Int Region, Third Round, Dog Collar Match: (1) Steve Austin vs. (9) Vader

[Steamboat Ricky]

And once again, Steamboat Ricky is committing the cardinal sins of the WZ Tournament.

Should be a good time.

1. He's overvaluing the WWE. Top guy in the WWE must translate into automatic victor.

Overvaluing the WWE. You know...the most successful professional wrestling company in the history of the world. Better go back and vote for Ken Shamrock since he was once the top guy in a budding NWA/TNA.

2. He's focusing solely on booking, which defeats the purpose of the tournament.

I forgot that this isn't a fake tournament about fake wrestling, a fake sport that has pre-determined matches whose outcomes are decided by someone called a booker. I didn't realize that this was a legitimate fighting contest, but I guess I should have realized that you thought it was...you know...since Vader purposely beat the crap out of his colleagues on a nightly basis. I forgot that.

To that, I remind you that in the International Region, the WWE booking HAS NO FUCKING RELEVANCE.

Most popular wrestling company in the world. If Steve Austin would have been booked in NJPW, he would have gone over to draw more money for successive shows. It's how the industry works.

Vince isn't booking this tournament or this match.

So wait...you're admitting that it's predetermined? Flip-flopping your argument...one of the CARDINAL SINS OF THE WZ TOURNAMENT.

It's international, which means it's Vader's wheelhouse.

International. Where Vader had to go because he couldn't draw a dime in the States...which is what Steve Austin was doing better than anyone had in the history of fake wrestling. So, you're right, Austin didn't go International...because in terms of revenue, Vader's international scene was minor leagues comparatively.

So who wins? The Durham Bulls or the New York Yankees?

How are you not getting this? Do you even READ my posts, or just post out your own ass?

I have many talents of which you are not aware.

3. Overvaluing faces / /popularity.

Breaking news: Drew McIntyre is taking on Kwee Wee in the main event this year at Wrestlemania, because being a babyface and/or popular doesn't matter that much in generating revenue in wrestling.

Austin was popular, so he wins a kayfabe tournament automatically?

No. But he beats a guy like Vader, who...kayfabe-wise...is consistently defeated by the likes of babyfaces like Austin.

This isn't a "favorite wrestler" tournament, despite how badly you want it to be.

Be it "kayfabe" or through an objective lens, it would be an absolute injustice to wrestling for Vader to go over Steve Austin, objectively the best draw in wrestling history.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

The utter grandeur of YOU posting THIS in spite of overwelming evidence that Vader isnt even in the same class as Austin in numerous components that someone should consider when voting in this tournament is fucking delicous. Hilarious. I no longer need to eat dinner, nor watch any tv for the rest of the night.

I call bullshit. You don't skip a) food or b) TV for anything other than a) sex, b) creatine, or c) sex with creatine.

Go back and read my first post. I make quite clear my trepidation towards the very real possibility that anonymous internet posters will see the names and vote for the more popular Steve Austin without making a cogent argument.

Rather than go back and forth with each Vader-hater, I'll merely reiterate the reasons why Vader wins this match.

1. Attaching a 10 foot chain to a man's once broken neck and placing a brutal 450-lb monster with World Championships on three different continents does not bode well for said man-with-broken neck.

2. Big Van Vader is the greatest Superheavyweight of all time - he has Austin's number in strength and speed, does not give up anything in the way of speed or agility, matches Austin in toughness and brutality, and has one of the greatest minds in wrestling history, Harley Race, as his manager.

3. While Vader dominates this contest in a kayfabe sense, which is how I view each of these matches, the idea that Vader should lose because of Austin's drawing power is a loose argument. Vader was booked to become the World Champion in several countries, often at the expense of the local hero, which was not a common occurrence. He went over Otto Wanz for a World Title in Germany, Sting for a World Title in the US, El Canek for a World Title in Mexico, and Tatsumi Fujinami for a World Title in Japan. Steve Austin, on the other hand, never accomplished anything outside of a North American promotion.

4. Vader's strength, speed, brutality, and toughness will overmatch Steve Austin and his bum neck, popularity notwithstanding.

