Championship Region, Fifth Round: (1) John Cena vs. (11) Daniel Bryan

[GI Cake]

John Cena doesn't have a beard. Out of the 12+ years of in the WWE and not one single strain of chin hair. D-Bry though? He's rocking Jihad beard. Don't be an idiot, vote for the guy who has the killer beard.

 

[Cereal Killer]

This is really ridiculous. What don't people understand? This was a Cena out of his prime and with a torn tricep that lost. Not John Cena in 2007. Bryan has lost clean to superstars with a lot less experience including Wyatt and Ziggler. And 50 people have still decided to vote Bryan because of that one win? These 50 people clearly have one argument which is hardly valid and let's be real, most of them are only voting for him because its Daniel Bryan they like and John Cena they dislike.

 

[Dmbfantomas]

This might be the biggest miscarriage of justice in this tournament ever that doesn't have the words "Andre" and "Ladder" involved in it.

John Cena is better than DB at everything, except for Bella picking.

 

[Savior of Silence]

I voted Daniel Bryan because I get an erection whenever Cena loses at anything. Speaking of erections, the man with the penis tattoo on his chest is going to win this whole thing regardless of who wins this match so get over it.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Contradicting my actual vote, I think John Cena should win. However:

I don't think the John Cena who lost to Daniel Bryan was out of his prime. I'd argue that John Cena, still to this day, is in his prime. He hasn't had any years long world championship reigns like Sammartino or Hogan but that's due to the business having changed rather than Cena not being of their ilk. If there's a man who's allowed a decade-long prime, it's John Cena. It's the John Cena of today who is the only man able to beat 'Russian' super athletes or inflict damage on beasts incarnate. It's the John Cena who beat Triple H and Shawn Michaels at back-to-back WrestleManias. It's the John Cena of two years ago who was still wearing the championship he'd won from The goddamn Rock when he stepped into the ring with Daniel Bryan.

Yes, John Cena did have the sort of elbow that would have stopped him walking through airport security anywhere in the world for fear that he was smuggling a hundred kilograms of cocaine in it. Yes, in reality that would have hurt him. In kayfabe, during the match, Cena made a point of going over to the ringside doctor and loudly proclaiming that his elbow felt fine and the night after explaining that his elbow wasn't any excuse, that he'd felt 100% and that the better man won. The WWE clearly didn't have any interest in their newest superface looking second best and, what's more, Cena didn't get knocked unconscious by a running knee to his elbow.

I think the kayfabe argument is entirely legitimate.

I'd also be interested, and I said this in another thread, to see if others would agree that out of all Cena's contemporaries - e.g. Edge, Punk, Orton, Batista - Bryan is the best.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

John Cena started his wrestling journey in 1999 at the age of 22, at 6'1" and 250(ish) pounds he was blessed with a natural 80's style pro-wrestler size and bodytype. At about the same time an 18 year old Bryan Danielson left school, at an average 5'10" 200(ish) pounds - he looked like the average bloke.

John had a great gimmick to begin with, a 'Terminator' T-800alike called the Prototype which helped disguise any greenness while he gained experience in UPW and (WWF developmental) OVW. Danielson, with his limited size and look, looked to improve at a pace leaning from guys like Dean Malenko, HBK and (in another WWF developmental favorite) MCW.

So far, so similar but here paths diverge. The WWF severed ties with MCW and released the cruiserweight Bryan. However, they maintained OVW and Cena rose to the top there. In 2002 Cena joined the main (newly renamed) WWe were he got an immediate push, answering two time World Champ Kurt Angle's open challenge, putting up a good show in a losing and then getting congratulated for his efforts. From there, he showed a natural charisma and connection to the crowd that (combined with aforementioned looks) lead to a skyrocket to becoming the dominant force in the company from 2005 onwards. The company got that much behind him (throwing him into WWe production 'The Marine') that some of the fanbase turned on him who probably saw similarities to the likes of Hulk Hogan and the Rock who had both gotten too big prior to him. While always improving, many older fans also felt he lacked the in-ring proficiency of fellow roster members and as a result of miraculous comebacks were he would no sell injuries dubbed him 'SuperCena'. However, a move to being child friendly, and putting their considerable marketing prowess into portraying him as a superhero with gaudy outfits to complement (and changed that frequently that even a prosports team would blush with embarasment at changing kit that often). To his credit; booed or cheered out of arenas, he maintains the same enthusiasm and (with his promotional and 'Make A Wish' Foundation work) he has done much to earn his spot.

