OK I was wrong with the facts. But from what I have come to know now, Cena is 2-1 in Cage matches with victories over Edge and Alex Riley and a loss to Sheamus via interference and Bret is 3-1 in Cage matches with a win over Owen Hart, Diesel( twice) and a loss to Sid via interference.
Im not sure which facts to debate with you and which to not, because you can't keep them straight. It' worth mentioning that Cena WON the cage match against Edge, even with interference. Heck, he had Edge freaking unconscious before Cade and Mudoch were interfering. Edge and Cena feuded for the entire YEAR and Cena beat the piss out of him so badly he was unconscious in the Cage match.Yet Iv conceded that Cena would likely lose the cage match, and you continue to go on about it, changing your facts every time. Come back when you get your story straight, ok?
Now I don't know about you but I rate Owen better than Riley, Diesel equal to Edge and Sid better than Sheamus.
Irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
OK while I admit that Bad News Brown isn't exactly someone very relevaant in the context of wrestling, he is better than Alex Riley in every concievable way.
Im not that worried about Alex Riley. Now youre comparing someone who was mostly irrelevant that Hart beat in a ladder match to someone Cena beat in a cage match. How is this relevant, exactly?
He is an Olympic Bronze medalist in Judo and was a good name outside the WWF. He won the most prestigious title in the Stampede Wrestling Promotion where this said match against Hart took place, not just once but four times. Alex Riley is a nobody, a big talking lackey. Are you comparing Alex Riley to the man who caused Andre the Giant to back off in a fight? Bret Hart defeated a main eventer in the Stampede Promotion in a ladder match. Cena defeated a jobber.
Again, relevance please? I don't care about the cage match, and the last time I checked, Hart defeated Brown in a ladder match. Good for him. As Ive stated repeatedly, Cena defeated Edge, the greatest ladder match competitor of all time, in his hometown, in a TLC match. Id say advantage Cena.
You cannot just use WWF as the sole company for the basis of your judgement here. Brown was one of the best talents in Stampede and Bret defeated him.
How was Brown in ladder matches? Exactly. How was Edge in ladder matches? We all know the answer to that one. He came into the WWF(E) and immediately began cutting his teeth in ladder matches in 1999. And Cena beat him 7 years later, when both were main eventers in the biggest company in the world. WWE(F) would pluc talent back in the day from Stampede, not the other way around. WWE= bigger company, Edge = better ladder match competitor in his sleep then BNB. Cena beat him,despite interference. Im sure he could handle Hart, especially since it's not by submission or pinfall.
Different styles yes but they are similar in one aspect that they do not tap out. Cena has tapped out only a handful of times in his career while Undertaker has only tapped out once. And who was that man? Bret Hart.
Cena tapped out only when he was in the mid-card, you're using a rediculous argument. Using that logic, I could say that the Hart of today would lose to Cena in 3 minutes in the first two matches. Since Cena has been in the prime of is career, he's yet to tap out.
In fact this is stupid. Who stands a better chance of tapping out? Cena or Undertaker? If you think it is Undertaker then either you are marking out or lying out of your skin.
Id say not Cena since he's been the face of the company and main evented every PPV and Raw since he's been healthy and hasn't tapped out since. John Cena in his prime doesn't tap out, period! Your Undertaker argument is irrelevant, once again, they're different competitors. Since Cena became the face of the company, he's yet to tap out. Period, end of story, no irrelevant, misconstrued, or just plain wrong fact you TRY to put out there says any different.
I do not know the exact number but "far more matches" would be an exaggeration. In fact I would say that both have lost very few matches. But the fact remains that Bret has made a man famous for not quitting ever, quit. How many times has Undertaker been defeated by submission? Just once and that was by Bret Hart.Cena can tap out to Hart. Bret invoked pain in the legs of an undead zombie who is not supposed to feel pain. Cena is still human. He can tap very well.
You might try not to acknowlegde the fact or try to downplay it but you cannot escape the fact. If Bret can make Undertaker tap, he can make anyone tap.