 

[The Brain]

Here’s the thing about Austin being a top draw; this tournament is filled with top draws. Being a top draw pretty much automatically gets you into the third round, but once we get to the gimmicks I think it’s best to use a little more imagination. Otherwise, like IC has said, we may as well just make this an eight man tournament with the same names every year. It’s not unreasonable for a top draw like Austin to lose to someone like Vader because there will be another top draw in the next round to try to take Vader out. This particular match gives Vader a chance to beat Austin and give us some fresh matches in the later rounds while still allowing the fans to go home happy after one of their other favorite draws wins the tournament.

If you want to vote on popularity and drawing ability, and you are perfectly within your right to do so, then vote Austin. If you want to use a little imagination and think about how a match might play out then give it a little more thought. You might still decide to vote for Austin. That’s fine. I almost voted for him too. I do see a scenario where Vader can get past Austin so I gave my vote to the mastodon.

 

[Bernkastel]

Well, this thread has been a clusterfuck, but I might as well throw in my two cents. I voted for Stone Cold, because he was a much bigger and more popular star than Vader. Vader's prime was in Japan. He did not reach the heights in WWE or WCW as he did in New Japan. In New Japan he beat Inoki 7 times; but he also lost to Inoki 22 times. Not to mention Hashimoto - NJPW's other big draw - he has a record of 17 wins and 23 losses. Vader held the IWGP world title 3 times, and two of those reigns were just barely over a month long. The other was just under a year.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=5&nr=145

Also keep in mind that this was in the early 90's; New Japan was making more money than All Japan, but as I pointed out in the Undy/Misawa thread, under Misawa All Japan became a credible powerhouse again.

In All Japan in the late 90's Vader - post WWE and WCW runs - won the Triple Crown and held it for just over a month before dropping it to Misawa - the flagship star - he held it for 3 months before Vader got it back.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=5&nr=24

Vader held it for 2 months before dropping to Kobashi, who was a lesser star than Misawa. A few months later saw the creation of NOAH when Misawa split from All Japan, and Vader followed him. He held the GNC tag titles, but did not amount to anything else.

IC is right to say that Vader was a big star with longevity as a big star; but he was never the BIGGEST star, nor was he ever impactful as a champion. Stone Cold was the biggest star in WWE in the 90's, and his title reigns were among the most significant in company history. Vader's reigns were usually dull, and lasted only a couple months or less. Sure, he did beat Misawa and had a long reign, but at that point Vader was nothing but an glorified attraction. And his popularity was nowhere near Misawa's - who was basically the Stone Cold of Japan at the time.

So for the TL;DR version I voted Stone Cold because he was the bigger star and would have won this match regardless. We aren't booking feuds here; just one a off. And in a one off there's no way that Austin would lose to Vader.

 

[PsychoBlack]

Well, this thread has been a clusterfuck, but I might as well throw in my two cents. I voted for Stone Cold, because he was a much bigger and more popular star than Vader. Vader's prime was in Japan. He did not reach the heights in WWE or WCW as he did in New Japan. In New Japan he beat Inoki 7 times; but he also lost to Inoki 22 times. Not to mention Hashimoto - NJPW's other big draw - he has a record of 17 wins and 23 losses. Vader held the IWGP world title 3 times, and two of those reigns were just barely over a month long. The other was just under a year.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=5&nr=145

Also keep in mind that this was in the early 90's; New Japan was making more money than All Japan, but as I pointed out in the Undy/Misawa thread, under Misawa All Japan became a credible powerhouse again.

In All Japan in the late 90's Vader - post WWE and WCW runs - won the Triple Crown and held it for just over a month before dropping it to Misawa - the flagship star - he held it for 3 months before Vader got it back.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=5&nr=24

Vader held it for 2 months before dropping to Kobashi, who was a lesser star than Misawa. A few months later saw the creation of NOAH when Misawa split from All Japan, and Vader followed him. He held the GNC tag titles, but did not amount to anything else.

IC is right to say that Vader was a big star with longevity as a big star; but he was never the BIGGEST star, nor was he ever impactful as a champion. Stone Cold was the biggest star in WWE in the 90's, and his title reigns were among the most significant in company history. Vader's reigns were usually dull, and lasted only a couple months or less. Sure, he did beat Misawa and had a long reign, but at that point Vader was nothing but an glorified attraction. And his popularity was nowhere near Misawa's - who was basically the Stone Cold of Japan at the time.

