The loser denial from Team Cena is becoming palpable. John Cena's entire career up top exist solely on the giant Lesnar sized hole that was left when Brock left in 2004. In terms of Kayfabe, this match might be a bigger squash than the Summerslam matchup. It took John Cena a chain, a set of stairs, and an act from God, to beat Lesnar in his first match in 8 years. Once Lesnar got his wrestling legs back, it was the biggest squash loss ever for Cena. I know the pro Cena crowd will throw enough shit against the wall, hoping some sort of illogical argument will stick, but don't be gullible. Lesnar wins in a squash.
Championship Region, Sixth Round: (1) John Cena vs. (11) Brock Lesnar
- Thread starter klunderbunker
- Start date
Promos, Norcal? Honestly, besides a handful in his tenure, I think that Cena's promos are a bit repetitive. Same shtick, different day kinda thing. Maybe that is just me. I have come to respect the guy, but never really liked him. Only point he has in that category is for doing them solo.
....but does that really count against Lesnar?
Which brings us to Paul F'n Heyman. Lesnar does not need to speak. He has been billed as a monster who has one goal & that is to hurt you. Their pairing is a match equal to if not better than any in wrestling.... ever. The promos that Heyman has cut on behalf of Lesnar have always been great. Paul has the mic skill and Brock is the muscle. I would put the best Heyman/Lesnar promos above the best Cena has any day of the week.
Ill give it to Cena for putting solid, consistant time in for the WWE and selling merch like few others in history. Unfortunately on overall wrestling career (not including UFC here, just wrestling) & promos, I have to give that to Brock. His latest tenure may be sporatic, but damn if he does not make an impact. Epitome of "Arrive, Raise Hell, Leave".
People may give him shit for the tattoo or his schedule, but you cannot deny his impact on wrestling has not been one for the books & you certainly cannot say that Heyman does not get you hyped as shit to see him kick some ass.
Plus, that music. Ahhhh, damn. When it hits -tell me it does not make you want to destroy something. Im sure some furniture in Casa de NorCal shows battle scars from some of that shit. Can you say that about Cena? I know I cant because he never got me that hyped to see him.
....but does that really count against Lesnar?
Which brings us to Paul F'n Heyman. Lesnar does not need to speak. He has been billed as a monster who has one goal & that is to hurt you. Their pairing is a match equal to if not better than any in wrestling.... ever. The promos that Heyman has cut on behalf of Lesnar have always been great. Paul has the mic skill and Brock is the muscle. I would put the best Heyman/Lesnar promos above the best Cena has any day of the week.
Ill give it to Cena for putting solid, consistant time in for the WWE and selling merch like few others in history. Unfortunately on overall wrestling career (not including UFC here, just wrestling) & promos, I have to give that to Brock. His latest tenure may be sporatic, but damn if he does not make an impact. Epitome of "Arrive, Raise Hell, Leave".
People may give him shit for the tattoo or his schedule, but you cannot deny his impact on wrestling has not been one for the books & you certainly cannot say that Heyman does not get you hyped as shit to see him kick some ass.
Plus, that music. Ahhhh, damn. When it hits -tell me it does not make you want to destroy something. Im sure some furniture in Casa de NorCal shows battle scars from some of that shit. Can you say that about Cena? I know I cant because he never got me that hyped to see him.
Tom Brady's entire career up top exists solely on the giant Bledsoe sized hole that was left when Bledsoe was out in 2001. Does that make Brady less than Bledsoe?
Cena had a horrible 2012. Cena only won 36% of his PPV matches that year. He did beat Lesnar. Lesnar could not beat Cena at his worst. Yes he squashed him at Summerslam, but Cena had him at NoC before the Rollins interference. If there is one thing that Lesnar has that Cena can exploit; it's that Lesnar is not good at defense. Reigns, Cena, HHH, CM Punk, all have exploited Lesnar's major weakness, but because he is such an offensive juggernaut it's hard to actually throw offense at him.
I love Brock but there is no way he has an overall better wrestling career than Cena. Lesnar does raise hell and leave but Cena's lasting impact will be felt the moment he retires and people actually reflect on his career.
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
We're seeing Lesnar's prime right now. Cena's prime? Basically any time between 2007/8 and now. Cena has gotten better every year, if you ask me.
