Til Death do us Part?

[LSN80]

For us married folk here, we're quite familar with this phrase. Actually, Im sure all of us have heard it at some point. The wedding vows that each person who marries contains these words, along with the words "In Sickness and Health." Once those words have been utterred, we've made a promise and a commitment to give our life to and share in both the good and bad times with our spouse. Its not just words we say to get through the ceremony and get it on already, it's acknowledging that we've decided to live our lives for someone else, and they ours. So I was rather surprised at Pat Robertson's comments regarding Alzheimers. For those unaware who Pat is, he's a co-anchor for The 700 Club, the penmultimate show on the Christian Broadcasting Network. Pat, a Baptist Minister, often uses the show as his platform to speak his opinion on religious and political views.

So it came as a surprise to prominent religious leaders, those in the healthcare industry and media in general when Robertson spoke his views on Alzheimers patients and their spouses. Robertson had fielded a call where the man asked him how to advise a friend who was cheating on his wife. His wife had Alzheimer's, and no longer knew her husband's name, never mind having the ability to fulfill him sexually. Robertson's advice was as follows:

"This is a terribly hard thing. I hate Alzheimer’s. It is one of the most awful things, because here’s the loved one — this is the woman or man that you have loved for 20, 30, 40 years, and suddenly that person is gone. I know that maybe it sounds cruel, but if he's going to do something, he should divorce her and start all over again, but make sure she has custodial care and somebody looking after her. I wouldn't put a guilt trip on someone for divorcing a spouse with Alzheimer's disease, because in health and the marital relationship, it's a kind of death anyway."

Im not looking at this from a Religious perspective, simply a relationship one. Personally, there are many issues I have with Robertson's response. Many malignant cancers are a "death sentence" as well, but does that mean one should be encouraged to leave their spouse once they got ill? If one's spouse becomes a parapalegic, does that give them some kind of license for divorce? I've heard stories of people who have left their spouses after they sufferred a dehabilitating injury, citing their inability to cope with the change. Robertson, amongst others, seems to have forgetten those vows, ones Im sure he's had many couples recite as a minister. You know, the one's regarding in sickness and in health?

What Robertson is doing is giving someone a free pass to leave their spouse when they need them most. He talks of the 20,30, and 40 years of love and support between spouses, and tellss them to throw it all away, given certain circumstances. These aren't cases of abuse, infidelity, or neglect. This is a case of one's spouse losing their health(and in this case, their mind). The person with this disease hasn't chosen the illness: They've been afflicted with it. I feel that this is a case where when the ill spouse needs them most, Robertson is giving spouses permission to abandon their partner.

Dr. Amanda Smith, Medical Director at the University of South Florida Alzheimer's Center in Tampa, said the following regarding Robertson's comments:

“I think he was trying to give someone the freedom to move on, but he only took account of the caregiver without taking account of the patient.Even if someone doesn’t recognize a spouse as specifically their spouse, there is often a familiarity with that person and a feeling of comfort, especially if they have been married for decades. While Alzheimer's certainly affects the dynamic of relationships, marriage vows are taken in sickness and in health."

I'm not suggesting that this would be an easy thing to cope with, nor would I look down on someone who chose to go this route, no matter how much I disagree. But when we give someone permission to break their vows(My guess is that Robertson suggested divorce so to avoid "sin") over something that involves the "death of a marriage", it's a slippery slope. Next, we'll have spouses claiming the "death of their marriage" because their spouses watch too much TV, play too many video games, or work too many hours.

Joel Hunter, pastor of Northland Church in Orlando, Fla, said the following:

"I'm just flabbergasted. I just don't know how anyone who is reading Scripture or is even familiar with the traditional wedding vows can come out with a statement like that. Obviously, we can all rationalize the legitimacy for our own comfort that would somehow make it OK to divorce our spouse if circumstances become very different or inconvenient. ... That's almost universal, but there's just no way you can get out of what Jesus says about marriage."

To completely understand what Hunter is saying, I feel it is important in context to see what Jesus taught about marriage, just as a point of reference in Matthew 19:4-6.

“Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

Ill be the first to admit I don't agree with Jesus' view of marriage in some ways .Repetitive infildelity, physical abuse, neglect, and severe verbal belittlement are judgment calls any spouse should be allowed to have, both for the sake of their sanity, and their physical safety as well. But Robinson's ideals open the door for people to come up with any convenient excuse they like as justification. Robertson's ideals spit in the face of "In sickness and in Health." Im not suggesting that severe illnesses, such as Alzheimer's, are going to be easy to deal with. But marriage isn't easy, and people work through issues, disparities and roadblocks on a daily basis. Because they treasure their vows, they're able to deal with major changes that issues, amongst others, that illness brings. These people truly understand and treasure their marriage vows as compared to those who take the "easy way out".

Thoughts on Robertson's comments? Do you agree or disagree?

Under what circumstances do you feel it's ok to divorce?

If an ill spouse gave you a free pass to see another man/woman, what would you do?

These questions are simply to drive discussion. Any other thoughts on this are welcome.

 

[klunderbunker]

Robertson's statements come off as ridiculous to me. It's almost as if he's saying "look out for yourself and don't worry about the other person who is so sick they probably can't remember their own name or how to eat. Go worry about yourself because you're too horny to think straight." That's absurd and completely against the point of marriage.

It's statements like these that fly in the face of all arguments for the sanctity of marriage. I've never been married but if I ever am and someone suggested this to me, I'd probably have some legal issues to deal with from punching them in the face. this is almost sickening as Robertson is more or less saying sex is more important than the connection you have when marrying someone. Attitudes like that are why we have so many divorces in this country and why marriage means so little anymore.

Robertson is wrong here and the advice I'd give to a person like this is "sit down, shut up, grow up, and think about someone other than yourself, because you sound like a baby that isn't getting his way. You're not getting sex and the person you're not getting it from has no idea who they are or where they are because of something they have no control over while you're complaining about not getting laid. Think about that for a minute and while you're looking for someone else, try not to think about the person you spent your life with being terrified because they don't recognize themselves in the mirror anymore."

 

[JWGunslinger]

Ok seriously LSN, would you stop making such amazing threads? At this rate I should just make my sig, "Another exellent thread LSN". Seriously though, great thread brother.

Thoughts on Robertson's comments? Do you agree or disagree?
I disagree and frankly am very surprised at Robertson for saying something like that, he had to know that saying something like that would spark criticism quicker than wildfire. It's a horrible situation and it's a difficult thing to deal with for both the person with the disease and the spouse but let me start by saying one thing, if someone would leave their husband or wife after several decades of marriage just because they aren't getting any then I am beyond sickened. Sex is great, anyone who's had it loves it but if you told me my fiance had some disease and we would never be able to have sex again I would the thought of leaving her would never cross my mind, I would continue to stay by her side and do so for the rest of my life because that is a husband or wife is supposed to do!

Under what circumstances do you feel it's ok to divorce?
Marriage is not what it once was, it isn't held to the same standard and quite honestly in general does not mean as much as it did in the past. It's sad how normal it is to hear about someone getting a divorce or cheating on their spouse on a regular basis, it really makes me sad because personally I don't think there are many things more beautiful than a good marriage. My opinion of what should constitute divorce may be a little stern for some but it's how I believe it should be, too many people get married and divorced because they don't think and they rush.
My opinion of times when divorce should be considered for others could be if the two make eachother unhappy, they try working things out and after that fails they both agree to split and then things get more complicated if children are involved. Then the only other reason would be if one cheated on the other, then divorce is obviously the right choice and the bastard or bitch who cheated can answer to god for what they have done, i'd prefer to throw them in jail personally because nothing is more vile than someone who spits on the sanctity of marriage.

If an ill spouse gave you a free pass to see another man/woman, what would you do?First off my fiance would never do that but all joking aside I would not want that at all. I love my fiance and she is all that I want and all that I need for the rest of my life, and honestly the idea of such a thing sickens me. I don't understand how someone could go through with something like that with a clean conscience, in my opinion once you are married that is the one person for you for the rest of your life and the fact that someone would consider insulting their spouse by doing something like that whether they have permission or not is beyond me.

 

[JW'sGirl]

Thoughts on Robertson's comments? Do you agree or disagree.

I think that's terrible. He made a commitment to be with his wife in sickness and in health. This is no excuse for him to divorce his wife. If any of you have ever seen The Notebook, that's how I would react if my spouse had Alzheimer's and that's how I would hope my spouse would react if I had Alzheimer's. Marriage is forever. Robertson is an idiot.

