ECW Dallas: Round 2, Match 1: #1 Steve Austin vs #33 El Santo
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justinsayne
Cody Rhodes is an excellant
Now people are going to come in here and say how El Santo is a legend in Mexico and shit, but Stone Cold is a legend in the largest wrestling promotion in fucking world, he's in an environment where everything works in his advantage, Stone Cold stomps a mudhole through El Santo and walks it dry, then BAM! Stunner game over Austin wins
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Santo is a Mexican legend, Austin is an American legend. This one is relatively easy for me. Austin was one of the biggest stars ever period and never could care less about someone's legacy. He would fight anyone no matter how famous they were and he would usually win. That's what would happen here as he beats Santo in a good match.
El Santo may be a lucha libre legend & all but Stone Cold Steve Austin is a legend for the WWE & is pretty well known in more countries than the good ol USA & Mexico. The wrestling is a little different here in the stares than it is in Mexico. My prediction is that Stone Cold Steve Austin stomps a mudhole through Santo's ass & walks it dry, htis him with the Stunner for the win & then celebrates the victory by drinking beer.
It's...Baylariat!
Team Finnley Baylor
Stone Cold Steve Austin is more than likely the favorite to win the entire tournament. El Santo may be famous in Mexico, but the fact is, Stone Cold IS wrestling to most people. Think about that for a moment...
I always associated wrestling with Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, and now Stan Hansen. Most people may associate wrestling with Stone Cold or Goldberg. When a name is so recognized that even the average person knows who he is and what he does, that tells you something. Stone Cold transcended the main stream during his hey day. Celebrities, and anyone who was cool was wearing an Austin 3:16 shirt or doing the Stunner during a backyard wrestling match.
Stone Cold Steve Austin makes a hot mess out of El Santo. Then drinks beer. The End.
I always associated wrestling with Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, and now Stan Hansen. Most people may associate wrestling with Stone Cold or Goldberg. When a name is so recognized that even the average person knows who he is and what he does, that tells you something. Stone Cold transcended the main stream during his hey day. Celebrities, and anyone who was cool was wearing an Austin 3:16 shirt or doing the Stunner during a backyard wrestling match.
Stone Cold Steve Austin makes a hot mess out of El Santo. Then drinks beer. The End.
Firstly, a disclaimer. I know that nobody is going to vote for Santo. I wish I could convince you, but I know it won't work. If nothing else, at least think for a second before voting, and refrain from stating how much of a squash this'd be. I have decided to pre-empt what I expect the main arguments for Austin to be, and will later address anyone else's points.
Santo may be big in Mexico, but Austin is big in America so more important.Santo is the biggest star wrestling has ever produced anywhere. To say Santo was the Hogan of Mexico doesn't do him justice. You don't see statues of Hulk Hogan dotted around the US, nor will his funeral be attended by 10,000 people with Washington D.C. closed for the purpose. Austin may have made WWE the number one wrestling company, but Santo made wrestling the number one sport in Mexico, a far greater feat.
Austin has fought may great wrestlers Only one man ever got the better of Santo, and that was Blue Demon, but even he didn't beat Santo forever. Santo beat just about every other notable wrestler in Mexico for 40 years, Austin didn't even get the better of every notable wrestler over 4 years.
Austin turning face was the defining moment of the attitude eraSanto spent half of his career as a "rudo", meaning heel, but also meaning that he was a brawler. In fact, so popular were his matches that the crowd began to cheer him and he turned face. Sound familiar? The difference is that when Austin turned, that is when he became truly popular, whereas Santo already was.
The match is in Texas, so the crowd will be completely behind the rattlesnake. The fact that the match is in Texas obviously works to Austin's favour, but don't forget that Texas has a huge Hispanic population, who'd get behind Santo here. Santo often wrestled in front of large crowds in Texas and California unmasked and under his real name and drew fairly big numbers considering his true fake identitiy wasn't advertised.
Santo never made it big in AmericaSanto may never have come to America on a regular basis, but why would he when he was a national hero at home? He was winning masks and high profile fights all through his career, and was on top for far longer than Austin. Ask yourself this, did Austin ever make it big in Mexico? No, so don't expect the reverse. Santo's influence on wrestling in America is far greater than Austin's on Mexico. Without Santo there'd be no Mysterio or Guerreros.
Santo would be overpowered/outbrawled by Austin Austin may be taller and heavier than Santo, but he is not particularly stronger. Santo was quite a powerful wrestler, and finished people with a camel clutch, which is obviously a power submission move. As for brawling, I have already said that he spent half of his career as a brawling rudo, and was so good at it that the crowd started to want to see him rather than his tecnico (face) opponents. He then became a tecnico, and this is where his obvious technical and speed advantages over Austin became apparent. Austin was a nobody when he was a technical wrestler and a mega star when he was a brawler, Santo was huge when he was both.
This is in ECW, so Austin would win as he is modern and has weapons fights Firstly, ECW wasn't all about exploding barbedwire matches and the like, it also rose to prominence for its cruiserweight division, so Santo would fit right in. But wait! I hear you cry, Austin was a bad ass! He'd get the weapons, even if Santo wouldn't. Santo may not be famed for this, but he did often fight "superlibre" fights (literally "super free" but basically meaning "no rules") in the 1940s. One match he had with Dientes Hernandez ended with 8 successive low blows, and it made huge news in the Mexican papers. So, Santo can more than hold his own in a no rules environment.
Basically, there is no reason to go for Austin over Santo except for the fact that you are more familiar with Austin's acheivements and where you did them. This is a lame reason to vote for anyone, but if you wish to be ethnocentric, then there's nothing I can say. I've seen it said that Austin is the second greatest American wrestler of all time after Hogan, and I'm inclined to agree. However, Santo was voted the 8th greatest Mexican of all time. Not Mexican wrestler, not even greatest Mexican sportsman, 8th greatest Mexican person. That should give an indication to how important a figure he is.
