WCW Region, Third Round, Ladder Match: (5) Andre the Giant vs. (13) Goldberg

[klunderbunker]

This is a third round match in the WCW Region. It is a ladder match. It will be held at Time Warner Cable Arena in Charlotte, North Carolina. Assume one week has passed since the second round match.

Ladder Match Rules: There will be a case hanging above the ring. The first man to climb a ladder and pull it down wins.

#5. Andre the Giant

Vs.

#13. Goldberg

​

Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[PsychoBlack]

As athletic as Andre was in his prime he was no where near Goldberg in that category, however, climbing a ladder is not an athletic task. I'm having a hard time with this one because if anybody can keep Andre down long enough to climb a ladder and take down a briefcase it's Goldberg. At the same time Andre could certainly find a way to keep Goldberg down to do this task.

I'm gonna have to go with Goldberg because I've seen him throw some of the biggest guys in the business around like they were baby dolls.

 

[Danger Burger]

Oh god, haha, its actually happened again. Andre V Ladders in the WZT, this is gna be great. There is an immense history here.

First things first, Andre cannot climb ladders. Physically impossible. The mans girth emits too much down force. He creates extra gravity as he leaves the ground. And WCW only ever supplied ladders made of crackers.... and scene.

Two great imaginary winning streaks go head to head in this one. Both guys have beaten Hogan. Both guys are strong as hell. Goldberg has a speed advantage and has picked up some pretty big dudes in the past. Region gives him a slight advantage too.

Hell, I don't have a fucking clue what I'm talking about. But I'm leaning towards goldy locks. Somebody help me.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Andre in his prime was quite capable of climbing a ladder. I do understand, in some sense, where people have the idea that he couldn't. After all, for many people, the only version of Andre they've seen is when the guy had gone downhill physically and could barely move.

However, in the 60s and the 70s, Andre was a very big, athletic guy. Andre was someone tailor made for the territory days. He'd pop up in most of the major areas & promotions a few times a year, draw a big crowd, collect a big payday and would be off again until another 8 or 12 months down the road. A potential downside to Andre really is that he accomplished relatively little in his career when it comes to championships. Nobody ever put a singles title on Andre because most promoters didn't believe anyone could realistically beat him for the title. Andre held a few tag titles in his career, which made it easier as his partner would be the one to take the fall when the time came to drop the title. There was that whole bit with the WWF Championship in early '88 but he only held the title for a minute or so before "giving it" to Ted DiBiase.

I was never a big fan of Goldberg but he was a dominant force in wrestling for the handful of years he competed.

In terms of star power, Andre is all over Goldberg. Andre was also the stronger of the two while Goldberg was the more athletic overall. In a situation like a ladder match where pretty much anything goes, Goldberg would be able to give Andre a run for his money. I could honestly see this going either way. Andre, while great, is known more for being a great attraction more than anything else while Goldberg was someone who regularly went against & defeated the top guys in WCW.

 

[Thriller Ant]

As athletic as Andre was in his prime he was no where near Goldberg in that category, however, climbing a ladder is not an athletic task. I'm having a hard time with this one because if anybody can keep Andre down long enough to climb a ladder and take down a briefcase it's Goldberg. At the same time Andre could certainly find a way to keep Goldberg down to do this task.

I'm gonna have to go with Goldberg because I've seen him throw some of the biggest guys in the business around like they were baby dolls.

Andre would have a much easier time throwing Goldberg around, and Andre wouldn't need to climb up nearly as high on the ladder as Goldberg would. I'm leaning towards Andre in his prime being able to keep Goldberg down long enough to climb 4 rungs of the ladder and pull down the case.

 

[Bernkastel]

What the fuck is this shit? Seriously, Andre draws the ladder match again? At least he's not up against Rey Mysterio, Edge, Cena, or CM Punk... again. That being said, Andre certainly isn't Big Show... even Goldberg wouldn't have been booked to go over Andre like that... even if the bookers had smoked a bunch of PCP right before making the match. Andre had the mysticism that Show never had, and the match would have been booked as Golderg's greatest test ever. Since both superstars were primarily faces during their primes - and Goldberg lost face vs face matches to Bret Hart - how could he defeat Andre during the peak of his popularity?

The ladder argument, while ridiculous, doesn't really matter here. Both of these guys were powerhouses, and neither were really known for asinine high risk maneuvers. The point being that Goldberg can't climb the ladder any faster or slower than Andre could. These two are going to brawl, someone is going to get knocked the fuck out, and the winner is going to climb the ladder and win. Pretty simple.