And since Cena won his first WWE title, how many times has he tapped out? Zero. Again, if you want to bring up his time in the mid-card, let's just make this the Cena of today vs the Hart of today. Am I being rediculous? Yes. But so are you insisting Cena would tap out.
The simple fact of the matter remains, Cena has yet to tap out in his prime and adopted the Never Give Up gimmick. He's not going to submit. Period.
You are dismissing the sharpshooter. I have seen indy nobodies get up from multiple Kendo stick shots and have seen many superstars do the same in WWE. How many guys have withstood Bret Hart's sharpshooter? I can remember Austin and that too he passed out.
No, Im not. The sharpshooter is one of the greatest submission moves in wrestling history. You know whats a more difficult hold to escape then the Sharpshooter? Handcuffs. Yet Cena was handcuffed to the ringpost taking kedo shot after kendo shot. This wasn't some indy sideshow with the Sandman and Justin Credible. He was handcuffed to the ring and didn't quit, and handcuffs are harder to escape then any hold a human being can put one in. Again, facts you just simple leave out.
Bret's sharpshooter>>>>>Kendo stick shots. Bret can make Cena tap.
Handcuffs>>>>>> Sharpshooter. This isn't about proving you're a big man here or anything, you've tried to make your point here over and again, and you've failed with posts littered with innacuracies and false claims. Cena wouldn't tap.
Did we even mention that only one of these matches could even end in submission? Hart could have Cena in the sharpshooter for 10 minutes bu if he's not escaping the cage or climbing a ladder, what good would it do? That would be NONE.
Actually it is not ony the fact that Hart was spent. Hart was pissed that though he had to retained the title fair and square he would have to wrestle again. His anger played a huge part here. You can see the disdain for Michaels on his face when he came back to the ring. He was trying to finish off Michaels quickly and that is where he made a mistake.
I don't care how Hart lost the match, as much as i care how he didnt win. And that was, in supposedly being the greatest technical wrestler ever against a man he's 1,000 the technical wrestler then, he couldn't gain a single pinfall or submission against him in an hour says alot.
Also the fact that he won against technically proficient wrestlers is a tribute to his stamina rather than his technical skill. Very often he did not even reverse holds. He sometimes just made it to the bottom rope by sheer will power. In Hart's case he could not even reach the bottom rope. He just stayed in the sharpshooter till the time expired. He withstood a lot of pain but he could not reverse the hold.
So did HBK tap out, or did he win the match? You tell me. After an hour, plus, which happened? We both know what happened. The great technical wrestler Bret Hart couldn't gain a single fall. And if you're talking about Cena and his wins against technical wrestlers, he reversed them all. The anklelock, the crossface, the Edge-E-Cution(a variaton of the sharpshooter), and the Walls, Cena' reversed them all, often into a submission of his own.
First off Angle is not better than Hart kayfabe wise. Bret Hart was the face of the company and no one broke free of the sharpshooter until Austin did so at WrestleMania. The ankle lock and crossface have been countered many times. Cena can hold his own against technical wrestler but Hart is not just any technical wrestler, he is THE technical wrestler here.
I never said that Angle was better then Hart was "kayfabe wise." If you want to twist my words for the 151029th time, go right ahead. I said "he's the bt comparison we have" and Angle couldn't make Cena submit from 2005-on, the only period that matters here. If Austin broke the sharpshooter, so could Cena. Austin was also a brawler but Cena is at least equally as strong as Austin.
Have Angle and Benoit ever been the face of the company? Well Hart has. By 2007 Benoit was a midcarder while Hart never slipped down to the midcard in the WWF. Nope defeating Hart is a whole different ball game than defeating Angle or Benoit.
Again, relevance? Angle has been in the main event picture of any company he's ever been in for his entire prime. Id say that's sufficient enough, and the fact that he won the World Title in WWE after chasing Cena for a year is testament to that. Benoit was a former World Champion and a submission specialist who also used the sharpshooter, and Cena defeated him, by submission.