Daniel's path was much different. Not being blessed with size, an overly unique look and lacking Cena's superstar charisma on the mic. He worked across the world in NJPW, RoH and many many other Indie organisations garnering the moniker "The Best Wrestler in the World". He tried again for the WWe but was again rejected, so continued doing what loved and growing his reputation until he was finally given a shot in WWe's new TV project that took over from their version of ECW. In NXT, he was ridiculed mercilessly for his Indie background by 'mentor' the Miz and commentator Michael Cole and forced to lose week after week. Despite this he was the most over on the show and, after the infamous tie strangling suspension (when he returned to Indie roots), he joined John Cena's team to take down his old NXT comrades. From there he has had a roller coaster ride of stop start pushes: from US / IC / tag / WHC belts to love triangles (and squares) / yo-yoing up and down the card and repeated Mania snubs. Despite this and despite still not running the risk of being the world's greatest speaker, he never lost the audience. Why? I put it down to connecting on a human level - audiences forgive his promo slips and losses and accept his massive wins because flubbing lines on the stick or winning / loosing or drawing in the ring against whomever, people still find him genuine and believable.


John Cena has 16 years in the business and has been backed completely by the WWe for 10 of those, Daniel Bryan has spent those same 16 years doing his damnest to be shown an iota of the same faith. He may lose to a midcarder - look at him, that's believable but he may also turn round and beat the best and he also makes that look believable... as he did incredibly at WMXXX... and at the 2013 SummerSlam against the past decade's icon whose history to the 2013 Slam was defeating Lesnar, overcoming (then) authority John Laurinaitis, winning MitB, being portrayed as a better man than the guy who'd held the title longer than anyone else in a quarter century, being blindside screwed out of the WHC by another authority figure, winning the Royal Rumble, beating the Rock, overcoming monsters Ryback and Mark Henry (and this was a period he also needed surgery resulting in 2 missed PPVs)... some people are very harsh in what they'll regard as 'prime'.

D-Bry deserves to edge this in kayfabe and (unless you're a 'silver spoon' type of person), he is as equally deserving for his career thus far.

 

[GI Cake]

Not over Cena in his prime.

The Daniel Bryan arguments have already started in full force ridiculousness. John Cena has numerous victories over Daniel Bryan, but we ignore all of them because of ONE match after Cena has begun stepping out of the major spotlight.

Complete and total lack of logic being displayed thus far by Bryan supporters. Which isn't surprising since there really isn't a lot of valid arguments to be made for Bryan.

I do enjoy the dishonesty of snipping out the rest of my post to try and make your point. My point still stands, if Yokozuna progressed out of the first round against Hulk fucking Hogan because of a win Yoko had over an out of prime Cena then they should vote for Bryan who did the same thing to an out of prime Cena. Then again, this dialogue doesn't really matter. The WZ tournament has entered bizzaro land as far reasoning goes.

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

Just in case it comes down to written votes, I'm putting my name down for Bryan.

And because I have to put a relevant reason; because i think he is more best lyk.

 

[Skairipa Matrix]

Good thinking, also putting my name down for Bryan. Voted for him because he's one of my all-time favorites, I prefer him over Cena and for the same reason I voted Yokozuna over Hogan.

 

[Con T.]

I'm putting myself down for Daniel Bryan, as well. Daniel Bryan does good stuff, and things. He does things in the ring I like. Daniel Bryan is a good wrestler, and I like good wrestlers.

At this point, I honestly don't give that much of a care to who wins this tournament.

 

[The Brain]

I wish Daniel Bryan was able to build on his momentum after WrestleMania last year. It was a great moment for him but it just didn't last. He's kind of like Chris Benoit. Respected technical wrestler. Good career in various promotions before WWE. WWE mid carder for a few years before getting one big victory and shortly after back to the mid card. Bryan was on top for a couple months. Cena was on top for a decade. Cena gets my vote.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

D Bry gets my written

 

[Richard Blonoff]

I should probably throw in my written vote to my boy DBry.

