for every single monster superheavyweight that he fought. Honestly they had a template for this. I am amazed that apparently so few people actually noticed it.

Please read Limerick Steiner's post and actually think about it. Vote Yoko if you insist on having a #1 go out in the first round. Just please don't pretend it's nothing more than that.

Now excuse me while I go put Chico Santana over the Rock.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

So, basically, we're all doing this, just because of the novelty of having a one seed lose in the first round, aren't we?

Cool.

Look, let's not pretend we're doing anything else. Hogan is the better wrestler. Hogan is the more accomplished wrestler. Hogan is the bigger draw.

But because Yoko beat Hogan in 93, we're really going to do this? Ok. Cool. When I point out Harley Race's run with the WWE in the late 80s, I expect that to be a sound argument as to why he should lose to someone lesser than him. Because that's essentially what we're doing to Hogan.

Flair lost to Triple H in 2006, so Triple H should go over Flair.
Randy Savage lost to DDP in 1997, so DDP should go over Savage.
Ricky Steamboat lost to William Regal in 1994, so Regal should go over Steamboat.
Kerry Von Erich beat Curt Hennig in 1990, so Von Erich should go over Hennig (oh wait, that matchup did happen in this tournament, and Hennig still went over, because stupidity.)

You see how stupid it sounds?

It's ok if you're doing this just to see the upset. Cool. But be honest about it. Don't vote Yoko and pretend you're being the smartest person in the room. You're not; you're being stupid as fuck.

I'm the smartest guy in most rooms. And the "condescending asshole" is MY gimmick, so kindly step off.

Your comparisons are so far out of whack it's embarrassing for you. It's quite simple - these two men had two major matches - Wrestlemania 9, which took place 128 seconds after Yokozuna defeated Bret Hart and Hogan showed up and screwed the champ (and that pissant Jack Tunney of course sided with Hogan, just like he did after the '92 Rumble when he named Hogan the #1 contender over Justice), and the match 3 months later at King of the Ring which Yokozuna dominated and won.

Listen, man, Hogan is awesome. No doubt. But if this were an 8 vs 9 matchup, I'd be in here pushing for the sumo wrestler over the immortal one just as heavily, because I felt that Yokozuna had Hogan's number. He was one of the few Hogan really struggled with, and it essentially ended Hulkamania for a decade as a result.

I'm making this argument because I believe it, not because it's gimmicky.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Such a smark response. If not for the kayfabe argument, why even run the tournament? Or at least, why have more than just 4 people in it? Why run this every year if the penultimate argument, according to you, is "who would be booked to win? Who was the bigger draw? It's sickeningly nihilistic. I cannot stand this response, because what you're saying to people is that enjoying professional wrestling for what it historically was is sill, and we should look at it from the depressing view of how someone would be booked by management.

And in other news, "for reasons that should not be explained!?" This is a discussion forum. THE POINT OF THE ENTIRE DAMN TOURNAMENT IS TO EXPLAIN IT!!!

Why don't you just go kick a kitten and tell an 8 year old that he's adopted or that Santa isn't real while you're at it, you black hole from which no fun can escape?

I hope Yokozuna sits on your face. After he pins Hulk Hogan and kicks his crippled ass to WCW for 9 years.

Even if you split the overall carreer Vs kayfabe argument (as everyone should) you still have a decent argument for Yokozuna.

Yokozuna was EASILY the backbone of the WWE in 1993 and early 94, which was ALSO the first year of Monday Night Raw. He was the last of the great truly feared monster heels.

 

[Shadowmancer]

I voted for Yokozuna, because Hulk Hogan can't climb a ladder.

Yes that is completely irrelevant to this match but it is the only chance I will get to use this excuse because Yokozuna is the person to win this, he was heavier than Andre and we all know how much that looked like it fucked up Hogan's back. Yoko is in Japan where he is billed from and that is going to play a factor.

 

[Tastycles]

Folks, Tastycles has had an irrational hatred of those he perceives as "fat" for years. He's the quintessential bully. Despite professional wrestling being a businesses long dominated by those with a less-than-flattering BMI Index, Tastycles has made it his personal crusade in life to eviscerate everything flab.

No, Vader is shit, other fatties are fine. I'll vote Yokozuna to prove it #BeAStar.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I miss Sly, he'd be going apocalyptic on all yo asses at Hulk potentially going out in the first round!

Why is everyone speaking about Japan being a plus here? Hogan was immensely better as a heel than Yoko as a face. If Hogan was booed and Yoko cheered, Hogan would win.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Yes, it is.

No it isn't.

In Yoko's prime, he made a career out of defeating top faces, including Hogan.

Yes, he beat Hogan, in 1993. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not; that was past Hogan's prime. Yoko wouldn't have defeated a 1985-1989 Hogan.

Yoko beat Hogan in a match where both men had months of notice. Hogan could only beat Yoko after Yoko had just wrestled Bret Hart. That's the 1993 equivalent of a MITB cash-in.

I'll give you that, however, I'm still saying that Hogan would have beaten Yoko if they faced each other while Hogan was in his prime.

Yes there is. Pinfall. Same way Hogan lost to Yokozuna at King of the Ring.

Through some controversy and heelish antics. Still, Hogan wasn't in his prime.

Prepare to crack up, then.