Based on the fact that Andre was likely a better quality draw in his prime - Goldberg was champ when WWE was making it's comeback under Austin - and that Goldberg lost face vs face matches against Hart... wasn't Andre just as big of a star as Bret, if not bigger? I'd could easily see him moving past Goldberg here.

 

[deem]

Hahahaha brilliant, so happy that Andre got the ladder match just for the controversy. I'm excited about this thread.

No idea which way I'm voting here, just kicking off with a couple of points.

a) Goldberg is brilliant against big guys. Absolutely brilliant.
b) Andre is much more athletic than people perceive him to be
c) BOTH were attractions for the majority of their careers - Goldberg also became a champion in his organisation. I understand the reasons for Andre not doing that, so I don't hold it against him. In Kayfabe though, that works for Goldberg. He's probably beaten more big names than Andre, simply because he didn't get a chance to feud with most of them.

I think I'll probably be on the side of Goldberg here, since no one in history has been better suited to dominating Andre the Giant imo. Definitely not selling the big guy short though so I'm waiting a long way into the debate. Which is annoying, because I'm sure the people that say to vote Andre will be the more influential and knowledgeable about wrestling, be they right or wrong for their decision here.

 

[Loveless]

This is rather problematic for me because I don't want to vote Goldberg but I can't see any other result.

Younger Andre can climbs ladders, but he's also lighter and not quite the immovable object he was in later life. This makes him more vulnerable to 'bergs power.
In contrast, older Andre is much more difficult to overpower and I think a bit too much for Goldberg, but he can't climb the fookin' ladder.
I'm willing to hold off voting and listen to arguments here.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

It's Friday evening, Goldberg is too preoccupied recognizing the Sabbath in order to fight with Andre. Andre wins and Shalom to you too.

Seriously, this is the problem with the prime argument. If we are talking prime, Goldberg deserves to win every mmatch against anyone ever. He was unstoppable and made fools of his opponents. But ultimately his legacy is that of a short term draw that was too stupid to realize that even former football players can't punch through car windshields without getting cut.

Andre uses his power, speed, and a LADDER AS A WEAPON to knock out the guy who leads with his head instead of his eyes. He climbs the ladder and grabs the case. The case happens to be a case of beer which Andre drinks entirely on his walk up the ramp.

 

[steve_smith]

Andre's period of dominance happened for over a decade. He was booked as unbeatable for his ENTIRE prime. Goldberg's run is only a small fraction of what Andre's is.

Andre the Giant was a bigger name, bigger draw, had worldwide recognition, and was also the #1 guy in wrestling ($$$$ wise) for a period of time.

They actually couldn't put the title on this beast because there was no logical way of getting it off of him. Back when it wasn't officially fake, nobody could logically believe that anyone could beat Andre the Giant.

Andre knocks Goldberg out cold and soon after climbs the ladder for the win.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

If Big Show can climb a ladder, than Andre can do the same as well. There will probably the eventual "the ladder would break under his weight" argument. If they can have a special ladder for Show, they'll have one for Andre. Goldberg was a dominant force in 1998. Other years, not so much.

Going with Andre.

 

[deem]

If Big Show can climb a ladder, than Andre can do the same as well. There will probably the eventual "the ladder would break under his weight" argument. If they can have a special ladder for Show, they'll have one for Andre. Goldberg was a dominant force in 1998. Other years, not so much.

Going with Andre.

Just for the record - Big Show has only had three ladder matches in his career - lost the only one-on-one he had to RVD, while losing in MitB twice. Goldberg's had two - beating Razor Ramon one-on-one, losing the fatal fourway.

I'd use the "if Big Show can climb a ladder" argument strongly against Andre. The slightly smaller big men like Kane and The Undertaker have had enough success to still give Andre a shot, but Big Show has never achieved a thing in one.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

If Big Show can climb a ladder, than Andre can do the same as well. There will probably the eventual "the ladder would break under his weight" argument. If they can have a special ladder for Show, they'll have one for Andre. Goldberg was a dominant force in 1998. Other years, not so much.

Going with Andre.

And by that alone Goldberg wins. This is just such a Goldberg-fodder match to me. Ok, confession-time: His bouts have always kinda been a guilty pleasure of mine. Sure sometimes his no-selling would make me throw my hands up and go 'oh what's the point!', but that man was a wrecking machine like no other. And good god he threw some big men around with ease.

