WWE needs legends to sell wrestlemanias?

[quink987]

ok guys I was looking at the WM buyrates and it got me thinking Wrestlemania 17 was the last WM without any legends returning for a match and Wrestlers who had a part time contract or was on a year long contract and it sold over 1 million buys heres the list

◦WrestleMania 1 - 398,000 (Closed Circuit Television)
◦WrestleMania 2 - 319,000 (Closed Circuit Television)
◦WrestleMania III - 450,000 (Closed Circuit Television) and another 400,000 on PPV
◦WrestleMania IV - 175,000 (Closed Circuit Television)
◦WrestleMania V - 767,000
◦WrestleMania VI - 550,000
◦WrestleMania VII - 400,000
◦WrestleMania VIII - 360,000
◦WrestleMania IX - 430,000
◦WrestleMania X - 420,000
◦WrestleMania XI - 340,000
◦WrestleMania XII - 290,000
◦WrestleMania 13 - 237,000 (Lowest Buyrate Record)
◦WrestleMania XIV - 730,000
◦WrestleMania XV - 800,000
◦WrestleMania 2000 - 824,000
◦WrestleMania X-Seven - 1,040,000
◦WrestleMania X8 - 880,000
◦WrestleMania XIX - 560,000
◦WrestleMania XX - 1,007,000
◦WrestleMania 21 - 1,085,000
◦WrestleMania 22 - 975,000
◦WrestleMania 23 - 1,250,000 (Former Highest Buyrate Record)
◦WrestleMania XXIV - 1,041,000
◦WrestleMania XXV - 960,000
◦WrestleMania XXVI - 885,000
◦WrestleMania XXVII - 1,042,000
◦WrestleMania XXVIII - 1,300,000 (Highest Buyrate Record)

WM18 had Hogan
WM19 had hogan,rock, Austin
WM20 had Rock, Foley, Goldberg
WM21 had Austin Return with Piper and Hogan, Bret were inducted into HOF
WM22 well ok didnt really have outside help so ill let this past
WM23 had the Donald Trumps feud with McMahon and Austin
WM24 had Floyd Mayweather, Ric Flair Retirement
WM25 had Legends return and Taker and HBK
WM26 had Bret, Hbk Retirement
WM27 had the Rock
WM28 had the Rock

so realistic theirs only been 3 WM's without outside help to reach close to 1 million buys so my point is could WWE sell a WM now without LEgends or outside help to reach 1 million buys?

 

[Just Do It]

Of course, if done right.

Cena vs Undertaker would be a big draw. This is the biggest money match they have in their wings at the moment.

 

[Brewski]

While I think brining big names back from the past does help quite a bit on the card but I think a lot of the bigger numbers of late come from the fact that the company is larger and Wrestlemania's stock as an event has always grown. Even if tv viewing is down 'Mania still draws bigger and bigger interest. This can also be seen on the attendance numbers since they have now left arenas in favor of stadiums that will hold much bigger audiences.

 

[KingOfKings249]

Hogan , Rock, Mick Foley and Austin were still apart of the roster by WM 18, 19 and 20 .. they all became part time after

 

[z MUFASA z]

Wrestlemania is made for legends. Its the All-Star game of wrestling, only the best get to go and they always show why they're the best. Its not made for guys to make a name for themselves thats what the other 11 months are for. The Austins, Rocks, HHHs, Undertaker, etc. where made for his spotlight its not like these guys didnt go through their own feuds to get there hell Austin and Rock did it together and to some extent HHH used Undertaker. They all had Wrestlemania moments, just like Ryback, Punk, & hopefully but doubtful, Ziggler will have this year and then in a couple years, if done right, they will be a Mania draws

 

[Da Solo]

No. As big of a draw Cena, Punk and Taker are, a card without some sort of outside help or special attraction would not even be close to touching a milli, much less WM28's buyrate. Just look at all of the WM's that crossed into a million, as the OP put it himself:

WM X-7 is the exception, although Rock vs. Austin and McMahon vs. McMahon were big draws within themselves
WM20 had the Rock come back once he was finally fully immersed into the movie business
WM21 was riding off of Bret's induction into the HOF, plus Austin, Piper and Hogan returns
WM23 had the big Trump's hair vs. McMahon's hair stip
WM24 was with Mayweather vs. Big Show (a huge draw), plus we all knew it was probably Flair's last match
WM27 and 28, two of the highest WM buyrates, had Rock at the heights of his popularity

