Would HBK Be In The HOF If He Retired In 1998?

[Fenris]

My god, I hate how people love to bring up the fact that Shawn wasn't able to beat Nitro in the ratings whenever the topic of his accomplishments during the 90's are brought up. I have said it before, and I will probably say it a million times more, THAT WAS NOT SHAWN'S FAULT AT ALL! Nobody, and I repeat, NOBODY could possibly compete with WCW during this time. They had the bigger stars (that were well established during their WWF days), they had the cruiserweights who were putting on 4-5 star matches during every Nitro, oh, and they had the biggest star on the planet, HULK FUGGING HOGAN, doing something that nobody had ever seen before in their life, playing a BAD GUY. You add in the fact that WCW had lured away all the stars out of WWF, and all the WWF was left with was Shawn, Bret, and Taker and it is a wonder how the WWF actually survived during this time, let alone compete. As for burying talent or refusing to do jobs, or politicking backstage, that is something that every major star has done at one time or another. Hogan did it, Bret did it, Austin did it, Rock did it, HHH did it, Flair did it, HBK did it. It happens. Does that take away from their accomplishments INSIDE THE RING though? Some people will say yes, others will say no, it all depends on how you want to look at it. I look at it as Shawn being a two time rumble winner, with one of those times being from the number one spot, the first time anyone has ever done that, being a 3 time IC champ, being a 3 time WWF champ, being the first Grand Slam winner, and being the man who put on the most memorable matches of the 90's, namely the ladder match at Mania 10, The Iron Man match at Mania 12, and The first HIAC vs Taker at Bad Blood 1997. Does politicking have anything to do with putting on a show in the ring, and being the best at it? I don't think so at all, and that is why Shawn was considered to be the best in-ring performer ever at the time of his first retirement, and that is why he damn sure would have been a HOFer if he had never wrestled again after that.

I'm trying to think of these performances he put on that he wasn't carried though and i'm drawing a blank, sorry. Unless you mean that hour he kept potatoeing Bret Hart at WM. You know, before he told Hart to "get the f' out of my ring" in front of Brets children.

Anyways look, people bring up the ratings because it's a fact. The quarter hour blocks Michaels was featured in were consistently the lowest drawing of the night and Nitros highest drawing 1/4 hours. Fans tuned out when he came on. His little fanclub can hate it all they want but it will never change history. Btw, when he won the belt? He had a full three months to gain momentum over WCW before the nWo angle took off. He wasn't competing against Hulk "fuggin" Hogan, he was competing against Lex freakin' Luger, WCW Champion The Giant and the Dungeon of Doom for three months between WM 12 and Bash At The Beach. Not only was that his competition but thanks to The Ultimate Warrior returning he started in the 3's and 4's range in the ratings against the high 1's WCW was pulling in going against Bret Hart every week.

Do I need to remind people how that played out? Okay then, well Warrior left the WWF again leaving Michaels as the draw. Those 3's and 4's left along with him as Raw collapsed into the low 2's... and high 1's several times. In fact one of those times came right after he infamously lost his smile when it came to doing a job and handed the title back. Surely you remember it, no? After the WWF invested tons of airtime into building Wrestlemania 13 around Bret v.s. Michaels 2.0 for the belt he walks out on TV pouting and whining, lets the paying fans know he "lost his smile" and was returning to TX to put on a search & rescue for it until the mean old WWF stopped telling him to put someone over? Yeah, that night. Remember how the already low ratings further tanked culminating in a TNA-esque 1.8 as Vince scrambled to try and rewrite the entire WM lead in and angles after dedicated months to building up something else? Yeah....

Then there was the final run which i'm sure SOMEONE will mention when he was largely relegated to his ******ed little DX skits as 60% of every Raw revolved around Stone Cold culminating in those 1/4 hour breakdowns receiving the highest ratings. More interesting than that was how Raw gained 1 MILLION viewers within a week of Michaels retiring and TWO million total within that next month. Weird how that worked out, well not really considering that's how it ALWAYS worked out. Bret takes over from Diesel and the ratings go from the high 1's to high 2's and low 3's. Warrior returns and they hit the 4's. Michaels is made "The Showstoppa" and for several million fans the show actually DOES stop as they turn it off. Belt goes back on Bret and onto The Undertaker, ratings go back up into the high 2's, low 3's. Belt back on Michaels they drop back down into the low 2's. Even in his last few runs soon as they started building around him the ratings fell.

Now to address your other issues, namely "noone could compete with that!" Well.... Hart did. Undertaker did. Austin did. Warrior did. They had no problems getting fans to turn the channel back or new fans to tune in.