Under what circumstances do you feel it's ok to divorce?

There are only a few cases in which I believe divorce is ok:
1. If your relationship has become unbearable and you've tried EVERYTHING you possibly can to fix it.
2. If one person cheats.
3. Physical or verbal abuse.

If an ill spouse gave you a free pass to see another man/woman, what would you do?

I would laugh at him and tell him that would never happen and then I stay by his side until the end. Because marriage is something you do once, in my opinion, and you should treat it as if you'll never get a second chance.

 

[Mustang Sally]

But marriage isn't easy, and people work through issues, disparities and roadblocks on a daily basis.

Yes, they work through them, and sometimes the marriage survives.....and sometimes not. The key is that both spouses get to work through it with both (hopefully) having a say. In the case where one partner has Alzheimer's, or some other disease that cripples their ability to make decisions, the decision is unilateral; one spouse is making the decisions for both of them. In many cases, this is necessary and beneficial for the disabled spouse; the competent partner sees to the best interest of the afflicted one.

In the case cited by Pat Robertson, the competent partner is seeing only to his/her own happiness, but that's wrong because it makes no difference whether the disabled spouse knows what's going on or not; the marriage vows are specific. Yet, here comes our favorite TV minister, telling us when it's okay to break those vows.

Pat Robertson is the man who said that "the acceptance of homosexuality could result in hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, terrorist bombings and 'possibly a meteor.'.....among many other "controversial" statements he's made.

But, because Pat Robertson issued his proclamation giving folks a chance to abandon their disabled spouses, a lot of people will decide they now have permission to do it.

After all, a respected man of God told them it's okay, right?

Ugh.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

I actually responded to this topic on another board, so I'm just going to post my response here. I'd love to debate with people on this topic, and I think my response will seem a little bit different that what some might expect from me. Here's what someone wrote in regards to Robertson's comments:

Have we cleared out all of the Robertson hate?

If so, what Robertson is saying is that divorcing your spouse is preferable to cheating on them.

Here's my response:

I agree. I don't agree with almost all of Robertson's viewpoints, but I think, IF your physical needs were more important to you than staying faithful to an ailing spouse that could no longer satisfy you sexually, the only honorable thing to do would be to divorce them. Although it's a thought I wouldn't be able to fathom if I wasn't of sound mind, on thinking about it now, at this moment, I'd be quite pissed if my wife didn't divorce me but instead took care of me while getting "serviced" by other men. It would seem both patronizing and as if she was only staying with me for the warm, fuzzy feeling caring for another brings and also because she'd have ample ammunition for a pity party whenever she wanted to have one.

 

[Felderino]

Great topic this, enjoyed reading the responses so far. But first of all I need to say something about this comment.

i'd prefer to throw them in jail personally because nothing is more vile than someone who spits on the sanctity of marriage.

Now don't get me wrong, it's a low thing to do to cheat on your spouse. But come on, seriously? You think adultery is worse than raping a child or murder? Wow! That's a warped view in my opinion but hey ho each to their own.

Now I do agree with Robertsons comments. But I'm not religious so it's easier for me to say that than someone who's influenced by their religious beliefs. When someone gets advanced alzheimers it destroys their personality, their not the same person anymore, sure the bodies the same but it's a persons mind that we fall in love with. A marriage is supposed to be an equal partnership, how can it be equal if one person has lost their mind? I do think though that if it's just based on no more sex that is pretty shallow but it's a totally natural reaction and some people are just weaker willed or have higher sex drives than others.

I think there are many reasons to justify divorce. I personally feel marriage is an outdated concept and I would never get married in the first place. But people and relationships are all unique, so a reason one couple decide to get divorced might not apply to another couple who could work through the problem.

If an ill spouse gave me a free pass to sleep with other women I would refuse and stay with them. But that doesn't mean I would look down on someone else that would sleep with other people. Hell some people have happy open marriages! What gives me or anyone else the right to say anything is wrong if it works for a particular couple?

 

[JWGunslinger]

Now don't get me wrong, it's a low thing to do to cheat on your spouse. But come on, seriously? You think adultery is worse than raping a child or murder? Wow! That's a warped view in my opinion but hey ho each to their own.

