Houston Region, Fourth Round: 3 Stages of Hell: (1) Bret Hart vs. (5) John Cena

[Burnout]

Two icons. Two icons from different era's. Two icons from different era's that I love.

It's a tough one. In Hart you have one of the best technical wrestlers ever to step into the squared circle, and In Cena you have one of the strongest and most resilient wrestlers. As someone mentioned on the first page, the gimmick matches are indeed a tossup. Both have had success in each type of match, John Cena is a fantastic brawler, Bret hart has beaten probably the best brawler of all time, Steve Austin. John Cena has won cage matches, so has Bret Hart. John Cena has won matches involving ladders, well look at that, so has Bret Hart. So the match could go either way, but I'm giving it to Bret Hart, 2-1. Cena wins the street fight, but Bret comes back and takes the cage and ladder match.

Bret is by far the better wrestler as I see it. Cena is good in the ring, and can put on some entertaining matches, but Bret has had many more classics in the ring. Bret is from the tougher era. Look at the competition there was during the 90's. You had Hogan, Michaels, Savage, Flair, Taker, Sting, Goldberg, Austin and Hennig to name a few. All of these are bigger stars than most of the stars in the current era, the guys who Cena faces. In my opinion, if Cena was around back then, he wouldn't get anywhere near the top of the pile, ever. He just wouldn’t have had the in-ring quality to go with most of the top guys. Nowadays Cena is all powerful and dominant, and has beaten his fair share of great superstars, but his list pales in comparison to the list of those who Bret Hart has conquered.
Cena is better on the mic, but Bret can do his talking in the ring, so I will vote Bret.

 

[JGlass]

Oy vey, this may be the toughest decision to make yet. Both dominant wrestlers, both multiple time world champions, both the faces of the company at their time, and two of the greatest ever in my opinion.

No doubt that Bret is the smarter, more technical wrestler. That's not to say Hart can't brawl, but he'll always be remembered as submission specialist, which is something that can't be said for Cena. Sure, he has the STF, but his tank runs dry after that one.

That said, Cena is much more powerful than Bret, and strength is much more useful in all three of these matches than technical ability. This is a guy who FU'd The Big Show and Edge simultaneously... that's freak strength right there. Bret Hart better watch the fuck out, because with that type of power, Cena could very well end him after the first match.

Right now, I'm leaning Cena, but it's still very much up in the air.

 

[LSN80]

Actually I was talking about this:

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and again in this triple threat
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I see no Eric Bischoff or screw job in either of these, just John Cena tapping out.

And by the way, he also tapped out to this:

[YOUTUBE]LcMArePIbo8[/YOUTUBE]

So....you want to go back to the time where Cena was a mid-carder. You know, before he won 9 WWE Chaampionships and all? Great argument there. Good job ignoring the fact that I pointed out the fallacy in your argument that Cena's lost his only cage match, seeing how he WON his first. He beat Edge, who was a main event wrestler at the time, and has been until this day. Owen Hart, for as good as he was, never cracked above the upper-mid card. Not to mention Cena beat both Batista and Umaga in LMS matches, and ONLY lost to Edge in one because he was chokeslammed through a spotlight. So a couple of questions here.

Could you see Hart answering the ten count if he was chokeslammed through the spotlight?

I was clear in my post I was referring to the 2005 Angle/Cena feud when I talked about tapping out and their record versus each other. Did Cena tap out to Angle then? Because all I care about is Cena in his prime, not when he was in the mid-card. Let me answer it. He won a submissions match Angle was in.

Provide all the video you want of Cena during his mid-card days, but they're completely irrelevant here. Im still leaning towards Bret, but I want to hear one more good argument either way.

 

[El Rev sXe]

I'm not sure who could win this match, but damn it I will let my " I hate Cena" get in the way.

1st fall: Cena has it. The guy is a fucking brawler after all, and if he is angry (like Hulk), well he can destroy anyone in his path, just ask JBL, Orton and Barrett. Here it wouldn't surprise me if Cena does an AA on a table/steel steps in order to get the first 1,2,3.

2nd fall: Bret Hart nails it. Like many already said, there's no way in hell that Cena would tap to the sharpshooter. However it is important to point the match between Bret and Austin, where the latter passed out. I think this same exact thing would happen. I don't remember if there is a rope break in a cage match, but even if Cena arrives to the ropes, he has nowhere to go and Bret would not let go until Cena passes out.

3rd fall: well this is the most difficult one to say. After two brutal and exhausting matches, who can have the amount of energy in order to climb the ladder? Fuck I just contradicted myself, Cena has more stamina that almost anyone. Just for that I say Cena wins.

I'm open for changing my mind, I want to!!! Give me some great reasons for why Hart would win the ladder match.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Not only has Bret taken down Owen inside of a Steel Cage, he's beaten Diesel--twice. Diesel, in early 1996, was just as big of deal as Edge is right now.

I was actually aware of this, but apparently the guy I was originally debating wasn't so I wasn't going to provide him with ammo if he wasn't competent enough to research it himself. Nonetheless, I still say that the gimmick aspect of the match is irrelevant as they're both evenly matched.

Stamina is equal, if anything. Both have had Iron Man matches, and both have had lengthy runs in the Royal Rumble. Also, Bret won the King of the Ring, and a tournament for the WCW title, where he beat Sting and Chris Benoit in the same night. If Bret doesn't have the advantage in stamina, it's at least equal.

Equal? Ok I'll give yo that. As long as you don't try to argue that Hart could outlast Cena, because no one else has been able to. I've never seen Cena succumb to exhaustion in a match before. He's won 3 Elimination Chamber matches.

Twice the draw? That's a big stretch. Cena has drawn better numbers, but nowhere near twice as much as Bret.

The only criteria I was really using was TV ratings. The ratings today are close to twice what they were when Bret was on top. Still, perhaps I was a bit overzealous.

Not to mention WWE has had absolutely no real competition since Cena took over as face of the WWE.

During the 3 years that Hart was on top (93-96) WCW was hardly any competition to the WWE. They were just as bad as TNA is today. WCW took the reigns around the time that Michaels was starting to go to the top, so I believe he was truly the top star when WCW was killing the WWE.

Maybe he hasn't, but I have

It kind of happens like this whenever someone isn't just talking out of their ass. Good work.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Cena lost his only Cage Match.....against Sheamus. The part youre either forgetting or conveiently leavin out is that Cena defeated Edge in a cage match to retain the WWE Title three weeks aftr Unforgiven 2006, and won a cage match just 3 weeks ago against Alex Riley to get him fired as Miz' apprentice. I give the edge to Bret in the Cage match anyway, because I see that as more or less a straight up one on one match as neiter man is likey to be bringing backup here, and Hart is the superior wrestler given that standard. But Cena is 2-1(or 4-1 dependin on how you want to slice it) in Cage Matches, so if you're going by record alone, then Cena is the choice. Both matches he won in the cage were with heay interference as well, so Cena has shown the ability in Cage matches(and many others) to be able to neutralize interference. I still give the edge to Bret in the cage as I stated earlier, but figured this information needed pointed out.

Ah I forgot about the match with Edge. That makes Cena 1-1 over there as well. You can choose to count out the match against Riley because Riley is just a jobber. An Elimination Chamber match too is a different environment. There are 6 guys firstly and you can win by pinfall.

I'd still say though that the advantage lies with Hart. Hart can weaken Cena's legs by applying a variety of moves. I see it ending with both guys trying to climb out of the cage but Cena falling down with his leg giving away.

Did you miss the hour long match that Cena had with HBK on Raw two weeks following Wrestlemania23 in London as well? I think you're severely underestimating Cena's stamina and hs ability to go toe to toe with some great technical wrestlers. I wouldn't put HBK in the same class as Hart in terms of technical wrestling, but he's certainly no slouch. And if anything, his Iron Man Match with Orton was MORE physically demanding then the Ironman match Shawn and Bret had because of the "Anything Goes" stipulation. Not to mention Cena won the match and all, while Bret lost his.

HBK has great stamina certainly but he is not a great technical wrestler. He knows all styles well but technical skills aren't neccesarily his forte. He has lost quite a lot to technical guys and he hasn't benefitted a lot when he has tried to wrestle in a technical style. A good example would be the IronMan match against Bret. HBK actually did not get a pinfall or submission by working on Bret's arm. He only won by his Superkick which is hardly a technical move. He does not compare to Bret in terms of technical skills. Also there is his match against Orton at Unforgiven 2007 where HBK had his Superkick banned. There too HBK tried to win by applying submission holds but he was not successful.

I am not underestimating Cena's stamina but I think you are overestimating it. Sure Cena never gives up and stuff like that but Hart has had numerous long matches and tournaments to his name. He wrestled twice at WrestleMania, has performed well in Royal Rumbles even after coming in early, participated in an iron man match and won tournaments in both WWF and WCW. Most people are going to remember Cena's stamina because he is wrestling currently.

Suprisingly, the only one of these matches that Cena lost clean was to JBL. He lost he LMS match to Edge only due to Big Show chokeslamming him through a spotlight, which i have a hard time seeing Bret getting up forom either. He took a steel chair from Chavo in his parking lot brawl with Eddy, and RVD had assistance from Edge and Paul Heyman in their Extreme Rules match. He won his other two LMS matches against Batista and Umaga, is 2-0 in "I Quit" matches, and 2-0 in chair matches. Again, with interence thrown out the door as I expect both would wrestle a clean match, Cena has far more experience in matches of this style, and without interferenc, he'ld vitually have a clean record as well.

Experience is a non factor actually because wrestling a hardcore match is hardly rocket science. Both guys have experience and that is what counts.

Again as you mentioned Cena has lost cleanly to JBL and that too when JBL was not exactly in his prime. Hart has defeated Diesel in this sort of match in his prime and defeated Stone Cold when he was close to his prime. If anything the match has to faavor Bret. Bret has defeated the best brawler ever in this type of a match and as good as Cena is, he is not better than Stone Cold.

Nick did a great job of swaying me towards Hart, but Ive realized quite a few things after going through your post. Im stil going with Cena in the street fight, Hart the Cage Match, and Im stuck on the ladder match. Someone truly sell me on this one. As far as I can recall, Hart is 1-0(Michaels in 92) and Cena is 1-0 as well.(Edge in a TLC in 2006). But right now, until convinced otherwise, I'll take Hart's tournament experience over Cena's lack of unless someone shows me otherwise. Nicely done Nick.

Actually Hart has wrestled in a lot of ladder matches in his Calgary Stampede Wrestling Promotion. He has also won a ladder match against Bad News Brown who was also a very good brawler though not in the same league as Cena.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Equal? Ok I'll give yo that. As long as you don't try to argue that Hart could outlast Cena, because no one else has been able to. I've never seen Cena succumb to exhaustion in a match before. He's won 3 Elimination Chamber matches.

No they are not at all equal. Tell me who has wrestled twice at a WrestleMania? Tell me who has won three tournaments in two different companies? They are evenly matched when it comes to Royal Rumbles and Ironman matches but you just cannot put these two achievements of Hart out of perspective.

Also Cena may have won 3 Elimination Chamber matches but none of them have lasted more than 33 minutes. In the matches which lasted more than 30 minutes Cena has entered at number 4 and number 6 respectively. That means he lasted close to 25 mnutes in both matches.

Bret Hart lasted close to 47 minutes in the KOTR 1993 event. Yes Hart still has better stamina.

