WCW Boston, Round 2, Match 1: #4 John Cena vs. #29 Verne Gagne
- Thread starter Shocky
- Start date
- Status
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Gagne may be one of the most stubborn people in the history of the business. Cena may be aggrivating, but he never kept the title off of Hulk Hogan or put his horrible son in main event storylines. Gagne owned the AWA and he hurt it more than he helped it. Cena is the current king of wrestling and that's good enough to pick up a win here.
Cena is on top of the business today because he is one of the most charismatic people ever to grace the sport. He has beaten everyone in his generation decisively and became the first person in professional wrestling since Hulk Hogan in WCW in 1994 to hold a championship for over a year and the first to do it in WWE since Randy Savage in 1988. This is a testament to Cena's abilities. People can snide all they want at Cena, but the fact remains that he beats just about everyone at the first time of asking.
Gagne was the guy who wasn't good enough to cut it against the real big names of the time so he made his own promotion. When people discuss the greats of the era, Gagne is only thought of as promoter, and he did not beat the huge names of the time. Cena would overpower Gagne and win here.
Gagne was the guy who wasn't good enough to cut it against the real big names of the time so he made his own promotion. When people discuss the greats of the era, Gagne is only thought of as promoter, and he did not beat the huge names of the time. Cena would overpower Gagne and win here.
Cena is a great guy, as is half as good as a wreslter. People says he only does five moves and thats why he isn't good enough but think about it; what did any of the greats do apart from their 5 moves? HBK did a superkick, the flying elbow, the atomic drop and the flying forearm. Goldberg did the spear, Jackhammer, Sidewalk slam, maul kick and just another random move. People just try and find a excuse to hate Cena because everybody else does. Cena is the "boss" of the WWE now and should take this one easy.
While I can't help but agree with you, and KB, I can't wait to see what Gelgarin says to this. I know his guy is Thesz, but this is the ultimate match-up of new v. old school.
I'm leaning towards voting Cena, but I may be swayed into voting the other way around.
Sorry to disappoint, but unfortunately I simply don't have the knowledge to argue this one. Gagne was an amazing talent and I'll do my best for him, but I don't think I'll be able to win anybody over.
Gagne is a legend of the industry and was not only a WWE, WCW, PWI and WON hall of famer (only man ever to complete the set I believe) he was also inducted into the Cauliflower Ally Club (just about the highest honor that can be bestowed upon an old school star), and even more impressively, he received the Lou Thesz award from said organization.
I know just enough to tell you that, like with many legends of the industry, that shit fest of a Wikipedia page is doing him a great disservice. If you've read it and are now going to proclaim that Gagne lacked talent and had to book himself to the top, then I'm going to bitch slap you now, because that's simply not true.
I don't have much on Gagne, but I do have this rather interesting quote.
Know who was saying that? Well it's me posting, so I'd imagine that you can hazard a guess. That's right, it's Lou Thesz. I'm quite an authority on things Lou Thesz has said, and do you know how many people I've seen him bestow that level of praise on? Answer: about four.
If Lou Thesz thinks that you're one of the best in the world, then I'm prepared to accept it on trust. In fact, from what I've heard, it would be perfectly possible to make the case that Gagne was a better technical wrestler than Lou Thesz. Think about that statement for a moment, then consider who it is saying it, and you should arrive at a conclusion as to exactly how good Gagne was in the ring.
Alas, once you get to a certain level of skill, it all becomes irrelevant, especially when you're up against a modern day talent like John Cena. Nobody here could keep a straight face and claim that John Cena has better technical or amateur skills than Gagne, but then the same holds true for almost all the other talent from that time period.
Some credence should be given to Gagne's mastery of leverage. Technical prowess can occasionally be countered by physical strength, and a superman like Cena can prove terribly difficult to ground or to put in a submission simply due to their ability to power out. Gagne's style will easily grand him the ability to ground Cena (he was able to take down the 330lb Giant Baba easily enough) and from that point on he shouldn't have too difficult a time of it.
But now, now we get onto the one area of Gagne's career that I know a little something about. The one man crusade (with occasional appearances from Lou Thesz). After stepping down as a wrestler, Gagne noticed the trend of scientific wrestling dying out, and essentially started a quest to keep technical wrestling alive in the industry. The primary result of this quest, Gagne trained, or played a part in the training of the following superstars.