He entertains me more often than Cena(who does hold his own), I prefer his style to Cena, and I appreciate the fact that he has a big tally in the W column over Cena at SummerSlam for the title.

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

I'm putting in my written vote for D-Bry.

The Bryan/Authority storyline brought me back and got me excited about pro wrestling again, something I haven't honestly been able to say about WWE since the pre Cena era.

As someone who used to hate Cena, I've grown more fond of him in recent years, a lot of that is thanks to Total Divas, but I love me some D-Bry and he gets my vote.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

This is my written vote for Daniel Bryan. He made me believe that a normal looking guy could become a major hit. That a beard and index fingers could make you a WWE Champion. That it was okay to be a vegan loser. Was alright to be an underdog - something Cena ran with but I could never truly believe. I believe Bryan. I don't care about decided title reigns and accolade hype between these two. All I care about in the end is who entertains me more. Daniel Bryan wins by only a slight. I haven't grown tired of his underdog routine yet.

 

[Slyfox696]

John Cena started his wrestling journey in 1999 at the age of 22, at 6'1" and 250(ish) pounds he was blessed with a natural 80's style pro-wrestler size and bodytype. At about the same time an 18 year old Bryan Danielson left school, at an average 5'10" 200(ish) pounds - he looked like the average bloke.

John had a great gimmick to begin with, a 'Terminator' T-800alike called the Prototype which helped disguise any greenness while he gained experience in UPW and (WWF developmental) OVW. Danielson, with his limited size and look, looked to improve at a pace leaning from guys like Dean Malenko, HBK and (in another WWF developmental favorite) MCW.

So far, so similar but here paths diverge. The WWF severed ties with MCW and released the cruiserweight Bryan. However, they maintained OVW and Cena rose to the top there. In 2002 Cena joined the main (newly renamed) WWe were he got an immediate push, answering two time World Champ Kurt Angle's open challenge, putting up a good show in a losing and then getting congratulated for his efforts. From there, he showed a natural charisma and connection to the crowd that (combined with aforementioned looks) lead to a skyrocket to becoming the dominant force in the company from 2005 onwards. The company got that much behind him (throwing him into WWe production 'The Marine') that some of the fanbase turned on him who probably saw similarities to the likes of Hulk Hogan and the Rock who had both gotten too big prior to him. While always improving, many older fans also felt he lacked the in-ring proficiency of fellow roster members and as a result of miraculous comebacks were he would no sell injuries dubbed him 'SuperCena'. However, a move to being child friendly, and putting their considerable marketing prowess into portraying him as a superhero with gaudy outfits to complement (and changed that frequently that even a prosports team would blush with embarasment at changing kit that often). To his credit; booed or cheered out of arenas, he maintains the same enthusiasm and (with his promotional and 'Make A Wish' Foundation work) he has done much to earn his spot.

Daniel's path was much different. Not being blessed with size, an overly unique look and lacking Cena's superstar charisma on the mic. He worked across the world in NJPW, RoH and many many other Indie organisations garnering the moniker "The Best Wrestler in the World". He tried again for the WWe but was again rejected, so continued doing what loved and growing his reputation until he was finally given a shot in WWe's new TV project that took over from their version of ECW. In NXT, he was ridiculed mercilessly for his Indie background by 'mentor' the Miz and commentator Michael Cole and forced to lose week after week. Despite this he was the most over on the show and, after the infamous tie strangling suspension (when he returned to Indie roots), he joined John Cena's team to take down his old NXT comrades. From there he has had a roller coaster ride of stop start pushes: from US / IC / tag / WHC belts to love triangles (and squares) / yo-yoing up and down the card and repeated Mania snubs. Despite this and despite still not running the risk of being the world's greatest speaker, he never lost the audience. Why? I put it down to connecting on a human level - audiences forgive his promo slips and losses and accept his massive wins because flubbing lines on the stick or winning / loosing or drawing in the ring against whomever, people still find him genuine and believable.