Especially with the lack of megastars on the roster, WWE can only dream of selling like this without part-timers like Brock, Rock, Taker, etc. so the IWC shouldn't whine about them "hogging the spotlight". The only full time superstars that can still possibly sell these big numbers are Cena, Punk, MAYBE Ryback and Team Hell No. Big Show is an attraction, but not a huge selling point; Miz is not as big a celebrity as WWE puts him over to be; Ziggler has barely any merit outside of wrestling; Kofi, Truth, Sandow and other wildly popular superstars within the WWE have yet to have the trigger fully pulled on them; Orton's star has faded. Without the part timers, you'd be looking at 600,000 to 750,000 buys if we're lucky enough.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Legends draw and drawing pushes you in to becoming a legend.

The thing that stands out the most to me from these numbers is the increase in buys from the declining years of WM 9 to 13 and then the huge bump received from 14. Which can somewhat be credited to Austin but needs to equally if not more credit to Mike Tyson - a different type of legend. He really deserves a ton of credit for making wrestling interesting and bringing back the paying audience. Austin took it from there.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Mania has always used outside sources.

I think the biggest thing to realize is that, with any statistical analysis, you need a baseline. Without doing any math, it looks like the jump from 13-14 is the biggest percent jump for PPVs. That's not all Tyson. That's a change in the market. That's Austin, WCW, WWF, Tyson, McMahon, everything all getting huge.

It almost seems like you're trying to discount current guys. 1M is huge and today more than ever, they have to fight pretty easily obtained views on streams and torrents.

Mania 13 kinda shows how little celebrity involvement helps. Headlined by a sports star and the Title match had Pam Anderson and some other skank.

Ultimately Wrestlemania is about getting as many different eyeballs on your product. It's not just getting 70 million in revenue (70 dollars x 1M buys), it's not just about the gate, it's about the rejuvinated fanbase and the new fans you brought in from sports, TV, movies, old school fans returning, etc. You get all these different interests watching your product and you culminate it with the best guy(s) you have today in the main event.

 

[HBsam31]

I think legends need to be a part of Mania especially now with the lack of any giant stars outside of Punk and Cena. I would like to see how much Undertaker's streak match has helped Mania buys because I always look forward to that match the most though probably not for the same reason as most. New stars need to be made though because soon enough these legends will not be able to put on a good match, I mean they are going to get to old for it at some point. Mania will always have outside people. I like GSB's point about Mike Tyson at Mania 14. I am sure Austin had a big part to play in the number, but Mike Tyson had been a household name for years, and I would give him a lot of credit for people wanting to see that particular Mania.

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

WM19 had hogan,rock, Austin

And yet one of the lowest buy record in newer times...

Statistics proves not that much. You need proven draws(read: legends, standard draws from the company and people outside who can drew some attention) in order to advertise the product and for the people to buy it, but it all depends on advertisement. If you have good advertisement and people who can carry that out, you are good in terms of selling the product. Ergo, if you just make huge draw you will make huge draw.

One can argue even on one more thing and that is that selling the product doesnt necesserily means quality of product. Wrestlemania 19 was very good to many people and yet Wrestlemania 27 was huge draw but one of the dissapointing Manias in terms of quality...

 

[ted sheckler]

Mania 13 kinda shows how little celebrity involvement helps. Headlined by a sports star and the Title match had Pam Anderson and some other skank.

That was Jenny McCarthy.. and secondly you got your WM's mixed up... Mania 13 is the lowest buyrate of all time and that was headlined by Bret Hart vs Austin and Taker vs Sid.. The one you were talking about was Mania 11 headlined by Shawn vs Diesel and Bam Bam vs LT and did quite a bit better in the buyrate.

[/QUOTE]WrestleMania 23 - 1,250,000 (Former Highest Buyrate Record)
◦WrestleMania XXIV - 1,041,000
◦WrestleMania XXV - 960,000
◦WrestleMania XXVI - 885,000
◦WrestleMania XXVII - 1,042,000
◦WrestleMania XXVIII - 1,300,000 (Highest Buyrate Record)

[/QUOTE]

There is actually a correction to this as well.. WWE Overshot what they thought WM 28 did.. Once revised actual buys were 1.21 mil which means WM23 is still the most bought of all time with 28 just falling shy of that number.