So for the TL;DR version I voted Stone Cold because he was the bigger star and would have won this match regardless. We aren't booking feuds here; just one a off. And in a one off there's no way that Austin would lose to Vader.

Must you make it a point to suck Misawa's dick in every thread you post in?

In a regular match this would be fine, Austin goes over Vader because he's a bigger draw. The third round serves the purpose of throwing that out of the window. Vader has a chain wrapped around Austin's reconstructed neck and has the power to do whatever he wants with him. Austin can't win this match he's outmatched physically and his character isn't smart enough to back away from a fight with the monster.

Vader wins.

 

[Bernkastel]

Must you make it a point to suck Misawa's dick in every thread you post in?

Because Vader's prime came when he worked in Japan, and he worked with Misawa during his

It's not a hard concept.

In a regular match this would be fine, Austin goes over Vader because he's a bigger draw. The third round serves the purpose of throwing that out of the window.

It does? I had no fucking idea that we were booking feuds here... oh wait, we aren't. so why should the gimmick matter when neither guy is really all that affected?

Vader has a chain wrapped around Austin's reconstructed neck and has the power to do whatever he wants with him. Austin can't win this match he's outmatched physically and his character isn't smart enough to back away from a fight with the monster.

So Austin loses because he's weaker than Vader? Did you happen to catch the shit arguments thread where I said that apparently popularity means nothing, but size does? That's referring to this thread.

And apparently Austin is stupid for engaging Vader in a match where he has no choice... don't be ******ed. In a one off there's no way Austin loses a match to an inferior wrestler, when the gimmick isn't actually a detriment to either.

 

[PsychoBlack]

Because Vader's prime came when he worked in Japan, and he worked with Misawa during his

It's not a hard concept.

I'd say Vader's prime extended after he left Japan into his run in WCW and ended when he got to the WWF, but, whatever I'm sure you'll find another way to say Misawa's great here in a thread that has nothing to do with him.

It does? I had no fucking idea that we were booking feuds here... oh wait, we aren't. so why should the gimmick matter when neither guy is really all that affected?

We aren't booking feuds, we're voting oh who would go over in random gimmick matches. If we were just voting on who was the bigger star and who sold more T-shirts what fun would this tournament be?

So Austin loses because he's weaker than Vader? Did you happen to catch the shit arguments thread where I said that apparently popularity means nothing, but size does? That's referring to this thread.

No, Austin loses because he has a chain around his reconstructed neck and on the other end stands a 6 foot 6 450 pound monster who wants to kill him.

And apparently Austin is stupid for engaging Vader in a match where he has no choice... don't be ******ed. In a one off there's no way Austin loses a match to an inferior wrestler, when the gimmick isn't actually a detriment to either.

First of all I must say your quite childish with your constant use of the word "******". "******s" can't help themselves and have no choice except to be the way that they are I someone should have taught you better down the road.
Now, no Austin's not stupid for taking the fight to Vader it's just not smart to go head up with someone who's bigger, faster, and stronger than you are in a match like this because once your in your in and you cant go back and re think your strategy. Ric Flair, a man similar in size to Austin defeated Vader using a stick and move strategy, could you see Austin doing that? Me neither

Vote Vader

 

[deem]

Ok Echelon, you've got your pet peeves in this tournament, that's cool. A lot of the things that irritate you irritate me too. I got my own. Number one is people that say "xxx was more popular, he would win" with no regard to anything else.

That's a pet peeve because it entirely destroys this tournament. I enjoy this tournament a lot, how boring would it get if you randomly rotated between Hogan and Austin winning every year due to them being the biggest draws ever, and thats it. Tune in for WZ tournament 2014, where we eagerly await the draw when we can work out exactly who gets how far! See that Bret Hart has no one that's a statistically bigger draw up until the quarter final, that's going to be a good run for him before he loses to Austin. Sure he beat him a lot in real life, doesn't matter, Austin's the bigger draw!