Ric Flair
Ricky Steamboat
Curt Henning
Bob Backlund
Ole Anderson
And many, many more. Wikipeida lists it as 93. Meltzar said over 100. Thesz said that he lost count. But anyway, look at that list of names, and then look at the list of names who said that they got into the industry because of those names. It's really not a stretch to claim that, without Gagne, scientific wrestling might have died out once and for all in the US, and it's undeniable that without his one man crusade, we would certainly have been deprived of some of the greatest ring workers of all time. Lou Thesz shaped the industry. Hogan shaped the product. And Verne Gagne shaped the talent.
It occurs to me that, for somebody who's only ever watched one Gagne match in his life, I've ended up producing a pretty lengthy post. I was going to vote Cena, but I think I've ended up buying into my own hype. Gagne is simply too good, and too experienced for the relatively new John Cena to cope. Cena is a modern day superhero, but every superhero has his weakness, and Gagnes technical artistry is like kryptonite to Cenas raw power. Im not going to rag on anybody for voting for the modern guy (Im saving up my wrath for idiots who vote Sting in round three) but itd be nice if we could get a decent showing for a truly unappreciated gem of the industry.
I think this match more than any other has got me loving the tournament, as its got me looking harder at a name a didnt truly appreciate the value of. I think Ive managed to produced what Michael Cole would describe as a vintage Gelgarin post, and if one of you bastards doesnt rep me for it then a pox upon your house.
In case you didnt cotton on, Im just trying to drag this post out to 1000 words for the look of the thing. Doesnt seem like its going to happen, so Ill settle for nine hundred and seventy six.
Vote Gagne.
Gagne is a legend of the industry and was not only a WWE, WCW, PWI and WON hall of famer (only man ever to complete the set I believe) he was also inducted into the Cauliflower Ally Club (just about the highest honor that can be bestowed upon an old school star), and even more impressively, he received the Lou Thesz award from said organization.
I know just enough to tell you that, like with many legends of the industry, that shit fest of a Wikipedia page is doing him a great disservice. If you've read it and are now going to proclaim that Gagne lacked talent and had to book himself to the top, then I'm going to bitch slap you now, because that's simply not true.
I don't have much on Gagne, but I do have this rather interesting quote.
Know who was saying that? Well it's me posting, so I'd imagine that you can hazard a guess. That's right, it's Lou Thesz. I'm quite an authority on things Lou Thesz has said, and do you know how many people I've seen him bestow that level of praise on? Answer: about four.
If Lou Thesz thinks that you're one of the best in the world, then I'm prepared to accept it on trust. In fact, from what I've heard, it would be perfectly possible to make the case that Gagne was a better technical wrestler than Lou Thesz. Think about that statement for a moment, then consider who it is saying it, and you should arrive at a conclusion as to exactly how good Gagne was in the ring.
Alas, once you get to a certain level of skill, it all becomes irrelevant, especially when you're up against a modern day talent like John Cena. Nobody here could keep a straight face and claim that John Cena has better technical or amateur skills than Gagne, but then the same holds true for almost all the other talent from that time period.
Some credence should be given to Gagne's mastery of leverage. Technical prowess can occasionally be countered by physical strength, and a superman like Cena can prove terribly difficult to ground or to put in a submission simply due to their ability to power out. Gagne's style will easily grand him the ability to ground Cena (he was able to take down the 330lb Giant Baba easily enough) and from that point on he shouldn't have too difficult a time of it.
But now, now we get onto the one area of Gagne's career that I know a little something about. The one man crusade (with occasional appearances from Lou Thesz). After stepping down as a wrestler, Gagne noticed the trend of scientific wrestling dying out, and essentially started a quest to keep technical wrestling alive in the industry. The primary result of this quest, Gagne trained, or played a part in the training of the following superstars.
Ric Flair
Ricky Steamboat
Curt Henning
Bob Backlund
Ole Anderson
And many, many more. Wikipeida lists it as 93. Meltzar said over 100. Thesz said that he lost count. But anyway, look at that list of names, and then look at the list of names who said that they got into the industry because of those names. It's really not a stretch to claim that, without Gagne, scientific wrestling might have died out once and for all in the US, and it's undeniable that without his one man crusade, we would certainly have been deprived of some of the greatest ring workers of all time. Lou Thesz shaped the industry. Hogan shaped the product. And Verne Gagne shaped the talent.
