Had Jeff Hardy not decided to leave, Punk would have never been champion and got that extra push. And it's sad that in order for WWE to start pushing guys, they have to have their back against the wall. That is sad.
Wait a minute... so you're saying the only reason why Punk got the title recently and because one of the best heel champions of 2009 was because Hardy stepped aside? So it had nothing to do with their chemistry in the ring, their perfectly scripted feud reasoning, conflicting on-screen personalities, or just the fact that the WWE was pushing new stars? Oh, that's right. Someone always has to be injured before someone else gets pushed... I see now.
It antagonizes the babyface but it doesn't make the antagonists an actual threat.
Well, you're wrong. When it leaves them lying half-dead in the middle of a ring or carried out in a strecher, I think that makes them a threat. But I can't tell you how to view the product.
And your precious TNA uses the same exact formula. Oh wait, it must be right now, since TNA uses it.
I wouldn't have a problem with the match order unless it made sense.
There was absolutely no reason for DX to close the show whatsoever. It's basically saying that a DX win is more important than the world title and world title match exchanges. DX/Legacy was not a bigger and more hyped feud than Orton/Cena or Taker/Punk. If anything DX, could've opened the show and had Orton/Cena close the show with Orton and Cena staring at each other like how they did at the end of their match. All HHH did was go last because he wanted to be the center of attention for the umpteenth time.
I never said DX/Legacy was a bigger feud. I said it was hyped just as much as the other feuds. You didn't notice it because there were no titles involved. But it's a perfect example of how titles don't equal pushes or a wrestler's notoriety. It doesn't matter if you believe differently, agree, or disagree. Facts are undisputable.
And do you really think HHH made the call to win that HIAC match? In the WWE, the inmates don't run the asylum. TNA contracted wrestlers have some form of creative control in their contracts. So all of your HHH bashing falls on deaf ears because he's just following his leader.
Besides, it made sense for DX to win the match. Happy endings sell more tickets. And it's mere coincidence that this particular show resulted in veterans winning their respective main event matches. Remember, at Breaking Point, Legacy beat DX, Cena beat Orton, and CM Punk beat the Undertaker. The WWE is just making the feuds into back and forth struggles between its competitors with no favorability towards its veterans. As a result, it's making the younger talent look like a formidable contender against the stronger, more experienced, and more well-known veterans and giving the new stars a rub.
Or maybe your taste is just shit.
That's only because I just ate Taco Bell. Yuck...
Lol at saying that they were carried on a stretcher while you're trying to claim them as some type of threat in the same breathe.
And a month prior at Breaking Point, HBK was being carried out in a stretcher. What's your point? Mine's clear. Legacy was clearly elevated in both their losses and wins.
i never said that but that is the approach that TNA haters like you have towards their product with veterans going over lesser established talent from time to time. It's guys like you for the past year that claim that TNA is burying their young talent. So yes, I'm going to use that same approach in this argument as well.
First of all, I am FAR from hating TNA. They disappoint me. They have all of this talent but horrible writers and execution.
Second, that is exactly what you were saying. Your only argument in regards to WWE talent being buried is because they
lose matches. You said it repeatedly and everyone read it.
I never said there was anything wrong with either party winning or losing a match, as long as it benefited both of them in the end. Obviously, a loss seems to make a superstar lose a bit of stock. However, if the matches are well-advertised, well-executed, and are followed up in a manner that allows all competitors to be viewed as being strong, formidable opponents, everyone wins in the end and new talent is successfully pushed and elevated. But, these factors need to be in place, first.
The WWE has seesaw battles and constant title changes in order to keep all of their superstars (both veterans and new stars) on an even playing field. No one looks stronger than the other. But then again, no one looks weaker, either. TNA has their veterans hold their championships for obscene amounts of time who win the majority of their matches against the new blood. Sure, there are a few good Samoa Joe and AJ Styles title reigns thrown in here and there, but for the majority of the past 3 years, the TNA veterans have held onto all major championship title belts. In the WWE, th new talent has the majority. Orton, Morrison, CM Punk, Edge, Cena, Jeff Hardy, Kofi Kingston, Miz and Morrison, the Colons, MVP, and many others had the titles for the majority of the time over men that you put down like HHH, HBK, and Undertaker.
So EY, Hernandez, and AJ aren't in better positions? Hell, even in terms of character traits, guys like Joe and Rhino are in better positions.