As for it not being his fault well actually alot of it is. Going back a bit further than WM 12 he and the Klique made it a regular habit of sabotaging the programming. He loved going into Vinces office and pitching horrible ideas for other talent to bury them. He loved jobbing them out and pulling politics. One example would be Shane Douglas, err Dean Douglas. See Shane here, he expressed to the boys he wasn't digging the Dean gimmick and wanted to pitch The Franchise gimmick to McMahon. Yet everytime he tried The Klique had a meeting with Vince at the time but they would let Vince know all about it. As we all seen, Douglas was relegated to being a jobber hanging out with Bob Backlund instead as Michaels suggested even worse gimmicks to him to pitch to McMahon telling him that gimmick sucked.

Yeah, sucked so bad HHH carbon copied it in 1998 and is now a legend. Next up we'll talk about Chris Candido, a highly talented young man at the time whom with a better gimmick than "Skip" would have worked out great. He had talent, had ability and was over with the fans. Until Michaels convinced Vince to fire him so he could make a play on Sunny. After that maybe i'll mention... Vader. The beast himself. The guy who was a World Champ in WCW and pulling decent numbers as the Main Event over there. You should know the story by now, Vader gets over in the WWF as a megaheel and is promptly jobbed out to Michaels before being relegated to lame mid card feuds.

Next up good ole Mick Foley. The fans have always loved Mick. Loved him in WCW, loved him in the WWF. Undertaker gets him over as a megaheel with MAJOR heat even though the fans dug the guy... Jobbed out to Michaels and buried back onto the midcard again. Ohh yeah, that's right, Vince flirted with the idea and wanted the belt on Mankind to elevate the Mankind/UT feud but Michaels refused(Like always) so they had to do that lame DQ and send Foley back to the midcard looking weaker than he was built up to look.

Neeeext.... How about.... Using TV time to try and destroy another mans marriage? Was that not his fault either? I mean he said it, and it wasn't scripted to be said yet he went into business for himself yet again. Last but not least his refusing to job the belt to Steve Austin at Wrestlemania until The Undertaker threatened him with physical harm if he walked off(again) or continued to refuse to do the job. Interesting how he leaked to the dirt sheets and everyone who would listen his back had an owie and he was retiring after Wrestlemania the same day that meeting ended.

Those are just the talent he tried to screw, that's not including the part discussed above about when he threw months of TV time and money down the drain walking off on live TV because it was time to do a job. One of THREE times. Let's not forget how he was fine to wrestle at IYH until Vince made it clear Douglas would be IC Champion and he held up the company only agreeing to walk out and forfeit the belt if they hotshot it onto Scott Hall. Or the time he got his ass kicked backstage after running his mouth and quit the company in the middle of another program that the WWF spent months building.

Not his fault? No actually it is. I just gave you seven different instances where he went out of his way to harm the product in order to guard the spot Nash politicked for him to get. Nine if you also wanna count his politicking Vince to job Davey Boy in England nearly destroying that WWF stronghold and if you count walking to the ring and laying down to job the Euro title to Triple H.

Last on the list, "so what? Everyone does it." No actually they don't. Hogan: Savage is over as the #2 face and HTM refused to job the IC belt unless Vince gave him a plan for his character, Hogan steps aside and lets Savage run with the title. Warrior gets over as popular as Hogan, Gogan put him over. Taker got over, Hogan put him over. Put Yokozuna over as the man Hogan couldn't beat and retired. Put over The Giant(Big Show) in WCW. Put over Luger. Put over Goldberg. Put over DDP. The Rock. Kurt Angle. HHH. Brock Lesnar. Ric Flair and Bret Hart made careers out of trying to help other guys get over. Austin refused quite a few times so you got me there. The Rock? Serious? Mankind, HHH, Lesnar, Goldberg, Orton. The Rock worked his ass off to help others get over.

There are basically two guys who didn't do that and didn't care if the rest of the product sucked. Kevin Nash and Shawn Michaels. One kissed Vinces ass nonstop(Or worse according to alot of the boys) to keep getting pushes. You're right about one thing though, it IS a wonder the WWF is still in business after The Ratings Killer nearly put it out of business.

 

[Jsaturn14]

I'm trying to think of these performances he put on that he wasn't carried though and i'm drawing a blank, sorry. Unless you mean that hour he kept potatoeing Bret Hart at WM. You know, before he told Hart to "get the f' out of my ring" in front of Brets children.

Anyways look, people bring up the ratings because it's a fact. The quarter hour blocks Michaels was featured in were consistently the lowest drawing of the night and Nitros highest drawing 1/4 hours. Fans tuned out when he came on. His little fanclub can hate it all they want but it will never change history. Btw, when he won the belt? He had a full three months to gain momentum over WCW before the nWo angle took off. He wasn't competing against Hulk "fuggin" Hogan, he was competing against Lex freakin' Luger, WCW Champion The Giant and the Dungeon of Doom for three months between WM 12 and Bash At The Beach. Not only was that his competition but thanks to The Ultimate Warrior returning he started in the 3's and 4's range in the ratings against the high 1's WCW was pulling in going against Bret Hart every week.