Well you know how resilient HBK is and that was HBK's prime. Also there is the case that Hart released the sharpshooter as soon as the time limit expired. Maybe if he had it applied for a few more seconds HBK would have tapped out as HBK was showing no signs of being able to counter the move. That plus the sharpshooter had never been countered before.
Maybe, but, well, just,... I love those words. You know why? Because they're irrelevant. You can write your own story of what might have happened and it's just a sad attempt to prove your point. Plenty of men got to the ropes on Hart in the sharophooter, and beat him afterwards. Getting to the ropes is a counter, believe it or not. The same could be said for Cena's STFU, as noones gotten out of it either without getting to the ropes. It's been the only counter, a legitimate one at that, that's been used on the STFU in 7 years since Cena broke it out. Hart's only prayer would be to outmuscle the stronger Cena to the ropes, which he wouldn't. He'ld tap.
No, The biggest exaggeration is Cena somehow has a lesser chance of tapping out than The Undertaker
.
Cena hasn't tapped out in his prime. According to you, Undertaker has. That's all the proof I need.
Read the above post. A combination of HBK's prime and the fact tht Hart let the Sharpshooter go. And as you said technical wrestling is not all about submission wrestling. Also if HBK is such a good technical wrestler then why wasn't HE able to put Hart away either.
That's the thing. I never said HBK was Hart' equal as a technical wrestler, did I? Yet Hart never made him submit, not for an hour. Seeing how two of the three matches here couldnt end in submission anyway, thats a large weapon you can take out of Hart's arsenal. In the end, who won the hour long match between Bret and Shawn? That's what I thought.
Not as much as the Cena/ Undertaker thing you did.
Dude, you don't have to say the same thing over and over. I get your (incredibly false) point. This isn't a game of "I know you are, but what am I?" Its a debate. Be an adult about it kid.
One last time. If Taker tapped out in his prime, and Cena hasn't, there's your answer.
For a technical wrestler to be as good as Hart you would need him to be the face of the company for 2 to 3 years, his submission move should have been unbreakable for about 6-7 years and he should have the same variety of opponents that Hart beat.
Glad to see that you set the standard for what the face of the company should be.
Let's see, face of the company for 7 years? An unbreakable submission hold in the STFU(other then the ropes) for 7 years? Why, that sounds like John Cena! And he's not even in the discussion of great tecnical wrestlers. Beat everyone there is to beat? Yeah, that would be Cena. Name someone he HASN'T beaten. Name someone he HASN'T made tap out, at that. You can't.
Funny that even late in his career HBK did not lose a lot. Yes it is not comparable to his prime but it is not totally insignificant. Remember that he
beat your precious Cena just a few months earlier. He cannot have totally
lost it.
You're right, it's not insignificant. You know what is significant? The man Bret Hart couldn't make tap out, tapped out to John Cena in the main event of Wrestlemania 23. Why? Because the STFU has been an unbreakable hold. So the man who beat Bret Hart and didn't tap out in over an hour to Hart tapped to Cena in 30 minutes. Again, advantage Cena.
I just said that he stands a chance to make Cena submit in any type of match.
He can make Cena submit in a ladder match where there are no submissions? In a cage match where it's escape only? How? That's two of three matches in which the sharpshooter loses a great deal of effectiveness, because there would be no submission.
Yes there were guys who had stamina close to that of Hart but Hart generally won because he was the better athlete: ie he was more skilled and could outlast them. By that logic then we should throw Cena's stamina out of the window as well because by that logic guys like Edge and Orton have stamina equal to that of Cena.
Noone has outlasted Cena in that type of environment and you know it. The proof is in Cena's records in said matches. 1-0 in Ironman matches compared to Hart's 0-1. 3-0 in I Quit matches. 1-0 in Ladder matches. 3-1 in EC matches. And again, 2-1 in LMS matches, where he only lost by being chokeslammed through a spotlight. Ive asked the question before, and Ill ask it again, since you choose to ignore it. What would happen to Hart if he went through a spotlight?
