Religion, No Politics. Half the Things We Never Talk About.

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

As the old saying goes, the two things you never talk about around the dinner table are religion and politics. I'm throwing politics out the window here, because I'm just worn out. It's an election season, and everyone seems to get really opinionated around this time; it's not something I want to get into.

However, I feel like you can't really know somebody until you discover what they have faith in. Be it a Judaic God, the Holy Roman Empire, some gold tablets in up-state New York, or a night with a fresh roll and an 1/5 of Jack. Where do our morals come from? Is it an ancient stone tablet brought down from a mountain in the Middle East, or are they inherent in our understanding, evolving with our concept of social norm?

I know this isn't going to attract many people, because many just don't, and won't talk about it. It's not easy to put your own faith under a microscope, let alone throw in the hands of people you barely know and hope you come out the other side intact. I'm just really curious as to what some of you believe. What are you religions? Why do you believe them what you believe? Is there any chance - and there always is, you just need to be able to admit it - that what we believe could be wrong?

I don't want to share too much about myself, because I'm hoping it will come out with discussion, but I'll put the necessary junk out there.

My uncle is an Assemblies of God pastor, as is his brother and several other members of my distant family. I was born into a family that goes to church every Sunday, believes in God, and attempt to live a "morally superior and upright" lifestyle. A lot of that changed as we all got older; my parents stopped going to church when my younger brothers were born, because it got more difficult to get four boys ready in the morning. That and there was some inappropriate stuff going on that I'm not comfortable sharing. Suffice it to say it was an emotional strain on my parents, and one that I believe has caused them to still not return to church to this day.

I got older and started to go to and AoG church with my grandparents. I went to the youth groups, went on all the retreats, and even played in the worship band. Of course, I was still having sex and partying several nights of week, but that's how the dual-life of most high school Christians goes. After I realized I didn't like the Pentacostal realm of Christianity, and had some issues with their theology, I started going to a Free Methodist church and helping out as a leader in their (much smaller) youth group. After I graduated high school I worked part-time in a few churches, doing a lot of work for a lot of different people. I just wanted to be active, and I wanted to help teenagers through what can be a really difficult time in life.

After floundering for a few years, I went to a private Free Methodist college in central Michigan for 3 semesters. I paid a shit ton of money to go into ministry, and then I dropped out. At that point it wasn't because of doubt, it was simply money and a desire to explore other options. It was during this period that I started writing every single day. I soon realized that's what I wanted to do, and I'm still writing 4-5 hours every single day. I don't go to church, and I have no desire to. In the last year I've really taken a hard look and asked myself this fundemental question:

Do I really believe in God, or did I just assume I did because it was how I was raised?

I think it's extremely important to ask yourself if you truly believe in whatever you believe, and then ask another question: Why?

I'm not near bold enough to come and say that I'm an agnostic at that point, but that's what I find myself identifying as more often than not. I think I have a lot of emotion tied to "God" and Christianity, but "in my heart" I don't truly believe in God. And even if I did, even if I truly believed that the Christian God was real, I have so many issues with modern theology it's not even funny. Today's Christians upset me more than anything. Nobody knows why the believe what they believe, or knows the history behind any of their dogma or Church doctrine. They'll say things like "this is the real science behind my faith" to try and sound smart about it - and they really do think they are - but there's 10 ways to come back and say "real science disproved this 100 years ago", or "that passage in English has been poorly translated, here's what you really SHOULD believe..." You do a couple years of theology course work, and it'll blow your mind how ignorant the church-going population is today. What's worse is that pastors know it, and continue spreading the dogma of their particular brand of ignorance.

Anyways, I didn't want to get too far into it. I'm just hoping for some good discussion, and to hopefully get to know some of you with the guts to talk on a fairly taboo subject. I'll try to be upfront and honest and admit when I don't know something, and all I ask is you do the same.

 

[Tastycles]

I'm not sure if I have stated my religious position here before or not.

I don't consider myself an atheist or religious, it's just not something I ever think about, I don't care if there's a God or not. That being said, if everyone lived their life according to the word of Jesus, the world would be a nicer place. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians seem to have forgotten a lot of this message in favour of over zealously following the Old Testament.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

I'm not sure if I have stated my religious position here before or not.