I'm going with Brock, but it's really close. Understand this - Cena was destroyed at Summerslam due to an amazing gameplan by Brock and Heyman. Cena will never lose like that again. However, every single time they have faced one another, Lesnar has kicked the holy shit out of Cena.
I'm going with Brock, but it's really close. Understand this - Cena was destroyed at Summerslam due to an amazing gameplan by Brock and Heyman. Cena will never lose like that again. However, every single time they have faced one another, Lesnar has kicked the holy shit out of Cena.
Dmbfantomas
Bald Billy was Better
And yet, in major 1-1 contests, they're still 2-2. Cena had his title rematch against Bork won at NOC until Seth ruined everything by getting his dirty little feet in the way.
Brock has one major problem, his insane overconfidence. He likes to toy with his opponents when he has them dead, especially Cena. Cena has exploited this before and won (at Extreme Rules).
Cena is a much bigger star than Brock could ever dream to be if we're talking overall careers, so for this I have to vote Cena. It is close, though.
Also, Cena being in a dogfight with a midget doesn't sway me too much. He's a machine, and exactly the kind of guy who fights through such an ass kicking - even against Bork Laser.
Cereal Killer
Boy Better Know
Exactly. This goes against the point that Lesnar, kayfabe speaking, beats John Cena as we'll never know what would have happened that night. Perhaps Cena would have won the match and it certainly looks like he would have.
Right before he almost passed out?
It was also Reigns that speared Brock, taking him out of the match. Again, that match could have gone either way, probably to Reigns. In the Wrestlemania main event, a multiple time world champion nearly lost to a guy who hasn't even won a singles title yet, what does that tell us?
Out of prime.
See above.
Night of Champions.
I understand this weapons argument but you're forgetting that the opponent is John Cena. This is a 15 time world champion who has overcome the odds several times, including at Extreme Rules 2012. Did he use a weapon? Sure, so did Lesnar throughout the match and still lost. He did the same to beat CM Punk. Lesnar has only got one real impressive victory; the one over Cena at SummerSlam. I mean, victories over a Triple H and Undertaker way over the hill and defeating Punk at SummerSlam and Cena at Night Of Champions, thanks to interference aren't the most impressive.
Point Cena. Bigger name without a doubt. What would Lesnar be today if he fought frequently like John Cena or never went to the UFC? I guess I'm not 100% on who would win based on kayfabe but if I then threw in the star factor, the edge is given to John Cena.
Cereal Killer
Boy Better Know
So you're giving this to Lesnar because he won a one-sided match? Just because the way he beat Cena was more dominant, ignoring the fact that he was well on his way to a loss the month after?
What, after he was dominated throughout the match? Despite the fact that Lesnar was using several weapons and the match was stopped twice to check on Cena? Lesnar could not get the job done that night, shortly after Cena came off of the biggest loss in his career against The Rock. It wasn't lucky, it was simply Cena getting the better of his opponent and taking advantage of him.
What on earth does that matter? He was still going to win. Look at all of the biggest and best matches in history and hardly any are very one-sided.
I'm assuming by "that year" you mean 2014. Let's take a look at his 2014:
At the Royal Rumble, he defeated the Big Show. At 'Mania, he defeated an over the hill Undertaker. At SummerSlam, he beat John Cena. Fair enough. The month after he nearly lost to Cena.
Was it really as impressive as you're making out? Bearing in mind a man which hasn't even won a singles title was about to beat him at Wrestlemania, again after Lesnar was dominating for a long time. It seems that sometimes he gets carried away and then loses or is close to losing. Watch those videos Sly had posted demonstrating this. Lesnar could get carried away here and may then open himself up for a loss.
Poop Master Flex
Mid-Card Championship Winner
But we do know Brock can beat Cena in a standard 1 on 1 match from Summerslam. We don't know that about Cena so I don't see how that works against Lesnar here as he's proven he can take Cena in this scenario, the opposite never happened.
Yeah because Reigns was in a much better spot than Brock after an F5.
Hitting someone with a spear and pinning them are 2 completely different things. He actually has to, you know, WIN THE MATCH.
They still treat HHH like he's a god of wrestling.
See above.
Summerslam. You know, the match that actually had an ending.