John Cena has 16 years in the business and has been backed completely by the WWe for 10 of those, Daniel Bryan has spent those same 16 years doing his damnest to be shown an iota of the same faith. He may lose to a midcarder - look at him, that's believable but he may also turn round and beat the best and he also makes that look believable... as he did incredibly at WMXXX... and at the 2013 SummerSlam against the past decade's icon whose history to the 2013 Slam was defeating Lesnar, overcoming (then) authority John Laurinaitis, winning MitB, being portrayed as a better man than the guy who'd held the title longer than anyone else in a quarter century, being blindside screwed out of the WHC by another authority figure, winning the Royal Rumble, beating the Rock, overcoming monsters Ryback and Mark Henry (and this was a period he also needed surgery resulting in 2 missed PPVs)... some people are very harsh in what they'll regard as 'prime'.

D-Bry deserves to edge this in kayfabe and (unless you're a 'silver spoon' type of person), he is as equally deserving for his career thus far.

You just tried to argue Daniel Bryan should get the win because he's not as good as John Cena.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to the Daniel Bryan supporters...they don't care about facts, they don't care about reality, all they want is their bias to win. It's ridiculousness like this which long ago allowed me to take the WZ Tournament all in good fun.

I do enjoy the dishonesty of snipping out the rest of my post to try and make your point.

It's dishonest to cut out something which has no relevance to this thread?

Then you were just INCREDIBLY dishonest because you didn't quote the rest of my post, only the part that was in response to you. And I'll be damned if I'm going to let a liar and a hypocrite lecture me about honesty.

My point still stands

You had no point. Your point was completely mitigated by the fact John Cena wasn't in his prime.

if Yokozuna progressed out of the first round against Hulk fucking Hogan

Then all that shows is several people thought it was funny. There are several threads on this forum which show it was far more about the humor than the legitimacy. Furthermore, while it's the only chance Bryan apologists have, kayfabe is not the only arguments allowed in the WZ Tournament and dishonest people like you still won't address the fact John Cena is, in every way, superior to Daniel Bryan.

The WZ tournament has entered bizzaro land as far reasoning goes.

"Bizzaro land" is where the WZ Tournament lives.

 

[Slyfox696]

Good thinking, also putting my name down for Bryan. Voted for him because he's one of my all-time favorites, I prefer him over Cena and for the same reason I voted Yokozuna over Hogan.

Because you don't know anything about good wrestling?

I wish Daniel Bryan was able to build on his momentum after WrestleMania last year. It was a great moment for him but it just didn't last. He's kind of like Chris Benoit. Respected technical wrestler. Good career in various promotions before WWE. WWE mid carder for a few years before getting one big victory and shortly after back to the mid card. Bryan was on top for a couple months. Cena was on top for a decade. Cena gets my vote.

Cena is superior to Daniel Bryan in nearly every way. Good decision.

This is my written vote for Daniel Bryan. He made me believe that a normal looking guy could become a major hit.

And this right here is how the IWC has helped ruin wrestling. While the vast majority of the American audience wants to see larger than life characters, the IWC (probably because of the immense inferiority complex so many of them seem to have) demands wrestlers who look like the guy working at the local 7/11. They absolutely crap on mega stars who are larger than life characters and in no way can this be better seen than the way Batista was treated. Batista is a legitimate, bona fide movie star, a major character in a movie which broke box office records...but the IWC just crapped on him because he is a bigger than life character with muscles.

It sometimes legitimately saddens me how the Internet wrestling fan has contributed to the decline of pro wrestling.

 

[Skillz]

Since Punk left, Bryan has become the undisputed most overrated wrestler in the world. It really is sad that in this modern era of pro wrestling, a wrestler's popularity is determined by wrestling fans' desire to be "smarter" than everyone else.

All significant criteria points to Cena being better than Bryan by the widest of margins. John Cena is without question one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. He needs to advance over someone who is not, and never will be in his league.

 

[Papa Pillman]

And this right here is how the IWC has helped ruin wrestling. While the vast majority of the American audience wants to see larger than life characters, the IWC (probably because of the immense inferiority complex so many of them seem to have) demands wrestlers who look like the guy working at the local 7/11.

This is so fucking wrong and stupid and its hilarious to me that there are people still trying to sell this tripe as truth.