In fact it is funny when you talk about exhaustion. The thing is in the ironman match that Cena had, Cena was defeated 5 times. That means he was pinned once every 12 minutes. Sure he defeated Orton but that only makes me question Orton's stamina. Bret was pinned only once in over an hour and that too after two superkicks. Again Bret has better stamina because he has shown that he can last for well over an hour without getting pinned, unlike John Cena.

The only criteria I was really using was TV ratings. The ratings today are close to twice what they were when Bret was on top. Still, perhaps I was a bit overzealous.

You are wrong. The difference was maybe a point at the most but on most occasions it was not even that. Also WCW got similar ratings during that time. That suggests no that it has something to do with the era of wrestling and not the actual superstars themselves.

Here is the proof.

http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfraw.htm

Also what do you say for the mixed reactions that Cena gets while Bret got cheered unanimously except when he started feuding with Austin. Nope Bret was as big as Cena. The difference is WWE is bigger today.

During the 3 years that Hart was on top (93-96) WCW was hardly any competition to the WWE. They were just as bad as TNA is today. WCW took the reigns around the time that Michaels was starting to go to the top, so I believe he was truly the top star when WCW was killing the WWE.

When has TNA matched WWE in ratings? WCW had similar ratings during that time. Both companies averaged around 2.5 during the same period of time.

The war was on but it had still not escalated to what it became in 1996.

I don't care how many moves Hart knows, There's very few that can put Cena down and I've never seen any from Hart that are capable. He isn't making him tap out, that's fact. The only way to counter the STF is by getting to the ropes or with strength. Hart would only manage to get to the ropes so many times before he is just unable to use his strngth anymore. He may not tap out, but he sure isn't going to counter it every time.

That is what you are thinking. Tell me had you thought that the sleeperhold could be countered into a pin until Hart did it? Trust me Hart is very smart and has the ability to think on his feet. He will find a way that we may not be able to think.

Also you are assuming that Cena will be able to lock in the STF. Hart can counter it much before he fully locks it in. He may counter it just when Cena grabs the leg and maybe perform a pinning combination.

Also the move that can keep Cena down? How about the sharpshooter. A move that has rarely been countered, made the second biggest superstar ever pass out and made Undertaker, an undead man tap.

It kind of happens like this whenever someone isn't just talking out of their ass. Good work.

You should think of applying that logic for yourself.

 

[Nate DaMac]

No they are not at all equal. Tell me who has wrestled twice at a WrestleMania? Tell me who has won three tournaments in two different companies? They are evenly matched when it comes to Royal Rumbles and Ironman matches but you just cannot put these two achievements of Hart out of perspective.

Also Cena may have won 3 Elimination Chamber matches but none of them have lasted more than 33 minutes. In the matches which lasted more than 30 minutes Cena has entered at number 4 and number 6 respectively. That means he lasted close to 25 mnutes in both matches.

Time isn't everything when it comes to endurance. Tell me, how many of those matches that you named off took place in a structure as brutal as an Elimination Chamber? I'd say going 25 minutes in 3 of those matches is more than enough reason to say they're even at best. Cena's matches don't go as long as Hart's because he's simply better at winning.

Bret Hart lasted close to 47 minutes in the KOTR 1993 event. Yes Hart still has better stamina.

They are equal at best, my point has already been proven.

In fact it is funny when you talk about exhaustion. The thing is in the ironman match that Cena had, Cena was defeated 5 times. That means he was pinned once every 12 minutes. Sure he defeated Orton but that only makes me question Orton's stamina. Bret was pinned only once in over an hour and that too after two superkicks. Again Bret has better stamina because he has shown that he can last for well over an hour without getting pinned, unlike John Cena.

John Cena has also gone an hour before being pinned by Shawn Michaels. Once again, playing field is level.

I'll go ahead and skip the ratings stuff because you've proven me wrong. Kudos.

Also what do you say for the mixed reactions that Cena gets while Bret got cheered unanimously except when he started feuding with Austin. Nope Bret was as big as Cena. The difference is WWE is bigger today.

You have got to be fucking kidding me. There are only 2 people in modern wrestling that are bigger than Cena, and that is Hogan and Austin. No one has sold more merchandise, seats, PPVs, nothing. Hart isn't a hair on Cena's nutsack.

That is what you are thinking. Tell me had you thought that the sleeperhold could be countered into a pin until Hart did it? Trust me Hart is very smart and has the ability to think on his feet. He will find a way that we may not be able to think.

Also you are assuming that Cena will be able to lock in the STF. Hart can counter it much before he fully locks it in. He may counter it just when Cena grabs the leg and maybe perform a pinning combination.

Yeah, just no. Cena has made much stronger and much smarter men tap to the STF. Hart's no better.

Also the move that can keep Cena down? How about the sharpshooter. A move that has rarely been countered, made the second biggest superstar ever pass out and made Undertaker, an undead man tap.

JOHN CENA DOESN'T TAP!!!!!! Have you been paying attention at all? Don't pull up some horseshit of Cena tapping when he was a mere mid carder unless you want me to whip out some footage of Hart getting his ass kicked by The Mountie. We're talking Primes here and Cena absolutely does not tap out. The Sharpshooter is as relevant as a fucking hip toss in this match.

And the Austin point is irrelevant as well. He was still a mere mid carder at that point.

You should think of applying that logic for yourself.

Don't start getting all butt hurt now. It's all in fun.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

I feel this one favours Cena. Bret has a mean streak that got him past the Big Show last round and I'm sure we'd see it again, but Cena's like an unstoppable force, with Bret not really being an unmovable object. Street Fight rules I'd give to Cena. John's been involved in a lot of gimmick matches similar to this and his record is strong for the most part. I'd simply see him using his power to his advantage there. The cage would go to Bret in my eyes. Bret doesn't have to make Cena submit (which he flat out doesn't do as a main eventer) or even pin him to win this. He could escape after breaking Cena's back/neck down. That leads us to the ladder match, this is where I had the most difficulty. Cena's beaten the king of ladder matches in Edge, while Bret does have a good record also, but I think Cena's power once again plays to his advantage here and I think he'd take this one by the slightest of margins. I think I'm voting Cena, but I'm not 100% sure yet.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

You have got to be fucking kidding me. There are only 2 people in modern wrestling that are bigger than Cena, and that is Hogan and Austin. No one has sold more merchandise, seats, PPVs, nothing. Hart isn't a hair on Cena's nutsack.

I am not neccesarily talking only about merch or ratings. The point is that Bret was the face of the company at one point of time just as Cena is today. Is Cena the bigger star? Undoubtedly so. But Cena has more than just a couple of things in his favor, a wider TV audience and a lack of competition to name a few. Maybe in another era Hart would have been as popular as Cena but the fact is that he was indeed a face of the company just as Cena is.

Cena is the bigger star but Hart is not someone small enough to be just dismissed in front of Cena. It is not like Hulk Hogan and Edge from the other thread.

Yeah, just no. Cena has made much stronger and much smarter men tap to the STF. Hart's no better.

Stronger certainly. But smarter? I do not think so. Very few guys are as smart as Bret is and I certainly do not buy this statement unless you show me someone who regularly wins matches by ingenuity whom Cena has defeated.

JOHN CENA DOESN'T TAP!!!!!! Have you been paying attention at all? Don't pull up some horseshit of Cena tapping when he was a mere mid carder unless you want me to whip out some footage of Hart getting his ass kicked by The Mountie. We're talking Primes here and Cena absolutely does not tap out. The Sharpshooter is as relevant as a fucking hip toss in this match.

I am not even talking about what happened when John was a midcarder. You know someone else who does not tap out, EVER? The Undertaker. And Bret has made him tap to the sharpshooter. If he can make Undertaker tap out, he sure as hell stands a chance with Cena.

And the Austin point is irrelevant as well. He was still a mere mid carder at that point.

Yes but he was built up as an equal in this matchup. The build up centered around how Bret can make Austin tap but Austin is so ruthless that he can make Bret quit by beating the living daylights out of him.

Don't start getting all butt hurt now. It's all in fun.

Glad to hear that.

 

[LSN80]

Ah I forgot about the match with Edge. That makes Cena 1-1 over there as well. You can choose to count out the match against Riley because Riley is just a jobber. An Elimination Chamber match too is a different environment. There are 6 guys firstly and you can win by pinfall.

C'Mon now. Either a match took place, or it didn't. I seem to remember the match with Riley main eventing Raw 3 weeks ago, it's not a throwawy match if it's on TV. I don't follow the "pick and choose" logic you're applying when it goes to what matches we take into account, and which we don't. I never said anything about an Elimination Chamber match, but Cena is 3-1 in those as well. And most cage matches, specifically the first two Cena were in, were winable by pinfall, submission, or escaping the cage.

I'd still say though that the advantage lies with Hart. Hart can weaken Cena's legs by applying a variety of moves. I see it ending with both guys trying to climb out of the cage but Cena falling down with his leg giving away.

And Ive said the same thing about 3 times Rattlesnake. Ive never disputed the belief that Hart would win the cage match. I simply said you were selling Cena short when it came to Cage Matches. Let's make this clear: Cena isn't going to tap out to the Sharpshooter. There's generally no rope breaks in Cage Matches, so we could see a pass out sort of scenario, but there's absolutely no way on earth Cena is tapping out here.

HBK has great stamina certainly but he is not a great technical wrestler. He knows all styles well but technical skills aren't neccesarily his forte. He has lost quite a lot to technical guys and he hasn't benefitted a lot when he has tried to wrestle in a technical style. A good example would be the IronMan match against Bret. HBK actually did not get a pinfall or submission by working on Bret's arm. He only won by his Superkick which is hardly a technical move.

And how many pinfalls/submissions did the superior technical wrestler in Bret Hart get in that IronMan match against Michaels? That would be zero. Michaels has lost to many technical wrestlers, but for everyone you would name he lost to, he's also beaten. He lost to Kurt Angle at Wrestlemania, but beat him the next month at No Mercy. He won the IronMan match against Bret Hart. He's lost to Chris Benoit, but he's beaten him too. You severely underestimate Michaels ability to adapt his style to his opponent and wrestle his way. Michaels wasn't an excellent technical wrestler, but he was a darn good one.

He does not compare to Bret in terms of technical skills. Also there is his match against Orton at Unforgiven 2007 where HBK had his Superkick banned. There too HBK tried to win by applying submission holds but he was not successful.

Unforgiven 2007 was Cena vs Orton where Cena was disqualified so perhaps you want to try again? The match was at Survivor Series 2007. Just because he didn't win the match doesn't mean he wasn't successful at utilizing technical wrestling. Technical wrestling is about far more then just the utilization of submission holds, and you seem to be confusing that fact as well. Anyway, none of these matches are submission matches, and if they were, it certainly would be advantage Cena, simply for the fact Cena wouldn't tap out.

I am not underestimating Cena's stamina but I think you are overestimating it.

No, Im not. Find someone in WWE with superior stamina and conditioning today then John Cena. He's a former college football player, a sport that demands superior conditioning. Again, I point to the No Countouts, No DQ's, Anything Goes 60 minute Ironman match with Orton. I point to his hour long match with HBK in London on Raw in 2007. How exactly am I overestimating his stamina when Im pointing to matches where he went an hour, some in devastating environments? The TLC match with Edge was 45 minutes. Im not saying anything about Cena's "Never Give Up" attitude, Im pointing to his ability to wrestle long matches at the same pace throughout. Id really like to know how Im overestimating his stamina.