Cena's track record in those matches speak for itself.
Why thank you for agreeing on the point I have been trying to make. Hart has a better chance of conserving energy than Cena because of his style!
It's not going to matter after Cena has beaten the piss out of him in the street fight. Do you really see Cena as the backing off type? That would let Hart rest or conserve energy? Because after he pinned him in the street fight, he'ld be right back on him in the cage match.
Him defeating Orton 6 times makes me question Orton's stamina actually. And the match was "anything goes" for both men actually. Because Cena had to face the environment but he could use the environment to his advantage as well. So it works both ways. It is not that you require more stamina to win an "anything goes" match than a normal match.
Gee really, does it? I didnt know that! It was only held in my hometown and I was there, bud. Like I said, youre fighting your opponent and the elements. Being thrown off a stage and put through a table and getting back up requires a heck of alot more stamina then a normal wrestling match. And the coup de grace(finishing touch)? Cena won the match by submission, in regulation. Orton couldn't hold on with Cena's submission move when HBK could to Hart's. Now you tell me whose is more unbreakable....
And Austin may have been a rising midcarder but he was built up as Hart's equal in this match. We were led to believe that Austin had a great chance of winning this match.
Yes, in a submissions match. It wasn't a street fight with Austin, it was a submissions match. Austin was a rising mid-carder, but he was still a mid-carder. He wasn't the "Stone Cold" Stve Austin of his prime. His prime began a year later.
Again it was an "I Quit" match. The victory could be gotten by submission but not only by submission. If anything it is even more demanding than a streetfight.
Im well aware of what an "I Quit" match is. Cena is 3-0 in them.
1. Judgement 2005 against JBL.
2. Breaking Point 2009 against Randy Orton.
3. Over the Limit 2010 against Batista.
All main eventers when Cena defeated them.
Also when has Cena faced someone like Bret " a technical wrestler par excellence" in a streetfight?
That would be Kurt Angle. I assume a "No DQ" match works for you, right?
1. Cena lost an "I Quit" match to JBL.
Wrong. No he didn't. But again, don't let the facts get in the way of you argument.
Cena WON that match. How many mistakes do you need to make in facts before I just stop taking you seriously altogether? Just wath the end and we'll see.
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2. Bret Hart is not just a brawler. He is also a very good technical wrestler and has shown in the past that a technical wrestler can win a hardcore match with ease. He has defeated some of the best brawlers of his day and age in a streetfight/ no holds barred type of matchup. So why should he fall short against Cena?
Noone wins a street fight with ease. Bret Hart never did. Seriously, what street fight match did Hart win with ease? None. All street fights are hard fought battles, by nature. Look at Cena vs JBL, above, as an example. Cena would win because he was more powerful then Hart, and would be able to use that power against Hart. Because in the end, we've never seen ANYONE overpower Cena. Can't say the same for Hart. Cena's strength, power, and aggression would be too much in the street fight. Youre wrong on both counts, again.
I gave the example of Bad News Brown because Bret had defeated him in a ladder match. And, as I have pointed out earlier Brown was a pretty big deal at Calgary where the match took place.
Cena defeated Edge in a TLC match in Edge's hometown. When you look at things in light of that, his wn over Bad News Brown just doesn't mean much in comparison, does it? No.
And finally I cannot help it if Hart has not participated in talent that in your opinion cannot rival Edge.
You're correct. Hart DIDN'T participate AGAINST talent the likes of Edge in a ladder match. And because of that, Hart would be at a disadvantage. Cena won one, for the title, with his career in essence on the line. It doesn't get more impressive then that, and Cena would be able to take out the man who beat Bad News Brown.
Bad News Brown was a brawler, very much like Cena and also a big deal in Calgary. HBK is generally regarded as one of the greatest ladder match performers of all time. There is also the fact that Hart can weaken Cena's legs and leave him unable to climb the ladder.
