WWE Region, Third Round, Ultimate Submission: (4) El Santo vs. (5) Mick Foley

[Tastycles]

This is a third round match in the WWE Region. It is an Ultimate Submission match. It will be held at Madison Square Garden, New York, New York.

Rules: The Winner is the person who has the most submissions in a 30 minute time limit.

#4. El Santo

Vs.

#5. Mick Foley

​

This match takes place one week after round 2.

Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Peoples_Champ]

I'm not sure about El Santo's submission history, and his wikipedia page is notorious short on details. But we're all aware of Mr. Socko and the Mandible Claw. Mankind's ability to put opponents away with the Mandible Claw was legendary and probably made him the best "submission specialist" in the late 90s WWE after Bret Hart.

I'm leaning heavily towards Foley unless someone con convince me otherwise that El Santo would have own a submission match.

 

[Big Sexy]

I'm not sure about El Santo's submission history, and his wikipedia page is notorious short on details. But we're all aware of Mr. Socko and the Mandible Claw. Mankind's ability to put opponents away with the Mandible Claw was legendary and probably made him the best "submission specialist" in the late 90s WWE after Bret Hart.

I'm leaning heavily towards Foley unless someone con convince me otherwise that El Santo would have own a submission match.

One of El Santo's finishing moves was the camel clutch so he matches Foley in that regard. Santo was also a Mexican legend. The guy has had TV shows, movies, statues erected of him. Foley is great but Santo was basically the Mexican Hulk Hogan. Even in the WWE region Santo should win this.

 

[DWFJT]

In the WWE region in in america Foley will get more crowd support. That should push him to do crazy things and probably not tap. The mandible claw can put the best away. i'm going foley here

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

Apart from the Mandible Claw, did Mick Foley have a single submission move in his arsenal? Yeah, the Claw was good and put plenty of big names down, so Foley would surely get a couple of points in this match using it, but is that enough?

I admit to knowing little about El Santo, other than that he is one of the biggest names in Mexican wrestling history and that he also had a submission finisher in the Camel Clutch, which you would assume would also get him a couple of tap outs over the course of this match.

I await someone to persuade me either way, as I am unsure who to vote for right now. My heart says Foley, but my head is saying I can't imagine him in an ultimate submission match....

 

[klunderbunker]

It's Mick Foley. Did he EVER submit? This is the guy that was thrown off a cell, through a cell, dropped onto tacks, and kept going as well as doing a run-in later on in the night. Santo is a legend and has a submission hold in his arsenal, but this is like facing Undertaker in a last man standing match: it's Foley's perfect match and there's almost no way you can beat him in a match like this save for cheating like Rock did. This is Foley's.

 

[Shotaro]

It's Mick Foley. Did he EVER submit? This is the guy that was thrown off a cell, through a cell, dropped onto tacks, and kept going as well as doing a run-in later on in the night. Santo is a legend and has a submission hold in his arsenal, but this is like facing Undertaker in a last man standing match: it's Foley's perfect match and there's almost no way you can beat him in a match like this save for cheating like Rock did. This is Foley's.

To my knowledge he tapped ONCE to Terry Funk in Japan (and even that I'm not sure about) He's lost two I quit matches (one where the answer was taped and the other to protect Melina from getting hit with a barb wire bat)

Foley would quite simply not give up, it would need to be a choice between dying or tapping and even then I'm not sure he would quit.

While I know little about El Santo, given Foley's history and the nature of the match, especially in the WWE region, Foley is the only logical choice.

 

[Big Sexy]

Foley may not have ever given up but can any of you prove to me that El Santo has? Like I said, he was basically the Mexican Hulk Hogan and Hogan as a face in his prime surely never gave up. Besides, Foley doesn't have to tap out. All Santo has to do is get him to pass out like Steve Austin at Survivor Series 97. Foley himself has passed out in a submission hold in the past. In a match against Ken Shamrock he was stuck in an ankle lock and gave himself the mandible claw so he'd pass out.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Foley may not have ever given up but can any of you prove to me that El Santo has? Foley himself has passed out in a submission hold in the past. In a match against Ken Shamrock he was stuck in an ankle lock and gave himself the mandible claw so he'd pass out.

If I wanted to, yea probably.

What I CAN show you is a match were Mick Foley was nearly legitimately killed, and continued to wrestle. Ah, but you know, El Santo is fucking awesome and all that, ao surely Foley will tap out to him.

I dont undertsand the second part...So you acknowledge that the Mandible claw can cause someone who took the punishment I mentioned above to pass out, but it would not cause El Santo to pass out? Is he not human? Does he not posses the physical capability to pass out? I assure you he does.

Not to mention, the mandible claw has many, many times rendered one of the mos tunstoppable, indestructable forces in history, the Undertaker, prone and unconcious numerous times.