Yeah, that's my biggest peeve. What exactly are you debating when you say a) the gimmick doesn't matter and b) No way Austin loses to Vader. What's even the point of having gimmick matches with that attitude. What's the point of the entire tournament with that attitude. This is just about the best gimmick draw Vader could of got, for numerous reasons stated. Deflecting all those with "it doesn't matter, Austin wouldn't lose to Vader" renders almost every match pointless.

I know you're trying to make a point to defend Austin going over, but how can this be fun when treating it like that. If everyone did the same, this whole thing becomes worthless. I don't want that to happen, it's the only time I'm semi-active on a wrestling board now when I used to love it.

If you want to murder the WZ tournament, vote for Austin. If you want to preserve what it is, either justify Austin better than "he's a big name" or Vote Vader.

There's plenty of fine Austin arguments in this thread btw, I'm not shooting on all the Stone Cold votes .

 

[Bernkastel]

I'd say Vader's prime extended after he left Japan into his run in WCW and ended when he got to the WWF, but, whatever I'm sure you'll find another way to say Misawa's great here in a thread that has nothing to do with him.

Apparently you lack the ability to read properly, or you wouldn't have missed where I said Vader's prime in Japan came when he was working with New Japan. Not All Japan. He was basically a transitional champion no matter what promotion he worked for, as I pointed out.

We aren't booking feuds, we're voting oh who would go over in random gimmick matches.

And that's the bigger star; you don't book bigger stars to lose one off's. You'd have a valid argument if this was a match that 100% favored the weaker star. Like Kane vs Austin in a first blood match...

If we were just voting on who was the bigger star and who sold more T-shirts what fun would this tournament be?

People say this shit every year, and yet Hogan, Rikidozan, Santo - the three biggest stars of the major countries that have pro wrestling - have never won before. In the end the tournament always comes down to a popularity contest anyway.

No, Austin loses because he has a chain around his reconstructed neck and on the other end stands a 6 foot 6 450 pound monster who wants to kill him.

So Austin is helpless and can't defend himself, and just lets Vader hit him? That has to be the dumbest thing I've read the entire tournament.

Now, no Austin's not stupid for taking the fight to Vader it's just not smart to go head up with someone who's bigger, faster, and stronger than you are in a match like this because once your in your in and you cant go back and re think your strategy.

And yet that's exactly what Austin was known for his entire career. He'd fight big guys like Undertaker, Kane, and Big Show head on and beat them because he was an ass kicker... that was his gimmick.

And the childish card coming from the guy constantly downgrading the popularity argument, to try and justify a vote for his favorite, sounds really ignorant.

Ric Flair, a man similar in size to Austin defeated Vader using a stick and move strategy, could you see Austin doing that? Me neither

Last I checked Austin wasn't Ric Flair. Nice try though.

 

[PsychoBlack]

Apparently you lack the ability to read properly, or you wouldn't have missed where I said Vader's prime in Japan came when he was working with New Japan. Not All Japan. He was basically a transitional champion no matter what promotion he worked for, as I pointed out.

So why'd you mention Misawa? Actually I don't even care, I've realized logic isn't your strong suit.

And that's the bigger star; you don't book bigger stars to lose one off's. You'd have a valid argument if this was a match that 100% favored the weaker star. Like Kane vs Austin in a first blood match...

This is a gimmick match as I've stated before, all of the big draw shit goes out of the window here because there is a variable to the match now.

People say this shit every year, and yet Hogan, Rikidozan, Santo - the three biggest stars of the major countries that have pro wrestling - have never won before.

Because of this gimmick round DUH!!!!!!

In the end the tournament always comes down to a popularity contest anyway.

Not really it always comes down to a wrestler that can survive in multiple environments and face adversity, or whoever has the luckiest draw. Either way not a popularity contest, because if it was Hogan, Austin, Rock, Flair, Cena and whoever the IWC is drooling over that month would be the only ones in the tournament.

So Austin is helpless and can't defend himself, and just lets Vader hit him? That has to be the dumbest thing I've read the entire tournament.

That's not what I said. Austin would take the fight to Vader, that's not a fight that he can win.

And yet that's exactly what Austin was known for his entire career. He'd fight big guys like Undertaker, Kane, and Big Show head on and beat them because he was an ass kicker... that was his gimmick.