Santo may be big in Mexico, but Austin is big in America so more important.Santo is the biggest star wrestling has ever produced anywhere. To say Santo was the Hogan of Mexico doesn't do him justice. You don't see statues of Hulk Hogan dotted around the US, nor will his funeral be attended by 10,000 people with Washington D.C. closed for the purpose. Austin may have made WWE the number one wrestling company, but Santo made wrestling the number one sport in Mexico, a far greater feat.
Austin has fought may great wrestlers Only one man ever got the better of Santo, and that was Blue Demon, but even he didn't beat Santo forever. Santo beat just about every other notable wrestler in Mexico for 40 years, Austin didn't even get the better of every notable wrestler over 4 years.
Austin turning face was the defining moment of the attitude eraSanto spent half of his career as a "rudo", meaning heel, but also meaning that he was a brawler. In fact, so popular were his matches that the crowd began to cheer him and he turned face. Sound familiar? The difference is that when Austin turned, that is when he became truly popular, whereas Santo already was.
The match is in Texas, so the crowd will be completely behind the rattlesnake. The fact that the match is in Texas obviously works to Austin's favour, but don't forget that Texas has a huge Hispanic population, who'd get behind Santo here. Santo often wrestled in front of large crowds in Texas and California unmasked and under his real name and drew fairly big numbers considering his true fake identitiy wasn't advertised.
Santo never made it big in AmericaSanto may never have come to America on a regular basis, but why would he when he was a national hero at home? He was winning masks and high profile fights all through his career, and was on top for far longer than Austin. Ask yourself this, did Austin ever make it big in Mexico? No, so don't expect the reverse. Santo's influence on wrestling in America is far greater than Austin's on Mexico. Without Santo there'd be no Mysterio or Guerreros.
Santo would be overpowered/outbrawled by Austin Austin may be taller and heavier than Santo, but he is not particularly stronger. Santo was quite a powerful wrestler, and finished people with a camel clutch, which is obviously a power submission move. As for brawling, I have already said that he spent half of his career as a brawling rudo, and was so good at it that the crowd started to want to see him rather than his tecnico (face) opponents. He then became a tecnico, and this is where his obvious technical and speed advantages over Austin became apparent. Austin was a nobody when he was a technical wrestler and a mega star when he was a brawler, Santo was huge when he was both.
This is in ECW, so Austin would win as he is modern and has weapons fights Firstly, ECW wasn't all about exploding barbedwire matches and the like, it also rose to prominence for its cruiserweight division, so Santo would fit right in. But wait! I hear you cry, Austin was a bad ass! He'd get the weapons, even if Santo wouldn't. Santo may not be famed for this, but he did often fight "superlibre" fights (literally "super free" but basically meaning "no rules") in the 1940s. One match he had with Dientes Hernandez ended with 8 successive low blows, and it made huge news in the Mexican papers. So, Santo can more than hold his own in a no rules environment.
Basically, there is no reason to go for Austin over Santo except for the fact that you are more familiar with Austin's acheivements and where you did them. This is a lame reason to vote for anyone, but if you wish to be ethnocentric, then there's nothing I can say. I've seen it said that Austin is the second greatest American wrestler of all time after Hogan, and I'm inclined to agree. However, Santo was voted the 8th greatest Mexican of all time. Not Mexican wrestler, not even greatest Mexican sportsman, 8th greatest Mexican person. That should give an indication to how important a figure he is.
justinsayne
Cody Rhodes is an excellant
Why the fuck would we shut down our government for the funeral of a celebrity much less a wrestler, our Government has far more important things to worry about then the death of the biggest wrestler in our country, Chrsit no wonder so many Mexicans flee their counrty with the government doing stupid shit like that
Rock, HBK, Hart, Taker, Triple H, Foley, etc. are not notable wrestlers?
How the fuck does this have anyhting to do with who would win the match?!?!
I'd like to think that the crowd really wouldn't effect Austin all that much, as soon as the bell rings he's got one goal on his mind and that's whooping Santos ass
Why the fuck would Austin go to Mexico when he's Main eventing for the biggest wrestling promotion in the world?, Santo never made it big outside of Mexico cause he knew he couldn't, at least guys like Guerrero and Mysterio had enough testicular fortitude to try and make it in big in promtions seen all over the world
Camel Clutch is going to be a bit hard to lock in when Austin is plummeling you in the head with a steel chair now isn't it, Santo will be lying in a pool of his own blood after getting stunned by Austin, and the whole rudo/tencio shit or whether the fans cheer or boo you doesn't matter in this match at all, all that matter if who walks out the winner and moves onto the next round
Austin is the guy who near ran Rikishi over with his truck, Austin is the guy who lifted Triple H up in a car on a forklift 20 feet in the air and dropped his ass, Austin has shown time and time again he will do whatever it take s to get the job done, 8 low blows won't happen if Austin turns Santo into roadkill first
Their are plenty of reasons Austin goes over Santo, many of them end with the fact that Austin is just plain better
You have just lost all credibility in my opinion...ALL. Where the hell to even start.
Lets start with both of their star power. Santo was a big star in Mexico, great for him. Throw him and whatever rinky dink federation he was in into the USA and either Vince would have bought them out or Austin would have put them out of business during the Attitude Era, just see the WCW story. WCW had alot of problmes internally but their biggest external problem was the WWF and Austin and you put that federation El Santo competed in in the USA and Austin would have eliminated them easily.