Putting Goldberg in with a super-heavyweight just seems like a spectacle to see him jack-hammer them. The build-up of 'can he lift the big man up' alone will put butts in seats, and the man was crazy and I mean CRAZY agile.

Goldberg for me. And fuck's sake saying Andre can't climb a ladder is so 2010.

 

[Con T.]

Putting Goldberg in with a super-heavyweight just seems like a spectacle to see him jack-hammer them.

There's a problem with this theory; Andre wouldn't go up for you if he knew you didn't respect the business. Andre's run off plenty of guys from promotions; John Studd, Bam Bam, Bad News Brown. Even Hogan admits that if Andre didn't want to go up for the big body slam, he wouldn't have.

The biggest thing Andre didn't like? If a wrestler didn't have respect for the business, he made your life a living hell.

Goldberg? Let's just say he isn't a lifer. And before anyone talks about how this shouldn't affect the match, trust me, it does. When Andre didn't like you, not only was he not going to work for you, he's going to bludgeon.

The only thing Goldberg has against Andre is that he's really strong. And if Andre is being uncooperative, like I would bet he would be, Goldberg is gonna be in for a looooong night.


So yeah, Andre

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

There's a problem with this theory; Andre wouldn't go up for you if he knew you didn't respect the business. Andre's run off plenty of guys from promotions; John Studd, Bam Bam, Bad News Brown. Even Hogan admits that if Andre didn't want to go up for the big body slam, he wouldn't have.

The biggest thing Andre didn't like? If a wrestler didn't have respect for the business, he made your life a living hell.

Goldberg? Let's just say he isn't a lifer. And before anyone talks about how this shouldn't affect the match, trust me, it does. When Andre didn't like you, not only was he not going to work for you, he's going to bludgeon.

The only thing Goldberg has against Andre is that he's really strong. And if Andre is being uncooperative, like I would bet he would be, Goldberg is gonna be in for a looooong night.


So yeah, Andre

Uh, this didn't prevent Andre from losing to Ultimate Warrior pretty much every night for over a year. Just because he makes your life hell doesn't mean that you don't win. And this is about a win.

So, pretty much ignore the quoted argument.

 

[Con T.]

Uh, this didn't prevent Andre from losing to Ultimate Warrior pretty much every night for over a year. Just because he makes your life hell doesn't mean that you don't win. And this is about a win.

So, pretty much ignore the quoted argument.

It was an Andre way past his prime, way too old and bitter to care. The reason these matches were so short was because of how much he despised Warrior.

I'd certainly believe Goldberg could do this to a passionless Andre. But, with an Andre in his prime? The Jackhammer is a move that needs far more support than the body slam. And I can't see Goldberg getting him up, if Andre doesn't cooperate

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

It was an Andre way past his prime, way too old and bitter to care. The reason these matches were so short was because of how much he despised Warrior.

I'd certainly believe Goldberg could do this to a passionless Andre. But, with an Andre in his prime? The Jackhammer is a move that needs far more support than the body slam. And I can't see Goldberg getting him up, if Andre doesn't cooperate

And an Andre in his prime vs. Goldberg in his prime loses. Goldberg in his prime didn't lose. To anyone.

You are making a great case for Goldberg, here.

 

[Con T.]

And an Andre in his prime vs. Goldberg in his prime loses. Goldberg in his prime didn't lose. To anyone.

You are making a great case for Goldberg, here.

What you're saying here is that Goldberg should win this tournament, because Goldberg never lost?

Of course, he did wind up losing, but that's neither here nor there. Goldberg's streak is padded with a random assortment of jobbers and the like. Hell, it isn't even a legitimate number.

If you're really going to sit here and tell me that because Goldberg never lost for a year, that he'll go over here, then he might as well go over everyone.

Oh, and while we're at it, Andre went undefeated for ten years

 

[HBsam31]

I argued for Goldberg in the last round for the reason of him being unstoppable in his prime, and not believing Gagne could hurt him. In this round however I feel that Andre is one man that can take Goldberg out here. Andre could easily climb a ladder in his prime, and I think he is a guy that could beat Goldberg down. Andre was undefeated long before Goldberg came around. This would be a brutal match with both using the ladder as a weapon with Andre outlasting Goldberg.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

There's a problem with this theory; Andre wouldn't go up for you if he knew you didn't respect the business. Andre's run off plenty of guys from promotions; John Studd, Bam Bam, Bad News Brown. Even Hogan admits that if Andre didn't want to go up for the big body slam, he wouldn't have.