He also lost to all these guys to.

And the childish card coming from the guy constantly downgrading the popularity argument, to try and justify a vote for his favorite, sounds really ignorant.

Vader's not my favorite. Logically he would win this match.

Last I checked Austin wasn't Ric Flair. Nice try though.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bernkastel]

So why'd you mention Misawa? Actually I don't even care, I've realized logic isn't your strong suit.

To show that Vader was a transitional champ and a novelty at the time. I know you struggle with reading comprehension and all, but do at least try and keep up.

This is a gimmick match as I've stated before, all of the big draw shit goes out of the window here because there is a variable to the match now.

Er... no it doesn't. In fact most of the shit arguments and wanking originates from the gimmick rounds. Dress Vader up in a suit of armor, and put him in a first blood match against Austin and you'd have a valid argument. A dog collar match isn't something that would be 100% in Vader's favor - at most it's 50%.

Factor in the fact that Austin was a bigger star and presto! You've found your winner.

Not really it always comes down to a wrestler that can survive in multiple environments and face adversity, or whoever has the luckiest draw. Either way not a popularity contest, because if it was Hogan, Austin, Rock, Flair, Cena and whoever the IWC is drooling over that month would be the only ones in the tournament.

You are vastly underrating Austin to claim that he couldn't survive harsh environments, because he has... multiple times. Last I checked the IWC hated Hogan and Cena, and they always get pretty far. You wanna know why? Because being popular is part of defining the quality of a pro wrestler.

That's not what I said. Austin would take the fight to Vader, that's not a fight that he can win.

Based on what exactly? Austin has kicked the shit out of the Undertaker, out of Kane, and out of the Big Show. I'm not saying that Austin wouldn't take a beating, but at the end of it Austin would win. He the one that wins the big matches; Vader isn't.

He also lost to all these guys to.

He has a winning record against all three. The only gimmick match that Austin has lost that was overwhelmingly against him was a first blood match. Is this a first blood match? No? Then the stipulation isn't going to be 100% against him.

Vader's not my favorite. Logically he would win this match.

Austin's overwhelming popularity doesn't matter, but apparently Vader auto wins cuz he's big. Shit argument indeed.

 

[Tastycles]

People seem to think that voting for Austin based on his superior popularity is flawed. It isn't.

The purpose of the gimmick matches, in my mind, is to differentiate between close matches and to make the later rounds more interesting. Take Savage vs Warrior. In most contexts, Warrior would lose, but in the match they have, he's winning. Take Angle vs Sting. That one could have gone either way, but the last time I checked, Sting was dominating.

Vader vs Stone Cold, the stipulation is irrelevant because Steve Austin is such the superior wrestler to Vader that it beggars belief that intelligent wrestling posters think that Austin would ever lose this.

Vader was a journeyman. That is a fact. Austin has made more money for his company than any other wrestler in history, thanks to ratings, PPVs and merchandise. That is a fact.

There is not a booker in the world that would kick Austin out now, for Vader to go on and face Bruno Sammartino, who I don't doubt has absolutely no chance in the next round despite having been a world champion for 10 years. What use is that when you're as popular as Prince Albert in Japan?

Vader's unprofessional approach to professional wrestling never washed well with bookers, which is why he was never anywhere for very long. In his brief time in WCW, he ruptured Sting's spleen, broke a jobber's back, and both broke Foley's nose and tore his ear off. Well done. The goal in professional wrestling is to have fake fights that people want to see, Vader has consistently achieved neither of those points.

I'm absolutely tired of people bringing up Vader's stint with WCW as if it was him dominating from 1991-1993. At first, they barely used him on PPV because he wasn't a draw. He signed with them before the Great American Bash in 1990, and his debut consisted of beating Tom Zenk. HERE COMES THE MONEY.