 

[Just Do It]

Regardless of the sales, WM19 remains one of the 3 best WM's ever. Quality show from start to finish in front of a great crowd in a lovely looking arena.

 

[King Patrick Star]

I think the WWE could reach 1 million buys for WrestleMania without Hall Of Famers and Legends. All they would have to do is take all of the Main Events stipulations they have for the year and lump them all up together at WM.

20 – man Royal Rumble match from Royal Rumble (new entry every 60 seconds)

6 – Man Elimination Chamber match from Elimination Chamber

1 – on – 1 Extreme Rules match from Extreme Rules

Bikini match from Bash At The Beach (every active Diva is in the match…wait, Bash At The Beach!?)

6 – Man Money In The Bank Ladder match from Money In The Bank

Triple Threat match from SummerSlam

5 – Man Championship Scramble match from Night Of Champions (cause I couldn’t think of a better one that that)

Fatal Four Way match from Over The Limit

1 – on – 1 Hell In A Cell match from Hell In A Cell

8 – Man Survivor Series Elimination Tag Team match from Survivor Series

Tag Team TLC match from TLC.

That’s 10 matches for 60 WWE SuperStars, plus a Bikini match with all the Divas. You have to believe that the match stipulations are enough to sell the PPV regardless of who is in what match. I think this idea should be saved for WM XXX. Now the fun part…filling in the blanks. Who should wrestle who in what match?? I’ll be back with my card later.

 

[18dionlyone]

Wrestlemaina 17 had legends..the gimmick battle Royal...Iron Sheik...Hacksaw...Michael Hayes...Slaughter..need I go on

 

[King Patrick Star]

I think the WWE could reach 1 million buys for WrestleMania without Hall Of Famers and Legends. All they would have to do is take all of the Main Events stipulations they have for the year and lump them all up together at WM.

20 – man Royal Rumble match from Royal Rumble (new entry every 60 seconds)

6 – Man Elimination Chamber match from Elimination Chamber

1 – on – 1 Extreme Rules match from Extreme Rules

Bikini match from Bash At The Beach (every active Diva is in the match…wait, Bash At The Beach!?)

6 – Man Money In The Bank Ladder match from Money In The Bank

Triple Threat match from SummerSlam

5 – Man Championship Scramble match from Night Of Champions (cause I couldn’t think of a better one that that)

Fatal Four Way match from Over The Limit

1 – on – 1 Hell In A Cell match from Hell In A Cell

8 – Man Survivor Series Elimination Tag Team match from Survivor Series

Tag Team TLC match from TLC.

That’s 10 matches for 60 WWE SuperStars, plus a Bikini match with all the Divas. You have to believe that the match stipulations are enough to sell the PPV regardless of who is in what match. I think this idea should be saved for WM XXX. Now the fun part…filling in the blanks. Who should wrestle who in what match?? I’ll be back with my card later.

Here’s my match listing.
I decided to change the Survivor Series Elimination Tag Team match from an 8 – Man match to a 10 – Man match.
I decided to change the Money In The Bank Ladder match from a 6 – Man match to an 8 – Man match.
I decided to change the Elimination Chamber match from a 6 – Man match to a 5 – Man match.

• 20 – man Royal Rumble match for shot at the Intercontinental Championship or the United States Championship later in the evening
The participants are: Alex Riley, Camacho, Christian, Curt Hawkins, David Otunga, Epico, Evan Bourne, Hunico, Jey Uso, Jimmy Uso, JTG, Justin Gabriel, Michael McGillicutty, Primo, R-Truth, Sin Cara, Ted DiBiase, Tyson Kidd, William Regal, and Yoshi Tatsu.
If this was the WWE.com pre-show match, this would be the greatest pre-show match ever. I pick Christian to win and to go after the Intercontinental Title.