Sure Cena never gives up and stuff like that but Hart has had numerous long matches and tournaments to his name. He wrestled twice at WrestleMania, has performed well in Royal Rumbles even after coming in early, participated in an iron man match and won tournaments in both WWF and WCW. Most people are going to remember Cena's stamina because he is wrestling currently.

So wrestling at Wrestlemania twice= great stamina? Cena's wrestled at seven Wrestlemania's, so using that logic, his stamina in over 3 times that of Hart's. I know what youre getting at, but youre not getting there effectively. Cena's WON a Royal Rumble, and performed well in several others despite entering early in many, including 2011's. I remember Hart's stamina, and he was an excellent athlete. I wasn't knocking it whatsoever. But to simply put over Hart's stamina without truly examining Cena's for what it is is trying to play on a field that isn't level. Give Cena his due, there's NO doubt that he could easily go 60 minutes+, as he's done it before.

Experience is a non factor actually because wrestling a hardcore match is hardly rocket science. Both guys have experience and that is what counts.

There is strategy that goes into wrestling a street fight match. One would prepare differently to face a Big Show in that environment then they would a Bret Hart, would they not? So having seen and defeated various opponents of various skill sets does play a factor, and it's one that Cena has quite a bit of experience in. Again, not knocking Hart here, he beat Diesel in a No-DQ when Nash was in his prime. But what Cena does best is brawl, and he's done plenty of it.

Again as you mentioned Cena has lost cleanly to JBL and that too when JBL was not exactly in his prime. Hart has defeated Diesel in this sort of match in his prime and defeated Stone Cold when he was close to his prime. If anything the match has to faavor Bret. Bret has defeated the best brawler ever in this type of a match and as good as Cena is, he is not better than Stone Cold.

That's one match. For every loss to JBL, I can point to wins over Batista and Umaga, who were in their prime. Umaga was in the middle of a year long undefeated streak, and who stopped him? That would be Cena. Cena also beat the top heel in the company in Randy Orton in an "I Quit" match, as well as an "in his prime" JBL(if he had one). There's no way that a street fight favors Bret Hart, and you're really grasping at straws here. While Bret was by no means a bad brawler/fighter, Cena is an excellent one. This match is easily Advantage: Cena, and I have ten more examples if you really want them.

Actually Hart has wrestled in a lot of ladder matches in his Calgary Stampede Wrestling Promotion. He has also won a ladder match against Bad News Brown who was also a very good brawler though not in the same league as Cena.

Bad News Brown and a wrestling territory is the best argument youre going to give me for as to why Bret would beat Cena in a ladder match? Cena handed Edge his only one on one defeat in a TLC match, ever, with Lita running interference for Edge. Ill take a victory over one of, if not the greatest ladder match competitors in Edge over winning a Ladder Match in Calgary or beating Bad News Brown. Brown was average in EVERY way. If this is just a case of you disliking Cena, that's fine, and feel free to say so. You can vote on whatever criteria you like. Im going to try and stick to a more facts based approach myself.

So here's my decision. Cena wins the street fight with an FU to Hart. Hart evens the score in the steel cage when he gets Cena in the sharpshooter and doesnt let go, and Cena can't get out. But here I will use Cena's "Never Give Up" attitude, and it won't be as if Cena makes an incredible comeback here. His legs are weakened, but he can still tip over a ladder. And because of his stamina and incredible leg strength, I see Cena outlasting Hart, slowly climbing the ladder alongside Hart, and sending Hart for a long tumble down after a ferocious FU from the top. Cena wins this.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

C'Mon now. Either a match took place, or it didn't. I seem to remember the match with Riley main eventing Raw 3 weeks ago, it's not a throwawy match if it's on TV. I don't follow the "pick and choose" logic you're applying when it goes to what matches we take into account, and which we don't. I never said anything about an Elimination Chamber match, but Cena is 3-1 in those as well. And most cage matches, specifically the first two Cena were in, were winable by pinfall, submission, or escaping the cage.

Oh come on now. You know where Riley stands. Just because you main event a TV event does not mean that you become a permanent main eventer. Anyway that point is moot anyway because Bret has defeated Diesel twice in a cage match anyway. So from the data we have at hand Bret has defeated Diesel and Owen Hart in Cage matches while Cena has defeated Edge and Alex Riley in them. It is upto the reader to decide which accomplishment is better.

Also I know that Cage matches are winnable by pinfall but but in the earlier round of this tournament KB stipulated that Cage matches could only be won by escaping the cage.

And Ive said the same thing about 3 times Rattlesnake. Ive never disputed the belief that Hart would win the cage match. I simply said you were selling Cena short when it came to Cage Matches. Let's make this clear: Cena isn't going to tap out to the Sharpshooter. There's generally no rope breaks in Cage Matches, so we could see a pass out sort of scenario, but there's absolutely no way on earth Cena is tapping out here.

I remember someone named The Undertaker tapping out to the sharpshooter. I have never seen him tap again. So yes like I told Nate if Bret can make Undertaker tap he can make Cena tap as well.

And how many pinfalls/submissions did the superior technical wrestler in Bret Hart get in that IronMan match against Michaels? That would be zero. Michaels has lost to many technical wrestlers, but for everyone you would name he lost to, he's also beaten. He lost to Kurt Angle at Wrestlemania, but beat him the next month at No Mercy. He won the IronMan match against Bret Hart. He's lost to Chris Benoit, but he's beaten him too. You severely underestimate Michaels ability to adapt his style to his opponent and wrestle his way. Michaels wasn't an excellent technical wrestler, but he was a darn good one.

Sure Michaels won but in most cases it was not due to his technical ability. You see Shawn Michaels possesses a very dangerous one hit Knockout type finisher. That is how he has defeated all these guys. Shawn was almost gone in the Iron Man match but he won by hitting the superkick out of nowhere. Same with Angle at Vengeance, by the way. He was down and out but Angle decided to take a risk and Shawn knocked him out with the superkick.

The SCM is not a technical move as you must know. So justifying Cena winning over Michaels as proof that he can outdo technical wrestlers is not correct.

Unforgiven 2007 was Cena vs Orton where Cena was disqualified so perhaps you want to try again? The match was at Survivor Series 2007. Just because he didn't win the match doesn't mean he wasn't successful at utilizing technical wrestling. Technical wrestling is about far more then just the utilization of submission holds, and you seem to be confusing that fact as well. Anyway, none of these matches are submission matches, and if they were, it certainly would be advantage Cena, simply for the fact Cena wouldn't tap out.

Ah, somehow I forget PPV names.

I never said that submission moves are the only thing about technical wrestling. However in that match HBK had to win without hitting his finisher and so he had to use whatever other skills he had at his behest that include technical wrestling. However HBK failed to defeat Orton.

Bret is about 100 times the technical wrestler HBK is. He could reverse holds like no one has ever done before him and get a pinfall or lock in a submission from almost any position. Sorry but Cena defeating HBK is no proof that he could defeat Bret Hart.

Also once again Bret has made Undertaker tap out. He stands more than a chance against Cena in any sort of match up.

No, Im not. Find someone in WWE with superior stamina and conditioning today then John Cena. He's a former college football player, a sport that demands superior conditioning. Again, I point to the No Countouts, No DQ's, Anything Goes 60 minute Ironman match with Orton. I point to his hour long match with HBK in London on Raw in 2007. How exactly am I overestimating his stamina when Im pointing to matches where he went an hour, some in devastating environments? The TLC match with Edge was 45 minutes. Im not saying anything about Cena's "Never Give Up" attitude, Im pointing to his ability to wrestle long matches at the same pace throughout. Id really like to know how Im overestimating his stamina.

The important word here is today. Of course in this day and age you will find no one of Cena's stamina because Cena is the face of the company. Let us go back to 1993 and there is no one on Hart's level of stamina and by that logic let us declare Bret Hart the winner of this contest. Bret was the face of the company at a time. He is better than most of the guys that are wrestling today with his closest rivals being Triple H, Undertaker and Cena.

Also like I mentioned before, Cena got defeated 5 times in the ironman match. Is that a sign of great stamina? He went an hour with HBK but so did Hart. Hart also wrestled for over 47 minutes to win his first KOTR tournament and went over 35 minutes on a regular basis in his matches.

So wrestling at Wrestlemania twice= great stamina? Cena's wrestled at seven Wrestlemania's, so using that logic, his stamina in over 3 times that of Hart's. I know what youre getting at, but youre not getting there effectively. Cena's WON a Royal Rumble, and performed well in several others despite entering early in many, including 2011's. I remember Hart's stamina, and he was an excellent athlete. I wasn't knocking it whatsoever. But to simply put over Hart's stamina without truly examining Cena's for what it is is trying to play on a field that isn't level. Give Cena his due, there's NO doubt that he could easily go 60 minutes+, as he's done it before.

Hart wrestled twice at the same WrestleMania but you know that already. He put on a classic the first time round and won the WWF title the second time round.

I'll take back the Royal Rumble stuff because Cena won at 30 while Hart won at 27.

Cena has great stamina but Hart is very good too. Since we have both made a case for either guy it is best that we let the guys who read these arguements decide whose stamina is greater.

There is strategy that goes into wrestling a street fight match. One would prepare differently to face a Big Show in that environment then they would a Bret Hart, would they not? So having seen and defeated various opponents of various skill sets does play a factor, and it's one that Cena has quite a bit of experience in. Again, not knocking Hart here, he beat Diesel in a No-DQ when Nash was in his prime. But what Cena does best is brawl, and he's done plenty of it.

Hart has already faced someone very similar to Cena in a hardcore environment so he does know what to expect. That is Austin, by the way. Has Cena faced someone with as much technical proficiency as Hart in a streetfight? So if anything the experience factor benefits Hart.

That's one match. For every loss to JBL, I can point to wins over Batista and Umaga, who were in their prime. Umaga was in the middle of a year long undefeated streak, and who stopped him? That would be Cena. Cena also beat the top heel in the company in Randy Orton in an "I Quit" match, as well as an "in his prime" JBL(if he had one). There's no way that a street fight favors Bret Hart, and you're really grasping at straws here. While Bret was by no means a bad brawler/fighter, Cena is an excellent one. This match is easily Advantage: Cena, and I have ten more examples if you really want them.

The mistake you are making is by stating that Bret is "not bad" and that Cena is "excellent". Sure Cena is mainly a brawler and Hart is best known as a very good technical wrestler but Hart has shown that he can brawl with the very best and has a 100% record in hardcore matches. The person who does not have that sort of a record is John Cena. There is no way you can justify that Cena is a better brawler than Hart. If Cena has beaten big men like Umaga and Batista in a streetfight, Hart has beaten Diesel. If Cena has beaten Orton and JBL who are mainly brawlers, Hart has beaten Stone Cold Steve Austin.

Just because Cena mainly brawls is not justification that he will brawl better than Hart.

Bad News Brown and a wrestling territory is the best argument youre going to give me for as to why Bret would beat Cena in a ladder match? Cena handed Edge his only one on one defeat in a TLC match, ever, with Lita running interference for Edge. Ill take a victory over one of, if not the greatest ladder match competitors in Edge over winning a Ladder Match in Calgary or beating Bad News Brown. Brown was average in EVERY way. If this is just a case of you disliking Cena, that's fine, and feel free to say so. You can vote on whatever criteria you like. Im going to try and stick to a more facts based approach myself.

No I was just pointing out the experience factor. Bad News Brown had an average career but he was a pretty tough guy and also a brawler like Cena. So he has defeated a brawler, though an average one, in a ladder match.