Not at all, I obviously think that things like rape and murder or way worse but what i'm trying to get across is that although cheating is looked down upon it is somewhat accepted because it's so common these days. I'm saying that cheating is a horrible thing, murder and rape are definitely worse but cheating needs to be viewed as a horrible act as well because it is truely disgusting and vile. It upsets me seeing so many people just play around with marriage like it isn't a lifelong bond that should be respected, you hear about these tons of people who cheat on there spouses so often that it's not uncommon to hear about someone in your neighborhood cheating and that is a sad thing. Adultery can't compare to murder or rape but it should be judged more harshly than it is right now.

 

[Felderino]

Not at all, I obviously think that things like rape and murder or way worse but what i'm trying to get across is that although cheating is looked down upon it is somewhat accepted because it's so common these days. I'm saying that cheating is a horrible thing, murder and rape are definitely worse but cheating needs to be viewed as a horrible act as well because it is truely disgusting and vile. It upsets me seeing so many people just play around with marriage like it isn't a lifelong bond that should be respected, you hear about these tons of people who cheat on there spouses so often that it's not uncommon to hear about someone in your neighborhood cheating and that is a sad thing. Adultery can't compare to murder or rape but it should be judged more harshly than it is right now.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. It just annoys me when people say something is the most evil thing in the world when it clearly isn't.

As for your point I totally agree with you, we should as a society be harsher on people who cheat. Maybe then people could work on their relationships and we wouldn't have so many one parent families, and feral kids walking around who have clearly raised themselves because the parents couldn't give a shit. Also the kid see's one or both parents cheating so they think it's acceptable and are doomed to repeat the mistake so it's just gonna get worse in the future!

 

[Paralyzer Z]

Thoughts on Robertson's comments? Do you agree or disagree?
Unlike, most on here I agree with robertson. He is advicing the spouses to avoid the pain of loosing a love and the self guilt to go along with watching the die. It just the cirlcle of life.


Under what circumstances do you feel it's ok to divorce?
Simply it you do not love them anymore or they abuse you or children of some kind. In life you have the freedom to do whatevever you want and be who you want to be with.

If an ill spouse gave you a free pass to see another man/woman, what would you do?

Boy am I going to get flamed for this!

YES! i would take the pass. It is my life, I share it with no one nor share my glory with no one. I would just go on and live my life on and let them do wahtever they want to survive on their own. Tough love such a beauty and entertaning as well. I likley wouldnt see another person but just merely abandon the bad things that come with loosing a loved one. So they become "formerly loved ones" and i just skip along enjoting my life. AMEN

 

[Dagger Dias]

If you truly love someone, then you will stick to the vows made to them on your wedding day. For better or for worse, in sickness and in health, until death do you part. It doesn't matter if someone is unable to satisfy their spouse's needs due to illness. That is NOT grounds for divorce. The only time that divorce is ever ok is if there has been infidelity, or in some extreme circumstances if abuse has been going on. I would never divorce unless there was infidelity going on and I would say no even if there was a "free pass" at a chance with anyone else because when I got married I chose to never be with anyone else. I don't WANT anyone else. Ever. She is my tag team partner for life. I wish more people shared the respect that I have for the bond and blessing of marriage.

 

[Good Golly It's Ollie]

Interesting. This is why I should stop by the Cigar Lounge more often. Really conflicting, this one. Nice challenge LSN.

Thoughts on Robertson's comments? Do you agree or disagree?
Well, I think I can understand where he's coming from. But he's looking at it in very black-and-white terms. I see what he means if someone can longer remember you, that hurts and it's tough. Not that I'd know from personal experience but I can sympathise much the same as anyone else. But what he says, for me, boils down to this. "This person has forgotten you; it'll be too hard to cope with - might as well leave 'em".

Now I can understand that mentality - but it's very subjective and very one-sided. Memories can be forgotten but you can't completely erase instinct. The patient would, I bet, still feel some remote form of loss even if they couldn't understand why. As for the carer/spouse, well, just because they've forgotten you doesn't mean that you forget them. Memory is a two-way street and there is always more than one perspective.

In a weird way Robertson is actually being considerate to both sides of the situation, but he does so in such a point-blank kind of way that it seems to be it would be jilting the intention of looking after someone you love.

Under what circumstances do you feel it's ok to divorce?
If it gets too much for you and you want out, it's your prerogative. I could understand if you felt too strained. I wouldn't judge.