• 10 – Man Survivor Series Elimination Tag Team match
3MB (Heath Slater, Drew McIntyre, and Jinder Mahal) and The Prime Time Players (Darren Young and Titus O’Neil vs. The Shield (Seth Rollins, Dean Ambrose, and Roman Reigns), Brad Maddox and Big E. Langston

• 8 – Man Money In The Bank Ladder match
Brock Lesnar vs. Brodus Clay vs. Ezekiel Jackson vs. The Great Khali vs. Mason Ryan vs. Ryback vs. Tensai vs. Hornswoggle

• Divas Championship Bikini Battle Royal match for the vacant Divas Championship
AJ Lee vs. Aksana vs. Alicia Fox vs. Cameron vs. Eve vs. Kaitlyn vs. Layla vs. Naomi vs. Natalya vs. Rosa Mendes vs. Tamina Snuka…all in Bikinis!!

• 5 – Man Championship Scramble match for a shot at World Title later in the evening, featuring the last 5 former World Champions
Big Show vs. Sheamus vs. Daniel Bryan vs. Mark Henry vs. Randy Orton

• 5 – Man Elimination Chamber match for a shot at the WWE Title later in the evening, featuring the last 5 former WWE Champions
CM Punk vs. Alberto Del Rio vs. John Cena vs. Rey Mysterio vs. The Miz

• Unified WWE World Tag Team Championship TLC
Unified WWE World Tag Team Champions, Team Rhodes Scholars vs. The Brothers of Destruction

• United States Championship Fatal Four Way match, featuring the last 3 former United States Champions
United States Champion, Antonio Cesaro vs. Santino Marella vs. Jack Swagger vs. Zack Ryder

• Intercontinental Championship Triple Threat match, featuring the last 2 former Intercontinental Champions, excluding the Miz due to him being in the Elimination Chamber match, earlier in the evening.
Intercontinental Champion, Wade Barrett vs. Kofi Kingston vs. the winner of the WM XXIX RR match, Christian

• World Championship Hell In A Cell match
World Champion, Dolph Ziggler vs. the winner of the 5 – Man Championship Scramble match

• WWE Championship Extreme Rules match
WWE Champion, The Rock vs. the winner of the 5 – Man Elimination Chamber match

Where is the WM XXIX Dream Card thread?? Wait a second, does the Rock, Undertaker and Brock Lesnar count as returning Legends??

 

[DjFerrisoi]

Its weird because when these legends finally do pack it in, which i can see being very soon.. I really cant see anyone that can fill there boots in the current full time main roster. I cant see Wrestlemania in say what? 5 years being great at all.....

 

[xavyer]

Since wrestlemania XX they do, but the diference between then and now is that then the talent was great, and the road to wrestlemania promos were so good that people couldn't wait for wrestlemania, and now, most of the promos are kind of lame, and they don't hype many matches like they used to, and today's superstars are not pushed enough to sell, Vince allways promote the Rock a year in advance, and starting January, he forgets about the current roster and is when he starts bring superstars from the past so they can have a Wrestlemania match or moment, except for Cena, Punk, Orton and Sheamus, thry are the only ones that have a sure spot at Wrestlemania, also Kane and the Big show are set for Wrestlemania, as for the rest of the roster is a guessing game, don't get me wrong, is not todays' roster's fault, the writters are the ones to blame, if they would do it like before and give todays' roster something to work with, writte better storylines for them, and push them instead of the Rock, or Shawn Michaels, maybe people can be surprised, because back then everyone had a fair chance, and now, the ones that actually have a chance are the people that Vince McMahon like, and i think he doesn't thrust todays' roster to deliver, and like i said, that is the reason why he brings people from the attitude era......

 

[Ruthless-RKO]

You forgot that WresleMania 17 had that legends battle royal..

Anyway.. Like many have said, WrestleMania is a global event, its a 4 hour ppv as well, it's all about legends and becoming a legend.. So what if they have needed the Rock fot the past 2 Manias? WWE is a business and it needs to turnover a profit and if that's a way of doing it, then so be it.

Also WM25, I don't think anyone bought it to see Roddy Piper, Jimmy Snuka and Steamboat, but the big draw itself was Taker vs HBK.. But you can't say they are part time wrestlers or legends that were brought back if they where still on a WWE weekly schedule.. same applies to the WM26 match, Streak vs. Career really sold that event.

 

[MINISTRYrising]

At the end of the day, if WWE did not have the legends return for Wrestlemania, then it would feel just like any other PPV and if it did not offer anything different then the fans are less likely to part with there money to view it.