As for the greatest ladder match competitor of all time, I seem to remember some guy named Shawn Michaels whom Hart has defeated in a ladder match.

I hope that is what you mean by a fact based approach.

So here's my decision. Cena wins the street fight with an FU to Hart. Hart evens the score in the steel cage when he gets Cena in the sharpshooter and doesnt let go, and Cena can't get out. But here I will use Cena's "Never Give Up" attitude, and it won't be as if Cena makes an incredible comeback here. His legs are weakened, but he can still tip over a ladder. And because of his stamina and incredible leg strength, I see Cena outlasting Hart, slowly climbing the ladder alongside Hart, and sending Hart for a long tumble down after a ferocious FU from the top. Cena wins this.

Total markdom right here.

As shown Cena does not hold any sort of advantage over Hart in a streetfight, if anyone holds the advantage it is Hart, this guy is ready to concede Hart over Cena in a Cage match. It might never come down to a ladder match but even if it does Hart has nothing to worry about.

Vote Hart!!!!

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

Bret Hart is tough, but so is John Cena. I think the intensity and aggression of Cena would give him the edge in the street fight. Hart can certainly dish out the punishment, but I would have to lean slightly towards Cena in fall 1. He takes a 1-0 lead.

In a cage though it is back to 1-1 as Hart is more than capable of handling Cena in this type of match. He may not be as brutal as some wrestlers, in using the cage as a weapon but his technical ability would be able to keep Cena off his feet and a couple of Sharpshooters would prevent Cena from walking properly, let alone climb a cage. Hart gets the win to make it 1-1.

In the final match, where the ladder comes into play I am still torn. I have seen both men in great ladder matches, but as Bret would have already locked the Sharpshooter in numerous times on Cena I really fail to see how he would be able to move quickly enough to climb the ladder before Bret could fight him off. I think a Piledriver from the ladder would give Bret enough time to climb the ladder and win.

A very tough call in this, but I refuse to believe that in his prime Bret Hart could not handle John Cena. Other than his superior strength, nothing about Cena's in-ring talent is better than Bret Hart. Hart goes through 2-1

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I don't see anywhere that you have to climb out of the cage to escape. I assume you can walk through the door as well.


However, I have to respond to this...

As for the greatest ladder match competitor of all time, I seem to remember some guy named Shawn Michaels whom Hart has defeated in a ladder match.

One difference in between what you said and what F.A.T. said. Edge had competed in numerous ladder matches before Cena beat him. Bret beat Michaels in the very first one so I don't think you can use it as a reasoning to why Bret would beat Cena. Besides, you're talking about a HBK who hasn't won a ladder match in sixteen years. Make that fifteen as he did beat Goldust at a house show. Don't make HBK out to be the greatest ladder match competitor. As much I don't like Edge, I believe he's the greatest but Punk is slowly getting up there.

 

[LSN80]

Oh come on now. You know where Riley stands. Just because you main event a TV event does not mean that you become a permanent main eventer. Anyway that point is moot anyway because Bret has defeated Diesel twice in a cage match anyway. So from the data we have at hand Bret has defeated Diesel and Owen Hart in Cage matches while Cena has defeated Edge and Alex Riley in them. It is upto the reader to decide which accomplishment is better.

I do know where Riley stands. But let me get this straight: First Cena was 0-1 in cage matches, until I pointed out otherwise. Then he was 1-1. You want to use freaking Bad News Brown as an example of Bret Hart's prowess within a ladder match, while I can't use Cena defeating Alex Riley with The Miz interfering the whole time as a legitimate win in a Cage Match? Either the match took place, or it didn't. Ive made up my mind about that, and perhaps you should do the same. Ive already conceded the Cage match to Hart, so Im not sure why youre grasping at such straws here over a match I already conceded Hart would win. If you want to keep comin at me over a match we agree on just because of Alex Riley, you're really grasping at straws as to why Cena shouldn't win rather then making a case for Hart.

I remember someone named The Undertaker tapping out to the sharpshooter. I have never seen him tap again. So yes like I told Nate if Bret can make Undertaker tap he can make Cena tap as well.

And Cena and the Undertaker re alike in what way? They're not. Two different styles. Undertaker has lost far more matches then Cena has since Cena became the face of the company, while competing in far less. Cena has been in "I Quit" matches that might as well have been the "Passion of the Christ, Part 2" due to the number of calculated kendo shots he took, and he didn't quit there. Im not dismissing the sharpshooter, but if Cena isn't going to give up after being pounded in that way, he sure as heck isn't going to submit to the sharpshooter. This is the man whose made his name on "Never Give Up", and Cena wouldn't here.

Sure Michaels won but in most cases it was not due to his technical ability. You see Shawn Michaels possesses a very dangerous one hit Knockout type finisher. That is how he has defeated all these guys. Shawn was almost gone in the Iron Man match but he won by hitting the superkick out of nowhere. Same with Angle at Vengeance, by the way. He was down and out but Angle decided to take a risk and Shawn knocked him out with the superkick.

So.....Shawn just used his finisher and that was it? I saw the IronMan match between Hart and HBK, did you? For every hold Hart applied, HBK reversed and applied one of his own. Part of being a good technical wrestler is the ability to escape holds with proficiency and reverse, which Michaels did for 60 minutes in that match. As for the assertion that Michaels was "almost gone", you left out one thing. Both men were thoroughly spent, which is why Hart was so vulnerable to Michaels finisher. 90% of wrestling matches end by pinfall, not submission, so to say that because Michaels used SCM equates to him not being a proficient technical wrestler is absurd. Hart was better, but the gap wasn't as wide as you'ld like to make it. As for the match at Vengeance with Angle, you made my point for me. Angle, a great technical wrestler, couldn't put HBK away in any way using his technical ability, so he was forced to go outside of his comfort zone.

The SCM is not a technical move as you must know. So justifying Cena winning over Michaels as proof that he can outdo technical wrestlers is not correct.

For the umpteenth time, I never made the assertion that SCM is a technical move. I used Michaels as one example, for one, and the fact that he made HBK submit with a technical move. I could also point to the year 2005 when he owned Kurt Angle, and beat him over and over again in virtually every type of match. A submissions match, a match with Angle bringing his own referee, a single's match, a triple threat match, and an Elimination Chamber. That's five matches over the greatest technical wrestler of his time, in one year, no less. Then there's his submission victory over Chris Benoit in 2007 on Raw 3 weeks before Wrestlemania in a Wrestlemania rewind match. Cena's gone toe-to-toe with, and defeated, the best technical wrestlers of his time at their own game during his prime. Im more then comfortable in his ability to go toe to toe with Hart. See above as to why.

I never said that submission moves are the only thing about technical wrestling. However in that match HBK had to win without hitting his finisher and so he had to use whatever other skills he had at his behest that include technical wrestling. However HBK failed to defeat Orton.

And Hart failed to gain a submissions victory, or pinfall of any kind, in the IronMan match against HBK. Does that mean that Hart's technical wrestling wasn't that good, using your logic? I mean, Hart was 100x the technical wrestler that HBK was, so surely he would have gotten a tapout victory at some point, right? It's not as if Michaels didn't tap out in his career, because he did, quite a bit. Yet Hart couldn't make him do so in an hour.

Bret is about 100 times the technical wrestler HBK is. He could reverse holds like no one has ever done before him and get a pinfall or lock in a submission from almost any position. Sorry but Cena defeating HBK is no proof that he could defeat Bret Hart.

I didn't say that he was the technical wrestler Hart is, but 100 times? That's the biggest exaggeration Ive heard in this tournament so far. Again, like I said, watch the IronMan match, with both men in their primes. Both men reversed holds like it was nobodies business. And if Hart was 100 times the technical wrestler HBK was, the automatic conclusion one would come to would be he would have gotten a submission out of it, right? But he didn't, and he didn't get a pinfall either. A man who was 100 times the technical and submissions wrestler then another couldn't score a single victory over the other tells me three things:

1. You exaggerating, quite a bit.
2. HBK was quite a bit better of a technical wrestler then you're giving him credit for.
3. Orton's win over HBK with HBK using technical holds is much more insignificant then you'ld like to think. Just because HBK couldn't win that one match, late in his career, means nothing, unless Hart's failure to get a single fall in the IronMan match means quite a bit.

Also once again Bret has made Undertaker tap out. He stands more than a chance against Cena in any sort of match up.

Except for a couple of things:

1. There isn't a submissions match here in the 3 falls. Its a cage match, which Ive conceded, a street fight, and a ladder match.
2. Cena doesn't tap out, and he's not the Undertaker. You can repeat it over and over, but it means nothing here. Cena hasn't tapped out or given out in his of 7 years now, 7 freaking years! He's not going to be tapping out to Hart here. Even if he were, which match would it do him good in? Not the ladder or cage match, and he's not beating Cena in the street fight.

The important word here is today. Of course in this day and age you will find no one of Cena's stamina because Cena is the face of the company. Let us go back to 1993 and there is no one on Hart's level of stamina and by that logic let us declare Bret Hart the winner of this contest. Bret was the face of the company at a time. He is better than most of the guys that are wrestling today with his closest rivals being Triple H, Undertaker and Cena.

There were guys with Hart's stamina back in 1993, or who would he be having 40 minute matches with? And being the face of the company doesn't automatically mean great stamina. It's simply one of Cena's greatest attributes. I won't even get into the logic of using Undertaker as some measuring stick today because the man wrestles 5-6 times a year, at most. Im also not disputing Hart's stamina, or that he couldn't go with some of the best of today. Hart's style allowed him to wrestle long matches because he wrestled a sow, deliberate style. That's not the style Cena has ever used.

Also like I mentioned before, Cena got defeated 5 times in the ironman match. Is that a sign of great stamina? He went an hour with HBK but so did Hart. Hart also wrestled for over 47 minutes to win his first KOTR tournament and went over 35 minutes on a regular basis in his matches.

Actually, it is, seeing how he won 6 falls, overcame an attack from Orton's goons, and almost got blown up. As I said, there's even more stamina needed in an "anything goes" Ironman match because not only do you have to fight against your opponent, you have to fight the environment and its extraneous variables as well. And Cena did that, and won the match. He got up from taking 5 falls, and won 6. Id say that's darn good stamina and resolve.

Hart wrestled twice at the same WrestleMania but you know that already. He put on a classic the first time round and won the WWF title the second time round.

Yes, I know that. I was hopefully showing you that Im not taking this incredibly serious to the point that I can't have some fun in the process.


Cena has great stamina but Hart is very good too. Since we have both made a case for either guy it is best that we let the guys who read these arguements decide whose stamina is greater.

Hart has already faced someone very similar to Cena in a hardcore environment so he does know what to expect. That is Austin, by the way. Has Cena faced someone with as much technical proficiency as Hart in a streetfight? So if anything the experience factor benefits Hart.

Except that it wasn't a hardcore or streetfight environment that Hart fought Austin is, it was a submissions match. Two totally different animals, my friend. Just because he beat a rising mid-carder in Austin in a submissions match means nothing here. And Cena's fought Kurt Angle in every type of match imaginable, and in his environment as well. That would be a submissions match, which Cena won.

The mistake you are making is by stating that Bret is "not bad" and that Cena is "excellent". Sure Cena is mainly a brawler and Hart is best known as a very good technical wrestler but Hart has shown that he can brawl with the very best and has a 100% record in hardcore matches. The person who does not have that sort of a record is John Cena. There is no way you can justify that Cena is a better brawler than Hart. If Cena has beaten big men like Umaga and Batista in a streetfight, Hart has beaten Diesel. If Cena has beaten Orton and JBL who are mainly brawlers, Hart has beaten Stone Cold Steve Austin.