His PPV record from then on was as follows:

Halloween Havoc 1990 - not on the card
Starrcade 1990 - not on the card
WrestleWar 1991 - 7th match of ten, 6 minutes, double DQ vs Stan Hansen
WCW/New Japan Supershow I - The man who is "huge in Japan" gets a dark tag team match victory
SuperBrawl I - not on the card
Great American Bash 1991 - not on the card
Halloween Havoc 1991 - 1st match on the card, on losing side of 8-man tag Chamber of Horrors, 12 minutes, late replacement for Barry Windham.
Starrcade 1991 - This was the battle bowl show, he was in it, and lasted a long time in the first ring. Not so long in the second ring.
WCW/New Japan Supershow II - 4th match out of 7, 5 minutes, double DQ vs El Gigante
SuperBrawl II - not on the card
WrestleWar 1992 - not on the card
Beach Blast 1992 - not on the card
The Great American Bash 1992 - Beats Sting to win WCW Championship, but the main event is for the NWA Tag Team Championships
Halloween Havoc 1992 - 3rd match of 7, win vs Nikita Koloff, 11 minutes
Starrcade 1992 - another battle bowl, makes it to the final, doesn't feature in the result
WCW/New Japan SuperShow III - not on the card
SuperBrawl III - his first PPV main event, strap match vs Sting.
Slamboree 1993 - main event, DQ loss vs. Davey Boy Smith for WCW title
Beach Blast 1993 - main event tag team w/ Sid Vicious, loss to Davey Boy and Sting
Fall Brawl 1993 - main event, War games 4 vs 4, loses to a team featuring The Shockmaster
Halloween Havoc 1993 - main event, wins Texas Death match vs Cactus Jack
Battlebowl - wins main event
Starrcade 1993 - main event, loses to Ric Flair
SuperBrawl IV - main event, loses to Ric Flair
Spring Stampede 1994 - 8th match of 9, 9 minutes, beats The Boss
Slamboree 1994 - main event, loses to Sting
Bash at the Beach 1994 - 2nd match of 6, 8 minutes, DQ win vs The Guardian Angel
Fall Brawl 1994 - 8th match of 9, 30 minutes, beats Sting and The Guardian Angel in a triangle match
Halloween Havoc 1994 - 6th match of 8, 8 minutes, beats The Guardian Angel
Starrcade 1994 - curtain jerker, 12 minuted, wins US title off Jim Duggan
SuperBrawl V - main event, DQ loss to Hulk Hogan
Uncensored 1995 - main event, loses strap match vs Hogan
Slamboree 1995 - main event, tag match w/ Ric Flair, lost to Mega Powers
Great American Bash 1995 - not on card
Bash at the Beach 1995 - main event, loss to Hogan

What we can see from that is, rather than being "dominant from 1991 - 1993", he was barely used. When he did become a big deal, in 1993-4, he beat Sting, but also lost to him, lost to a number of big names, and had a lot of wins against The Big Bossman. Ooooh. In IC25's "dominant" 1991-1993 run, Vader featured on fewer WCW PPVs than Steve Austin.

As for Austin's loss to Vega, it is completely irrelevant for three reasons. 1) That was a four corners strap match - as was Vader's win over Sting, and the way Vader won would completely not help him here. 2) Austin said afterwards that he had lost on purpose to get rid of DiBiase 3) This was before Austin broke his neck and was still more of a technician than later in his career. As I said in my first post, technicians need separation, brawlers don't. Austin's prime was a totally different wrestler to before his Owen Hart match.

 

[ShawnDiscipleSmith]

Uncensored 1995 - main event, loses strap match vs Hogan

No disrespect intended, I like your debating style... Do you even remember this event?

Hulk Hogan (with The Renegade) defeated Vader (with Ric Flair) in a Leather Strap match (18:21)
Hogan's WCW World Heavyweight Championship was not on the line.
Before the show, Jimmy Hart had been kidnapped and tied up at an undisclosed location by Vader and Flair. During the match Hart escaped and joined Renegade at ringside.
Hogan was given the win when he dragged an interfering Ric Flair and touched all four turnbuckles (despite Flair not being the legal opponent in the match).

It made Botchamania.

Just saying, Hogan didn't beat Vader in the strap match. He attached Flair to the strap instead and beat him. Vader even runs back into the ring a second too late to attack Hogan after the decision, to keep him looking strong...

I gotta vote Vader here in case of a tie breaker. The point was made that Stone Cold's prime came undoubtedly after his neck was broken and repaired, and Vader in his prime, the stiff, tough, bully of a superheavyweight has the exact tools needed to take out Stone Cold in this one-off.