 

[d_henderson1810]

ok guys I was looking at the WM buyrates and it got me thinking Wrestlemania 17 was the last WM without any legends returning for a match and Wrestlers who had a part time contract or was on a year long contract and it sold over 1 million buys heres the list

◦WrestleMania 1 - 398,000 (Closed Circuit Television)
◦WrestleMania 2 - 319,000 (Closed Circuit Television)
◦WrestleMania III - 450,000 (Closed Circuit Television) and another 400,000 on PPV
◦WrestleMania IV - 175,000 (Closed Circuit Television)
◦WrestleMania V - 767,000
◦WrestleMania VI - 550,000
◦WrestleMania VII - 400,000
◦WrestleMania VIII - 360,000
◦WrestleMania IX - 430,000
◦WrestleMania X - 420,000
◦WrestleMania XI - 340,000
◦WrestleMania XII - 290,000
◦WrestleMania 13 - 237,000 (Lowest Buyrate Record)
◦WrestleMania XIV - 730,000
◦WrestleMania XV - 800,000
◦WrestleMania 2000 - 824,000
◦WrestleMania X-Seven - 1,040,000
◦WrestleMania X8 - 880,000
◦WrestleMania XIX - 560,000
◦WrestleMania XX - 1,007,000
◦WrestleMania 21 - 1,085,000
◦WrestleMania 22 - 975,000
◦WrestleMania 23 - 1,250,000 (Former Highest Buyrate Record)
◦WrestleMania XXIV - 1,041,000
◦WrestleMania XXV - 960,000
◦WrestleMania XXVI - 885,000
◦WrestleMania XXVII - 1,042,000
◦WrestleMania XXVIII - 1,300,000 (Highest Buyrate Record)

WM18 had Hogan
WM19 had hogan,rock, Austin
WM20 had Rock, Foley, Goldberg
WM21 had Austin Return with Piper and Hogan, Bret were inducted into HOF
WM22 well ok didnt really have outside help so ill let this past
WM23 had the Donald Trumps feud with McMahon and Austin
WM24 had Floyd Mayweather, Ric Flair Retirement
WM25 had Legends return and Taker and HBK
WM26 had Bret, Hbk Retirement
WM27 had the Rock
WM28 had the Rock

so realistic theirs only been 3 WM's without outside help to reach close to 1 million buys so my point is could WWE sell a WM now without LEgends or outside help to reach 1 million buys?

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Hate to burst your bubble, but WM X7 DID have Legends returning- lots of them!

The match was the "Gimmick Battle Royal" which the Iron Sheik won after eliminating Sargeant Slaughter (last time I looked, both of these men were considered "Legends" of WWE).

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

And yet one of the lowest buy record in newer times...

Statistics proves not that much. You need proven draws(read: legends, standard draws from the company and people outside who can drew some attention) in order to advertise the product and for the people to buy it, but it all depends on advertisement. If you have good advertisement and people who can carry that out, you are good in terms of selling the product. Ergo, if you just make huge draw you will make huge draw.

One can argue even on one more thing and that is that selling the product doesnt necesserily means quality of product. Wrestlemania 19 was very good to many people and yet Wrestlemania 27 was huge draw but one of the dissapointing Manias in terms of quality...

You're correlating two things that actually don't correlate.

If draw was in ANY way indicative of the quality of the show, then people would have to pay AFTER the show. They don't. The numbers is indicative of the quality of the HYPE of the show. This idea that higher attendance and numbers=better show is nuts. That measures how well the show was hyped. Now, over time this is true. If you are a consistent draw, you are good. You are doing your job as a performer and getting people emotionally attached. However, as a one time show, the attendance and buyrates doesn't measure what people thought of the actual show. Rather, what they thought of the hype.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hate to burst your bubble, but WM X7 DID have Legends returning- lots of them!

The match was the "Gimmick Battle Royal" which the Iron Sheik won after eliminating Sargeant Slaughter (last time I looked, both of these men were considered "Legends" of WWE).

Yea because that match was a HUGE draw.... You're missing the point.

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

You're correlating two things that actually don't correlate.