I'll repeat it all again... Joe is currently lost in the Main Event Mafia shuffle when he was in a MUCH better position in the company last year (therefore, his stock has gone down), Eric Young has been
slightly elevated (but only as a mouthpiece since he hasn't wrestled anyone in any matches of importance yet), and Hernandez was thrown into a title match at the last minute on a Pay Per View when he didn't even belong there in the first place.
Normally, when someone gets thrown into a title match of those kinds of proportions they wind up coming out on top (or at least coming out with a decent feud). Hernandez's cash-in of the FoF case was
wasted on AJ Styles' title win since AJ could've done it on his own
without Hernandez even being involved. The storyline behind the PPV match was to build up Angle vs. Morgan and AJ vs. Sting. Where did Hernandez fit in there? He was like mag wheels on a dump truck in that match... he was WASTED. This is exactly what I'm talking about. TNA is disappointing.
Hernandez got a nice rub from Sting in his first FOF match. He in turn got a clean victory over Samoa Joe on the 200th Impact Episode when he returned from injury. If you compare where Hernandez was last year in which he was nothing more than the big guy in LAX, then yes it's a huge jump to see him getting mic time and be uppermidcard.
You're right about how he earned his title shot. But then what? He got wasted in that championship match last month, and you have to agree. Let's face it, he could have (and should have) held on to that case until he could clearly start a feud with one of the other four members. Now the case is gone and so is his push/elevation.
And did you just say Hernandez was buried because he didn't win a match?
No, I said he was buried because he was thrown into that match for no reason with no buildup and obviously no outcome and growth from it. If he wasn't in that match no one would have noticed. But TNA knew they fucked up and had no PPV match for him so they threw him in the mix. If I were Hernandez, I'd be one pissed off Mexican because Russo threw away his best chance at a world title push. People were
almost starting to believe that he was ME material. Now he's back to being a midcarder. It's a shame, really.
AJ has always been that GUY in TNA but everyone knows he stepped down for quite a bit. If you compare where he was last year to this year, it's a huge significance. Last year, he was straggling from midcard-uppermidcard in feuds with Kurt Angle over Karen and feuding with Frank Trigg. This year, he's world champ. That's a WORLD of difference.
He's on a roller coaster. You can't push, de-push, and then RE-push a guy and actually think for one second that it elevates their character. AJ Styles is a main-eventer nomatter where he's thrown. He's paid his dues and earned his spot. Just how when Chris Jericho went from being world champion last year to tag team champion this year, he's still viewed as a main eventer. AJ is no different. He's talented, young, and already pushed to the moon. There is no need to include him in this anymore. We've already established that he's the only exception to the rule.
Exactly EY was a joke a year ago who was scared of his own pyro. Now he's a leader of a heel stable looking for dominance. That is a huge upgrade. As a character, he's been developed greatly. All TNA has to do now is put him over as an inring worker and he'll be sold well.
Exactly. I agree with this completely. But all he is right now is a mouthpiece. Honestly, you cannot count him in our debate yet. Maybe in 3-6 months (if TNA doesn't disappoint
again), but not yet.
So yes, in all 4 guys have been elevated hugely and can easily transition to uppercard/main event which is more than can be said for the "elevated" WWE talent.
No they haven't.
So what, he's still a former world champion. 2 days or not. And he's no more shit than Randy Orton.
You're right... Rhino failed in three organizations (ECW, WWE, TNA) while Randy Orton failed in how many?? Oh, that's right. He's the top heel in the WWE.
Listen, if you think Randy is shit then I can't dispute that. Opinions are like ass holes... everyone's got one. But you can't deny that he's been the most dominating force on WWE television for the past two years. The biggest professional wrestling organization
in the world put all of their hopes and dreams on the back of a "shit" wrestler for two years, right? Either you or them are wrong. For some reason, I don't think it's them...
Again, so what. A former world champion is a former world champion
Yup, you're right. What was I thinking?? ALL HAIL DAVID ARQUETTE!!
No one would take him seriously? Umm, speak for yourself.
I don't need to speak for anyone else. Three other posters have agreed with my views on this since I started writing this reply. Majority rules on this one.
Lol, I can say the same thing about Kane. Wasn't Kane a world champion for 1 day? Yet until this day WWE can bring him to main event and uppermidcard when they please based on that 1 accomplishment he had 12 years ago. U always need a supporting cast and TNA has that. Maybe you're the one whose confused as to how things work pal.