Do I need to remind people how that played out? Okay then, well Warrior left the WWF again leaving Michaels as the draw. Those 3's and 4's left along with him as Raw collapsed into the low 2's... and high 1's several times. In fact one of those times came right after he infamously lost his smile when it came to doing a job and handed the title back. Surely you remember it, no? After the WWF invested tons of airtime into building Wrestlemania 13 around Bret v.s. Michaels 2.0 for the belt he walks out on TV pouting and whining, lets the paying fans know he "lost his smile" and was returning to TX to put on a search & rescue for it until the mean old WWF stopped telling him to put someone over? Yeah, that night. Remember how the already low ratings further tanked culminating in a TNA-esque 1.8 as Vince scrambled to try and rewrite the entire WM lead in and angles after dedicated months to building up something else? Yeah....

Then there was the final run which i'm sure SOMEONE will mention when he was largely relegated to his ******ed little DX skits as 60% of every Raw revolved around Stone Cold culminating in those 1/4 hour breakdowns receiving the highest ratings. More interesting than that was how Raw gained 1 MILLION viewers within a week of Michaels retiring and TWO million total within that next month. Weird how that worked out, well not really considering that's how it ALWAYS worked out. Bret takes over from Diesel and the ratings go from the high 1's to high 2's and low 3's. Warrior returns and they hit the 4's. Michaels is made "The Showstoppa" and for several million fans the show actually DOES stop as they turn it off. Belt goes back on Bret and onto The Undertaker, ratings go back up into the high 2's, low 3's. Belt back on Michaels they drop back down into the low 2's. Even in his last few runs soon as they started building around him the ratings fell.

Now to address your other issues, namely "noone could compete with that!" Well.... Hart did. Undertaker did. Austin did. Warrior did. They had no problems getting fans to turn the channel back or new fans to tune in.

As for it not being his fault well actually alot of it is. Going back a bit further than WM 12 he and the Klique made it a regular habit of sabotaging the programming. He loved going into Vinces office and pitching horrible ideas for other talent to bury them. He loved jobbing them out and pulling politics. One example would be Shane Douglas, err Dean Douglas. See Shane here, he expressed to the boys he wasn't digging the Dean gimmick and wanted to pitch The Franchise gimmick to McMahon. Yet everytime he tried The Klique had a meeting with Vince at the time but they would let Vince know all about it. As we all seen, Douglas was relegated to being a jobber hanging out with Bob Backlund instead as Michaels suggested even worse gimmicks to him to pitch to McMahon telling him that gimmick sucked.

Yeah, sucked so bad HHH carbon copied it in 1998 and is now a legend. Next up we'll talk about Chris Candido, a highly talented young man at the time whom with a better gimmick than "Skip" would have worked out great. He had talent, had ability and was over with the fans. Until Michaels convinced Vince to fire him so he could make a play on Sunny. After that maybe i'll mention... Vader. The beast himself. The guy who was a World Champ in WCW and pulling decent numbers as the Main Event over there. You should know the story by now, Vader gets over in the WWF as a megaheel and is promptly jobbed out to Michaels before being relegated to lame mid card feuds.

Next up good ole Mick Foley. The fans have always loved Mick. Loved him in WCW, loved him in the WWF. Undertaker gets him over as a megaheel with MAJOR heat even though the fans dug the guy... Jobbed out to Michaels and buried back onto the midcard again. Ohh yeah, that's right, Vince flirted with the idea and wanted the belt on Mankind to elevate the Mankind/UT feud but Michaels refused(Like always) so they had to do that lame DQ and send Foley back to the midcard looking weaker than he was built up to look.

Neeeext.... How about.... Using TV time to try and destroy another mans marriage? Was that not his fault either? I mean he said it, and it wasn't scripted to be said yet he went into business for himself yet again. Last but not least his refusing to job the belt to Steve Austin at Wrestlemania until The Undertaker threatened him with physical harm if he walked off(again) or continued to refuse to do the job. Interesting how he leaked to the dirt sheets and everyone who would listen his back had an owie and he was retiring after Wrestlemania the same day that meeting ended.

Those are just the talent he tried to screw, that's not including the part discussed above about when he threw months of TV time and money down the drain walking off on live TV because it was time to do a job. One of THREE times. Let's not forget how he was fine to wrestle at IYH until Vince made it clear Douglas would be IC Champion and he held up the company only agreeing to walk out and forfeit the belt if they hotshot it onto Scott Hall. Or the time he got his ass kicked backstage after running his mouth and quit the company in the middle of another program that the WWF spent months building.

Not his fault? No actually it is. I just gave you seven different instances where he went out of his way to harm the product in order to guard the spot Nash politicked for him to get. Nine if you also wanna count his politicking Vince to job Davey Boy in England nearly destroying that WWF stronghold and if you count walking to the ring and laying down to job the Euro title to Triple H.