Offical vote in case of tiebreak: Vader

 

[Tastycles]

No disrespect intended, I like your debating style... Do you even remember this event?

Hulk Hogan (with The Renegade) defeated Vader (with Ric Flair) in a Leather Strap match (18:21)
Hogan's WCW World Heavyweight Championship was not on the line.
Before the show, Jimmy Hart had been kidnapped and tied up at an undisclosed location by Vader and Flair. During the match Hart escaped and joined Renegade at ringside.
Hogan was given the win when he dragged an interfering Ric Flair and touched all four turnbuckles (despite Flair not being the legal opponent in the match).

It made Botchamania.

He still won, perhaps I shouldn't have bolded it, but he still won.

The point was made that Stone Cold's prime came undoubtedly after his neck was broken and repaired, and Vader in his prime, the stiff, tough, bully of a superheavyweight has the exact tools needed to take out Stone Cold in this one-off.

Offical vote in case of tiebreak: Vader

This keeps coming up, but how many times ever did Austin lose a match because of his neck? He even fucking won the one he broke it in!

 

[IrishCanadian25]

People seem to think that voting for Austin based on his superior popularity is flawed. It isn't.

The purpose of the gimmick matches, in my mind, is to differentiate between close matches and to make the later rounds more interesting. Take Savage vs Warrior. In most contexts, Warrior would lose, but in the match they have, he's winning. Take Angle vs Sting. That one could have gone either way, but the last time I checked, Sting was dominating.

Vader vs Stone Cold, the stipulation is irrelevant because Steve Austin is such the superior wrestler to Vader that it beggars belief that intelligent wrestling posters think that Austin would ever lose this.

Vader was a journeyman. That is a fact. Austin has made more money for his company than any other wrestler in history, thanks to ratings, PPVs and merchandise. That is a fact.

There is not a booker in the world that would kick Austin out now, for Vader to go on and face Bruno Sammartino, who I don't doubt has absolutely no chance in the next round despite having been a world champion for 10 years. What use is that when you're as popular as Prince Albert in Japan?

Vader's unprofessional approach to professional wrestling never washed well with bookers, which is why he was never anywhere for very long. In his brief time in WCW, he ruptured Sting's spleen, broke a jobber's back, and both broke Foley's nose and tore his ear off. Well done. The goal in professional wrestling is to have fake fights that people want to see, Vader has consistently achieved neither of those points.

I'm absolutely tired of people bringing up Vader's stint with WCW as if it was him dominating from 1991-1993. At first, they barely used him on PPV because he wasn't a draw. He signed with them before the Great American Bash in 1990, and his debut consisted of beating Tom Zenk. HERE COMES THE MONEY.

His PPV record from then on was as follows:

Halloween Havoc 1990 - not on the card
Starrcade 1990 - not on the card
WrestleWar 1991 - 7th match of ten, 6 minutes, double DQ vs Stan Hansen
WCW/New Japan Supershow I - The man who is "huge in Japan" gets a dark tag team match victory
SuperBrawl I - not on the card
Great American Bash 1991 - not on the card
Halloween Havoc 1991 - 1st match on the card, on losing side of 8-man tag Chamber of Horrors, 12 minutes, late replacement for Barry Windham.
Starrcade 1991 - This was the battle bowl show, he was in it, and lasted a long time in the first ring. Not so long in the second ring.
WCW/New Japan Supershow II - 4th match out of 7, 5 minutes, double DQ vs El Gigante
SuperBrawl II - not on the card
WrestleWar 1992 - not on the card
Beach Blast 1992 - not on the card
The Great American Bash 1992 - Beats Sting to win WCW Championship, but the main event is for the NWA Tag Team Championships
Halloween Havoc 1992 - 3rd match of 7, win vs Nikita Koloff, 11 minutes
Starrcade 1992 - another battle bowl, makes it to the final, doesn't feature in the result
WCW/New Japan SuperShow III - not on the card
SuperBrawl III - his first PPV main event, strap match vs Sting.
Slamboree 1993 - main event, DQ loss vs. Davey Boy Smith for WCW title
Beach Blast 1993 - main event tag team w/ Sid Vicious, loss to Davey Boy and Sting
Fall Brawl 1993 - main event, War games 4 vs 4, loses to a team featuring The Shockmaster
Halloween Havoc 1993 - main event, wins Texas Death match vs Cactus Jack
Battlebowl - wins main event
Starrcade 1993 - main event, loses to Ric Flair
SuperBrawl IV - main event, loses to Ric Flair
Spring Stampede 1994 - 8th match of 9, 9 minutes, beats The Boss
Slamboree 1994 - main event, loses to Sting
Bash at the Beach 1994 - 2nd match of 6, 8 minutes, DQ win vs The Guardian Angel
Fall Brawl 1994 - 8th match of 9, 30 minutes, beats Sting and The Guardian Angel in a triangle match
Halloween Havoc 1994 - 6th match of 8, 8 minutes, beats The Guardian Angel
Starrcade 1994 - curtain jerker, 12 minuted, wins US title off Jim Duggan
SuperBrawl V - main event, DQ loss to Hulk Hogan
Uncensored 1995 - main event, loses strap match vs Hogan
Slamboree 1995 - main event, tag match w/ Ric Flair, lost to Mega Powers
Great American Bash 1995 - not on card
Bash at the Beach 1995 - main event, loss to Hogan