Nah... Kane's role as champion was pure shit. I'll never argue that. Exactly the reason why Rhino's was shit. The difference is that Kane is almost 7 foot tall, over 300lbs, his character is intimidating, his career is based on being the "brother of the Undertaker", and when he feuds with someone he looks like a legitimate threat. I'm sorry, but Rhino possesses none of those qualities. He's an "all bark and no bite" failure who's prime passed him up a LONG time ago.
But, either way, I applaud you for a good comparison. If it were up to me, I'd get rid of both of them. They're both pure shit. Now, if you take Kane out of the WWE equation, everything stays the same. But, if we take Rhino out of your TNA equation, your all-star roster just got kicked in the nuts.
Now, saying that the WWE doesn't have a supporting cast is just you talking about nothing to make your points seem like they're valid. You honestly can't compare guys like Hernandez to guys like John Morrison. It's a runaway victory for WWE.
No, 4 elevated guys and 3 guys on lay-away. That is very good, whereas the WWE, the company with over 6 hrs of tv programming and 2 world titles has only elevated 1 guy this whole year who has been booked as a joke and a fluke since his first world title win as a face and a tag team division made of make-shift teams. Congrats WWE. Keep pushing your posterboys for steroids and your old men over the young talent that u so desperately claim you're having a hard time developing.
There are just TOO many ways that I can tear up this paragraph. Where do I begin...
First of all, I don't need to list the WWE's elevated talent for you
again, do I? We're never going to agree on them, anyway. I say your TNA guys weren't elevated worth a damn, and you say the same thing about the WWE's. We're at a stalemate. I get it.
As for "posterboys for steroids", what do you call Steiner? Or Eric Young (with his back covered in acne)? Or Kurt Angle, the king of the steroid scandal? The guy was just arrested for having that shit in his car.
Oh really, tell that to your WWE mark friends who invade TNA conversations with "_____ and ____ needs to hang it up. ______ is past his prime. ____ is washed up. If you did that, we wouldn't be in this convo now, would we?
I never said TNA's guys were washed up. I only said they won't step aside. Believe it or not, I'm a big fan of 3D, Nash, Booker, Angle, etc. But there comes a time when you have to share your spotlight to make way for the future. Being a veteran in a promotion full of untapped talent and holding the world title for the past two years (with the exception of 182 days) is not the way to do that.
None of those guys have broke the ceiling to main event status or even uppercard with the exception of CM PUNK. EPIC FAIL!
Once again, we've already gone over this a billion times. We agree to disagree.
Umm, you and your WWE marks made that claim first. Not me.
Wait a minute, WHAT?!? The basis of your entire argument was that guys that were 40 years old (or approaching 40, as you so eloquently changed your tune halfway through) were considered "old farts"! All I did was use your theory against you, considering that your TNA promotion has more "old farts" in it that won't step aside. Your arguments are ridiculously scatterbrained and have more holes than swiss cheese. Just admit that you're wrong about this.
Yeah because Rey Mysterio is the only worker in WWE to wrestle 300 days a year.
TRY AGAIN!
All WWE superstars work over 300 days a year and they stay healthy. Which is why they're not
all injury prone, like you stated. Now you're saying things that make no sense. I really don't understand you're little "comeback" statement here...
No idiot, in the WWE world, they're having problems breaking in new stars and main event guys. Pushing guys to midcard and a little above midcard isn't solving their problem. TNA has their future main event guys covered as well as their midcard. WWE only has pushed Punk while the rest remain in midcard heaven.
TNA's "future main eventers" are all stagnant. The WWE's are constantly moving up, currently winning major singles titles, and are all involved in meaningfull feuds without taking a ride on an 'elevation roller-coaster'. TNA's starts are pushed and de-pushed... pushed and de-pushed. That's why no one thinks they deserve anything that's given to them.
For example, Daniels was supposed to be the hottest thing since sliced bread when he came back after that wonderful "Curry Man" stint. Where is he now? Feuding with Suicide, the MCMG, Lethal Consequences, and other losers?
I call them guys who have put over people in TNA cleanly, guys who are willing to help, and pass the torch. That is more than I can say about HHH or any of the other washups in WWE.