People don't give a shit in 2015 whether or not a wrestler is big or small or ugly, or a matinee idol. They want ONE thing. Good fucking wrestling. That's why guys like Bryan AND Cena are huge stars today. Because both work their asses off in the ring.

Why is NXT so popular? Its consistent and well written and forgoes a lot of the bullshit. That is all true. But it also has a backbone of an uppercard of elite in-ring competitors that get a chance to show it.

New Japan is the best product in the world in pro wrestling, Why? Because they have the best roster of elite in-ring talent going.

You want to revive wrestling in the modern era? Focus on the motherfucking WRESTLING. You may lose some of the "casuals" but they're gonna outgrow it or gravitate away from the business anyway. There are millions upon millions upon many, many, more millions out there who would watch wrestling religiously if a company with the platform of WWE would present the kind of in-ring wrestling product that has evolved below the glitz and glamour surface.

No one gives a shit about your precious "larger than life" or your shitted on "convenience store look". They care if a guy can go. Fucking period.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

You just tried to argue Daniel Bryan should get the win because he's not as good as John Cena.

Nope, just pointing out that because of his size and look Bryan has had to fight tooth and nail for every single break he has gotten in the business were John got a bye ball because he has the look Vince loves.

You had no point. Your point was completely mitigated by the fact John Cena wasn't in his prime.

Seriously? Cena had the greatest win percentage of his career in 2013 (95.1%) and as for accolades - defeating a debuting Lesnar, winning the Royal Rumble, defeating the Rock for the WWe title, winning the WHC, winning the Undisputed Title in a MitB match. Over the period of 497 days he won three World Championships that he held for a total of 231 days. No harm, but that's 'Prime' with a capital 'P'.

And this right here is how the IWC has helped ruin wrestling. While the vast majority of the American audience wants to see larger than life characters, the IWC (probably because of the immense inferiority complex so many of them seem to have) demands wrestlers who look like the guy working at the local 7/11. They absolutely crap on mega stars who are larger than life characters and in no way can this be better seen than the way Batista was treated. Batista is a legitimate, bona fide movie star, a major character in a movie which broke box office records...but the IWC just crapped on him because he is a bigger than life character with muscles.

It sometimes legitimately saddens me how the Internet wrestling fan has contributed to the decline of pro wrestling.

First off, Batista was not a legitimate, bona fide movie star when he left the WWe on June 2nd 2014 - he was known to be a supporting character in an upcoming Marvel movie that (at the time) was regarded as being their biggest risk to date. The reason his return was crapped upon wasn't that he is bigger in life, it was a natural reaction to the condescending way he was brought back like "This is Batista - he is a legend, he will be in the next Marvel film - you will cheer him!" The man himself didn't want to return as a good guy and he was very over as a heel when he made the logical turn.

The IWC is the reason that larger than life, muscled supermen are crapped on? Nothing to do with the headline steroid scandals and deaths that have blighted the business in the past few decades then? Talented larger wrestlers were, are and always will be very over with wrestling fans - Cena and Lesnar are proof of that.

Old time wrestling (as argued extremely well by Ech in earlier rounds) was regularly built around the smaller guy overcoming the larger powerhouse; many of comic's great characters (Spiderman, Captain America, Batman, Wolverine) are beloved because they are not the biggest or strongest and cinema has always championed the cause of the common man overcoming the odds. Daniel Bryan epitomizes all of these things.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

And this right here is how the IWC has helped ruin wrestling.

Because wrestling was never popular when wrestlers had beer guts and average builds, right?

While the vast majority of the American audience wants to see larger than life characters, the IWC (probably because of the immense inferiority complex so many of them seem to have) demands wrestlers who look like the guy working at the local 7/11.

First, let's not pretend this IWC thing isn't just a buzzword for people whose opinions you disagree with. It has as much bearing as saying "you people".

Secondly, Mick Foley and Dusty Rhodes were lauded as the Everyman character. Did wrestling decline in their day, too? All I said was I enjoy a guy that can go in the ring and I can connect with as an average Joe. Somebody that made me believe he was an underdog. John Cena didn't.