Last on the list, "so what? Everyone does it." No actually they don't. Hogan: Savage is over as the #2 face and HTM refused to job the IC belt unless Vince gave him a plan for his character, Hogan steps aside and lets Savage run with the title. Warrior gets over as popular as Hogan, Gogan put him over. Taker got over, Hogan put him over. Put Yokozuna over as the man Hogan couldn't beat and retired. Put over The Giant(Big Show) in WCW. Put over Luger. Put over Goldberg. Put over DDP. The Rock. Kurt Angle. HHH. Brock Lesnar. Ric Flair and Bret Hart made careers out of trying to help other guys get over. Austin refused quite a few times so you got me there. The Rock? Serious? Mankind, HHH, Lesnar, Goldberg, Orton. The Rock worked his ass off to help others get over.

There are basically two guys who didn't do that and didn't care if the rest of the product sucked. Kevin Nash and Shawn Michaels. One kissed Vinces ass nonstop(Or worse according to alot of the boys) to keep getting pushes. You're right about one thing though, it IS a wonder the WWF is still in business after The Ratings Killer nearly put it out of business.

Man, where do I begin with this. You know what, we could do the whole back and forth thing when it comes to HBK's matches, or his politicking, or all the rumors and stories and accusations that came out during those three years regarding HBK, but it is clear that you believe those whole heartedly, and you know what, that is cool. Believe what you like. Believe that HBK refused to do jobs, and that Hogan never did. That's cool man. That is your opinion. Believe that HBK was carried through his matches, and had nothing to do with the magic that happened in the ring when he was in it. That's cool, that is your opinion. What I will go into though, is facts. Undeniable facts that can be backed up with proof. So, let us go down History Lane, and let us see how from May 27, 1996 until November 10 1997, the WWF was fighting a losing battle.

First off you say that when Bret took over from Diesel the numbers went from being high 1's to high 2's and low 3's. mmmmmmm, lets see if this claim is true or not. Here are the ratings for Raw from September 4th 1995, when it premiered with Diesel as Champ and continued from November 19th onward with Bret as Champ.

Rating
September 4, 1995 2.2
September 11, 1995 2.5
September 18, 1995 2.7
September 25, 1995 1.9
October 2, 1995 2.5
October 9, 1995 2.6
October 16, 1995 2.6
October 23, 1995 2.2
October 30, 1995 2.1
November 6, 1995 2.6
November 13, 1995 2.6
November 20, 1995 2.3
November 27, 1995 2.3
December 4, 1995 2.6
December 11, 1995 2.5
December 18, 1995 2.3
December 25, 1995 Not On

1996
Date Rating
January 1, 1996 2.6
January 8, 1996 3.0
January 15, 1996 2.4
January 22, 1996 2.9
January 29, 1996 2.4
February 5, 1996 2.7
February 12, 1996 Not On
February 19, 1996 3.1
February 26, 1996 3.1
March 4, 1996 3.6
March 11, 1996 2.9
March 18, 1996 2.9

mmmmmmmmmm, now I am not much of a mathematician, but it looks to me like those numbers are all pretty close together and pretty much the same. In fact, the average of the show with both Diesel and Bret as champion seems to be around a 2.5 or so. Not exactly the 3's you were talking about, and not exactly the stellar numbers HBK started out with that you claim.

Now, You consistently say that once Shawn got the title, the ratings would tumble into the low 2's and high 1's. Let us examine this claim for a brief moment. Here are the ratings that HBK had from when he first won the title on March 31, 1996, until May 27th, 1996 (we will get back to this date in a sec):

April 1, 1996 2.9
April 8, 1996 4.7
April 15, 1996 3.1
April 22, 1996 3.3
April 29, 1996 2.9
May 6, 1996 4.1
May 13, 1996 3.5

Yeah, look at those numbers tumble. He really sucked his first month and a half as champion. Pulling down a 4.7, wow, that is horrible! Did Warrior have anything to do with this number? Possibly, but HBK had as much to do with these numbers as anyone as well.

Now, what happened on May 27, 1996? well, that was the day the NWO truly started. That was the day when the WWF was completely fucked until late 1997, because that was the day when Scott Hall showed up on Nitro, and the "Invasion of the WWF into WCW" started. Do you honestly believe that anyone had a chance of competing against a fresh, new, and interesting idea such as that? I don't think there is, and the numbers from that point on proved it, going from a mid 3, to a low 2:

May 27, 1996 2.3
June 3, 1996 2.3
June 10, 1996 2.7
June 17, 1996 2.3
June 24, 1996 2.7

Now, what kind of numbers was the WWF getting during their HBK/Bret build up towards Mania 13? Well, you say their build up lasted for months, so let's put up months worth of ratings:

July 1, 1996 2.6
July 8, 1996 2.5
July 15, 1996 2.6
July 22, 1996 2.2
July 29, 1996 2.1
August 5, 1996 2.8
August 12, 1996 2.0
August 19, 1996 2.9
August 26, 1996 Not On
September 2, 1996 Not On
September 9, 1996 2.4
September 16, 1996 2.1
September 23, 1996 2.0
September 30, 1996 2.3
October 7, 1996 2.1
October 14, 1996 1.8
October 21, 1996 2.6
October 28, 1996 2.0
November 4, 1996 2.3
November 11, 1996 2.5
November 18, 1996 2.4
November 25, 1996 2.1
December 2, 1996 2.3