Except that it wasn't a streetfight between Hart and Austin, it was a submissions match. Theyre not even close to the same type of match. The advantage Cena has is that it's his style of wrestling, primarily, and he's won most of his matches over the past 7 years that way. Im not crapping on Hart as a brawler or his ability, it's just not his forte, and you know it. It is Cena's, and he's only won 9 WWE Championships utilizing that style while remaining in the main event scene for 7 years. Like I said, 2-1 in LMS standing matches, and the "L" only came because he got chokeslammed through a spotlight, and 3-0(JBL, Orton, Batista) in "I Quit" Matches. Cena's not going to lose the street fight to Hart when he's beaten the best brawlers of his day for 7 years, which is the best comparison we have.

No I was just pointing out the experience factor. Bad News Brown had an average career but he was a pretty tough guy and also a brawler like Cena. So he has defeated a brawler, though an average one, in a ladder match.

And again, this is relevant why? I give you Shawn Michaels, Kurt Angle, and Chris Benoit as technical wreslers Cena has beat at their own game, and you give me Bad News Brown? Wow, just wow. I give you Edge Cena has beat in a ladder match, and Bad News Brown is who I get in return? Edge is the greatest ladder match competitor of all-time, as he's the only man to win MITB, a single's ladder match, a single's TLC Match, a tag team ladder, Tag Team TLC, and Fatal Four Way TLC, and who beat him? That would be John Cena, while Edge was in his prime.

As for the greatest ladder match competitor of all time, I seem to remember some guy named Shawn Michaels whom Hart has defeated in a ladder match.

And that would be in the very first ladder match, far before HBK made his name as a great in a ladder match. HBK lost to Razor Ramon and Chris Jericho, one on one, in ladder matches, so he's hardly the measuring stick for ladder match success. I can't even recall the last time HBK has WON a ladder match. Id still take Edge as the greatest ladder match competitor of all time, as HBK may have stolen the show in ladder matches, but he didn't win many. Edge has, and in every type of environment. And who beat him, straight up? That would be Cena.

I hope that is what you mean by a fact based approach.

Yes, that's what I mean by facts.

As shown Cena does not hold any sort of advantage over Hart in a streetfight, if anyone holds the advantage it is Hart, this guy is ready to concede Hart over Cena in a Cage match. It might never come down to a ladder match but even if it does Hart has nothing to worry about.

This guy? I thought we were having a back and forth dude. Im almost hurt!
Cena does have the advantage over Hart in a street fight, as he's the better brawler and has beaten everyone there is to beat in that sort of environment. If that's not proof of it, I don't know what is. Yes, I said that Hart would probably win the Cage match, but I also said how Cena would be able to successfully win the ladder match. There's nothing Hart could do to Cena in that match that Cena hasn't already seen and dealt with before with Edge. Hart isn't near the ladder match competitor that Edge is, yet Cena beat him straight up. Ill take that as why Cena would defeat Hart here, making it 2 falls to 1.

Vote Hart!!!!

Can't do that. The cage match may favor Hart, but I don't see a way in which Hart goes over Cena in either the street fight, or the ladder match, so I don't see a way in which Hart wins 2 falls. Cena wins this.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Has anybody brought up the fact that Three Stages of Hell matches always go to the third match? I mean, somebody must have. I'd truly hate to be the first. Can you name a 3SoH match that hasn't gone to the third round? In some obscure independent company where the booking's dumb as fuck, maybe. It might have just happened in TNA.

So, really, it's a ladder match with endurance taken into account. I choose... Cena. No, Hart. No, Cena! Ohhh, this is hard.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Time isn't everything when it comes to endurance. Tell me, how many of those matches that you named off took place in a structure as brutal as an Elimination Chamber?

A cage is just as brutal an environment as the EC. Hell, with chainlink fencing being the entirety of the structure, it's probably more brutal.

Yeah, just no. Cena has made much stronger and much smarter men tap to the STF. Hart's no better.

Between June of 1991 (when he went into singles action) and November of 1997 (when he left the WWF), do you know how many times Bret gave up? Not once.

JOHN CENA DOESN'T TAP!!!!!! Have you been paying attention at all? Don't pull up some horseshit of Cena tapping when he was a mere mid carder unless you want me to whip out some footage of Hart getting his ass kicked by The Mountie. We're talking Primes here and Cena absolutely does not tap out. The Sharpshooter is as relevant as a fucking hip toss in this match.

If we're going by when both were in their prime, the STF doesn't mean anything either.

And the Austin point is irrelevant as well. He was still a mere mid carder at that point.

He started the match as a mid-carder, and came out a main eventer. Actually, he won the Royal Rumble a few months prior, so he really wasn't a mid-carder either.

Don't start getting all butt hurt now. It's all in fun.

Some people just can't have fun with it

Also (nothing to do with what Nate has said), I keep hearing about how powerful Cena is. How strong he is. How Hart just didn't face anyone that strong. Well, that's bullshit. I pointed out earlier that Hart has beaten (by pinfall, and submission) bigger and stronger men. But, that's already been beaten to death.

However, who is to say Cena has faced anyone like Bret Hart? When has Cena faced a guy who will completely isolate a single body part for 30 minutes? This is what Hart is most famous for, and the reason being--no one since him has really done that. Kurt Angle comes to mind, but he was more of a mat-based, suplex-you-into-submission kind of guy. He wasn't anywhere near as in control of his gameplan as Bret Hart was. Bret came in with a gameplan, and executed that plan. He knew before he stepped into the ring exactly what he was going to do to his opponent. Facing John Cena would be no different.

You factor that into three straight matches with Bret Hart, and I'm guessing Cena is going to have one, possibly two completely worthless limbs in the last match. Bret Hart knew how to take a guy apart, piece by piece, and I don't think Cena has ever gone against someone like that. At least not to that degree.

 

[ThUnDeRpHoEnIx]

^Haha I just imagined Cena with both arms useless.Try winning the match then.

But I went for Bret Hart as well.Street Fight Bret would get some good shots in but Cena would win.In a Steel Cage Bret would win.And by the ladder match the toll taken on Cena would let Bret Win.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I do know where Riley stands.

I am glad that you do.

But let me get this straight: First Cena was 0-1 in cage matches, until I pointed out otherwise. Then he was 1-1.

OK I was wrong with the facts. But from what I have come to know now, Cena is 2-1 in Cage matches with victories over Edge and Alex Riley and a loss to Sheamus via interference and Bret is 3-1 in Cage matches with a win over Owen Hart, Diesel( twice) and a loss to Sid via interference.

Now I don't know about you but I rate Owen better than Riley, Diesel equal to Edge and Sid better than Sheamus.

You want to use freaking Bad News Brown as an example of Bret Hart's prowess within a ladder match, while I can't use Cena defeating Alex Riley with The Miz interfering the whole time as a legitimate win in a Cage Match? Either the match took place, or it didn't. Ive made up my mind about that, and perhaps you should do the same. Ive already conceded the Cage match to Hart, so Im not sure why youre grasping at such straws here over a match I already conceded Hart would win. If you want to keep comin at me over a match we agree on just because of Alex Riley, you're really grasping at straws as to why Cena shouldn't win rather then making a case for Hart.

OK while I admit that Bad News Brown isn't exactly someone very relevaant in the context of wrestling, he is better than Alex Riley in every concievable way. He is an Olympic Bronze medalist in Judo and was a good name outside the WWF. He won the most prestigious title in the Stampede Wrestling Promotion where this said match against Hart took place, not just once but four times. Alex Riley is a nobody, a big talking lackey. Are you comparing Alex Riley to the man who caused Andre the Giant to back off in a fight? Bret Hart defeated a main eventer in the Stampede Promotion in a ladder match. Cena defeated a jobber.

You cannot just use WWF as the sole company for the basis of your judgement here. Brown was one of the best talents in Stampede and Bret defeated him.

And Cena and the Undertaker re alike in what way? They're not. Two different styles.

Different styles yes but they are similar in one aspect that they do not tap out. Cena has tapped out only a handful of times in his career while Undertaker has only tapped out once. And who was that man? Bret Hart.

In fact this is stupid. Who stands a better chance of tapping out? Cena or Undertaker? If you think it is Undertaker then either you are marking out or lying out of your skin.

Undertaker has lost far more matches then Cena has since Cena became the face of the company, while competing in far less.

I do not know the exact number but "far more matches" would be an exaggeration. In fact I would say that both have lost very few matches. But the fact remains that Bret has made a man famous for not quitting ever, quit. How many times has Undertaker been defeated by submission? Just once and that was by Bret Hart.

Cena can tap out to Hart. Bret invoked pain in the legs of an undead zombie who is not supposed to feel pain. Cena is still human. He can tap very well.

You might try not to acknowlegde the fact or try to downplay it but you cannot escape the fact. If Bret can make Undertaker tap, he can make anyone tap.

Cena has been in "I Quit" matches that might as well have been the "Passion of the Christ, Part 2" due to the number of calculated kendo shots he took, and he didn't quit there. Im not dismissing the sharpshooter, but if Cena isn't going to give up after being pounded in that way, he sure as heck isn't going to submit to the sharpshooter. This is the man whose made his name on "Never Give Up", and Cena wouldn't here.

You are dismissing the sharpshooter. I have seen indy nobodies get up from multiple Kendo stick shots and have seen many superstars do the same in WWE. How many guys have withstood Bret Hart's sharpshooter? I can remember Austin and that too he passed out.

Bret's sharpshooter>>>>>Kendo stick shots. Bret can make Cena tap.

So.....Shawn just used his finisher and that was it? I saw the IronMan match between Hart and HBK, did you? For every hold Hart applied, HBK reversed and applied one of his own. Part of being a good technical wrestler is the ability to escape holds with proficiency and reverse, which Michaels did for 60 minutes in that match. As for the assertion that Michaels was "almost gone", you left out one thing. Both men were thoroughly spent, which is why Hart was so vulnerable to Michaels finisher. 90% of wrestling matches end by pinfall, not submission, so to say that because Michaels used SCM equates to him not being a proficient technical wrestler is absurd. Hart was better, but the gap wasn't as wide as you'ld like to make it. As for the match at Vengeance with Angle, you made my point for me. Angle, a great technical wrestler, couldn't put HBK away in any way using his technical ability, so he was forced to go outside of his comfort zone.

Actually it is not ony the fact that Hart was spent. Hart was pissed that though he had to retained the title fair and square he would have to wrestle again. His anger played a huge part here. You can see the disdain for Michaels on his face when he came back to the ring. He was trying to finish off Michaels quickly and that is where he made a mistake.

Also the fact that he won against technically proficient wrestlers is a tribute to his stamina rather than his technical skill. Very often he did not even reverse holds. He sometimes just made it to the bottom rope by sheer will power. In Hart's case he could not even reach the bottom rope. He just stayed in the sharpshooter till the time expired. He withstood a lot of pain but he could not reverse the hold.