I don't consider myself an atheist or religious, it's just not something I ever think about, I don't care if there's a God or not. That being said, if everyone lived their life according to the word of Jesus, the world would be a nicer place. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians seem to have forgotten a lot of this message in favour of over zealously following the Old Testament.

I consider myself agnostic, but aside from that this is spot on how I feel

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

I'm Jewish but I've gone far beyond the dogma of it that I can call myself a Thiest. I believe in one god but I have communicated with other gods of different pantheons.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

The problem arises when "the teachings of Jesus" have been stretched to fit whatever the Church things that means. What "Jesus" actually said was pretty limited. The Sermon on the Mount continues to be one of the best outlines for moral living available in my opinion. Matthew gives the greatest account of it, however there's an interest inaccuracy in modern translations that shows the groups acquisition of Matthew far after the famed sermon took place. Any good scholar of Jewish preaching method would know that's not a deal-breaker, but it is interesting.

So I guess I agree with you in a sense, but I can't imagine not caring at all about the existence of God. Especially a god that pits your soul either in eternal happiness or eternal suffering. Then again, both the modern understanding of "heaven" and "hell" are hilariously misconstrued. Both are almost completely fabricated in the last 200 years of western dogma. So really, I guess it doesn't matter. If there was a god, Christians today would probably be just as surprised as atheists by what they found...

I'm not sure if I think simply "not caring" is a healthy way to approach life. But I mean, whatever. It's yours to live and think however you want to live and think. I just think cosmic questions about your fate, or lack thereof, are at least worth thinking about.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

I believe in one god but I have communicated with other gods of different pantheons.

I'm gonna ask this as tactfully as I possibly can...but what in the modern fallacy of hell does that mean?

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

I'm gonna ask this as tactfully as I possibly can...but what in the modern fallacy of hell does that mean?

All is not what they seem my friend. You can do so much more than what the church can tell you. Meditate and you can find out for yourself.

 

[Барбоса]

the Holy Roman Empire

There are people that don't believe in the Holy Roman Empire?

 

[jmt225]

I was raised to be a Christian, and while my faith in God isn't as strong as it was when I was a kid/teenager, I'm still a firm believer in God and in Jesus and try to live my life with Christian moral values.

 

[JGlass]

Is it just me, or is half the shit Mike Killam is saying just opinion masquerading as fact?

But to answer one of your questions, I don't think our morals come from religion per se, since there have been many religions throughout time that have basically pushed the same laws and moral system. I think our morals came from early philosophical thought (before they knew that they were philosophizing), but they were made more understandable by putting them in a religious context.

 

[Ty Burna]

I don't really have a firm religious belief, at least not your typical "I'm this religion only" type of response because I follow a few different ones.

I follow some teachings of Buddhism as well as the core of the teachings of Jesus, but I really follow Taoism the most. I believe their is a higher power, but I'm more interested in the philosophy side of religious teachings rather then what's going to happen to me when I die. I try to live by the philosophy of the teachings and other religious texts I read but I'm highly disinterested in sparking up a conversation about what afterlife is correct or whatever. I believe in Karma, I also believe in the Tao and the need to have balance in life, and of course what Jesus taught.

 

[Барбоса]

I believe in nothing.

Now, bring give me money or I will cut off your johnson.

 

[Gelgarin]

I don't follow anything. I abide by quite a lot of the teaching of quite a lot of religions, but only because they happen to make sense. I don't try to be nice to people because Jesus told me to, I try to be nice to people because it makes sense in my head as a way to act. I find any other mode of thought a little bit scary.

As for the whole 'is there a God' question; I almost never think about it. If pushed I'd concede that I highly doubt it, at least in the context that most people typically imagine a supreme being. To be frank though, I'm not convinced that it matters one way or another.

 

[Remy LaCroix]

I live by common sense and decency. I read the Satanic Bible years ago and took a few pages out of it, and it kinda snowballed from there. If anything I'm a pseudo-pagan (mostly for the role-play) pantheist. I also believe we're glorified, biological machines with "free will."

I don't live by the word of a certain tyrannical king. He can go fuck himself.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

Is it just me, or is half the shit Mike Killam is saying just opinion masquerading as fact?