1997
Date Rating
January 6, 1997 2.1
January 13, 1997 2.3
January 20, 1997 2.2
January 27, 1997 2.2
February 3, 1997 2.6

Wow, stellar numbers right there. Their build-up was really drawing in the crowds. No, as the numbers show nothing, not even a Bret vs HBK program could stand up to the power that was the NWO and seeing Hulk Hogan as a heel. So honestly, what harm was HBK exactly doing by forfeiting the title, for whatever reason he had? People simply were not watching WWF at that time. People were drawn in by WCW and the bigger names, better storylines, and better wrestling that they had on during that time. HBK stood no chance against something like that.

Now you say that when Taker and Bret became champion, the numbers would spike up to high 3's and low 4's. Yeah, this could not be farther from the truth. The Undertaker and Bret Hart ruled as champion from March 23, 1997 until November 9th 1997. Let's take a look at the actual ratings during that time, shall we?

March 24, 1997 2.5
March 31, 1997 2.7
April 7, 1997 2.2
April 14, 1997 2.2
April 21, 1997 2.8
April 28, 1997 3.4
May 5, 1997 3.2
May 12, 1997 3.2
May 19, 1997 3.1
May 26, 1997 2.7
June 2, 1997 2.5
June 9, 1997 2.2
June 16, 1997 2.4
June 23, 1997 2.4
June 30, 1997 2.5
July 7, 1997 2.5
July 14, 1997 2.6
July 21, 1997 4.1
July 28, 1997 2.9
August 4, 1997 2.7
August 11, 1997 2.9
August 18, 1997 3.2
August 25, 1997 Not On
September 1, 1997 Not On
September 8, 1997 2.2
September 15, 1997 2.6
September 22, 1997 2.4
September 29, 1997 2.7
October 6, 1997 3.0
October 13, 1997 2.3
October 20, 1997 2.9
October 27, 1997 2.3
November 3, 1997 2.6

Sure, there are some 3's and even a 4 thrown into the ratings, (It should be noted that the 4 came on a week when Nitro wasn't on ) but the consistent numbers remain as low to mid 2's, which is consistent with the numbers that HBK was pulling down as champion. Again, this is the power of the NWO at work, and there was simply nothing the WWF could do at the time to combat it.

So yeah, go ahead and believe all the backstage stories you like about HBK, but when it comes to the ratings, and facts, there is no argument or rumor against that.

Now, where did I get these ratings from?

Raw Ratings: http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfraw.htm

Nitro Ratings: http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wcw/wcwnitro.htm

Is this the most trusted source in the world? Probably not, so please, show me your sources. I will happily admit to being wrong if you have a better place where you are getting your information from.

 

[Linubidix..]

I can't believe someone seriously asked this question. Michaels essentially carried the company for quite some time when he was champion. Add to that:

• His days with Marty Jannetty
• The split between he and Jannetty
• He pioneered the ladder match
• Had perhaps the best WrestleMania match with Bret Hart at WM 12
• Was the first person to win the Royal Rumble from #1
• He won back-to-back Royal Rumbles
• He started a little group call D-Generation X
• He wrestled with a destroyed back against Stone Cold at WM 14
• He won the very first Hell in a Cell Match
• He was a part of the Montreal Screwjob

Michaels was going into the Hall of Fame whether or not he returned in '02. He probably would have been first ballot at WrestleMania XX.

Hell, if the most untalented man alive; Drew Carey can get into the WWE Hall Of Fame, then ANYONE can.

 

[avi01]

Of course he would...he already had one great career by then, probably would not have the same feeling by certainly would have been in the hall of fame.
I mean Drew Carey got in , why would HBK 1998 who actually had a great wrestling career not.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Defintely. If they put Bret in before him and WWE buried the hatchet there is no doubt in my mind Michaels would have been in there too, as a matter of fact he probably would have been in there alot earlier.

He wouldn't be regarded as the greatest of all time by WWE, but he would most certainly have been held in a high regard, definitely enough to get him into the HOF.

Lets look at the facts too, if Koko B Ware went to the HOF, how in the hell would you not put Michaels in?

Michaels isn't like Bruno or Macho Man, if WWE gave him the invitation in lets say '07 I guarantee Michaels would have been more than happy to accept.