The biggest thing Andre didn't like? If a wrestler didn't have respect for the business, he made your life a living hell.

Goldberg? Let's just say he isn't a lifer. And before anyone talks about how this shouldn't affect the match, trust me, it does. When Andre didn't like you, not only was he not going to work for you, he's going to bludgeon.

The only thing Goldberg has against Andre is that he's really strong. And if Andre is being uncooperative, like I would bet he would be, Goldberg is gonna be in for a looooong night.


So yeah, Andre

Really? So after years of rebuttals in this tourney, we've finally run out and are bringing the 'he didn't respect the business' card to the party?

You know what, fuck that! And I have been waiting a long time to say this, most of the fucking veterans use the 'he hasn't paid his dues' bitching to cling on to their spot and not secede. They fuckin' abuse whilst "training" the young wrestlers. And take complete liberty when someone gives their body upto them. In a real shoot, most young ones might whoop those trainers a new asshole (Apologies to Waltman).

Is wrestling tough? Sure it is. Every sport is. But over the years all that's happened is some of these motherfucking washed up vets see someone who is physically more appealing and they wanna fuck his shit up. Discourage him and say 'oh he didn't have it'. I applaud every Warrior who stood up to a Bill Watts, every HBK who called The Hogans of these worlds dinosaurs.


Now back to Andre; His name escapes me, the Japanese guy who almost kicked Andre's knees to a oblivion. Goldberg has no problem going over Andre as Andre's size just makes him another spectacular jackhammer. I have tons of respect for Andre, but honestly Goldberg here.

 

[cult_of_icecream_bar]

Here we go again,get ready for the Andre can't climb the ladder shit.Goldberg doesn't win here.Andre was one of the biggest draws in the 70's.He never won the title because no one could take the title of him.That's how dominant he was.He could bend people who were close to the size of Goldberg like pretzels.And Goldberg isn't some great ladder match specialist.So don't use he'll climb up the ladder and Andre will just stand watching shit.

 

[deem]

Yeh, I wanna echo the "Andre wouldn't put over Goldberg" argument as bullshit. Any lack of commitment from Goldberg to the industry hasn't been exposed if this is prime Bill. Sure he was pushed to the moon and hadn't earned it, same as Warrior. Andre was washed up yeah, but I don't see anyone else other than Hogan excelling against him in that era. I think that holds up quite well as a comparison.

Ok look - this is Bill Goldberg vs big wrestlers. THE GUY IS THE BEST OF ALL TIME AGAINST THEM, in or out of kayfabe. I know Andre is arguably the best of this list, but LOOK at these results.

Vs The Giant - 22 wins and zero defeats
Vs Bam Bam Bigelow - 12 wins, 1 draw, zero defeats
Vs Kane - 4 wins, 1 draw, zero defeats
Vs Mark Henry - 1 win, 0 defeats
Vs Batista - 1 win, 0 defeatss
Vs Hulk Hogan - 1 win, 0 defeats
Vs Tank Abbott - 2 wins, 0 defeats
Vs Big Bossman - 1 win, 0 defeats
Vs Brock Lesnar - 1 win, 0 defeats
Vs Roadblock - 1 win, 0 defeats
Vs Kevin Nash - 5 wins, 1 draw, 1 defeat
Vs Scott Hall - 6 wins, 0 defeats

The ONLY big guy he's ever lost to is Kevin Nash, but the combined win/loss of him vs every large opponent he's ever faced?

Goldberg - 57 wins, 2 draws, 1 defeat.

Anyone thinking this is "easily" Andre because he can climb a ladder is talking shit. Yeah, he might win, but I'm near certain that a) Goldberg has the edge in ladder experience and wins and b) he's the best of all time vs guys of similar size to Andre.

And that's why I'm taking Bill. I took Gagne against him as by FAR the best wrestlers against him are scientific submission wrestlers - four losses, no wins vs Bret Hart. He doesn't lose to big guys though. If Andre doesn't like losing to him, who cares. Regal shot on him and embarassed him, Goldberg picked up the win anyway. That's what will happen here. If Andre isn't ok with being booked to go out, he'll make Bill look shit before losing anyway. Personally, I'd like to think that Andre isn't that much of a douche to someone who hasn't yet proven unworthy for the rub, and agrees to go up for the Jackhammer. If not, shitty looking spear and up the ladder for the win for Goldberg.