All his victories aren't that impressive but the one that is impressive directly relates to the match we are using. You can't just ignore that because you want to vote for Cena.
Brock was the biggest star when he left in '04 and became the biggest draw UFC ever had. I think his star power would have survived just fine.
Outside of what was said I noticed you conveniently left out most of my arguments and my BIGGEST argument. If you really think I would vote for Lesnar over Cena just because of Summerslam then you haven't been paying much attention to what I've written in this thread. It really comes down to this for me. I don't deny from a pro wrestling standpoint that Cena is the bigger star and the greater star, I will never deny this and if this weren't a 1 night tournament where damage carried over I would give this to Cena based on that alone.
Here's the problem though, it IS a 1 night tournament and John Cena is in pretty rough shape going into this match where Lesnar is coming in relatively fresh. John Cena only got the job done once against Lesnar and during that match he was at 100%, it took every ounce of energy Cena had at 100% to put Lesnar away, it took everything he had. The difference here is he's no where near 100% for this match and no one in their right mind would ever book ANYONE over Lesnar if they're less than 100%, it just wouldn't happen. You're telling me a beat up John Cena is going to beat a monster and a former UFC champion when he's not at the top of his game? No way in hell that would happen. Cena is the greater star but the rules of the tournament work against him big time in this particular situation. He's not beating Lesnar when he just finished a war with Bryan an hour earlier. Personally I hate the damage carrying over rule, I wish it wasn't that way but it is and because of that I'm voting Lesnar.
Savior of Silence
Occasional Pre-Show
I really don't understand how there can possibly be any argument for Cena here. By the rules of this tournament, Cena just went 45 minutes in a hard battle with Daniel Bryan while Lesnar went about 20 with Austin and controlled about 75% of the match.
MAYBE if Cena won the first round by a larger margin I could see a glimmer of light. But he didn't and this really shouldn't be close.
MAYBE if Cena won the first round by a larger margin I could see a glimmer of light. But he didn't and this really shouldn't be close.
I can understand a vote for either. Indeed, if this is who is "better" or achieved more then it is Cena no question.
Who would win this match is interesting but I'm leaning towards Cena. Firstly, the damage argument is frivolous. Cena is an absolute machine and is around every single week where he wrestles multiple times. Brock is someone conditioned to wrestle a big match every few months.
Brock is currently on a streak that is truly remarkable but the majority of his success isn't anything Cena hasn't done. He defeated Triple H, fantastic. This, however, was after losing to him never-mind the fact HHH is way past his prime. Anyway, Cena has defeated HHH many times. Brock defeated Punk which is great but it is ultimately something Cena has also done and he didn't need interference.
Brock's match against Cena at Summerslam was big mainly due to the manner. There is simply no avoiding that; however, Cena has already defeated Brock. Indeed, a month later Cena was the better of the two. They are effectively on par in my eyes. Brock's performances at the Rumble and at Mania were definitely impressive but in the grand scheme of things I'm not sure they really change the outcome.
This comes down to Brock doing the impossible and defeating The Undertaker at Wrestlemania. It is arguably the single biggest feat any wrestler has ever accomplished; however, the grand sum of Cena's outweigh it. Brock can't rely purely on the streak to defeat Cena.
These two are 1-1 in big matches. The manner of Brock's win was far more impressive but Cena proved at NoC that he was a capable opponent. Indeed, everyone knows Cena has lost his fair share of battles but he always wins the war. He's done it against Hall of Famer's and he can do it against Brock.
Who would win this match is interesting but I'm leaning towards Cena. Firstly, the damage argument is frivolous. Cena is an absolute machine and is around every single week where he wrestles multiple times. Brock is someone conditioned to wrestle a big match every few months.
Brock is currently on a streak that is truly remarkable but the majority of his success isn't anything Cena hasn't done. He defeated Triple H, fantastic. This, however, was after losing to him never-mind the fact HHH is way past his prime. Anyway, Cena has defeated HHH many times. Brock defeated Punk which is great but it is ultimately something Cena has also done and he didn't need interference.
Brock's match against Cena at Summerslam was big mainly due to the manner. There is simply no avoiding that; however, Cena has already defeated Brock. Indeed, a month later Cena was the better of the two. They are effectively on par in my eyes. Brock's performances at the Rumble and at Mania were definitely impressive but in the grand scheme of things I'm not sure they really change the outcome.