 

[Fenris]

Man, where do I begin with this. You know what, we could do the whole back and forth thing when it comes to HBK's matches, or his politicking, or all the rumors and stories and accusations that came out during those three years regarding HBK, but it is clear that you believe those whole heartedly, and you know what, that is cool. Believe what you like. Believe that HBK refused to do jobs, and that Hogan never did. That's cool man. That is your opinion. Believe that HBK was carried through his matches, and had nothing to do with the magic that happened in the ring when he was in it. That's cool, that is your opinion. What I will go into though, is facts. Undeniable facts that can be backed up with proof. So, let us go down History Lane, and let us see how from May 27, 1996 until November 10 1997, the WWF was fighting a losing battle.[/B]

Let's see, virtually everyone who worked with the guy at the time apon leaving the WWF/E states the same thing, dozens and during his "Oh Brother" tour where Jesus healed the 'ol back for one more payday he admitted mutiple times most of it was true and he was a piece of trash. So yeah, I do believe him and everyone else.

Where did I say Hogan refused to do jobs? If you weren't over of course he did, beating him meant something. I said Hogan(and the others) worked to get other talent over, that is a fact. He wasn't scheming to sabotage the product and bury guys who were over. Again, fact.

Anyways let's move onto the rest.

First off you say that when Bret took over from Diesel the numbers went from being high 1's to high 2's and low 3's. mmmmmmm, lets see if this claim is true or not. Here are the ratings for Raw from September 4th 1995, when it premiered with Diesel as Champ and continued from November 19th onward with Bret as Champ.

*Raw premier in 1993, not in 1995 with Diesel as Champ. Thank you though, you gave me a frame of reference of where you're coming from and apparently wasn't watching the product at the time and only going off WWE promoted mythology.

Now, let's break down these ratings, shall we? Bret Hart won the title November 19th, 1995 at Survivor Series culminating in Diesels failed run finally coming to an end. Let's break that down from the ratings you posted.

Big Lazy Kevin Nash-
September 4, 1995 2.2
September 11, 1995 2.5
September 18, 1995 2.7
September 25, 1995 1.9
October 2, 1995 2.5
October 9, 1995 2.6
October 16, 1995 2.6
October 23, 1995 2.2
October 30, 1995 2.1
November 6, 1995 2.6
November 13, 1995 2.6

Here we have that era breaking the midpoint five times. Not bad and I would also add in that the build for those several months was Hart chasing the belt only to come up short after a series of DQ's. Irregardless the Diesel era is largely panned as the WWF's worst. Whatever though, let's move onto Hart taking over again.

November 20, 1995 2.3
November 27, 1995 2.3
December 4, 1995 2.6
December 11, 1995 2.5
December 18, 1995 2.3
December 25, 1995 Not On

1996
Date Rating
January 1, 1996 2.6
January 8, 1996 3.0
January 15, 1996 2.4
January 22, 1996 2.9
January 29, 1996 2.4
February 5, 1996 2.7
February 12, 1996 Not On
February 19, 1996 3.1
February 26, 1996 3.1
March 4, 1996 3.6
March 11, 1996 2.9
March 18, 1996 2.9

*Added by me* March 25, 1996 2.8

mmmmmmmmmm, now I am not much of a mathematician, but it looks to me like those numbers are all pretty close together and pretty much the same. In fact, the average of the show with both Diesel and Bret as champion seems to be around a 2.5 or so. Not exactly the 3's you were talking about, and not exactly the stellar numbers HBK started out with that you claim.

Apparently you're not indeed. As we can see from the breakdown under Kevin Nash the ratings peaked at 2.7, and it wasn't very often. Within two months Harts 3rd WWF Champion run had boosted the ratings past the mid 5's consistently only dropping into the low 2's twice in 1996. I'm not exactly certain how you figure it isn't the 3's I was talking about when he pulled a rating at 3.0 or above four times, about as often as Nash pulling a rating above 2.5.

As for the #'s HBK started with that I "claim"? See below.

Now, You consistently say that once Shawn got the title, the ratings would tumble into the low 2's and high 1's. Let us examine this claim for a brief moment. Here are the ratings that HBK had from when he first won the title on March 31, 1996, until May 27th, 1996 (we will get back to this date in a sec):

April 1, 1996 2.9
April 8, 1996 4.7
April 15, 1996 3.1
April 22, 1996 3.3
April 29, 1996 2.9
May 6, 1996 4.1
May 13, 1996 3.5

Yeah, look at those numbers tumble. He really sucked his first month and a half as champion. Pulling down a 4.7, wow, that is horrible! Did Warrior have anything to do with this number? Possibly, but HBK had as much to do with these numbers as anyone as well.

Ultimate Warrior had almost EVERYTHING to do with those numbers. Again, since you think Raw began in September of 1995 and all, you apparently weren't tuning i, but we are getting ahead of ourselves. Lets get back to that platform I stated Michaels had to build off of or at least maintain. As we can see looking above the WWF had regrouped from the Diesel debacle by 1996 and the ratings were on an upswing again. High 2's and into the threes, as I stated. Those are the numbers YOU posted.