As far as great wrestlers go lets look at this....Austin has fought the following all in their primes...The Rock, Undertaker, HBK...not just their WM match look at KOTR, HHH, Angle, Benoit, Bret Hart, Owen Hart....name me a man on that list he didnt beat???
Austin REVOLUTIONIZED AN INDUSTRY. He made the cursing and violence cool not only in his federation WWF, but the competition WCW too. Its one thing to transform your federation but to transform the competition as well is a feat only Austin has been able to do. Hogan in WWF never transformed WCW. The more the WWF tried to get him to be a heel the more he was cheered. No one in the history of this business did that.
As far as Texas goes....were you there for this years Hall of Fame or WM? If not, you really have no justifiable point as TV did not do it justice. When the glass shattered at both events you could barely hear the music. If Austin had a match at WM it could have been anyone but Jesus Christ himself and Austin would have been the fan favorite.
Why woudl Steve Austin want to make it big in Mexico when he was the biggest star in wrestling/sports entertainment. The last time i checked many people are coming to the USA illegal everyday from Mexico...not the other way around. If yoiu want to make a name for yourself you come to the States. Austin is arguably the biggest name to ever compete in the world of professional wrestling and some guy from Mexico isnt in his class. If you want to make it in that class you need to be extremely popular in multiple countries. Austin was popular in the US nad overseas.
Austin was a technically gifted wrestler till he broke his neck, and if memory serves me right after that when he started opening up cans of whoop asss up on people his popularity rose to heights no one has ever reached. After the neck injury Austin could outbrawl anyone and if memory serves me right even after that he could still be a good technical wrestler, loook at his match against Angle or Benoit from RAW i cant remember who. He was taller and weighed more sure, but he was damn sure way more intense and in your face which is waht a brawler needed to be. He would gladly take a beating just to hand out a greater one. Camel Clutch, BIG DEAL, this is the same man who refused to say "I Quit" while in the Sharpshooter at WM. Do you really think he would quit in that??? I think NOT.
ECW was exactly what it was. But one thing you cant argue is that ECW remembered its own and stood by them no matter what. Look at RVD vs. John Cena from ONS. Austin has roots in ECW and when both guys stood in the ring and El Santo was announced the crowd would start the WHAT? chatn. And just in case he didnt understand that, you can bet your bottom dollar that the Ol Rattlesnake would have a finger or two to relay exactly what he and everyone else thought about him. We have all seen Austin unleash an ass whooping on everyone and he has no remorse in doing so. I would like to remind you about Austins first blood match with Kane, now yes he lost the match, but Kane also said if he lost he would set himself on fire, well the week before on raw this is the same Stone Cold who said he sit their and drink beer and watch kane burn and if he started to go out you could rest assure Ol Stone Cold would be right there to throw another log on the fire. This is a man who has no remorse, if you want sympathy take your ass to church El Santo. Austin is going to open one quick huge can of whoop ass.
To say El Santo should be Austin is just ridiculous. Steve Austin is better in every way than Santo ever was. When you llook back at prowrestling in twenty years, hell even now, Austin is look at as one if the biggest two stars to ever lace up the boots. This match is going to be El Santo confused by the crowd, fingers, stunner, Austin wins, beer bash.
HeadlessGnome
Dark Match Jobber
IMO El Santo wouldn't even win this if this was held on his home turf in Mexico and there was interference, the fact that this match resides in Texas makes it very clear who the winner is - the average wrestling fan has no clue who El Santo is and he certainly would not be going over one of the top 2 most popular stars in the WWE.
Yes, i think that's why so many Mexicans go to the USA. If the Mexicans want to stop them leaving, they shouldn't eliminate drug crime, or you know improve social conditions, they should stop having state funerals for preofessional wrestlers. Anyway, it wasn't closed because the government closed it, it was closed because so many people wanted to pay their respects that it greated gridlock. If you want to xenophobically call Mexicans stupud for doing that, go ahead.
Rock, HBK, Hart, Taker, Triple H, Foley, etc. are not notable wrestlers?
How did he get the better of Hart? By losing their most high profile match? By getting his nek broken by his brother? Nope, that's not it. He got the better of Foley when Foley was Dude Love, as Makind he lost to him when they fought at the Survivor Series 1998 and at Summerslam 1999. He lost to Triple H at the culmination of their big feud at No Way Out 2001. Fair enough, he mostly got the better of The Rock, is about even with Taker, beat HBK on his way out, but my point stil stands, he was nowhere near as dominant in his era as Santo was in his.
It doesn't, but people will certainly argue that Austin is better because he embodied the attitude era.
Seeing how Austin's popularity stemmed almost entirely from playing the crowd with catchphrases, I think the crowd would be as important in this match as any.
Why the fuck would Santo go to America when he's Main eventing for the biggest wrestling promotion in the world? EMLL were just about the ONLY national wrestling promotion anywhere when he started. In an era when cards in North America were promoted regionally, EMLL were having huge shows in Mexico City and all over the country being headlined by Santo, and attended by thousands. The only difference in their positions is that Austin lives in an English speaking country in the era of cable television.
No promotion was seen all over the world, but the one that had the biggest consistant audience was Santo's, and he dominated it. Without Santo, there wouldn't be a Rey Mysterio or Guerreros because it was him that made wrestling as important and relevant as he did in Mexico. If you take Austin out of the history of wrestling, you lose a hugely important guy in his own era, if you take Santo out you lose the popularity of an entire style of wrestling. Any "someone else could have done it" arguments are wrong, nobody else did do it, and will be levelled right back at Austin.