This comes down to Brock doing the impossible and defeating The Undertaker at Wrestlemania. It is arguably the single biggest feat any wrestler has ever accomplished; however, the grand sum of Cena's outweigh it. Brock can't rely purely on the streak to defeat Cena.
These two are 1-1 in big matches. The manner of Brock's win was far more impressive but Cena proved at NoC that he was a capable opponent. Indeed, everyone knows Cena has lost his fair share of battles but he always wins the war. He's done it against Hall of Famer's and he can do it against Brock.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
I voted for Cena on the grounds that he's there.
Here's the thing: people love Lesnar because he shows up every now and then, throws a lot of suplexes, then leaves. Yeah, it's cool to see every now and then, but if that's all we saw every month, the luster wears off in a hurry. Even I was getting a bit bored with all the suplexes on Reigns at Wrestlemania. People complain about Cena using the Five Moves of Doom, but Lesnar is right there with him:
Belly to belly
German
Punch
F5
Kimura
It took punch to get him to five moves. At least Cena does a little dance before the Shuffle.
CEna has been the man every week for the better part of 10 years and is in action every Monday night now that he's the US Champion. Brock Lesnar might wrestle five matches a year if he's busy. Yeah he's awesome when we see him and you hear about how great he is all the time, but in the words of Cena when he was responding to Rock, he's here every week to show it.
Vote for the guy that wrestles for a living instead of just appearing and throwing suplexes: John Cena.
Here's the thing: people love Lesnar because he shows up every now and then, throws a lot of suplexes, then leaves. Yeah, it's cool to see every now and then, but if that's all we saw every month, the luster wears off in a hurry. Even I was getting a bit bored with all the suplexes on Reigns at Wrestlemania. People complain about Cena using the Five Moves of Doom, but Lesnar is right there with him:
Belly to belly
German
Punch
F5
Kimura
It took punch to get him to five moves. At least Cena does a little dance before the Shuffle.
CEna has been the man every week for the better part of 10 years and is in action every Monday night now that he's the US Champion. Brock Lesnar might wrestle five matches a year if he's busy. Yeah he's awesome when we see him and you hear about how great he is all the time, but in the words of Cena when he was responding to Rock, he's here every week to show it.
Vote for the guy that wrestles for a living instead of just appearing and throwing suplexes: John Cena.
Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.
Kamehamehaaaaa!!
Had this been a first round match, I'd definately give my vote to Cena. But c'mon people, Cena's half dead at the moment. How much can he last against a guy like Lesnar, who's on a better contition, stamina-wise.
As I said, had this been first-round, it's Cena all the way. But this tounament has some rules, like damage taken in one round carries on to the next.
My vote: Lesnar.
As I said, had this been first-round, it's Cena all the way. But this tounament has some rules, like damage taken in one round carries on to the next.
My vote: Lesnar.
Mighty NorCal
SHALL WE BEGIN?
I mean, he only went toe to toe with the Rock for the better part of two years. His promos has only been the backbone of WWE programming for a decade now.
And yes, it does, when evaluating the overall quality of a pro wrestler.
Still happened though.
NOT. CENA. IN HIS PRIME.
This is not Nam' Shocky, there are RULES
Cereal Killer
Boy Better Know
Watch the ending. Brock didn't look like he was going to kick out. Besides, Cena had delivered an AA, the STF and then another AA. During this time, Brock did not touch Cena once. Perhaps Cena would have delivered a final AA had Brock kicked out and then gone on to win the match.
Again, we're not 100% sure on what would have happened but this was a match against Roman Reigns. He hasn't ever won a singles title and he almost beat Lesnar after being dominated for the majority of the match. What I'm trying to say is that Lesnar could get carried away here and eventually Cena could find a way to win, something that has happened to Lesnar before, in the WWE and also the UFC.
What on earth does that matter? He's still over the hill. Hogan is treated like a God in wrestling so does that mean if Brock beat him today, we'd still give him loads of credit?
I'm not ignoring that. I've actually acknowledged it. But I'm also taking into account the match at Night Of Champions.
Biggest star in 2004? You could double what he was and he still doesn't even come close to John Cena. And what if Lesnar fought frequently, as in every week on RAW? I doubt he'd be as popular as he is at the moment.