I'm not arrogant enough to consider my own opinions as fact. Merely opinions, or beliefs, if you will. They are things I believe, and that I am passionate about. If you don't like them, or disagree, that's wonderful for you but simply saying so isn't going to change the way I feel or think. I apologize if you feel I'm being ignorant or spouting off bullshit for attention or something. I welcome being proven wrong, or discussing just about anything though.

I believe in Karma, I also believe in the Tao and the need to have balance in life, and of course what Jesus taught.

I don't know how much stock I put into the spiritual aspect of karma, per say. I do believe with its general concept, which in the simplest terms means to follow the "golden rule", "pay it forward", and other over-used Hallmark statements. It seems a decent idea that if you're general a good person, people will be good to you. And if you're a total ass, people will treat you poorly. But I don't hold to that in a strict, or spiritual manner because the world is chaotic at heart. Sometimes bad things happen to good people; I don't think it's because their karma was "out of sync" or they're being paid back for some cosmic evil they committed.

 

[Loveless]

My attitudes and beliefs revolve around Darwinism, Buddhism, Nietzschean Nihilism and Absurdism (Camus). Including nihilism in that group may seem somewhat contradictory but it only extends to that kind of external search for meaning that doesn't exist.
I believe in being independent in both your thoughts & actions, taking responsibility for both and not hiding behind fear or denial. That is why I find organised religion contemptible, it teaches people to follow and not to question. I have always felt that it's about time the human race stops behaving like eternal children, throws off the shackles of this "absent father" and take responsibility for their lives.

 

[shattered dreams]

My religious views are probably closest to Atheist but I am not one to label such things. I do find Absurdism to be a good representation of my philosophical take on the world though.

 

[JGlass]

I believe in nothing.

Now, bring give me money or I will cut off your johnson.

Dude, I was THIS close to making the exact same reference!

You can't see my hands, but they're very close together.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

Dude, I was THIS close to making the exact same reference!

You can't see my hands, but they're very close together.

Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.

 

[Danger Burger]

I've put some chunks in spoiler tags to keep the amount to read only there for those who wish to read it.

I was raised Roman Catholic, and got to a point when I was the only member of my family still actively practicing (attending mass).

Myself:

Spoiler

Over the years the belief has loosened to a degree, influenced by some friends, one being a Wiccan, one a Muslim and the other the son of TWO Church of Ireland ministers. The outsider perspective helped, as having gone to a Catholic school in a Catholic community, i was just kind of going along for the ride. When finally given an opportunity forhonest religious discussion, I found I didnt neccesarily belive everything of the Roman Catholic Dogma.

By now i have simply an amalgam of things gathered, and guided by common sense.

For me, and maybe others, my moral compass is not actually reflected too strongly in my followed religion.

Morals:

Spoiler

Initially lead to consider that those who didn't accept Jesus into their lives would be damned to an eternity of hell, i can now see that would make absolutely no sense, not for an all knowing and all powerful being (unless he's a prick). There are so many people in tha world born into a family, a country, or a situation where such a thing would be impossible, and it wouldnt make much sense to me for those people to be punished for something entirely out of their own control. I think it may have been a baptist belief, but an idea that a person would be judged on choices made in unavoidable situations, rather than a universal right and wrong would make most sense.

To quote the big bang theory "I don't object to the concept of a deity, but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance". The fact of the matter is that I cant imagine any grand creator being overly concerned with what a person chooses to believe, so long as they act out of a good intention. Most people have a moral compass of some sorts, and following that to the best of their ability should be the goal. Good V Bad is an unhealthy idea, as it all seems a grey area to me, and no-one has the complete perspective outside of their own to judge another.

Punishment?:

Spoiler

One further idea that seemed to resonate with mine was the God of George MacDonald's beliefs (fantasy writer, one of the inspirations for the lord of the rings supposedly). His notion was that hell would not be an eternal punishment, but rather a means of rehabilitaion or to amend. Quotes often help as I'm not great at getting to the point (as you can see). "The wrath will consume what they call themselves; so that the selves God made shall appear.". To me this makes sense, and I cannot truly commit to that which makes no sense to me. Acceptance and Belief are not the same in my book.