They absolutely crap on mega stars who are larger than life characters and in no way can this be better seen than the way Batista was treated. Batista is a legitimate, bona fide movie star, a major character in a movie which broke box office records...but the IWC just crapped on him because he is a bigger than life character with muscles.

Oh I'm with you here. I'm a Batista fan. But if you really think the fans should have taken him back with open arms while the most interesting thing all year takes a backseat...you're not thinking in dollar signs.

And to say Daniel Bryan isn't larger than life is absurd. The point of sports entertainment is to be larger than life. He beat 3/4 of Evolution in one night as many went on and on about. Captivated enough people to buy t-shirts with facial hair and goats on them to be employed at 7/11. It takes a special kind of character to be of average size and still make me believe he can beat a guy who sleeps in the gym.

It sometimes legitimately saddens me how the Internet wrestling fan has contributed to the decline of pro wrestling.

Because time limits,steroid scandals, trash TV and a sexist butterfly belt didn't bring it down already. A minority on the internet was the culprit.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Not sure what the rules are for a tie but if it one of those goofy write in things - I write in vote Daniel Bryan because my coworker recently sneezed without covering his mouth with his elbow and I caught a massive case of inferiority complex.

 

[Papa Pillman]

In case my post on the front page of the thread wasn't clear enough, my vote was/is for Bryan.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

A lot of times a wrestler with great personality and a wrestler with a ton of charisma can be perceived as larger than life. Larger than life doesn't necessarily mean someone who is jack to the hilt and looks like he's made out of stone but it does help greatly with that perception. The fact is a person is more likely to turn their heads and stare at a guy who is 7' tall than a guy who is 5'11" simply because it's something you don't see every day, that's why WWE often caters to giants because it's simply easier to build that larger than life perception for people that are naturally larger. That doesn't mean their physical presence is enough, they have to be able to work and play the character too but it's a lot easier for guys like that to get over. Their physical presence alone gives them something to offer, much like the guy at the freak show who can walk on coals or the bearded lady, it helps set them apart, it helps make them unique and that's a huge part of getting over in wrestling. Why would anyone want to see 4000 Shawn Michaels clones when they can just go on the WWE Network and watch Shawn Michaels afterall?

Now some have said Daniel Bryan is someone who is larger than life but in all honesty I don't think that's true at all. I certainly think he's over with the fans but he's not a guy who walks down the street and everyone points and says "look its Daniel Bryan", if they don't watch wrestling they will just think he's a normal guy walking his dog. He's not on that Hogan, Austin, or Cena level where everyone knew who they were regardless of if they watched wrestling or not. If Bryan goes to a basketball game, gets announced and the crowd goes nuts for him then we can start talking about it, they may all chant YES! but it's a catchy chant after all, saying Bryan is larger than life because people do the "YES! chant" is like saying Kernkraft 4000 is larger than life because people do the Zombienation soccer chant at sporting events, that doesn't make them larger than life.

In this day and age I still believe the casual fans want the larger than life characters, it doesn't mean someone the size of Daniel Bryan can't be larger than life but they will have to work a lot harder at it. The fact is wrestling is, has, and will always do its best business when a larger than life character is at the forefront of the promotion because it brings in the fans that would not normally watch. In the late 90's a lot of people who watched Raw didn't even like wrestling, they just liked watching a guy like Austin run amok on the boss, they liked watching a psychopath like Foley or a jock like The Rock, quite often the wrestling itself was secondary to these people.

At the end of the day it says before every tournament match to pick the wrestler that is greater and the fact is a guy like Cena is greater than Bryan and has made a much larger impact on wrestling than Bryan has, it's not even up for debate and that's why arguments like "Cena lost to Bryan at Summerslam" are dumb arguments because it completely goes against the point of the tournament, to pick the GREATEST superstar, not the one you prefer. The IWC fans may remember Bryan in 20 years but all fans will remember John Cena in 20 years, no question about that. Career wise and overall influence wise Daniel Bryan just can't compete with Cena. I may like Bryan more but I'm not blind enough to actually think he's a greater wrestler than Cena is.

 

[Skairipa Matrix]

Because you don't know anything about good wrestling?

Right because anybody who prefers Daniel Bryan over John Cena just can't possibly know good wrestling. No it can't be anything at all about who entertains them more can it?