Because of my reasons provided in previous posts and also taking into account the damage factor (which makes this fun but I still hate it), I'm still undecided but then if I add in the star factor, it goes to Cena.
Poop Master Flex
Mid-Card Championship Winner
All I got to say is this, I'm just done with quotes at this point because we aren't going to see eye to eye on some of this and considering a lot of it is speculation and heresay it really just depends what side of the fence you're on.
As I've said before I will never argue Cena as a wrestler is ahead of Lesnar by a large margin, he's been the top dog for over 10 years and no one has really come close to knocking him off the mountain top. Also, if Cena won his last match and crushed Bryan (which he should have) then I would vote Cena without a question. With that said I can't ignore the respect that Brock gets in wrestling in the sense he's often treated as an unstoppable monster, this is the same guy that was given the privilege of ending Taker's streak after all and it's quite obvious Vince has a major boner for the guy. I understand that Vince isn't booking this, we are but I can't put Cena over Lesnar if he's not at 100% given the respect Lesnar has been given his entire wrestling career. I can't see any situation where Cena win's given how beat up he is, most guys I would argue he could win. The impression has always been given Cena can beat Lesnar but only if he gives everything he's got, he's not someone who can walk in with significant damage and take Lesnar, no one can, it's just the way Lesnar has been booked.
The fact is Lesnar is too strong for anyone to walk in at less than 100% and win, you bring all you got or you get conquered (actually even at 100% most will fall to Lesnar with ease), that's the way it is with Lesnar, that's the way it's always been and I don't see anyone changing that, even John Cena. I wanted to vote for Cena on this, I really did but my better sense is telling me this is Lesnar's match to win. It's not that I think you don't make good points or that you're wrong, I don't and I understand why some want to vote for Cena here, I really do but I just can't do that given everything I just said.
As I've said before I will never argue Cena as a wrestler is ahead of Lesnar by a large margin, he's been the top dog for over 10 years and no one has really come close to knocking him off the mountain top. Also, if Cena won his last match and crushed Bryan (which he should have) then I would vote Cena without a question. With that said I can't ignore the respect that Brock gets in wrestling in the sense he's often treated as an unstoppable monster, this is the same guy that was given the privilege of ending Taker's streak after all and it's quite obvious Vince has a major boner for the guy. I understand that Vince isn't booking this, we are but I can't put Cena over Lesnar if he's not at 100% given the respect Lesnar has been given his entire wrestling career. I can't see any situation where Cena win's given how beat up he is, most guys I would argue he could win. The impression has always been given Cena can beat Lesnar but only if he gives everything he's got, he's not someone who can walk in with significant damage and take Lesnar, no one can, it's just the way Lesnar has been booked.
The fact is Lesnar is too strong for anyone to walk in at less than 100% and win, you bring all you got or you get conquered (actually even at 100% most will fall to Lesnar with ease), that's the way it is with Lesnar, that's the way it's always been and I don't see anyone changing that, even John Cena. I wanted to vote for Cena on this, I really did but my better sense is telling me this is Lesnar's match to win. It's not that I think you don't make good points or that you're wrong, I don't and I understand why some want to vote for Cena here, I really do but I just can't do that given everything I just said.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
I voted for Cena because he is the better pro wrestler, and this isn't a shoot match. Who cares if Cena just went through a war with Daniel Bryan, he could just as easily work a match with Lesnar and win because these aren't shoots. Cena has the stamina. If there had been some kayfabe or legit issue with him blowing up after 40 minutes of continuous action, then I can see it, but he hasn't. Ever. Cena is known for his cardio and his vitality. He can soak up tons of damage and keep going. We don't call him "Super Cena" for no reason.
The people voting Lesnar are obviously treating this like a shoot and not a pro wrestling match.
The people voting Lesnar are obviously treating this like a shoot and not a pro wrestling match.
IDK, man. Brock was kicking ass in wrestling before Vince even heard of the guy. If you want to take in account strictly the WWE resume, then Cena may have the edge based on titles and longevity, but Brock sure has accomplished tons in a short period of time. I was going for overall wrestling career and trying to keep the UFC arguments out of it.
There were some fun moments from both, but the time frame ruined a bit of the hype for me. Long stretch, that one was.