For the umpteenth time, I never made the assertion that SCM is a technical move. I used Michaels as one example, for one, and the fact that he made HBK submit with a technical move. I could also point to the year 2005 when he owned Kurt Angle, and beat him over and over again in virtually every type of match. A submissions match, a match with Angle bringing his own referee, a single's match, a triple threat match, and an Elimination Chamber. That's five matches over the greatest technical wrestler of his time, in one year, no less. Then there's his submission victory over Chris Benoit in 2007 on Raw 3 weeks before Wrestlemania in a Wrestlemania rewind match. Cena's gone toe-to-toe with, and defeated, the best technical wrestlers of his time at their own game during his prime. Im more then comfortable in his ability to go toe to toe with Hart. See above as to why.

First off Angle is not better than Hart kayfabe wise. Bret Hart was the face of the company and no one broke free of the sharpshooter until Austin did so at WrestleMania. The ankle lock and crossface have been countered many times. Cena can hold his own against technical wrestler but Hart is not just any technical wrestler, he is THE technical wrestler here.

Have Angle and Benoit ever been the face of the company? Well Hart has. By 2007 Benoit was a midcarder while Hart never slipped down to the midcard in the WWF. Nope defeating Hart is a whole different ball game than defeating Angle or Benoit.

And Hart failed to gain a submissions victory, or pinfall of any kind, in the IronMan match against HBK. Does that mean that Hart's technical wrestling wasn't that good, using your logic? I mean, Hart was 100x the technical wrestler that HBK was, so surely he would have gotten a tapout victory at some point, right? It's not as if Michaels didn't tap out in his career, because he did, quite a bit. Yet Hart couldn't make him do so in an hour.

Well you know how resilient HBK is and that was HBK's prime. Also there is the case that Hart released the sharpshooter as soon as the time limit expired. Maybe if he had it applied for a few more seconds HBK would have tapped out as HBK was showing no signs of being able to counter the move. That plus the sharpshooter had never been countered before.

I didn't say that he was the technical wrestler Hart is, but 100 times? That's the biggest exaggeration Ive heard in this tournament so far.

No, The biggest exaggeration is Cena somehow has a lesser chance of tapping out than The Undertaker.

Again, like I said, watch the IronMan match, with both men in their primes. Both men reversed holds like it was nobodies business. And if Hart was 100 times the technical wrestler HBK was, the automatic conclusion one would come to would be he would have gotten a submission out of it, right? But he didn't, and he didn't get a pinfall either. A man who was 100 times the technical and submissions wrestler then another couldn't score a single victory over the other tells me three things:

Read the above post. A combination of HBK's prime and the fact tht Hart let the Sharpshooter go. And as you said technical wrestling is not all about submission wrestling. Also if HBK is such a good technical wrestler then why wasn't HE able to put Hart away either/

1. You exaggerating, quite a bit.

Not as much as the Cena/ Undertaker thing you did.

2. HBK was quite a bit better of a technical wrestler then you're giving him credit for.

He is nowhere on Hart's level. That is all I am saying. In fact very few people are.

For a technical wrestler to be as good as Hart you would need him to be the face of the company for 2 to 3 years, his submission move should have been unbreakable for about 6-7 years and he should have the same variety of opponents that Hart beat.

3. Orton's win over HBK with HBK using technical holds is much more insignificant then you'ld like to think. Just because HBK couldn't win that one match, late in his career, means nothing, unless Hart's failure to get a single fall in the IronMan match means quite a bit.

Funny that even late in his career HBK did not lose a lot. Yes it is not comparable to his prime but it is not totally insignificant. Remember that he beat your precious Cena just a few months earlier. He cannot have totally lost it.

1. There isn't a submissions match here in the 3 falls. Its a cage match, which Ive conceded, a street fight, and a ladder match.

I just said that he stands a chance to make Cena submit in any type of match.

2. Cena doesn't tap out, and he's not the Undertaker. You can repeat it over and over, but it means nothing here. Cena hasn't tapped out or given out in his of 7 years now, 7 freaking years! He's not going to be tapping out to Hart here. Even if he were, which match would it do him good in? Not the ladder or cage match, and he's not beating Cena in the street fight.

Again this is silly. Cena hasn't tapped for 7 years, you say? Undertaker has tapped ONCE in 21 years and it has been 17 years since anyone has made him tap. And like I said you know who made Undertaker tap, don't you.

And yes, 21 freaking years! > 7 freaking years!

There were guys with Hart's stamina back in 1993, or who would he be having 40 minute matches with? And being the face of the company doesn't automatically mean great stamina. It's simply one of Cena's greatest attributes. I won't even get into the logic of using Undertaker as some measuring stick today because the man wrestles 5-6 times a year, at most. Im also not disputing Hart's stamina, or that he couldn't go with some of the best of today

Yes there were guys who had stamina close to that of Hart but Hart generally won because he was the better athlete: ie he was more skilled and could outlast them. By that logic then we should throw Cena's stamina out of the window as well because by that logic guys like Edge and Orton have stamina equal to that of Cena.

Hart's style allowed him to wrestle long matches because he wrestled a sow, deliberate style. That's not the style Cena has ever used.

Why thank you for agreeing on the point I have been trying to make. Hart has a better chance of conserving energy than Cena because of his style!

Actually, it is, seeing how he won 6 falls, overcame an attack from Orton's goons, and almost got blown up. As I said, there's even more stamina needed in an "anything goes" Ironman match because not only do you have to fight against your opponent, you have to fight the environment and its extraneous variables as well. And Cena did that, and won the match. He got up from taking 5 falls, and won 6. Id say that's darn good stamina and resolve.

Him defeating Orton 6 times makes me question Orton's stamina actually. And the match was "anything goes" for both men actually. Because Cena had to face the environment but he could use the environment to his advantage as well. So it works both ways. It is not that you require more stamina to win an "anything goes" match than a normal match.

Yes, I know that. I was hopefully showing you that Im not taking this incredibly serious to the point that I can't have some fun in the process.

It's actually good that way because in that case defeat won't hurt much.

Except that it wasn't a hardcore or streetfight environment that Hart fought Austin is, it was a submissions match. Two totally different animals, my friend. Just because he beat a rising mid-carder in Austin in a submissions match means nothing here. And Cena's fought Kurt Angle in every type of match imaginable, and in his environment as well. That would be a submissions match, which Cena won.

Um No it was an "I Quit" match. Which means that you could win by submission, or by beating the hell out of your opponent as the announcers kept on repeating in Austin's case.

And Austin may have been a rising midcarder but he was built up as Hart's equal in this match. We were led to believe that Austin had a great chance of winning this match.

And Kurt has tapped out quite a lot before Cena made him tap. Bret Hart has never tapped.

Except that it wasn't a streetfight between Hart and Austin, it was a submissions match. Theyre not even close to the same type of match. The advantage Cena has is that it's his style of wrestling, primarily, and he's won most of his matches over the past 7 years that way.

Again it was an "I Quit" match. The victory could be gotten by submission but not only by submission. If anything it is even more demanding than a streetfight.

And if you want to get technical Bret won against Diesel too in a "No Holds Barred" match which is a streetfight.

Also when has Cena faced someone like Bret " a technical wrestler par excellence" in a streetfight?

Im not crapping on Hart as a brawler or his ability, it's just not his forte, and you know it.

There is no earthly proof for that. What are you making this assumption on? The fact that he fought in less number of streetfights? What is to say that if there were more streetfights in that era he would have won them?

It is Cena's, and he's only won 9 WWE Championships utilizing that style while remaining in the main event scene for 7 years. Like I said, 2-1 in LMS standing matches, and the "L" only came because he got chokeslammed through a spotlight, and 3-0(JBL, Orton, Batista) in "I Quit" Matches. Cena's not going to lose the street fight to Hart when he's beaten the best brawlers of his day for 7 years, which is the best comparison we have.

1. Cena lost an "I Quit" match to JBL.

2. Bret Hart is not just a brawler. He is also a very good technical wrestler and has shown in the past that a technical wrestler can win a hardcore match with ease. He has defeated some of the best brawlers of his day and age in a streetfight/ no holds barred type of matchup. So why should he fall short against Cena?

And again, this is relevant why? I give you Shawn Michaels, Kurt Angle, and Chris Benoit as technical wreslers Cena has beat at their own game, and you give me Bad News Brown? Wow, just wow. I give you Edge Cena has beat in a ladder match, and Bad News Brown is who I get in return? Edge is the greatest ladder match competitor of all-time, as he's the only man to win MITB, a single's ladder match, a single's TLC Match, a tag team ladder, Tag Team TLC, and Fatal Four Way TLC, and who beat him? That would be John Cena, while Edge was in his prime.

I gave the example of Bad News Brown because Bret had defeated him in a ladder match. And, as I have pointed out earlier Brown was a pretty big deal at Calgary where the match took place.

And if you want the example of Bret defeating brawlers you can always refer to guys like Diesel, Austin, Ramon and Undertaker. He beat Diesel and Austin in a hardcore environment.

And finally I cannot help it if Hart has not participated in talent that in your opinion cannot rival Edge.

Bad News Brown was a brawler, very much like Cena and also a big deal in Calgary. HBK is generally regarded as one of the greatest ladder match performers of all time. There is also the fact that Hart can weaken Cena's legs and leave him unable to climb the ladder.

What is your arguement for Cena? That he has defeated Edge who wrestles nothing like Hart does.

And that would be in the very first ladder match, far before HBK made his name as a great in a ladder match. HBK lost to Razor Ramon and Chris Jericho, one on one, in ladder matches, so he's hardly the measuring stick for ladder match success. I can't even recall the last time HBK has WON a ladder match. Id still take Edge as the greatest ladder match competitor of all time, as HBK may have stolen the show in ladder matches, but he didn't win many. Edge has, and in every type of environment. And who beat him, straight up? That would be Cena.

OK let me tell you whom Edge defeated in singles ladder matches prior to Cena's victory. Midcarders like Christian and Matt Hardy and an old washed up Ric Flair. By that logic even he was no great shakes at ladder matches either at that point.

And yes HBK too has participated in very few ladder matches. He has participated in one since he came back and that was against Jericho which he lost by interference. I take quality over quantity every day. Michaels is certainly the greatest ladder match performer judging by the quality of his matches.

This guy? I thought we were having a back and forth dude. Im almost hurt!
Cena does have the advantage over Hart in a street fight, as he's the better brawler and has beaten everyone there is to beat in that sort of environment. If that's not proof of it, I don't know what is. Yes, I said that Hart would probably win the Cage match, but I also said how Cena would be able to successfully win the ladder match. There's nothing Hart could do to Cena in that match that Cena hasn't already seen and dealt with before with Edge. Hart isn't near the ladder match competitor that Edge is, yet Cena beat him straight up. Ill take that as why Cena would defeat Hart here, making it 2 falls to 1.

Cena has no sort of advantage over Hart in a streetfight. Just because Hart has fewer matches does not mean he would perform badly against Cena. He has defeated very good brawlers possibly better than a lot of opponents that Cena has faced in this sort of an environment.

Hart can win the ladder match. He can weaken Cena's legs and leave him in a mess. Hart has performed well in ladder matches irrespective of what LSN has to say. Also it might not even come down to a ladder match.

Can't do that. The cage match may favor Hart, but I don't see a way in which Hart goes over Cena in either the street fight, or the ladder match, so I don't see a way in which Hart wins 2 falls. Cena wins this.

Just because you cannot see it does not mean it cannot happen. I knew that your Cena markdom would come in way eventually that will blind you from seeing the truth.

Vote Hart!!!

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

1. Cena lost an "I Quit" match to JBL.

2. Bret Hart is not just a brawler. He is also a very good technical wrestler and has shown in the past that a technical wrestler can win a hardcore match with ease. He has defeated some of the best brawlers of his day and age in a streetfight/ no holds barred type of matchup. So why should he fall short against Cena?