It occurs to me that, for somebody who's only ever watched one Gagne match in his life, I've ended up producing a pretty lengthy post. I was going to vote Cena, but I think I've ended up buying into my own hype. Gagne is simply too good, and too experienced for the relatively new John Cena to cope. Cena is a modern day superhero, but every superhero has his weakness, and Gagnes technical artistry is like kryptonite to Cenas raw power. Im not going to rag on anybody for voting for the modern guy (Im saving up my wrath for idiots who vote Sting in round three) but itd be nice if we could get a decent showing for a truly unappreciated gem of the industry.
I think this match more than any other has got me loving the tournament, as its got me looking harder at a name a didnt truly appreciate the value of. I think Ive managed to produced what Michael Cole would describe as a vintage Gelgarin post, and if one of you bastards doesnt rep me for it then a pox upon your house.
In case you didnt cotton on, Im just trying to drag this post out to 1000 words for the look of the thing. Doesnt seem like its going to happen, so Ill settle for nine hundred and seventy six.
Vote Gagne.
It's...Baylariat!
Team Finnley Baylor
I was going to Vote for Cena, until I seen Gelgarin's post. To be honest, Gagne may have been an ego maniac, but he's also a legend who trained some of the greatest wrestlers in history. Cena's charasmatic and the star of today, so he'll pick up the win, but Gagne is better than Cena as a wrestler.
I vote Gagne.
I vote Gagne.
If you mean he is a better technical wrestler, then that means jack in a match up. Being a brawler is a perfectly acceptable form of wrestling. Cena can batter him to death. He doesn't need fancy submission holds or suplexes, he can wear down an opponent before adjusting their attitude of making them tap.
If you mean a better pro wrestler, you're wrong. Cena is reaching superstardom levels match only by Hogan and Austin.
There is no way Cena loses this, no matter how good and insightful Gelgarin's post actually was.
So, someone writes a bunch of words, half of which are about a guy not even in the match up, and you just swing to the other side? Kind of silly don't you think?
So being a trainer is now what makes someone a great wrestler? I must be a great basketball player then, because I helped develop two All-State basketball players as an assistant coach.
That's a goofy assertion. Training someone is not equal to being great yourself.
What are you basing this on? Because he worked a more technical in-ring style. Let's use basketball as an example again.
Bruce Bowen, of the San Antonio Spurs, is a career .393 3pt percentage shooter. Michael Jordan was a career .327 3pt percentage shooter. Is Bruce Bowen a better basketball player than Michael Jordan, because there is one area of the game that he rates higher? If you know NOTHING about basketball, you should know that Jordan is the best player to ever play the game, and to say Bowen is a better player because of one aspect of the game, is ludicrous.
So it goes here. Verne worked a technical style. Great. That has nothing to do with how good he was as a wrestler. Over the last several years, how many classics have we witnessed from John Cena? How many different opponents? How many varying styles? We've seen Cena take on big men and little men, technical workers and brawlers, stiff worker and lightweight workers, good wrestlers and poor wrestlers, and has made his bout with each of them as entertaining as it could possibly be.
Cena's versatility is amazing. It's incredible how he is able to work so well with such a variety of workers and styles, and do it all believably and wonderfully. It's a testament to his incredible skill that he can work the offense or do the selling, and the match will still be entertaining.
How many people can say the same thing for Verne Gagne?
What if I just start typing random words that mean nothing, while spending the majority of those words talking about Sgt. Buddy Lee Parker? Will you vote for him then?
Use his body better than Cena? How is that exactly? How will he use his body better? How will that translate into a win.
Gagne maybe be stubborn due to him not giving the title to one of his top draws in Hulk Hogan & Cena just annoys me with the corny crap that comes out of his mouth. I will say that Cena's brawling style will beat Gagne's technical style when Cena hits Gagne with the FU(I ain't calling it the AA or whatever the hell it's called).
justinsayne
Cody Rhodes is an excellant
If Gagne is able to to get an early advantage and tie Cena up in knots he may be able to wear Cena down enough to do some serious damage, and keep in mind Cena is just coming out a a match with another submission expert in Danielson, so I would expect him to still being feeling the effects of that match a little bit aswell, of course saying all this I fully expect Gagne to attempt to lock in a submission only for Cena to somehow counter it and get Gagne up on his shoulders and hit him with the AA or FU or whatever the fuck you want to call it, and then pick up the win, Cen will win this match but it won't be a squash by any means
No, he's not, reaching superstardom levels of Rock or Flair, yeah, but he's not close to Hogan and Austin levels of superstadom yetI thought only the final round was when wear and tear was counted due to them being on the same day? I may be wrong, but if so the arguement about his past match means nowt. He's had well over a week to recover.