But again, what about the Heyman factor? The dynamic of Lesnar taking care of the in ring business while Heyman wrecks it on the mic surely applies to the equation. Points have to go to Brock there in my opinion. Heyman is too good to ignore & its all part of the complete Suplex City visitors package.
Poop Master Flex
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Kayfabe wise Cena has wrestled matches after a war and lost pretty handily in the next match, take Edge beating him at New Years Revolution in like 2 minutes after he just survived an Elimination chamber match, this might not be a chamber match but considering the rules of the tournament I can't imagine him in much better shape then he was on that particular night and since we're talking kayfabe here how about the kayfabe part where Lesnar handily defeated a star bigger than Cena in Stone Cold Steve Austin. Who in their right mind would have Cena beat Lesnar after a war when Lesnar just beat Austin? The only people that would ever book that are people with a massive hard on for Cena, anyone with a shred of common sense wouldn't book that, especially since it's always been booked that Cena has a very difficult time with Lesnar as it is.
Maybe the problem isn't guys like me treating this like a shoot, maybe it's guys like you who ignore how strong Lesnar has been presented because you want Cena to win despite all points of logic screaming otherwise.
Mr. Artistic guy
Better Off This Way
"In addition, people are forgetting that Cena was actually going to beat Lesnar in their rematch at Night Of Champions, until Rollins had interfered."
I seem to have read this countless times since this match started. Sure. If almost winning is some sort of credential is worth considering, well done, Cena has almost won this match.
Fact is, Lesnar has beaten Cena at the height of both, and I don't believe the convenient snubbing of Cena's prime shortly before he fought Lesnar. Oh yeah. That only why he was both the WWE champ and the guy they picked to feed to Lesnar.
Cena is the almost guy. Almost good. Lesnar is good and doesn't have the endless slew of overrated credentials that Cena can sport. Cena 15 world titles are roughly equivalent to The Rock's many title reigns. Hot potato-ing the title does not count in the favour of the lesser man, it only demonstrates how ridiculous his spotlight is.
I seem to have read this countless times since this match started. Sure. If almost winning is some sort of credential is worth considering, well done, Cena has almost won this match.
Fact is, Lesnar has beaten Cena at the height of both, and I don't believe the convenient snubbing of Cena's prime shortly before he fought Lesnar. Oh yeah. That only why he was both the WWE champ and the guy they picked to feed to Lesnar.
Cena is the almost guy. Almost good. Lesnar is good and doesn't have the endless slew of overrated credentials that Cena can sport. Cena 15 world titles are roughly equivalent to The Rock's many title reigns. Hot potato-ing the title does not count in the favour of the lesser man, it only demonstrates how ridiculous his spotlight is.
Mighty NorCal
SHALL WE BEGIN?
We aren't comparing Cena and Lesnar plus Heyman, we are comparing Lesnar and Cena.
I think given the tournament rules... Brock has a slight edge which would take him over the line.
Had Cena gotten a more decisive victory over Bryan in the last round, I'd have given him my vote, but I say with a fresh Lesnar and a Cena that was taken to the limit... SuperCena would run Brock close, but a 3rd F5 to Cena would be lights out after a complimentary trip to Suplex City.
Vote Brock.
Had Cena gotten a more decisive victory over Bryan in the last round, I'd have given him my vote, but I say with a fresh Lesnar and a Cena that was taken to the limit... SuperCena would run Brock close, but a 3rd F5 to Cena would be lights out after a complimentary trip to Suplex City.
Vote Brock.
Nate DaMac
Fuck erbody but me
He had the match won cleanly until Rollins interfered. He actually did win the match.
Neither man has a clean win over the other in their prime. That wipes the kayfabe slate clean in my eyes.
Going Cena because he's obviously the bigger contributor.
Cena 2008 got handled by Batista 2008. Lesnar is far more devastating than Batista ever was in his prime. It would be a good match, but this Lesnar is something we have never seen.
Mighty NorCal
SHALL WE BEGIN?
I wouldn't call an aerial move reversed into a finisher "getting handled". Certainley not some major advantage for Lesnar.
Pay Per Ghost
What they f*ck happened in the thread section here
Absolutely. But, if this is a Mania ME and you have built a juggernaut heel machine like Lesnar going into face the SuperCena, who wins?
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