Mick Foley FLEW OFF THE TOP OF A CELL WILLINGLY...He would not tap out to the fucking Camel Clutch. Get real.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

All El Santo has to do is find a mask that covers his mouth hole and the Mandible Claw is ineffective. Also Foley tapped out to a late 50's Ric Flair so its not like Foley won't tap.

The match itself better suits El Santo than Foley by far. I'm also gonna say El Santo didn't lose very much in his career and was a mainstream star in Mexico, he was definitely the Mexican Hulk Hogan by far. I see Foley doing the job for El Santo.

El Santo wins this one. The match better suits him, bigger star than Foley and has a better win/loss record than Foley.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

All El Santo has to do is find a mask that covers his mouth hole and the Mandible Claw is ineffective. Also Foley tapped out to a late 50's Ric Flair so its not like Foley won't tap.

The match itself better suits El Santo than Foley by far. I'm also gonna say El Santo didn't lose very much in his career and was a mainstream star in Mexico, he was definitely the Mexican Hulk Hogan by far. I see Foley doing the job for El Santo.

El Santo wins this one. The match better suits him, bigger star than Foley and has a better win/loss record than Foley.

This is with both guys in their prime. IE, "Mankind" not Mick Foley. With this in mind, see my above post.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

This is with both guys in their prime. IE, "Mankind" not Mick Foley. With this in mind, see my above post.

The mandible claw argument still applies, all you need is a mask with no mouth hole. Besides I don't understand why people didn't just bite Mankind's fingers while they were in there, but I digress.

Because Foley is such a lunatic you know he will put give El Santo a run for his money, no question. I still think the match itself better suits El Santo. I'm also gonna say its just as unlikely for El Santo to tap out as it is Foley, its very unlike both guys to tap out.

Also because its an Ultimate submission and El Santo was in better in ring shape the longer the match goes the longer it favors El Santo. Not saying Foley was in bad in ring shape, I just feel El Santo was in better shape. If it was a regular submission match I would probably take Foley but Ultimate Submission I would go with El Santo.

 

[shattered dreams]

Foley tapped early in the beginning of his career and then at the end of it to Angle. Similar logic has been deemed sufficient by Gelgarin that someone would tap in the Andre match of this type. MSG in WWE is a nice draw for Foley here. Foley usually finds a way to lose these matches without actually tapping. That is the most likely outcome to me here. I also have to give credit to the find a mask that blocks your mouth theory. Has Foley ever actually got someone above the midcard to tap?

 

[Big Sexy]

What I CAN show you is a match were Mick Foley was nearly legitimately killed, and continued to wrestle. Ah, but you know, El Santo is fucking awesome and all that, ao surely Foley will tap out to him.

I never once said Foley would tap.

I dont undertsand the second part...So you acknowledge that the Mandible claw can cause someone who took the punishment I mentioned above to pass out, but it would not cause El Santo to pass out? Is he not human? Does he not posses the physical capability to pass out? I assure you he does.

Putting more words in my mouth. I didn't say the mandible claw couldn't get him to pass out, I'm just saying it wouldn't happen. El Santo was the Mexican Hulk Hogan. How many times did Hogan pass out or give up during his prime? I think it's more plausible for Foley to pass out because of a submission maneuver and the reason I think that is because I've seen it happen. If Foley intentionally made himself pass out because of Ken Shamrock's ankle lock then it is certainly plausible that he does it because of Santo's submission finisher.

Not to mention, the mandible claw has many, many times rendered one of the mos tunstoppable, indestructable forces in history, the Undertaker, prone and unconcious numerous times.

It's too bad he isn't facing the Undertaker I guess.

Mick Foley FLEW OFF THE TOP OF A CELL WILLINGLY...He would not tap out to the fucking Camel Clutch. Get real.

Again I never said he would tap out, I said he would pass out. As we saw at Mania 13, passing out is just as good as tapping out.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

El Santo was the Mexican Hulk Hogan. How many times did Hogan pass out or give up during his prime? .



It's too bad he isn't facing the Undertaker I guess.

I suppose then it is also too bad that this match does not take place in mexico, nor is El Santo hulk hogan.

 

[D-Man]

If Mankind was shot, stabbed, and hung, he would neither die nor submit. I don't care how much of a legend El Santo was/is, he couldn't make Foley say those words. I don't care what the arguments are... it just wouldn't fucking happen.

Mick Foley. Next?

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

By definition, you only amount falls in this via submissions therefore rules are out the window. Throw in Mankind's affinity for pain, that he physically dwarfs El Santo (7 inches and 70 pounds), that this match is in New York as opposed to Mexico and I believe that 'the Saint's' legacy isn't enough to get him through here.