Stone Cold Stunner is going to be a bit hard to do, when Santo has punched Austin in the balls 8 times and he is doubling up in pain. Arguments like that hold no basis in anything, and you know it. If the crowd interaction doesn't matter, then what do you have? Wrestlers are defined by the crowd. If everyone shat their pants when you come to the ring, you'd become a main eventer, ask Jeff Hardy, if they didn't, you wouldn't, ask Shannon Moore. But if you want to ignore the crowd, look at the facts. Austin often lost big matches, such as the ones mentioned above. He lost the most defining match of his early career to Bret Hart. Santo rarely lost matches. In a battle of kayfabe, Santo wins. In a battle of popularity, Santo wins. In a battle of any criteria except "how american are you?", Santo wins.
Did he do any of those things in a wrestling match? Oh yeah, no.
How is he better? Because you've watched him win? I appreciate that you've said he is more pugnacious, but the fact that Austin pulled stunts doesn;'t make him any better in the ring, or any more likely to win.
I didn't know you attributed me any credibility, nothing ventured nothing gained I suppose. Seriously though, I appreciate you disagree, but I'm hardly arguing for some nobody to go over Austin. If this was in the Austin vs. Skinner thread, maybe I'd feel ALL credibility being lost was warranted, but not here.
Santo didnt stick to one federration as it were throughout his career, but he mostly worked in EMLL. Seeing as their shows are better attended than the WWE's, they have been around for about 25 years longer than the WWE or any of its predecessors, and they were selling out shows in their own purpose built arena week in week out 60 years before the first episode of Raw aired, I think it's a little harsh to call them "rinky dink".
McMahon didn't put WCW out of business, WCW did. He struck lucky with Austin, and I'm not denying the impact Austin had, but the popularity of Austin in 1999 in America is nothing on the popularity of Santo in 1969 in Mexico. Maybe Santo wouldn't have been popular in America in the 90s, but he wasn't trying to be. If we really want to go down this road, lets compare shall we. Nobody like Austin was remotely popular in Mexico in the 50s and 60s. A charismatic guy in a mask, Rey Mysterio, has been popular in the US in the 1990s, so if anything Santo would fare better in Austin's environment, than Austin would in Santo's.
It's not a matter of beating or not, but a matter of who he was consistently better than. I've already answered this previously. Also, beating Owen Hart and Chris Benoit does not make you a great wrestler. There's no point in me reeling off the names of people that Santo has beat, because they won't mean anything, but he beat EVERYBODY who meant anything over a long time, Austin had a few wins and a few losses against the people he fought in a shorter timespan. Not to mention the fact that he refused to lose to people on quite a number of occaisions.
Santo was a heel that was cheered. He did it in the 1960s, nothing pioneering there Austin. I don't think people seem to grasp how important Santo was. You can argue that Austin single handedly changed the industry, he didn't, but you can argue that he did. Santo not only changed the industry by making the characters of lucha libre become real heroes for the audiences, but he also popularized wrestling to a degree that Austin could only dream about.
So, the crowd cheered him at an event dedicated to him? Well done. I'm not saying Austin isn't popular, I'm saying that 42.4% of people in Dallas are hispanic and that therefore Santo, a hispanic hero, would also have a huge following. Bearing in mind that wrestling is more popular in hispanic communities than white ones, the crowd support for each man would be fairly similar.
Austin wasn't popular anywhere except the WWE. He bombed in WCW, and people can snide at Bischoff all they want, but if you have a guy that doesn't draw anything, then would you keep him on the roster. Santo was popular everywhere he wrestled, something that Austin could never claim to be. Santo did wrestle in Houston, as I've said before, in front of fairly big crowds, but without his mask and character. He lived at a time when very few wrestlers crossed borders, and international weekly television broadcasts didn't exist. Nobody would level this criticism at Lou Thesz, but because Santo lives in a different country and the WWE don't get a stiffy over him, nobody talks about him. Austin was popular verseas in that he appeared on WWE cards that took place overseas. Santo wasn't that popular in America because he rarely fought there, but he was popular in Argentina, Ecuador, Haiti, Cuba, Spain, Colombia, Puerto Rico... but I suppose, being Spanish speaking countries they don't count, right?
Show me a match where he is Stone Cold and a solid technical wrestler. He never was because it wouldn't suit the character, and the fact that he injured his neck only hammered this point home more. It isn't his fault that he broke his neck, but he did and was a brawler after that. Santo was a bawler too, but one who was faster and could rely on technical wrestling if need be, he has more options to bring to the table than Austin.
Ok, I will ignore the fact that afinishing move by someone older is miraculously more powerful if done by someone old, and go with his other submission finisher, the boston crab. Or any of his other various diving headbutts etc. Santo has plenty in his arsenal that could be used to beat Austin, it was an example. Very few people have ever powered out of a camel clutch finisher, and Austin isn't one of them.
This sums it up really. People like Austin because he was a promo man, and he was a big deal when they were younger. Santo is that to a different generation. Like you said, he lost that match, but tis ok because he spurted out some catchphrases beforehand, so he's still cool. Austin was cabable of getting a reaction on the mic, whereas Santo's popularity came from his in ring work. The crowd loved watching him wrestle and win, they did not love him because they could finish off his catchphrases for him. Steve Austin may have wrestled in ECW, but I'd hardly call him one of their own. His influence, importance and legacy in ECW is fuck all on RVD's.
I clearly don't think that Austin only had catchphrases, and I'm not denying his impact, but compared to Santo, he just isn't in the same league of popularity.
Confused by fingers? If Austin did that kind of shit against someone faster than him, he'd be on his arse very quickly. I can't iterate enough how much more of a big deal in wrestling Santo was than Stone Cold, but because the people on this site are Anglo Saxons watching American wrestling, Stone Cold will be seen as the popular one in this match. Austin has nothing on Santo, except for the fact that he is American. Santo is quicker, more popular, has won a higher percentage of his most important matches and has been a mega star from the day he first stepped into the ring to the day he died.