Who's next?

 

[nightmare]

Ah, yes....

No sell vs No sell. Big and agile vs Big and agile. Winning streak vs Winning streak.

What a match. Do you hear that? Listen...

"GOLDBERG.... GOLDBERG.... GOLDBERG..."

The WCW crowd is on fire chanting his name in anticipation.


Here is the thing. Both of these guys will not easily go down or likely sell much offense. But I am thinking that Bill may stick Andre a bit harder the more frustrated he gets. He wont be able to toss Andre around like he did others, but he certainly can hurt him.

This is WCW- the promotion where Goldberg went over Hulk fn Hogan for the title. If this were any other place, Andre would have the advantage booking wise. But that advantage goes to Bill here.


In the end a very angry bull named Goldberg spears Andre & lifts him up for a spectacular Jackhammer sending Andre crashing to the mat. Goldberg climbs the ladder % there you have it.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Yeh, I wanna echo the "Andre wouldn't put over Goldberg" argument as bullshit. Any lack of commitment from Goldberg to the industry hasn't been exposed if this is prime Bill. Sure he was pushed to the moon and hadn't earned it, same as Warrior. Andre was washed up yeah, but I don't see anyone else other than Hogan excelling against him in that era. I think that holds up quite well as a comparison.

Ok look - this is Bill Goldberg vs big wrestlers. THE GUY IS THE BEST OF ALL TIME AGAINST THEM, in or out of kayfabe. I know Andre is arguably the best of this list, but LOOK at these results.

Vs The Giant - 22 wins and zero defeats
Vs Bam Bam Bigelow - 12 wins, 1 draw, zero defeats
Vs Kane - 4 wins, 1 draw, zero defeats
Vs Mark Henry - 1 win, 0 defeats
Vs Batista - 1 win, 0 defeatss
Vs Hulk Hogan - 1 win, 0 defeats
Vs Tank Abbott - 2 wins, 0 defeats
Vs Big Bossman - 1 win, 0 defeats
Vs Brock Lesnar - 1 win, 0 defeats
Vs Roadblock - 1 win, 0 defeats
Vs Kevin Nash - 5 wins, 1 draw, 1 defeat
Vs Scott Hall - 6 wins, 0 defeats

The ONLY big guy he's ever lost to is Kevin Nash, but the combined win/loss of him vs every large opponent he's ever faced?

Goldberg - 57 wins, 2 draws, 1 defeat.

Anyone thinking this is "easily" Andre because he can climb a ladder is talking shit. Yeah, he might win, but I'm near certain that a) Goldberg has the edge in ladder experience and wins and b) he's the best of all time vs guys of similar size to Andre.

And that's why I'm taking Bill. I took Gagne against him as by FAR the best wrestlers against him are scientific submission wrestlers - four losses, no wins vs Bret Hart. He doesn't lose to big guys though. If Andre doesn't like losing to him, who cares. Regal shot on him and embarassed him, Goldberg picked up the win anyway. That's what will happen here. If Andre isn't ok with being booked to go out, he'll make Bill look shit before losing anyway. Personally, I'd like to think that Andre isn't that much of a douche to someone who hasn't yet proven unworthy for the rub, and agrees to go up for the Jackhammer. If not, shitty looking spear and up the ladder for the win for Goldberg.

Who's next?

Goldberg has only pinned Kane once and that was at a house show. Disqualifications and countouts don't mean jack shit in this situation. And using guys like Tank Abbott, Big Bossman, and that farce of a match with Lesnar as a reason to why Goldberg would win is sad. Goldberg was a dominant force for one year which is far behind what Andre can attest to.

Oh yeah, most of those wins that Goldberg has over Big Show came in dark matches. I don't do dark matches.

Vote Andre because he was the more dominant force for a longer period of time. All hail France.

 

[nightmare]

Oh yeah, most of those wins that Goldberg has over Big Show came in dark matches. I don't do dark matches.

You do watch television though. Remember WCW Nitro?


[YOUTUBE]iw8Gc1dvZNw[/YOUTUBE]


Wins are wins, house shows, live television or dark matches.


In this WCW match- Goldberg would do to Andre just what he did to The Giant and many other people during his run- Spear; Jackhammer; Match over.

Andre is down long enough for him to climb the ladder.

Goldberg wins.