.

Just a quick note on the 1991-1992 "not on card" info, which, by the way, is excellent research and clearly shows the level of effort we are used to from Tastycles. While I despise his anti-Vader vitriol, I respect his efforts, techniques, and intelligence.

Vader was not full time with WCW in the early early 90's (following his demolition of Zenk) as he was still wrestling in Japan, and in many cases, still defending a World Title over there. Again, Austin never had that problem, because Austin wasn't a star anywhere besides North America unless he was cheered on a WWE tour.

You can't legitimately expect Vader to wrestle the schedule he did in Japan as their world champion AND be on every card or factor in every title match for the 2nd largest promotion in the US. You just can't.

 

[Tastycles]

Vader was not full time with WCW in the early early 90's (following his demolition of Zenk) as he was still wrestling in Japan, and in many cases, still defending a World Title over there. Again, Austin never had that problem, because Austin wasn't a star anywhere besides North America unless he was cheered on a WWE tour.

What an utterly bizarre point of view. Here is a complete list of countries where WWE was not 100% definitely the most popular wrestling company during Austin's prime:

Mexico
Japan

Why on Earth would he go and wrestle for 1PW in Guildford Lesiure Centre, when he could wrestle at London Arena with the WWE? Or the equivalent for the other 100+ countries he wrestled in.

You can't legitimately expect Vader to wrestle the schedule he did in Japan as their world champion AND be on every card or factor in every title match for the 2nd largest promotion in the US. You just can't.

And I don't expect him to. It's not an argument of Vader wasn't there, he must be shit, its an argument of he wasn't there, how could he be dominant. If you came in here and said Austin was barely on a WWF card in 2000, that would be true and it would have an equally valid reason. The difference is I'm not saying that Stone Cold was dominant in WWF in 2000, the Vader supporters are saying he was in WCW in 1991-92, which is blatantly not the case.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I pretty much ignored this thread seeing it as a waste of time. Skipping Raw1000 and the 20 year Raw anniversary has really had a negative effect on Austin's career over the past year.

Here is what happens:

Austin is booked to win here. He is a much bigger star regardless of the location. The match goes as expected, a lot of back and forth, Vader reaches a point where he begins to make the fans uncomfortable by going at Austin's neck with the collar, it seems the stipulation is too much for Austin to handle, Austin tries to attack the ropes to hit a Lou Thez press but Vader's weight is too much, more of a beatdown on Austin by Vader until he gets a little cocky. Austin starts hitting punches, pushes up Vader's head, kicks Vader in his big gut and "Stunner! Stunner! Stunner!". Vader in his carelessness oversells snapping Austin's injured neck and knocking him unconcious. Shark Boy gets on the phone to offer to finish the match but the promoter signals to the referee that Vader should pick up the win so he is guaranteed another match next round.

Owen Hart and sloppy wrestling wins. Frankie Stechino celebrates with his dad.