You can talk about Austin 3:16 shirts all you like, he has the fortune of working in a commercialised world. Santo didn't, but he still has T-shirts made for him, because he is such a cult hero.
In all seriousness, Austin is a great wrestler, but he is not the performer that Santo was, and as a result I have to say Santo would go over in this match aftera long, by ECW standards anyway, classic.
As far as I'm aware, the biggest star El Santo has defeated is Austin Aries. And that was in a fictional internet wrestling tournament. Aries was robbed. What happened to voting on name value and popularity alone, I miss those days.
Good posting by Taysticles. I hate him.
If we're being honest we don't want to see all these no name Mexicans and oldies go further, vote Austin and dump out all the Hackenshits and Ganges. Wrestling started in the 80's, you all know it's true.
Good posting by Taysticles. I hate him.
If we're being honest we don't want to see all these no name Mexicans and oldies go further, vote Austin and dump out all the Hackenshits and Ganges. Wrestling started in the 80's, you all know it's true.
Cena's Little Helper
Mid-Card Championship Winner
I am going to vote on wrestling ability here, so I'm going with Austin.
Furthermore, anyone who makes the argument that people are only voting for Austin based on his popularity while citing El Santo's massive popularity in Mexico as a reason to vote for him is being a hypocrite.
Santo is only known today because of the prodigious amount of shit movies he made that are now cult classics (why they are cult classics, I'll never know). In hindsight, El Santo didn't bring that much to the world of professional wrestling. Sure, he may have been the first popular masked luchador, but the true pioneer of the lucha libre style of wrestling we see today was Mil Mascaras, not El Santo.
Furthermore, anyone who makes the argument that people are only voting for Austin based on his popularity while citing El Santo's massive popularity in Mexico as a reason to vote for him is being a hypocrite.
Santo is only known today because of the prodigious amount of shit movies he made that are now cult classics (why they are cult classics, I'll never know). In hindsight, El Santo didn't bring that much to the world of professional wrestling. Sure, he may have been the first popular masked luchador, but the true pioneer of the lucha libre style of wrestling we see today was Mil Mascaras, not El Santo.
If you're going on "wrestling ability" as smarks put it, maybe you have a case for Stunning Steve Austin era Steve Austin winning, but Stone Cold was as shit as Hogan in this respect. If you ar eputting it on actual wrestling ability, as in getting a reaction out of the crowd, Santo was better than Hogan, who was better than Austin. Santo was always the most popular wrestler in any of his matches, and the crowd went ape shit every time he fought. If you are putting it on kayfabe ability, you are wrong. Austin won a lot of matches against a lot of people, but Santo beat literally everyone of note apart from Blue Demon over a 40 year period, whereas Austin beat most of the people that mattered over a 4 year period.
As far as I can see, nobody is doing that, I'm saying that if you are going to vote on popularity, then you should vote for the person who is more popular. It stands to reason, really.
How can you not like "El Santo versus Frankenstein"? In all honesty, I imagine you are the one of the only people on these forums who is aware of these movies, and definitely one of the few that has seen them. People are far more likely to hear of his wrestling than his films, which often centre around wrestling, actually. If we're bringing shit films into it, why not bring up The Condemned?
The reason Santo was in those films is the reason that The Rock and Austin are in them now, because they are the most popular wrestlers.
You are dead wrong here. While its true that Mascaras was the one to bring wrestling out of Mexico, it's popularity in the country is almost entirely due to Santo and Blue Demon. Santo is still revered, and Mil Mascaras is on the level below him, along with Blue Demon and maybe Canek. I hate the comparison, but it is like Hogan is Santo, and Austin, Rock and Savage are the other three.
Santo was selling out Arena Mexico 20 years before Mascaras debuted in his matches with Gory Guerrero.
Cena's Little Helper
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Who did Santo beat that is noteworthy besides a few "Mexican legends" like himself? I, for the life of me, can't think of anyone. I'm looking to you to inform me of this. Santo, like Hackenschmidt, is a relic of the past. It may be true that they both outpopped and drew more than wrestlers like Hogan, Austin, and The Rock. But, there's virtually no proof of this either on video or in books. Actually, there may be proof in books; if you have a mastery of Spanish and access to some sort of Mexican archive, I'll be more than happy to indulge you.
Oh, and as far as Austin's prime goes, I'm going to equivocate like a bitch here and use both of his primes, even though they are defined differently. His wrestling prime was in the early 90s while his prime as a superstar was in the late 90s/early 2000s. And, I'm counting them both, so he pretty much runs the gamut.
And, call it a bias of era or culture, but there's so much more proof of Austin's popularity than El Santo's. I will always go with video and books over hearsay.
Well, here I am going to have to be a bit cynical and say that Santo's probably in this Tournament because people put him on their list to make it seem like they're wrestling connoisseurs; The Wrestling Observer Newsletter's Hall Of Fame and The PWI 500 of the PWI Years are easy to find online. Honestly, I have never seen anyone mention El Santo on these forums besides in threads that are specific to this Tournament. Also, I would bring up Austin's shit films if, like El Santo, he had made over 50 of them.
I won't argue with you on that point; El Santo was probably very popular in Mexico, and this is probably what got his foot in the door in terms of making movies. But, his written legacy in the English language consists almost entirely of his film career. So, it's possible that time has been unjust to El Santo. Nonetheless, his movies have simply overshadowed his wrestling career.