If draw was in ANY way indicative of the quality of the show, then people would have to pay AFTER the show. They don't. The numbers is indicative of the quality of the HYPE of the show. This idea that higher attendance and numbers=better show is nuts. That measures how well the show was hyped. Now, over time this is true. If you are a consistent draw, you are good. You are doing your job as a performer and getting people emotionally attached. However, as a one time show, the attendance and buyrates doesn't measure what people thought of the actual show. Rather, what they thought of the hype.

Just saying that sometimes it doesnt mean a thing. You could have huge draw and still have a bad show(in terms of quality) and you could have a huge draw and still no good hype for the people to buy it. Look at WM19. They had Hogan vs Mcmahon, Rock vs Austin and still very low buyrate. So I say it depends more on advertisement then the legends. Draws help a lot, but you need good promotion for good buyrates...

 

[Cereal Killer]

Of course! Those statistics read everything out for you. It can't be just a coincidence that every time we have legends at Wrestlemania, the numbers show high.

What would Wrestlemania 28 have been like without The Rock, Undertaker, Triple H, Shawn Michaels and Chris Jericho? It's because stars aren't that big nowadays. I don't know why but they just aren't. The ratings, attendance figures, the wrestlers' skills all together are just unsatisfactory. Sure you have your Dolph Zigglers, your Cody Rhodes, your CM Punks and your John Cenas who are all talented but seriously, do any of them match up to the likes of Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart or Steve Austin?

So yes, they do need legends to sell Wrestlemania, simply because today's talent isn't good enough. They can do pretty decent but nothing life changing.

 

[Ruthless-RKO]

Maybe VKM and the writers think, screw the rest of the card and we'll focus on 1 wrestler and that 1 match..

I remember back like 10 years ago, more or less 2/3's of the card was heavily hyped, and now it's just like 3 matches that are hyped.. and the other matches have no backstory, or if it does, it's really shit.

Let's be honest though, it's the hype of the ppv e.g. bulding of the feuds and promos that actually get the ppv buys, because people purchase the event before they watch it, not after.. I don't get why some people don't get that.. I could say as soon as the Cena/Rock match was announced a year in advance, at least over 500,000 fans thought, 'Yeh, am defo going to order this ppv' I could be wrong, but then I could also be right.
-----------------------------
I think this years WrestleMania, although we haven't got any named matches yet! People are already thinking about ordering it simpy because they know Brock Lesnar, Undertaker, The Rock, John Cena and CM Punk will all have something to do with each other. Majority are not going to order it because of Kane, Big Show, Sheamus, Ziggler.. Which is a shame, because if they can't draw now, then when will they? I know for a fact VKM will not risk having a big time feud with lets say Ziggler and Rhodes.. Because they haven't made a big impact to even sell a ppv like Over The Limit.. Never mind WrestleMania..

 

[FlairFan2003]

There probably isnt enough star power on the show to interest enough casual fans to buy it without some major angle involving some legendary old timers. Fact is, Triple H-Taker had a lot to do with the success of the last two WM's alongside Rock's return. Also, you can see in the buyrate difference that two years ago just having Rock & Austin return in NON WRESTLING ROLES didnt really budge the number much from where the last few WMs had been, only having Rock WRESTLE added any buys.

As far as "Big money" matches left... Punk isnt big enough with the older and casual fans to be the top guy in a major match, maybe if he gets a win at The Rumble over Rock... Taker- Cena has appeal, but only if played really well where it legit looks like Cena can beat him and end the streak, otherwise people will not care. Lesnar is not a big draw, he has no ties to the 80's or 90s heydays and only was a brief part of the more recent run, Goldberg would be a bigger draw than him, better character, more popular, bigger star in a bigger time. Also, casual fans have no investment in Lesnar because you cant see him winning, would WWE really disrespect Taker by having some part time guy who barely made an impact in his career end the streak, a streak that HHH, HBK, Flair, Edge, etc couldnt end ? Fans wouldnt buy it and if WWE let it happen the few fans watching would revolt.

WWE needs some new faces to step up and become big with the audience but they also need more compelling television to expand the audience. Cena is basically Brett Hart PT 2, nice guy, good worker, reliable, not a larger than life figure but good enough to be a star in a downtime when people overall arent watching. Until some Rocks, Austins, etc start rising from the mid card and take hold of the audience it isnt getting any better for WWE anytime soon.