I'm a sucker for bullet pints/numbered posts so I read this ahead of the rest of your post and I have to adress them:

1: No he didn't. JBL lost at Judgment Day 2005 to John Cena in an I-Quit match.

2: How could Bret win a Hardcore match with ease. I don't recall Bret ever winning a hardcore match with ease, not in this tournament and not in real life. He may have a good record, but he never won them with ease.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I'm a sucker for bullet pints/numbered posts so I read this ahead of the rest of your post and I have to adress them:

1: No he didn't. JBL lost at Judgment Day 2005 to John Cena in an I-Quit match.

2: How could Bret win a Hardcore match with ease. I don't recall Bret ever winning a hardcore match with ease, not in this tournament and not in real life. He may have a good record, but he never won them with ease.

1. OK he did lose an "I-Quit" match to Cena but he also won a parking lot brawl against Cena in 2008. That too cleanly if I may add.

2. No one wins hardcore matches with ease. Maybe I should not have typed that word but please do not tell me that you intend to use that as an arguement as to why Cena should win over Hart.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

1. OK he did lose an "I-Quit" match to Cena but he also won a parking lot brawl against Cena in 2008. That too cleanly if I may add.

2. No one wins hardcore matches with ease. Maybe I should not have typed that word but please do not tell me that you intend to use that as an arguement as to why Cena should win over Hart.

So both of your points were wrong. Good we got that out of the way. I voted for Cena for the reasons I stated earlier. Cena’s power would win this for me. He'd be able to use his strength to his advantage in all the falls and is very capable of winning any of them. I think it goes to three but I see Cena winning by the slightest of margins.

 

[LSN80]

OK I was wrong with the facts. But from what I have come to know now, Cena is 2-1 in Cage matches with victories over Edge and Alex Riley and a loss to Sheamus via interference and Bret is 3-1 in Cage matches with a win over Owen Hart, Diesel( twice) and a loss to Sid via interference.

Im not sure which facts to debate with you and which to not, because you can't keep them straight. It' worth mentioning that Cena WON the cage match against Edge, even with interference. Heck, he had Edge freaking unconscious before Cade and Mudoch were interfering. Edge and Cena feuded for the entire YEAR and Cena beat the piss out of him so badly he was unconscious in the Cage match.Yet Iv conceded that Cena would likely lose the cage match, and you continue to go on about it, changing your facts every time. Come back when you get your story straight, ok?

Now I don't know about you but I rate Owen better than Riley, Diesel equal to Edge and Sid better than Sheamus.

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

OK while I admit that Bad News Brown isn't exactly someone very relevaant in the context of wrestling, he is better than Alex Riley in every concievable way.

Im not that worried about Alex Riley. Now youre comparing someone who was mostly irrelevant that Hart beat in a ladder match to someone Cena beat in a cage match. How is this relevant, exactly?

He is an Olympic Bronze medalist in Judo and was a good name outside the WWF. He won the most prestigious title in the Stampede Wrestling Promotion where this said match against Hart took place, not just once but four times. Alex Riley is a nobody, a big talking lackey. Are you comparing Alex Riley to the man who caused Andre the Giant to back off in a fight? Bret Hart defeated a main eventer in the Stampede Promotion in a ladder match. Cena defeated a jobber.

Again, relevance please? I don't care about the cage match, and the last time I checked, Hart defeated Brown in a ladder match. Good for him. As Ive stated repeatedly, Cena defeated Edge, the greatest ladder match competitor of all time, in his hometown, in a TLC match. Id say advantage Cena.

You cannot just use WWF as the sole company for the basis of your judgement here. Brown was one of the best talents in Stampede and Bret defeated him.

How was Brown in ladder matches? Exactly. How was Edge in ladder matches? We all know the answer to that one. He came into the WWF(E) and immediately began cutting his teeth in ladder matches in 1999. And Cena beat him 7 years later, when both were main eventers in the biggest company in the world. WWE(F) would pluc talent back in the day from Stampede, not the other way around. WWE= bigger company, Edge = better ladder match competitor in his sleep then BNB. Cena beat him,despite interference. Im sure he could handle Hart, especially since it's not by submission or pinfall.

Different styles yes but they are similar in one aspect that they do not tap out. Cena has tapped out only a handful of times in his career while Undertaker has only tapped out once. And who was that man? Bret Hart.

Cena tapped out only when he was in the mid-card, you're using a rediculous argument. Using that logic, I could say that the Hart of today would lose to Cena in 3 minutes in the first two matches. Since Cena has been in the prime of is career, he's yet to tap out.

In fact this is stupid. Who stands a better chance of tapping out? Cena or Undertaker? If you think it is Undertaker then either you are marking out or lying out of your skin.

Id say not Cena since he's been the face of the company and main evented every PPV and Raw since he's been healthy and hasn't tapped out since. John Cena in his prime doesn't tap out, period! Your Undertaker argument is irrelevant, once again, they're different competitors. Since Cena became the face of the company, he's yet to tap out. Period, end of story, no irrelevant, misconstrued, or just plain wrong fact you TRY to put out there says any different.

I do not know the exact number but "far more matches" would be an exaggeration. In fact I would say that both have lost very few matches. But the fact remains that Bret has made a man famous for not quitting ever, quit. How many times has Undertaker been defeated by submission? Just once and that was by Bret Hart.Cena can tap out to Hart. Bret invoked pain in the legs of an undead zombie who is not supposed to feel pain. Cena is still human. He can tap very well.

You might try not to acknowlegde the fact or try to downplay it but you cannot escape the fact. If Bret can make Undertaker tap, he can make anyone tap.

And since Cena won his first WWE title, how many times has he tapped out? Zero. Again, if you want to bring up his time in the mid-card, let's just make this the Cena of today vs the Hart of today. Am I being rediculous? Yes. But so are you insisting Cena would tap out.

The simple fact of the matter remains, Cena has yet to tap out in his prime and adopted the Never Give Up gimmick. He's not going to submit. Period.

You are dismissing the sharpshooter. I have seen indy nobodies get up from multiple Kendo stick shots and have seen many superstars do the same in WWE. How many guys have withstood Bret Hart's sharpshooter? I can remember Austin and that too he passed out.

No, Im not. The sharpshooter is one of the greatest submission moves in wrestling history. You know whats a more difficult hold to escape then the Sharpshooter? Handcuffs. Yet Cena was handcuffed to the ringpost taking kedo shot after kendo shot. This wasn't some indy sideshow with the Sandman and Justin Credible. He was handcuffed to the ring and didn't quit, and handcuffs are harder to escape then any hold a human being can put one in. Again, facts you just simple leave out.

Bret's sharpshooter>>>>>Kendo stick shots. Bret can make Cena tap.

Handcuffs>>>>>> Sharpshooter. This isn't about proving you're a big man here or anything, you've tried to make your point here over and again, and you've failed with posts littered with innacuracies and false claims. Cena wouldn't tap.

Did we even mention that only one of these matches could even end in submission? Hart could have Cena in the sharpshooter for 10 minutes bu if he's not escaping the cage or climbing a ladder, what good would it do? That would be NONE.

Actually it is not ony the fact that Hart was spent. Hart was pissed that though he had to retained the title fair and square he would have to wrestle again. His anger played a huge part here. You can see the disdain for Michaels on his face when he came back to the ring. He was trying to finish off Michaels quickly and that is where he made a mistake.

I don't care how Hart lost the match, as much as i care how he didnt win. And that was, in supposedly being the greatest technical wrestler ever against a man he's 1,000 the technical wrestler then, he couldn't gain a single pinfall or submission against him in an hour says alot.

Also the fact that he won against technically proficient wrestlers is a tribute to his stamina rather than his technical skill. Very often he did not even reverse holds. He sometimes just made it to the bottom rope by sheer will power. In Hart's case he could not even reach the bottom rope. He just stayed in the sharpshooter till the time expired. He withstood a lot of pain but he could not reverse the hold.

So did HBK tap out, or did he win the match? You tell me. After an hour, plus, which happened? We both know what happened. The great technical wrestler Bret Hart couldn't gain a single fall. And if you're talking about Cena and his wins against technical wrestlers, he reversed them all. The anklelock, the crossface, the Edge-E-Cution(a variaton of the sharpshooter), and the Walls, Cena' reversed them all, often into a submission of his own.

First off Angle is not better than Hart kayfabe wise. Bret Hart was the face of the company and no one broke free of the sharpshooter until Austin did so at WrestleMania. The ankle lock and crossface have been countered many times. Cena can hold his own against technical wrestler but Hart is not just any technical wrestler, he is THE technical wrestler here.

I never said that Angle was better then Hart was "kayfabe wise." If you want to twist my words for the 151029th time, go right ahead. I said "he's the bt comparison we have" and Angle couldn't make Cena submit from 2005-on, the only period that matters here. If Austin broke the sharpshooter, so could Cena. Austin was also a brawler but Cena is at least equally as strong as Austin.

Have Angle and Benoit ever been the face of the company? Well Hart has. By 2007 Benoit was a midcarder while Hart never slipped down to the midcard in the WWF. Nope defeating Hart is a whole different ball game than defeating Angle or Benoit.

Again, relevance? Angle has been in the main event picture of any company he's ever been in for his entire prime. Id say that's sufficient enough, and the fact that he won the World Title in WWE after chasing Cena for a year is testament to that. Benoit was a former World Champion and a submission specialist who also used the sharpshooter, and Cena defeated him, by submission.

Well you know how resilient HBK is and that was HBK's prime. Also there is the case that Hart released the sharpshooter as soon as the time limit expired. Maybe if he had it applied for a few more seconds HBK would have tapped out as HBK was showing no signs of being able to counter the move. That plus the sharpshooter had never been countered before.

Maybe, but, well, just,... I love those words. You know why? Because they're irrelevant. You can write your own story of what might have happened and it's just a sad attempt to prove your point. Plenty of men got to the ropes on Hart in the sharophooter, and beat him afterwards. Getting to the ropes is a counter, believe it or not. The same could be said for Cena's STFU, as noones gotten out of it either without getting to the ropes. It's been the only counter, a legitimate one at that, that's been used on the STFU in 7 years since Cena broke it out. Hart's only prayer would be to outmuscle the stronger Cena to the ropes, which he wouldn't. He'ld tap.

No, The biggest exaggeration is Cena somehow has a lesser chance of tapping out than The Undertaker

.

Cena hasn't tapped out in his prime. According to you, Undertaker has. That's all the proof I need.

Read the above post. A combination of HBK's prime and the fact tht Hart let the Sharpshooter go. And as you said technical wrestling is not all about submission wrestling. Also if HBK is such a good technical wrestler then why wasn't HE able to put Hart away either.

That's the thing. I never said HBK was Hart' equal as a technical wrestler, did I? Yet Hart never made him submit, not for an hour. Seeing how two of the three matches here couldnt end in submission anyway, thats a large weapon you can take out of Hart's arsenal. In the end, who won the hour long match between Bret and Shawn? That's what I thought.

Not as much as the Cena/ Undertaker thing you did.

Dude, you don't have to say the same thing over and over. I get your (incredibly false) point. This isn't a game of "I know you are, but what am I?" Its a debate. Be an adult about it kid.

One last time. If Taker tapped out in his prime, and Cena hasn't, there's your answer.