My original comments had nothing to do with the international popularity of lucha libre; rather, my comments dealt with who has had a bigger influence on the style of wrestling that we refer to as lucha libre. And, as far as I can tell, Mil Mascaras' role was much bigger than El Santo's in the development of the Lucha Libre style. When I think of lucha libre today, I think of, primarily, three wrestlers: Rey Mysterio, Jr., Místico, and Último Guerrero. In my opinion, Mil Mascaras has had an indelible influence on all of these wrestlers in terms of how they wrestle. On the other hand, the only thing I can say for sure in regards to El Santo is that Místico, when he dons his silver attire, closely resembles El Santo in terms of looks.
Wow, Tastycles made a really good argument. Also, people liek to state that AUstin WAS a technical wrestler, but then use his dominance of the industry to worship him, when he wasn't a technical wrestler at all. I might vote for Santo purely because the comment about "maybe that's why Mexicans want to get into the USA" is the most ******ed argument ever.
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Yeah, what are you talking about? Austin was an EXCELLENT technical wrestler before Owen Hart piledrived him at Summerslam 1997. And, yes, marks for Austin like myself do worship him because of his industry dominance, precisely because no American professional wrestler deserved it more than him.
As I have said before, if professional wrestling careers were stories, Austin's would be the greatest ever told. Here's a guy who was an excellent and criminally underrated wrestler who got fired in 1995 by Eric Bischoff, the man who would, in just a few year's time, have WCW dominating the WWF in the ratings war of the mid to late 90s. Subsequently, Austin goes to ECW, arguably the most influential small promotion of all time, for a year or so, only to eventually find himself in a dead-end gimmick in the WWF. Then, out of nowhere, McMahon lets Austin cut loose at King of the Ring 1996, and Austin's potential to become a huge star resurfaces. He lingers in the upper mid-card for a bit, before finally, in 1997, having one of the WWF's most noteworthy feuds with The Hart Foundation. But, alas, Austin's fans are once again heartbroken when Owen Hart severely damages Austin's neck in 1997. However, the Rattlesnake surprises us all by coming back to compete in just three months' time and to begin The Attitude Era only a few months later by defeating Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania 14. And, it is this era, led by Austin, that allows the WWF to once again become significant and rally back to ultimately defeat Bischoff's WCW in the ratings war. What more could you ask for out of a career, besides wanting it to last longer?
And, people, please spare me the love for El Santo. I could just as easily go on Wikipedia and paraphrase from there. Furthermore, his page isn't even all that great; it has hardly any sources and all it talks about it is how much of a legend El Santo is in Mexico, how he became a Mexican icon through comics and movies, and how he stood as a symbol for justice. Give me something substantive; I should be able to know how great El Santo was without having to fly to Mexico to find out.
Well he beat just about everyone who was a big deal in Mexico during his career. Mascaras, Rayo de Jalisco, El Solitario, Black Shadow, Gory Guerrero, Dientes Gonzalez and some big named foreigners e.g. Suga Sita. Those are off the top of my head. I didn't bother before, because those names mean nothing to anybody, but there you have it. He only beat Mexican legends, well not only is that wrong, he actually beat some Japanese and Chinese one. Even if he did, the argument is completely ******ed - Austin only beat "American legends".
Where do you think that I'm getting my information? Do yuo think I'm mgically pulling it out of my arse, or do you think that maybe, just maybe, I've read books and seen programmes that have led me to believe this. The video proof is hard to find without really looking, but I will try and find it soon.
No, sorry, what I did was randomly pick a wrester I was going to push and then did it based off nothing. Seriously, i you don't know anything about Santo, then you shouldn't be voting, it even says so in the rules of the tournament.
Hackenschmidt was a shoot fighter who retired in 1911 and never worked a match, Santo last fought in 1984, so if he has no place in this tournament, neither does Thesz or Sammartino.
Fair enough, he might be stronger from a smark viewpoint, he has a chance agianst Santo as a technical wrestler, but I'm not even convinced by that.
Fair enough, but like I say, if you don't know, don't vote, it says so in the rules.
If Santo is on those lists made by people who like and enjoy wrestling, is it unlikely that people would put him on their list on this forums? It's lists made by people who like and enjoy wrestling after all.
You don't have to go very far to have heard about Santo, say for example the second paragraph of the Professional Wrestling page on Wikipedia.
Riiiiight. El Santo's wkipedia is about half and half, and obviously, as you have said, there is more evidence about something that is in video than only in print, but I can tell you as much as you need to hear about Santo's wrestling career, and where possible direct you to oniline resources. If anyone on here has only heard of his movies, which are essentially B-movies interluded with several wrestling matches, then I'd be very surprised. Even if they had, you could argue for his strengths based on the fact he wins all of these interludes.
Well, if this is what you think when you think lucha libre, you are not entirely misguided. Santo's prime was as a heel, and those people are faces, and that makes a huge difference in Mexico. So stylistically, they all owe things to Blue Demon and earlier luchadors to whom I am ignorant perhaps more than Santo, but the fact that Santo's son wrestles like him but is still one of the best luchadors today would suggest his style was good. In terms of the lifestyle and working of the crowd, Santo is most definitely the person they aspire to.
No qualms with this, but he wasn't wrestling technically as Stone Cold, as it doesn't suit the character. But as you are using a split prime, this argument needs no further mention.
El Santo was selling out Arena Mexico within a few weeks of debuting.
El Santo has beaten all of the people I mentioned before, as well as winning the mask of 16 different wrestlers, something that is almost unmatched in terms of numbers.
El Santo lost about 0.001% of the matches he had in his career. As far as I can find, he lost to Rayo de Jalisco once, Demon 2-3 times, Black Shadow and Blue Demon together once, and Black Shadow on his own once.
If you don't believe me of how much of a legend he is, look at this statue of him, and it isn'tthe only one. Where is the statues of any other wrestler ever?