Being a Mexican institution isn't going to help you when you have a barbed wire wrapped sock down your gullet

 

[Big Sexy]

And once again, he doesn't have to say any words. Passing out will do just fine and that is something that he has done in the past and it was in his prime as Mankind. If Ken Shamrock can defeat him that way then I'm sure El Santo can.

 

[X]

I voted for Foley here simply because I expected this to be a total landslide in favor of Santo, but no, he's in the lead and quite handily right now to my shock. I almost want to argue for Santo now because on paper this is a match he'd win seven days a week and twice on Sunday, as he owns huge wins over some of the biggest international names of all time and Foley has the (somewhat unfair) aura of being a jobber-to-the-stars despite his great workrate, promo work, and huge contributions to the business (not to mention being the single best bump-taker probably ever). My vote remains (obviously) with Foley though, simply because I honestly can't think of many other men who have given more physically and mentally to the business than Foley has. Santo, as huge a star as he was, was also a lazy worker and a product of his time. Really you could make a good case for either man here though.

 

[nightmare]

If Foley intentionally made himself pass out because of Ken Shamrock's ankle lock then it is certainly plausible that he does it because of Santo's submission finisher.

Intentionally pass out? So he just wanted to take a nap? When you pass out from pain, its not necessarily intentional. One doesnt say, 'well I guess I'll pass out now.'. It is because you cant take the pain and lose consciousness. Foley had shit knees and ankles, its alot different of a move than the Clutch. Targets different parts. Foley is damn near indestructable in the upper body region. See exactly what Norcal said if you need a reminder. Plus the man takes shots to the head with a chair that would probably kill other men. You remember what Rock did at RR? Handcuffed, Foley took repeated shots to the head. Full on shots that were disturbing to watch. He can handle a fn camel clutch.




Foley wins because he could take extreme punishment worse than an ultimate sumbission match would allow. It would be close but Foley could very easily use any violent move he used in his old days to make Santo tap or pass out. You honestly think Foley doesnt know how to put on a choke, sleeper, camel clutch or the figure four? Santo would have a hard time getting Foley to tap, but Foley could keep beating on Santo till he passed out or was quite groggy enough to succumb to the Mandible Claw or any number of other submissions.

 

[Big Sexy]

Intentionally pass out? So he just wanted to take a nap? When you pass out from pain, its not necessarily intentional. One doesnt say, 'well I guess I'll pass out now.'. It is because you cant take the pain and lose consciousness. Foley had shit knees and ankles, its alot different of a move than the Clutch. Targets different parts. Foley is damn near indestructable in the upper body region. See exactly what Norcal said if you need a reminder. Plus the man takes shots to the head with a chair that would probably kill other men. You remember what Rock did at RR? Handcuffed, Foley took repeated shots to the head. Full on shots that were disturbing to watch. He can handle a fn camel clutch.

Have you ever seen the match? Foley gave himself the mandible claw while he was in the ankle lock because he was in too much pain, so yes he did intentionally make himself pass out. The camel clutch is also a very painful submission hold. Just ask Hulk Hogan. Sgt. Slaughter almost got him to pass out from the hold at Mania 7. The difference in this match is that Santo > Slaughter and Foley < Hogan.

 

[nightmare]

Your opinion is obviously flawed because Foley is and will be moving on. Hell, have you ever seen Santo wrestle? I bet you havent and are only arguing based on what Wiki told you. Has the name Santo ever crossed your lips till now? Even guys that did remember Santo would say 'Man, Foley is one crazy fool. Santo shouldnt mess with that vato'.


Santo will be remembered for his movies\celebrity status in Mexico and Foley will be remembered as one of the toughest, craziest guys to ever lace up a pair of boots. He willingly flew off the top of a cell and then through the roof of said cell in one match, was blown up in deathmatches and took 11 un-answered chair shots to the brain at the RR. What the hell do you think Santo would do that could be worse? A cross body and a camel fn clutch? Get real. Foley would rip off his mask, put it on his hand and give us the first ever 'Santo' Socko.



The fact that people think Foley hasnt learned a few tricks over the years is absurd. Tell me one reason why Foley couldnt use any one of the hundreds of submission moves in history to make Santo tap..... Hell Foley might just sacrifice a fall just to get out of the move and beat Santo- Cactus Jack style. Im not talking late stage Cactus, Im talking insane deathmatch Cactus Jack who didnt stop till the other guy quit moving.



Your opinion and vote have been voided. Foley moves on and so will I. No further explanation needed.

 

[Big Sexy]

Your opinion is obviously flawed because Foley is and will be moving on. Hell, have you ever seen Santo wrestle? I bet you havent and are only arguing based on what Wiki told you. Has the name Santo ever crossed your lips till now? Even guys that did remember Santo would say 'Man, Foley is one crazy fool. Santo shouldnt mess with that vato'.