For a technical wrestler to be as good as Hart you would need him to be the face of the company for 2 to 3 years, his submission move should have been unbreakable for about 6-7 years and he should have the same variety of opponents that Hart beat.

Glad to see that you set the standard for what the face of the company should be. Let's see, face of the company for 7 years? An unbreakable submission hold in the STFU(other then the ropes) for 7 years? Why, that sounds like John Cena! And he's not even in the discussion of great tecnical wrestlers. Beat everyone there is to beat? Yeah, that would be Cena. Name someone he HASN'T beaten. Name someone he HASN'T made tap out, at that. You can't.

Funny that even late in his career HBK did not lose a lot. Yes it is not comparable to his prime but it is not totally insignificant. Remember that he
beat your precious Cena just a few months earlier. He cannot have totally
lost it.

You're right, it's not insignificant. You know what is significant? The man Bret Hart couldn't make tap out, tapped out to John Cena in the main event of Wrestlemania 23. Why? Because the STFU has been an unbreakable hold. So the man who beat Bret Hart and didn't tap out in over an hour to Hart tapped to Cena in 30 minutes. Again, advantage Cena.

I just said that he stands a chance to make Cena submit in any type of match.

He can make Cena submit in a ladder match where there are no submissions? In a cage match where it's escape only? How? That's two of three matches in which the sharpshooter loses a great deal of effectiveness, because there would be no submission.

Yes there were guys who had stamina close to that of Hart but Hart generally won because he was the better athlete: ie he was more skilled and could outlast them. By that logic then we should throw Cena's stamina out of the window as well because by that logic guys like Edge and Orton have stamina equal to that of Cena.

Noone has outlasted Cena in that type of environment and you know it. The proof is in Cena's records in said matches. 1-0 in Ironman matches compared to Hart's 0-1. 3-0 in I Quit matches. 1-0 in Ladder matches. 3-1 in EC matches. And again, 2-1 in LMS matches, where he only lost by being chokeslammed through a spotlight. Ive asked the question before, and Ill ask it again, since you choose to ignore it. What would happen to Hart if he went through a spotlight?

Cena's track record in those matches speak for itself.

Why thank you for agreeing on the point I have been trying to make. Hart has a better chance of conserving energy than Cena because of his style!

It's not going to matter after Cena has beaten the piss out of him in the street fight. Do you really see Cena as the backing off type? That would let Hart rest or conserve energy? Because after he pinned him in the street fight, he'ld be right back on him in the cage match.

Him defeating Orton 6 times makes me question Orton's stamina actually. And the match was "anything goes" for both men actually. Because Cena had to face the environment but he could use the environment to his advantage as well. So it works both ways. It is not that you require more stamina to win an "anything goes" match than a normal match.

Gee really, does it? I didnt know that! It was only held in my hometown and I was there, bud. Like I said, youre fighting your opponent and the elements. Being thrown off a stage and put through a table and getting back up requires a heck of alot more stamina then a normal wrestling match. And the coup de grace(finishing touch)? Cena won the match by submission, in regulation. Orton couldn't hold on with Cena's submission move when HBK could to Hart's. Now you tell me whose is more unbreakable....

And Austin may have been a rising midcarder but he was built up as Hart's equal in this match. We were led to believe that Austin had a great chance of winning this match.

Yes, in a submissions match. It wasn't a street fight with Austin, it was a submissions match. Austin was a rising mid-carder, but he was still a mid-carder. He wasn't the "Stone Cold" Stve Austin of his prime. His prime began a year later.

Again it was an "I Quit" match. The victory could be gotten by submission but not only by submission. If anything it is even more demanding than a streetfight.

Im well aware of what an "I Quit" match is. Cena is 3-0 in them.

1. Judgement 2005 against JBL.
2. Breaking Point 2009 against Randy Orton.
3. Over the Limit 2010 against Batista.

All main eventers when Cena defeated them.

Also when has Cena faced someone like Bret " a technical wrestler par excellence" in a streetfight?

That would be Kurt Angle. I assume a "No DQ" match works for you, right?

1. Cena lost an "I Quit" match to JBL.

Wrong. No he didn't. But again, don't let the facts get in the way of you argument. Cena WON that match. How many mistakes do you need to make in facts before I just stop taking you seriously altogether? Just wath the end and we'll see.

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2. Bret Hart is not just a brawler. He is also a very good technical wrestler and has shown in the past that a technical wrestler can win a hardcore match with ease. He has defeated some of the best brawlers of his day and age in a streetfight/ no holds barred type of matchup. So why should he fall short against Cena?

Noone wins a street fight with ease. Bret Hart never did. Seriously, what street fight match did Hart win with ease? None. All street fights are hard fought battles, by nature. Look at Cena vs JBL, above, as an example. Cena would win because he was more powerful then Hart, and would be able to use that power against Hart. Because in the end, we've never seen ANYONE overpower Cena. Can't say the same for Hart. Cena's strength, power, and aggression would be too much in the street fight. Youre wrong on both counts, again.

I gave the example of Bad News Brown because Bret had defeated him in a ladder match. And, as I have pointed out earlier Brown was a pretty big deal at Calgary where the match took place.

Cena defeated Edge in a TLC match in Edge's hometown. When you look at things in light of that, his wn over Bad News Brown just doesn't mean much in comparison, does it? No.

And finally I cannot help it if Hart has not participated in talent that in your opinion cannot rival Edge.

You're correct. Hart DIDN'T participate AGAINST talent the likes of Edge in a ladder match. And because of that, Hart would be at a disadvantage. Cena won one, for the title, with his career in essence on the line. It doesn't get more impressive then that, and Cena would be able to take out the man who beat Bad News Brown.

Bad News Brown was a brawler, very much like Cena and also a big deal in Calgary. HBK is generally regarded as one of the greatest ladder match performers of all time. There is also the fact that Hart can weaken Cena's legs and leave him unable to climb the ladder.

And Cena could do the same to Hart with the STFU. Hart wouldn't be able to keep the Sharpshooter on Cena long enough to weaken him. Who have you ever seen apply a submission to Cena that he couldn't power out of? Even Batista, who was far stronger then Hart, couldnt keep Cena down with the Rings of Saturn. Cena would power out of the Sharpshooter like he has every other move. And again, I have to repeat myself. That was HBK's first ladder match, against Hart, before his prime. Bad News Brown is nothing compared to an in-his-prime Edge in his own hometown. If Cena beat Edge despite interference, Im sure he could defeat Hart. Im sure.

What is your arguement for Cena? That he has defeated Edge who wrestles nothing like Hart does.

That he beat the greatest ladder match competitor of all time in a ladder match in his own hometown with his job on the line for the title. The highest stakes against the greatest ladder match competitor of all time, despite interference, and Cena won. Edge is a good technical wrestler but technical wrestling means jack in a ladder match. That's more then any argument you could make for Hart.

OK let me tell you whom Edge defeated in singles ladder matches prior to Cena's victory. Midcarders like Christian and Matt Hardy and an old washed up Ric Flair. By that logic even he was no great shakes at ladder matches either at that point.

Edge was a mid-carder when he defeated many of those men. He also beat the Undertaker, who you casually left off your list. He beat Kane and Rey Mysterio and Del Rio in one match. When did Hart win a four way, or three way ladder match? How about a tag team ladder match? He didn't, because he never competed in them. Again, youre out of your element here when you try to argue facts with me.

And yes HBK too has participated in very few ladder matches. He has participated in one since he came back and that was against Jericho which he lost by interference. I take quality over quantity every day. Michaels is certainly the greatest ladder match performer judging by the quality of his matches.

That's personal opinion, and nothing more. Find me an Edge ladder match that lacked quality. He even carried a "washed up" Ric Flair to a great TLC match. There's a heckuva alot of quality in there. And again, for the final time, HBK lost to Hart in his first ladder match, while Cena beat the WWE Champion in his prime. But continue to ignore the facts.

Cena has no sort of advantage over Hart in a streetfight. Just because Hart has fewer matches does not mean he would perform badly against Cena. He has defeated very good brawlers possibly better than a lot of opponents that Cena has faced in this sort of an environment.

Just power, strength, and experience, that's all. I didn't say he would perform badly, I in fact said that no street fight is every easy. No cage match is ever easy, and no ladder match is ever easy. This is a very close matchup, and Ive made that clear over and again. Cena is primarily a brawler, and one of the all-time greats at that. His strength and power along with his experience factor and the fact that the man takes a beating like no other and just doesnt stay down certainly weigh in his favor.

Hart can win the ladder match. He can weaken Cena's legs and leave him in a mess. Hart has performed well in ladder matches irrespective of what LSN has to say. Also it might not even come down to a ladder match.

LSN has never said Hart hasn't performed well in ladder matches. LSN has never said that thi wouldn't be close. You're the one making outrageous statements like it wouldn't come down to a ladder match, like you just did. LSN has given Hart far more credit then you've given Cena. But overall Cena's power, strength, and experience in said matches with regards to his opponents compared to Hart's would give him the slight edge, in my mind.

Just because you cannot see it does not mean it cannot happen. I knew that your Cena markdom would come in way eventually that will blind you from seeing the truth.

Vote Hart!!!

People are voting Hart,and some are voting Cena. Im not here trying to convince anyone of anything, Im simply debating you. There's no "markdom" here, otherwise Id be misconstruing facts and burying Hart. I didn't do that. I said in my opinion this would be a very close matchup, but in the end, Cena would win, and I justified it. I voted for Cena as a result of that logic. Close matchup, but Cena wins it. Again, I said it wasn't a vote against Hart as much as a vote for Cena. Hart is one of the all-time greats, but I think these matches with their stipulations favor Cena 2-1. Im out.

 

[Tastycles]

I think the most important thing to note going into this is that you literally could not pick a better opponent for Cena than a submission wrestler. He is the embodiment of a wrestler who doesn't give up, and I don't see that Hart will make him do so. The nature of wrestling is that each of them would win one of the first two falls, and I don't see either stipulation helping either man too much, so it comes down to the ladder match.

Hart is certainly capable of incapacitating John Cena, but I don't think he even can be kept down long enough for a ladder climb. To be honest, I think this will end with Hart crotching himself on the top rope, like he did in other ladder matches and Cena, undefeated in ladder matches, would take the contract for the quarter final or whatever it is.

 

[Lion's Sacrifice]

Lot of good arguments for both guys here. Looking at this match though and what it calls for, I can't go against Cena. Hart as great as he is in over his head in this setting.

The first fall Cena wins, he can take the punishment, and is in my eyes more ready for this type of match then Hart is. Yes, Hart made SCSA pass out. However, Cena isn't Austin. As so many on this forum like to point out he has the "superman" quality. He's not going to lose in a sharpshooter, and the guy gets back up from everything.

Second is Bret's to lose. To me this match sets up better for Bret then the street fight. Bret can easily escape the cage. He has speed on Cena and can get in and out and cut Cena down. I'm just wondering how much he's going to have in the tank after the street fight.

Third match is Cena's in my opinion. I do not see Hart being able to keep up with Cena after what will be a brutal first two matches. Both are going to take a lot out of the guys. Yes, both have had Iron man matches. However, I don't think Hart can take the amount of punishment that Cena will dish out over a 30 to 40 minute period. Cena is a freak in longer matches. Just look back at his Iron man match, his I quit matches, his last man standing matches, as well as the elimination chamber matches he's been in. Now, not all of these he's won. However, he's taken serious punishment and is always in there in the end. He's got the stamina and sheer brutality to end Hart in the first match.
I see Cena winning this.