Myself:

Spoiler

I stopped attending mass over the last year or two, especially after the recent change to the wording of the prayers, For me that stood out as proof of the churches misguided notions. The words are not important in prayer, as far as i'm concerned, rather the sentiment behind it. We used to say "peace be with you", "and also with you". They done some reinterpretation and came back with a more accurate "and with your soul" response... Its just a greeting, for Christ's sake! Seeing a roo full of people reading of sheets to get the words right (myself included) made me realise that I wasnt thinking, and therefore not praying. So i took myself home, sat down and thought, and found it much more fulfilling.

Some other things I find laughable are:

Spoiler

The ideas that we need religion for morals. In this day and age, such a thing is unnecesary. I think that religion spawned from a need to hold society together more tightly. Before a well enough run system of Law was established to discourage murder etc, I think religion and the fear caused by hell were a great deterrent. God Fearing is a pretty sound idea when you dont have any other means. I've read the bible and didnt learn much new that I couldnt have discarded as gibberish. I think its pretty easy to see comments that regard laying with another man or a woman on her period as pretty basic Biology that maybe werent known to people two thousand years ago. How do you get a woman pregnant? Well before sleeping with her, look for blood, or a penis... Simples.

The ten commandments seem pretty straight forward for settling a group too. Stealing, murder, disrespect for elders, they all weaken the community. As does a difference in religion, or any of the others.

The satanic Bible is a pretty good read too, new age morals of a sort, and some that it would be very wise to live by. It also has bugger all mention of satan, for those misinformed. To me it seems like a capitalist set of morals, and pretty self serving. Not what i'd use as a guide, though if I analysed my every move, I wouldnt be surprised to see how much closer to it I would be than to whatever I'd been told that week at mass.

Spoiler

Another thing I had to laugh at was when talking with some of my atheist friends (not a bash at all) especially those who used to be practising Catholics. They ask me, given all the proof out there regarding say the big bang or evolution (which I dont deny in any way, seems legit!), how I can still believe in a Creator figure, or a higher power. The trouble being that Belief isnt a choice for me. Its a simple fact in my heart or wherever. Theres no proof, its simple there. I could try think on it (I have) and try convince myself theres nothing (I have) and try tell my friends that it was all a load of nonsense, but there is something in me that stops the process. Call it faith or whatever, but for me, it doesnt come down to a choice, or an acceptance of another truth. To me it all fits.

As Einstien more than likely did not say "the more I study science, the more I believe in God".

Myself:

Spoiler

So right now, my stance (due to an inability to picture a deity without a wispy beard) I consider myself a Christian, no longer a Catholic or anything more narrowed down. What i believe is 90% formed of Christian foundation so I'll stick with that. I do not attend mass at the moment, nor am I sure what religious service I would attend if a chose to return, be it a catholic service or protestant. I'm leaning towards the latter following conversations with my friends dad (the minister) and learning that he has translated a Latin text of the bible himself and uses his own interpretation in his preachings, though through familiarity and wussness, it is more likely the first.

In general I have to close saying that to follow anything set in stone too blindly without questioning is both dangerous and more than likely completely unfulfilling. Though it will probably leave your post here at a length where people will actually read it. If you made it to the end of this badly constructed post, thank you for reading!

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea we don't discuss religion enough on this forum.

 

[Coco]

Becca's gonna post in this thread, right?

 

[Барбоса]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea we don't discuss religion enough on this forum.

Yeah, and I can prove that the Holy Roman Empire should be believed in

 

[smizzy]

Your beliefs don't define you, rather it's your actions. I know atheists who are much better people than certain Christians. But, I am Christian. I have more reasons to believe than not to, regardless of how much of a fairy tale some believe it to be.

I appreciate all people and respect their beliefs though.

 

[AndThat'sTheBottomLine]

I am a born and raised baptist. Sometime during my teen years, we stopped going and I lost interest. I still believed in God, I'd seen enough evidence of that. Then I met my fiance about 2 and a half years ago and she slowly got me interested again. I still don't go to church every Sunday because I work at Walmart and I very rarely have Sundays off but I'm a bit more active in my faith than I have been in a long time. I believe what I do because it feels right. It outlines the right way to live at least from my point of view.