Santo will be remembered for his movies\celebrity status in Mexico and Foley will be remembered as one of the toughest, craziest guys to ever lace up a pair of boots. He willingly flew off the top of a cell and then through the roof of said cell in one match, was blown up in deathmatches and took 11 un-answered chair shots to the brain at the RR. What the hell do you think Santo would do that could be worse? A cross body and a camel fn clutch? Get real. Foley would rip off his mask, put it on his hand and give us the first ever 'Santo' Socko.



The fact that people think Foley hasnt learned a few tricks over the years is absurd. Tell me one reason why Foley couldnt use any one of the hundreds of submission moves in history to make Santo tap..... Hell Foley might just sacrifice a fall just to get out of the move and beat Santo- Cactus Jack style. Im not talking late stage Cactus, Im talking insane deathmatch Cactus Jack who didnt stop till the other guy quit moving.



Your opinion and vote have been voided. Foley moves on and so will I. No further explanation needed.

Jesus Christ you suck. Did you make one logical point in your post at all? El Santo isn't some guy you just look up on youtube and watch a couple matches. You actually have to do a little research and when you, you find that the guy was seen as a hero and a legend in Mexico. You act like he is some scrub Foley would walk all over. I know Foley is one tough motherfucker but he has been legitimately beaten by submission before and it came at the hands of a career mid carder in Ken Shamrock.

When you say things like this you just look like a fucking idiot:

Foley would rip off his mask, put it on his hand and give us the first ever 'Santo' Socko.

No one ever removed Santo's mask in the ring. The guy was in tons of mask vs mask matches an never lost one. Foley isn't some indestructible force that you are making him out to be. You know the HIAC against Taker where he got the shit beat out of him and fell of the cell? He lost. The I Quit match vs Rock? He lost. Street Fight vs Triple H? He lost. Foley made a career out of getting the shit beat out of him, making his opponent look great, and then ultimately losing. That is exactly what he would do here.

 

[nightmare]

Ah, yet he is winning. Why is that again?


Foley may have lost his share of matches, but he won quite a few as well. In fact he won many matches that were way more brutal than this match could ever hope to be. Foley is far from indestructable, but the scars he has shows he is pretty close. How many can you name that have done half of what Foley willingly put himself through, yet still keep on coming? What matches did Santo have that were 1\8th as brutal? The factor of being tough\resiliant has some credible weight in this match. Foley has more than Santo. Plus has he even faced anyone as crazy as Foley? Has he ever faced anyone willing to destroy his own body just to win like Foley has? Doubt it.



I did my research on Santo and he was great- in a very different time for the sport. Doesnt change the fact he will be remembered more for what he did outside the ring. He was great between the ropes and that helped his success, but come on, how many people actually see him as a threat or really give a shit about him? This poll proves that. You call me crazy yet you back someone you cant prove as a threat? KB has a pretty sound mind when it comes to wrestling and even he says Foley wins.


This isnt the world of comics or movies. Foley has proven he is one of the toughest ever. So he lost around 4-5 matches by submission in his whole career and yes Shamrock beat him with the ankle lock. Shamrock is\was seen in RL as a threat, something Santo has no claim to. He fought in real life non scripted matches and won. Santo\Foley have not. In the world of wrestling both of them are regarded as legends, but Foley is highly regarded as being able to absorb more punishment.



Again, what the hell do you think Santo could do to Foley that would cause so much damage? He is not as tough nor is the submission specialist you try to imply. The camel clutch is great but I have got out of that in the ring, so Foley could too. Santo might be a 'mexican legend' but there sure are more posts\threads\match info and biography info about his movie career than his wrestling career. For someone so great, there sure arent alot of people who remember or give a crap about him. Hell, I would even take Eddy over Santo in this match, let alone Foley who was better than both of them.

 

[Big Sexy]

You keep repeating the same things so there's no need to quote you. You keep talking about how resilient Foley is and how much punishment he can take, yet I have already shown you that he loses the majority of the matches he takes that punishment in.

You try to point to the fact that Foley is winning this poll as a sign that he is better when in reality it just means more people know who Foley is because this is America and Santo was dead before 95% of the voters were alive. Keep in mind that a couple years ago Hulk Hogan was eliminated in this same tournament because people thought he couldn't climb a ladder.

Santo has beaten some all time great Mexican opponents with his arsenal so his move set is enough to wear Foley down for the camel clutch. At that point he leans back and waits for Foley to pass out.

Read this post from Tastycles on El Santo. Tastycles is one of the few posters I actually respect on here. Dude knows what he is talking about.

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showpost.php?p=1134153&postcount=1