HHH held the title for 70 days in 2009. Younger main event stars have held it for the remainder of the year thus far.
Angle, Foley, and Sting have held the belt for a total of 263 days this year. The only newer TNA talent that has held the title was AJ Styles... for 18 days so far.
Gee, you're right.
And I pay attention to TNA but I pay attention to your tv show as well. A 44 year old man with a hip replacement is your world champion while your tag team champs in Big Show & Jericho are pushing 40. Oooh that's a big youth movement right there, huh?
And prior to 18 days ago, your champion was 40 year old with a 'broken fricken neck.' And your tag champions have a combined age of 91 years old (44 and 47). What's your point?
I guess you're right if you consider dominant as in running from a face every chance you get and getting beat up in a park lot all throughout an arena by a retired 60 year old man.
Aren't your youngsters still beating up on Hector Guerrero backstage?
Didn't you just sit here and claim Hernandez was buried for losing a match? Which way are we going to have it? Oh yeah, it's a double standard when it comes to you, right?
I said Hernandez was buried in the shuffle. That means he was thrown into a match in a situation that had no meaning or positive results but was detrimental towards his career. No double-standard here. Just really bad booking.
Kurt Angle put over Samoa Joe and AJ Styles and didn't go back and get clean victories over them within a month or 2 months like a certain King of Kings in WWE would do. So EPIC FAIL
Nah... Angle just stayed the dominating throne-hogging champion for the majority of 2007 and part of 2009. He only stepped aside once. HHH did it multiple times.
So you're basically admitting that WWE pushes shit wrestlers which makes them a shit product?
I'm saying that WWE doesn't ALWAYS make the best decisions. They gave Khali a shot and he failed. At least Undertaker stepped aside for him.
He's not there anymore so until he comes back, he's out of the equation completely. It's like talking about RVD. It's no point. The WWE can't use him from home.
Actually, it just makes your points stronger if we take them out. But it doesn't change the fact that those points are 100% truth.
The difference is that Hernandez is new when it comes to establishing himself as a competitor so it makes him young unlike Edge who is constantly pushed with ridiculous number of meaningless world title runs and Batista who is injury prone and wants to retire but is forced by Vince to stay due to his inability to create new stars that are worth a damn.
That's like trying to say that 1000lbs of bricks weighs more than 1000lbs of feathers. Your argument is just smoke and mirrors. You're wrong. Get over it.
I'm following the same format that you and your WWE universe who hate TNA follow. Do people like you and your section not call Team 3D washed up and past their prime and consider them veterans when there around the same ages as guys like Edge, Show, and Jericho. I'm giving you guys your own medicine.
Team 3D may be past their prime, but they're not washed up. Don't put words in my mouth because others might have said them. You're debating ME right now. Don't be afraid.
You made it 12 months, not me. I'm just following your lead.
This was actually funny because you're right. My bad.
That was in 2007, so that doesn't count, remember? Or with you it probably does, huh Double Standard Man?
No, you ass. I just got done saying that Nash was involved in that match at the end of 2008. It wasn't even a year ago.
And you're wrong. So far, the Legends title has only been defended by guys that were former world champions in any shape or form with the exception of Shane Sewell who competed for it. So the Legends title doesn't equate to TNA main even status. TRY AGAIN!
OMG, here you go again with the "EPIC FAIL" and "TRY AGAIN" garbage. I just said that AJ Styles just had the belt 7 months ago, you twit. If he's the world champion now, I think it's safe to say that the Legends title and its contenders deserve to be considered main event contenders.
Samoa Joe held the title for 6 months, which came up to 182 days. That is a long time. Hell that is longer than some of Punk's. Orton's, Hardy, and Edge's title reigns put together.
Add up Orton's and Edge's total number of days as champ. Specified reigns can't count, because the WWE isn't dumb enough to have its old-timers hog their world titles for 250 days out of the year. They spread the wealth. TNA doesn't. That's why there's no double-standard.
The same can be said about TNA also but would you use that approach with them? No. You know why? Because you're bias against them.
I already said it. I love TNA. I just think they're wasted. The booking is shit. Their veterans won't make room for the new blood. Their matches look like Ringling Brothers Circus instead of telling stories. Cody Deaner is an ass hole. I miss Angelina Love, but I wanna stick it to Lacey Von Erich. Should I go on? If I hated it so much, I wouldn't know so much about it.