I know I'm not going to convince anyone except that guy who got himself banned apparently, but I think it's ignorant to dismiss Santo out of hand. You're arguments about Austin being a great technical wrestler are sound, and I wouldn't care if this was the basis of your voting but they are undermined by saying pig ignorant things like "Santo is just the star of shit movies".
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How is this a ******ed argument exactly? El Santo's prime was during the days of territory wrestling, while Austin's prime was during the days of virtually insulated national wrestling promotions. Furthermore, if memory serves me correct, El Santo spent some time in CMLL, which was an NWA affiliate back in El Santo's prime. It seems only natural to me then that he should have had matches with at least some people outside of his country, given how big you say he was.
On the other hand, how could Austin have faced any legends besides American ones? I don't believe he participated in any of the WCW/NJPW Supershows, as these were in the early 90s and he was not yet big enough to warrant having a match in the Tokyo Dome. Also, if memory serves me correct, he was long gone from ECW when they started doing inter-promotional work with FMW. So, that leaves us with Austin's time in the WWF/WWE, a company that hasn't done an inter-promotional show in almost 20 years.
So, as far as I can tell, my argument is sound. But, it did need clarification, so thanks for calling it out.
Please do find sources. I actually looked into El Santo due to your intentions to support him, and I have found jack shit to warrant his going over Austin. But, there is still some hope: I have John Molinaro's The Top 100 Pro Wrestlers Of All Time on hold at the library, and I'm going to pick it up tomorrow. Maybe he can convince me of El Santo's greatness.
I have no clue what purpose this serves. Is this an attempt to school me with pedantry? Professional wrestling was at some point considered a shooting activity, or so say the following books:
- Mick Foley's Mankind: Have A Nice Day - A Tale Of Blood And Sweatsocks
- Bret Hart's Hitman: My Real Life in the Cartoon World of Wrestling
- Shaun Assael and Mike Mooneyham's Sex, Lies, and Headlocks: The Real Story of Vince McMahon and World Wrestling Entertainment
Well, I'm convinced by it, and I think many others are, as there is just so much more tangible proof for Austin being a great wrestler than there is for El Santo (unless you count his movies, of course).
Oh, I know about El Santo all right. I am just giving you one of the potential biases in my judgment. I have a lot of text on El Santo that tells me how great he was, but I hardly have anything that allows me to judge for myself whether or not El Santo was great.
This is actually probable. One of Slyfox696's theories is that people in these tournaments only vote for Japanese wrestlers because of how great they are supposed to be, without ever actually having seen any of their matches. This is one thing in which I am in agreement with Slyfox696, and I think El Santo falls in the same boat as these wrestlers. Never mind, I actually like a lot of the well-regarded Japanese wrestlers; I've actually seen them wrestle outside of movies.
After reading El Santo's Wikipedia page, I'm not so hot on that site anymore, save for match results of past shows.
Definitely man, hook me up with some sources. I have probably already seen most of them, but I'm still game.
I am definitely looking forward to getting those sources from you.
Nothing much to say here, except good for El Santo.
If you don't believe me of how much of a legend he is, look at this statue of him, and it isn'tthe only one. Where is the statues of any other wrestler ever?
Why would there ever be a statue of a professional wrestler in America? American professional wrestling is fringe entertainment. People hold sports stars in much higher regard. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that Austin is not as popular as El Santo; all it does mean is that Americans, in general, love sports a hell of a lot more than professional wrestling. Also, does professional wrestling even have that much to compete with in Mexico, save for football/soccer and (maybe) baseball? I don't think Mexico has a huge following for basketball, American football, and racecar driving like America does. So, it looks like El Santo doesn't have that much to compete with in terms of adulation.
Yes, I am ignorant. I obviously did nothing in terms of research for El Santo. Here's a little tidbit from Heather Levi's paper, "Sport and Melodrama: The Case of Mexican Professional Wrestling:"
El Santo was recruited to the film industry in 1958 and continued to star in at least one film a year until 1983. Although lucha libre was a popular entertainment before El Santo and others crossed over into film, the cinema contributed to its ever wider audience. And while the movies appropriated the figure of the wrestler, live wrestling in turn appropriated the mystique of the cinema (Levi 67).
This was published in Social Text, No. 50; The Politics of Sport (Spring, 1997). If you have access to scholarly journals, I highly suggest you check it out. It doesn't have that much to say about El Santo though, besides the trite words about how great and beloved he was in Mexico...damn, I would expect a scholar to give me a reason why he was so great and beloved!
So, yes, if am pig ignorant because I scoured professional wrestling resources on El Santo and found out that, ultimately, his greatest contribution was to cinema and that virtually no one knows shit about his legacy to wrestling, then I am guilty as charged.
Ah, I see. You are right and wrong here. Santo did wrestle during the territory days, and EMLL (old name of CMLL) were technically part of the NWA, in that they awarded NWA titles. However, they used the Welterweight, Middleweight and I think possibly Light Heavyweight titles, which were never defended in America because there was little interest, in the same way that there was little interest in American heavyweight wrestling in Mexico until the 1970s.
Santo fought Suge Sita (sp?) who was a Chinese wrestler for the Welterweight title, and a few Japanese people that ventured into Mexico but crossing borders out of Mexico was as rare in his day as it was in Austin's to leave America. Santo did wrestle a few shows, unmasked under his real name in the late 40s in Houston, and drew fairly well, but to little fanfare.
EMLL was pretty much exactly the same, they let people in, but not out. The people who came in were few and far between, but often lost to Santo. When Santo was allowed to wrestle certain shows for UWA, a Mexican promotion, it was considered shit-the-bed worthy. Indeed, EMLL's closed shop attitude is in part what made the founders of UWA do something about it. Santo was as handcuffed as Austin, so the argument is unfair on both of them.
ditto.