I enjoy a good laugh

No, don't. That would be silly and illogical. Vote for Yokozuna.

It wouldn't be silly and illogical to vote for Hogan. Look, if you've ever read any of my posts you'll know that I am far from a Hulkamaniac, however, prime Hogan routinely defeated monster heels such as Yoko. I don't see this one going any different.

You're better than this, Phenom.

Aren't you?

Thank you. I am very good. I don't see how what I said could warrant me needing to be better.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Good Lord almighty this is absurd!

Hogan going out in the first round is a fucking travesty. Didn't he win this shindig last year?

Jesus Christ, Jesus fuckin Christ...

 

[klunderbunker]

Good Lord almighty this is absurd!

Hogan going out in the first round is a fucking travesty. Didn't he win this shindig last year?

Jesus Christ, Jesus fuckin Christ...

Not absurd. Absurd would be him losing 39-2 to Ray Rougeau. This is Hogan potentially (remember voting is only 1/3 over) to a Hall of Famer, two time WWF World Champion and a man that beat Hogan for the title after tossing Hogan away like he weight 189lbs after the big leg. It's not like Hogan had him dead to rites and them the camera went off. Hogan was in trouble and it was no guarantee he would have won. Not to mention the time Hogan pinned him, Yokozuna had salt thrown in his eyes. The one time Hogan did pin him it wasn't even clean.

I haven't made up my mind yet, but Hogan losing is certainly not absurd. An upset yes but not absurd.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Call me a monster if you will, you wouldn't be the first, but it would just be much more interesting if a number one seed went out in the first round - particularly if that number one seed is Hulk Hogan.

This is like if Austin came up against that one bloke who he lost to but isn't thought all that fondly of in his own right. Because I can't be arsed to think of an actual analogy, let's say Rikishi. Rikishi.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Not absurd. Absurd would be him losing 39-2 to Ray Rougeau. This is Hogan potentially (remember voting is only 1/3 over) to a Hall of Famer, two time WWF World Champion and a man that beat Hogan for the title after tossing Hogan away like he weight 189lbs after the big leg. It's not like Hogan had him dead to rites and them the camera went off. Hogan was in trouble and it was no guarantee he would have won. Not to mention the time Hogan pinned him, Yokozuna had salt thrown in his eyes. The one time Hogan did pin him it wasn't even clean.

I haven't made up my mind yet, but Hogan losing is certainly not absurd. An upset yes but not absurd.

We always come up here and talk about primes right. Hogan had two primes, Hulk Hogan and Hollywood Hogan. Obviously we consider Hulk Hogan here.

The 80s hogan was fed these monsters on the big shows and won. The Hogan Yoko faced was being phased out. Actually, he dropped the title to Yoko because they were in talks of Hogan then coming back and beating Yoko. never happened.

In a one off match like this, why would Hulk Hogan lose to his fodder?

 

[klunderbunker]

We always come up here and talk about primes right. Hogan had two primes, Hulk Hogan and Hollywood Hogan. Obviously we consider Hulk Hogan here.

The 80s hogan was fed these monsters on the big shows and won. The Hogan Yoko faced was being phased out. Actually, he dropped the title to Yoko because they were in talks of Hogan then coming back and beating Yoko. never happened.

In a one off match like this, why would Hulk Hogan lose to his fodder?

Well for one thing Yokozuna was a different kind of monster. Bigger, stronger, far more agile. Of all those monsters Hogan beat, almost none of them won the World Title and, depending on what you consider Yokozuna's prime, none of them weighed as much as he did. Hogan in his prime never had to face anyone like Yokozuna. Hogan in his prime was fighting a group of guys who barely moved. This isn't the same as those matches because none of those people ever had Yokozuna's success.

Looking to modern times: Brock Lesnar beat the Undertaker when Undertaker was old and banged up. That doesn't mean it's not the biggest shock of all time and Lesnar's biggest moment ever. Just because Yokozuna beat Hogan when he wasn't at his best doesn't mean it's not a huge win.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Well for one thing Yokozuna was a different kind of monster. Bigger, stronger, far more agile. Of all those monsters Hogan beat, almost none of them won the World Title and, depending on what you consider Yokozuna's prime, none of them weighed as much as he did. Hogan in his prime never had to face anyone like Yokozuna. Hogan in his prime was fighting a group of guys who barely moved. This isn't the same as those matches because none of those people ever had Yokozuna's success.

Looking to modern times: Brock Lesnar beat the Undertaker when Undertaker was old and banged up. That doesn't mean it's not the biggest shock of all time and Lesnar's biggest moment ever. Just because Yokozuna beat Hogan when he wasn't at his best doesn't mean it's not a huge win.

Well with the barely moved remark, Bundy frowns.

We can't really use the Streak here because it was a draw, just the streak was a draw at Mania. Hogan was slowly being put in the back burner while younger stars like Luger and Diesel were given the nod by the company.

Personally, the agility, strength really doesn't come into account because Hogan had an extremely good never lost clean percentage. Yoko was good, very very good but he would fall prey to Hulkamania because thats what Hulkamania was built on. Overcoming Bundy with broken ribs, lifting Andre etc. There was this style of booking that pegged Hogan in a corner only for him to rise to the occasion bringing to the fore that almost cartoony superhuman aspect that the company had broadcasted of him.