Now let's talk about that April 8th Raw, shall we? What was the big attraction hyped up on April 1st, again? That's right, "The Ultimate Warrior returns" and would do a live interview. Quite interesting it is 2 million people just so happened to tune in to watch Michaels bore them the very same night Ultimate Warrior makes his RAW debut. Well, not really considering the same thing happened in WCW. For reference, and pulled from that website you chose. Augist 17th, 1998. Warrior walks out on Nitro. The segment becomes the highest rated 1/4 segment in WCW history and the ratings end at 4.9. The next Nitro on August 24th pulls a 5.2 rating, the highest rated WCW Nitro in its existence at the time. But wait, there's more. The very next Nitro on the 31st pulled.... A 6.0. Another record! The week after? A 5.5. Btw, that 6.0? Still stands as the highest rated Nitro ever. I mention it to illustrate a point, Ultimate Warrior drew huge numbers, always had.

Back to the WWF though...

May 20, 1996 2.3
May 27, 1996 2.3
June 3, 1996 2.3
June 10, 1996 2.7
June 17, 1996 2.3
June 24, 1996 2.7
July 1, 1996 2.6

A sharp dropoff for three weeks but then as U.W. was featured on Raw a bit more... An uptick? Anyways, where were we?

Now, what happened on May 27, 1996? well, that was the day the NWO truly started. That was the day when the WWF was completely fucked until late 1997, because that was the day when Scott Hall showed up on Nitro, and the "Invasion of the WWF into WCW" started. Do you honestly believe that anyone had a chance of competing against a fresh, new, and interesting idea such as that? I don't think there is, and the numbers from that point on proved it, going from a mid 3, to a low 2:

Not much happened on May 27th, 1996. Some lame WWF midcarder interrupted a match on Nitro and announced he was taking over. It would be about like Zack Ryder walking out on Impact and announcing he took over. In fact....

WCW Nitro the night Razuh Ramone walked out:

May 27, 1996 2.8

The next week?

June 3, 1996 3.0

200,000 people switched over.

Yet....
May 13, 1996 3.5
May 20, 1996 2.3
May 27, 1996 2.3
June 3, 1996 2.3

The WWF... Lost 1.2 million viewers before Razor Ramone walked out on Nitro. Even more interesting is that June 10th Raw. What happened on June 10th? Wait, wasn't that... Yeah, it was. The was the week after Razor Ramones big partner arrived... Diesel. Toot toot.

Nitros rating:
June 10, 1996 2.6

Raws:
June 10, 1996 2.7

Interesting. Nitro loses 400,000 viewers as soon as it's made clear the nWo was Diesel and Razor Ramone... And yet the SAME WEEK Raw picks up 300,000 viewers.

My point being and I guess it is hard to understand if you weren't watching back then, noone gave a fuck about Diesel and Razor Ramone invading WCW. Cool storyline? Sure. But they weren't draws and they came in with the baggage of being cartoon characters from the WWF as well as two characters the golden boy beat multiple times. They only got over because they were the two assholes who killed Hulkamania. Could they have competed with the nWo after Hogan took it from midcard tag team to infamy? Yes, with characters the fans would want to see. Like I said and ratings show, if Michaels was this draw his fanboys make him out to be well, he had three months to solidify himself as such before WCW took over Monday Nights.

Now, what kind of numbers was the WWF getting during their HBK/Bret build up towards Mania 13? Well, you say their build up lasted for months, so let's put up months worth of ratings:

I don't "say" anything. It did. Ask anyone who was actually watching back then. The WWF invested month after month pushing along that Wrestlemania rematch.

July 1, 1996 2.6
July 8, 1996 2.5
July 15, 1996 2.6
July 22, 1996 2.2
July 29, 1996 2.1
August 5, 1996 2.8
August 12, 1996 2.0
August 19, 1996 2.9
August 26, 1996 Not On
September 2, 1996 Not On
September 9, 1996 2.4
September 16, 1996 2.1
September 23, 1996 2.0
September 30, 1996 2.3
October 7, 1996 2.1
October 14, 1996 1.8
October 21, 1996 2.6
October 28, 1996 2.0
November 4, 1996 2.3
November 11, 1996 2.5
November 18, 1996 2.4
November 25, 1996 2.1
December 2, 1996 2.3

1997
Date Rating
January 6, 1997 2.1
January 13, 1997 2.3
January 20, 1997 2.2
January 27, 1997 2.2
February 3, 1997 2.6

Even clearer evidence he couldn't draw, a steady downhill stream after Warrior left. Thanks.

Wow, stellar numbers right there. Their build-up was really drawing in the crowds. No, as the numbers show nothing, not even a Bret vs HBK program could stand up to

Wait wait wait. Who said anything about it drawing? The whole argument is Michaels couldn't draw so no, of course it didn't draw squat. Nothing he did drew.

So honestly, what harm was HBK exactly doing by forfeiting the title, for whatever reason he had? People simply were not watching WWF at that time.