Part of the reason I love Santo is because I went to a lucha show were they showed highlights of Santo vs. Blue Demon's feud over the year because either Blue Demon jr. or El Hijo del Santo were fighting, I forget which as I've seen them both a fair few times. The crowd reaction was unbelievable, but obviously I don't have access to this.
This book is probably a good start to appreciating Lucha Libre (I apologise it is from the UK Amazon link) and the entries for Blue Demon and El Santo in Molinaro's book should also be a good start. Apart from that it's hard to say why they were popular, they just were, in the same way that I'm not sure you could pinpoint what made Hogan or the Ultimate Warrior popular to anybody that hadn't seen them.
Videos are far harder to come by, but I'll give it my best shot. It's not very hard to find Santo matches on youtube, but they are almost entirely taken from movies, so while they are still normal matches, they have either no crowd, or random face shots of someone in the crowd reacting, which is fine, but it's hard to be taken seriously if I spot a video that has a title like Santo contra Dracula, if you can look past that look then up, or I'll hook you up.
The fact he has statues, the fact the crowd cheer for him and the fact that any explanation of Lucha Libre will contain his name within the first two sentences is enough to explain his popularity to me, as his position in 8th place in the Greatest Mexicans list. Elvis came in 8th on the American one, to put that into context. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw the list, sorry. Hugo Sanchez, the greatest Mexican footballer was about 11 or 12th I think.
Right, but the point is is that you can't really compare a guy who actually fought people to a guy who pretends to. Otherwise you'd have to do every match as a shoot, and we'd end up with Kurt Angle winning every year. Santo was a worker, like Austin, they can be compared directly. Hackenschmidt and Gotch were not workers, so cannot be compared directly.
As I said, if you are looking for "technical wrestlers", then maybe Austin does trump Santo, but you better be arguing for Hogan to lose every single match if you do. Santo was not the most technically gifted wrestler ever, but he could certainly hold his own. He was one of the best rudos ever, that's for sure and as much of a bad ass as Austin. In his first match as Santo he was disqualified for beating his opponent too much, then the referee had a go at him, then he twatted the referee. Bad ass.
Fair enough. I think he's someone who history has been kind to, there's nobody saying "Santo sucked", but perhaps there's a reason for that. I can only say this, whenever I've seen him infront of a crowd doing anything, on a chatshow even, everyone has shat their pants whenever he does anything. The man just oozed charisma but I think perhaps some of it gets lost in translation between eras and cultures.
I'm partially guilty of this. I have voted for Japanese wrestlers who I am less familiar with after only watching 3 or 4 matches on youtube and spending a little while researching, largely Wikipedia and it's subsequent sources, but this is usually because from that alone it is hugely apparant that they have done more in wrestling than Van Hammer. I've never voted for anyone without watching at least 3 matches from them.
However, I don't doubt that Slyfox has a point and that some people do vote for things to look smart, but I find it very hard to believe that whoever put them on their lists did it for no reason. His position as 33 seed with 221 points from 3 votes would suggest that he was 26th on those lists on average, so some people clearly respect his contributions, so I don't think he was a whimsical addition by anyone to look smart. Without knowing who's lists he was on, I couldn't tell you.
All old wrestlers wikis are shit, true story. For the most part there are better sites dedicated to them or their styles. Luchawiki is a good start for luchadors, and it has most of the significant results of people's careers on there.
The book is what you want for the deeper stuff, luchawiki is a good start point for an overview of his career and acheivements.
You wanted reasons for his greatness, you got them.
Well "soccer" as you call it is insanely popular in Mexico, it is one of only two countries to have held a World Cup and the national team job is notoriously difficult to keep because expectations are so high. Then there's baseball and boxing, and the fact there's less disposable income in Mexico.
But anyway, I suppose you've illustrated my point really. The reason wrestling is a hugely popular pastime in Mexico is because Santo made it so. Before him it wasn't very huge, he and Blue Demon took it to the level it is on now, and that is why there are statues of him, that is why his funeral was attended by 10,000 people and that is why his popularity eclipses Austin's.
I stand corrected, you have clearly done your research, I appreciate it's hard, and I wish I had the time to find you the things I researched myself about 6 months ago to show everyone, but unfortunately I don't.
It is really hard to come by English sources, and I have the advantages of being both a part time researcher and actually having an interest in lucha libre, and I appreciate your efforts.
Tastycles, I really hope El Santo puts up a good showing, as this would be a great match between two very different wrestlers. But, I'm voting Austin. I watched the matches that you posted with El Santo in them, and was very impressed. But, he also missed a few moves, and it only takes one miss for Austin to hit him with a Stunner.
And, to anyone that says fighting drunk in ECW is a hinderance, look at Sandman.
And, to anyone that says fighting drunk in ECW is a hinderance, look at Sandman.
I went with Austin. I'm just not a big Lucha fan, or a big supporter of that style of wrestling. I feel that throughout my time as a wrestling fan that I have watched enough of it, watched enough of the legends, and generally seen enough to form my opinion of it. I simply don't like the style, and I don't get it. Maybe that's me just being a kid in the midwest growing up in the middle of a territory war with the NWA and the WWF. I'm used to that style of wrestling, and maybe I simply can't be helped.
I admire El Santo, I think he's a damn fine wrestler, but Steve Austin is one fo the best, period. This is an environment custom made for him to dominate, and I can't see a Lucha Legend being the one to stop it.
I admire El Santo, I think he's a damn fine wrestler, but Steve Austin is one fo the best, period. This is an environment custom made for him to dominate, and I can't see a Lucha Legend being the one to stop it.