And Cena could do the same to Hart with the STFU. Hart wouldn't be able to keep the Sharpshooter on Cena long enough to weaken him. Who have you ever seen apply a submission to Cena that he couldn't power out of? Even Batista, who was far stronger then Hart, couldnt keep Cena down with the Rings of Saturn. Cena would power out of the Sharpshooter like he has every other move. And again, I have to repeat myself. That was HBK's first ladder match, against Hart, before his prime. Bad News Brown is nothing compared to an in-his-prime Edge in his own hometown. If Cena beat Edge despite interference, Im sure he could defeat Hart. Im sure.
What is your arguement for Cena? That he has defeated Edge who wrestles nothing like Hart does.
That he beat the greatest ladder match competitor of all time in a ladder match in his own hometown with his job on the line for the title. The highest stakes against the greatest ladder match competitor of all time, despite interference, and Cena won. Edge is a good technical wrestler but technical wrestling means jack in a ladder match. That's more then any argument you could make for Hart.
OK let me tell you whom Edge defeated in singles ladder matches prior to Cena's victory. Midcarders like Christian and Matt Hardy and an old washed up Ric Flair. By that logic even he was no great shakes at ladder matches either at that point.
Edge was a mid-carder when he defeated many of those men. He also beat the Undertaker, who you casually left off your list. He beat Kane and Rey Mysterio and Del Rio in one match. When did Hart win a four way, or three way ladder match? How about a tag team ladder match? He didn't, because he never competed in them. Again, youre out of your element here when you try to argue facts with me.
And yes HBK too has participated in very few ladder matches. He has participated in one since he came back and that was against Jericho which he lost by interference. I take quality over quantity every day. Michaels is certainly the greatest ladder match performer judging by the quality of his matches.
That's personal opinion, and nothing more. Find me an Edge ladder match that lacked quality. He even carried a "washed up" Ric Flair to a great TLC match. There's a heckuva alot of quality in there. And again, for the final time, HBK lost to Hart in his first ladder match, while Cena beat the WWE Champion in his prime. But continue to ignore the facts.
Cena has no sort of advantage over Hart in a streetfight. Just because Hart has fewer matches does not mean he would perform badly against Cena. He has defeated very good brawlers possibly better than a lot of opponents that Cena has faced in this sort of an environment.
Just power, strength, and experience, that's all. I didn't say he would perform badly, I in fact said that no street fight is every easy. No cage match is ever easy, and no ladder match is ever easy. This is a very close matchup, and Ive made that clear over and again. Cena is primarily a brawler, and one of the all-time greats at that. His strength and power along with his experience factor and the fact that the man takes a beating like no other and just doesnt stay down certainly weigh in his favor.
Hart can win the ladder match. He can weaken Cena's legs and leave him in a mess. Hart has performed well in ladder matches irrespective of what LSN has to say. Also it might not even come down to a ladder match.
LSN has never said Hart hasn't performed well in ladder matches. LSN has never said that thi wouldn't be close. You're the one making outrageous statements like it wouldn't come down to a ladder match, like you just did. LSN has given Hart far more credit then you've given Cena. But overall Cena's power, strength, and experience in said matches with regards to his opponents compared to Hart's would give him the slight edge, in my mind.
Just because you cannot see it does not mean it cannot happen. I knew that your Cena markdom would come in way eventually that will blind you from seeing the truth.
Vote Hart!!!
People are voting Hart,and some are voting Cena. Im not here trying to convince anyone of anything, Im simply debating you. There's no "markdom" here, otherwise Id be misconstruing facts and burying Hart. I didn't do that. I said in my opinion this would be a very close matchup, but in the end, Cena would win, and I justified it. I voted for Cena as a result of that logic. Close matchup, but Cena wins it. Again, I said it wasn't a vote against Hart as much as a vote for Cena. Hart is one of the all-time greats, but I think these matches with their stipulations favor Cena 2-1. Im out.