If an ill spouse gave you a free pass to see another man/woman, what would you do?
Really, really tough one. A really arrogant part of me likes to think I could immediately turn down such an offer ... but a weaker part of me might accept. I guess I'd have to actually be in the situation to know. Obviously my viewpoint isn't as valid as people who do have spouses and people like Dagger and LSN who have a better appreciation of this than I do ... I haven't known that kind of love yet.

Alzheimer's is definitely the kind of thing I'd consider donating money to research, so we could understand more about it, and all forms of dementia. My grandma didn't exactly have Alzheimer's but she did reach a point where she didn't even recognise my dad really anymore, at least as far as we could tell, and I'm ashamed to admit I bottled it and tried to avoid spending time with her. I was 14 and didn't really know how to handle the emotional complexity of this. Was it fair to her that I chose to avoid the situation? I don't think so. My grandparents always invested such a lot of interest in me before these things happen that I now feel very guilty about it, but on the other hand nothing I could say or do seemed to get through to her in the last year or so.

 

[LSN80]

Sorry Tdigs, I know I told you Id get back to you Sunday.

Have we cleared out all of the Robertson hate?

If so, what Robertson is saying is that divorcing your spouse is preferable to cheating on them.

Here's my response:

I agree. I don't agree with almost all of Robertson's viewpoints, but I think, IF your physical needs were more important to you than staying faithful to an ailing spouse that could no longer satisfy you sexually, the only honorable thing to do would be to divorce them.

This is spoken in hypotheticals- SO it's hard to argue in some ways. But is divorce preferable to having an affair, and more honorable? Essentially, what Im seeing is a technicality- One that frees you to do as you please because one no longer has the guilt of having an "affair." But the intent is no different, so where's the honor there? In both cases, it's someone who's willing to throw away the marriage vows, incudng those of "Til Death Do Us Part", because of selfishness. It gives the greenlight to cheat and divorce for other reasons- lost interest in sex by one spouse, for example.
Yet those people would be villified by Robertson and his camp. It's also indicative of the malaise we have not only in our country but worldwide- "They're not everything i thought they were or expected them to be at all times, so I have an out. But divorce is looked upon more favorably then an affair, so Ill go with that option instead."

Although it's a thought I wouldn't be able to fathom if I wasn't of sound mind, on thinking about it now, at this moment, I'd be quite pissed if my wife didn't divorce me but instead took care of me while getting "serviced" by other men.

I understand the patronizing reasoning you give below, it makes sense in theory. As much as I hate divorce, I wouldnt want my wife sticking around for any reason if she was going to cheat while I was of sound mind. But the issue here is you wouldnt be of sound mind. I'm not saying one is better then the other, they're both wrong, me thinks. But you wouldn't be aware enough or of sound mind to enable yourself to get pissed at your wife.
If it came to down to two lousy choices of having my wife cheating on me but stll by my side(the last past being all I my know, honestly) then leaving altogether, Id choose the former. I have strong moral issues with both, but Id still want my loved one by side.

It would seem both patronizing and as if she was only staying with me for the warm, fuzzy feeling caring for another brings and also because she'd have ample ammunition for a pity party whenever she wanted to have one.

That's one side of it, sure. Id hate for my wife to benefit in any way from my illness if she was caring for me by day and screwing other men by night. But the comfort level that comes with having one's closest loved one by their side- regardless of intention- is one that can't be understated.

I disliked my dad's mom growing up immensely. But she was inflicted with Alzheimers at 65- 10 years before she died. She often referred to me as "Emily" or "Greg"- two of my cousin's names. She didnt truly know who the hell I was, but damn did it bring a smile to her face if I just sat with her for fifteen minutes. She became a different person when she was stricken with Alzheimer's, a kind , loving one. Id be lying if I said there wasnt still a dislike for her from the first 20 years of life of her being a terrible person. But she drew a great comfort just from having someone sitting with her and holding her hand. She may not have known my name, but she knew who I was. Id like to think that even if my spouse was selfish enough to cheat on me if I got Alzheimer's, she'ld still be around to bring that smile and feeling of warmth to me, regardless of whether who I thought she was by name.

Neither is honorable, and Im not condoning either. Affairs and divorce for the reason of sexual gratification are despicable in my eyes-irregardless of the situation.(Except for the situations I listed in my earlier post) But I sure as hell would want the person who has been beside me for decades there during my last years, regardless of what she was doing behind my back.