For whatever reason? Ha, it is to laugh. Lets retranslate the spin: What harm was it that the WWF invested months of valuable TV time and everyone elses storylines around Hart/Michaels version two at Wrestlemania only to have Michaels hand over the title because the plan was he loses the belt to Hart.

Well let's go back to those ratings.

January 27, 1997 2.2
February 3, 1997 2.6
February 13, 1997 2.7(Thursday Raw special event)

Well let's see here. After months and months of the ratings rising a bit, falling a bit but usually staying pretty low the ratings pop a bit with 400,000 people turning back into Raw. The very next event 100,000 more tune back in. For perspective: A swing of 500,000 viewers tuning back into your show in a week? That was huge back then.

But back to the ratings, WWF has 500,000 fans tuned back in. They have a golden opportunity to impress and hold onto a large chunk of those 200,000 fans. But Michaels? Well he hands the title over because he "lost his smile" and needed to hire fellow mullet brother Dog Chapman to go on a statewide smilehunt with him. The fallout?

February 10, 1997 2.3
February 17, 1997 2.1
February 24, 1997 2.5*
March 3, 1997 1.9

Well.... As the WWF suddenly had to rewrite all of their Wrestlemania plans the ratings tanked. So yeah, what harm did it do? He only turned 500,000 curious fans away, 500,000 fans who tuned in from Nitro and stayed tuned in the next Raw... Only to watch the supposed champion hand McMahon the belt because his lips were stuck frowning. They tuned back out. Even still, Bret, Taker, Austin, Mankind ect busted their asses and turned it back around. From a 1.9 they...

March 10, 1997 2.3
March 17, 1997 2.4
March 24, 1997 2.5
March 31, 1997 2.7
April 7, 1997 2.2
April 14, 1997 2.2
April 21, 1997 2.8
April 28, 1997 3.4
May 5, 1997 3.2
May 12, 1997 3.2
May 19, 1997 3.1

Interesting, isn't it? Here we have again Michaels not only out of the main event but out of the picture. We have new talent being pushed and Steve Austin starting to take off. In under two months we go from popping a 1.9 as everything goes into disarray thanks to Michaels.... To a 3.4. What's more for an entire month Raw is holding above that 3.0 marker, the fans who checked in are staying checked in. Until.... Michaels returns and all of a sudden Austin goes from being pushed as a badass singles wrestler to... Michaels sidekick. Behold...

May 26, 1997 2.7
June 2, 1997 2.5
June 9, 1997 2.2
June 16, 1997 2.4
June 23, 1997 2.4
June 30, 1997 2.5
July 7, 1997 2.5
July 14, 1997 2.6

Ooops, just couldn't maintain it with Michaels trying to hold back the biggest star of the show! But wait, the WWF ends that abortion and Austin is once again a singles star and...

July 21, 1997 4.1
July 28, 1997 2.9
August 4, 1997 2.7
August 11, 1997 2.9
August 18, 1997 3.2

Some of the lost fans tune back in again.

*ECW invaded Raw on this night and thus a few hundred thousand ECW fans tuned into Raw to see their guys on primetime.

But... Michaels was outa the picture.

HBK stood no chance against something like that.

He couldn't even stand against The Giant so of course he couldn't compete with the nWo.

Now you say that when Taker and Bret became champion, the numbers would spike up to high 3's and low 4's. Yeah, this could not be farther from the truth.

Of course it is far from the truth as I never said that. It's a flat out lie on your part. Nowhere did I say Bret Hart and Undertaker drew high 3's and low 4's. Stop making garbage up.

The Undertaker and Bret Hart ruled as champion from March 23, 1997 until November 9th 1997. Let's take a look at the actual ratings during that time, shall we?

March 24, 1997 2.5
March 31, 1997 2.7
April 7, 1997 2.2
April 14, 1997 2.2
April 21, 1997 2.8
April 28, 1997 3.4
May 5, 1997 3.2
May 12, 1997 3.2
May 19, 1997 3.1

Ooops, there it goes jumping from the low 2's/high 1's into the threes until he returned and tried to hold back Steve Austin. In fact, look at that steady increase in those two months he wasn't wasting TV time trying to bury people. Then notice how they started dropping soon as he returned and tried to make Austin his underling? Yeah...

Sure, there are some 3's and even a 4 thrown into the ratings, (It should be noted that the 4 came on a week when Nitro wasn't on ) but the consistent numbers remain as low to mid 2's, which is consistent with the numbers that HBK was pulling down as champion. Again, this is the power of the NWO at work, and there was simply nothing the WWF could do at the time to combat it.

Some threes?! The WWF held in the threes for a month straight against the nWo. As the ratings show, soon as Michaels is nowhere to be found Raw started growing at a decent pace.

So yeah, go ahead and believe all the backstage stories you like about HBK, but when it comes to the ratings, and facts, there is no argument or rumor against that.

And as the facts clearly show he was unable to hold onto the ratings Warrior brought in by returning and as soon as he was off of Raw the ratings shot back up. The ratings and the links you posted show that.