I never said it would be a squash. Cena doesn't generally have squashes anyway. Cena has a history of taking a beating but coming back to win, and I'm glad we are both agreed this will happen here.
If you look at merchandise sold I bet Cena isn't far off the two, which is related to superstardom. He probably has more mainstream exposure than Austin did at the same time in his career, but obviously not Hogan.
Overall no he is not at their level, but I believe he is not as far off as most people think. Like it or not, when Cena's career finishes he will be mentioned up there with the very best.
Jack-Hammer
YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
Verne was a great technical wrestler, that's all well and good. I've heard people in the past go on and on about how Gagne is a 10 time AWA World Heavyweight Champion, but that means less than nothing to me. Gagne owned the AWA, he made himself champion for as long and as many times as he wanted. I know that Gagne was respected in a number of NWA territories during the 1950s and that was really the time when Gagne's skills and abilities can be taken into account rather than after he made his own company.
Cena's strength is too much for Gagne to overcome. And, in this match, Gagne isn't in an AWA ring. Gagne can't call the shots here, so there's no way he takes this.
Cena's strength is too much for Gagne to overcome. And, in this match, Gagne isn't in an AWA ring. Gagne can't call the shots here, so there's no way he takes this.
Shadowmancer
I am The Last Baron
Im going to be voting for the self-promoting old bastard here. Cena would have been worn down and stretched by Danielson in the first round, and while this would be theoretically the next week, the injuries and wear and tear on the body would still be there. As for Cena being up there in terms of Hogan and Austin, nowhere near, he isn't even in the same league as Rock and Flair, try the next rung or two down on that ladder, thats not saying that he isn't good, but people are overrating him severely now.
Again we need to take into consideration that the majority of Cena's wrestling moveset comes from running the ropes, not his fault as such because well he is a WWE wrestler, the cables will not be forgiving for Cena's style of wrestling. Gagne has the experience advantage over Cena.
Again we need to take into consideration that the majority of Cena's wrestling moveset comes from running the ropes, not his fault as such because well he is a WWE wrestler, the cables will not be forgiving for Cena's style of wrestling. Gagne has the experience advantage over Cena.
Cena should take this. Don't get me wrong I have done my research on Gagne, and I see no reason for him to beat Cena. Gagne was best as a promoter and is up against, whether you like it or not, the present and the future of the WWE an professional wrestling itself.
using the Danielson argument is pretty stupid. Cena dominated that match and the votes showed, it was more or less a squash match. Cena would over power Gagne and win this match with an AA or the STFU. Hopefully it is the STFU so he can break him into two. Cena has dominated the last several years and he has beaten some of the best. Therefore, based on Cena's accomplishments, shear strength to over power Gagne...
Cena FTW.
Cena FTW.
Cena's Little Helper
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Verne Gagne...what can I say about the man? He could be exciting to watch in the ring from time to time, and, he is arguably the greatest American professional wrestling trainer of all time. But, I can't overlook the fact that he continually booked himself in the AWA's main-event when he shouldn't have been there. Furthermore, I would argue that Gagne wouldn't have been well-received in WCW. He was a solid technical wrestler with little charisma, and this wouldn't bode well for Gagne in WCW, an organization that was always full of both excellent technicians and very charismatic performers.
Thus, I see Cena taking this one, as his charisma would have gotten him over Gagne had they ever wrestled in WCW.
Pick: Cena
Thus, I see Cena taking this one, as his charisma would have gotten him over Gagne had they ever wrestled in WCW.
Pick: Cena
For as much shit as I give Triple H, he's not the guy that actually decides whom the champion is. Verne Gagne was that man. Kayfabe wise or not, the guy self booked himself to 12 championships, thus making the AWA title completley worthless in my eyes. The guy was so self absorbed that he booked his talentless son into the title role after he was done. That would be like Vince booking himself as a twelve time champion, and then ultimately his son Shane as WWE champion. It's ridiculous.
John Cena would snap Verne Gagne in half. It's really as simple as that. Cena out powers him, Cena is probalby just as quick, and I daresay that Cena has just as much stamina as Gagne. Gagne's career can never be properly known, because he was the man in charge of the booking. Could Gagne succeed elsewhere, who knows, could Cena, you bet your ass.
John Cena would snap Verne Gagne in half. It's really as simple as that. Cena out powers him, Cena is probalby just as quick, and I daresay that Cena has just as much stamina as Gagne. Gagne's career can never be properly known, because he was the man in charge of the booking. Could Gagne succeed elsewhere, who knows, could Cena, you bet your ass.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Poll