Ultimate Warrior

[mcfly2012]

The great thing about the network is nostalgia. Going back is great. But one question I have always wanted to ask is after Warrior won the wwf title at 6 over Hogan is why didn't he go to mega super stardom like Hogan was and stay champion and defend at consecutive Wrestlemanias. I mean Warrior was well groomed to go to that level or so I thought. Was it the ego of Hogan. Was it the fact Vince wanted Hogan to stay at number one. Or was it in fact as the DVD titled stated ..( self destruction).

Please explain if you know

 

[Hordriss]

The great thing about the network is nostalgia. Going back is great. But one question I have always wanted to ask is after Warrior won the wwf title at 6 over Hogan is why didn't he go to mega super stardom like Hogan was and stay champion and defend at consecutive Wrestlemanias. I mean Warrior was well groomed to go to that level or so I thought. Was it the ego of Hogan. Was it the fact Vince wanted Hogan to stay at number one. Or was it in fact as the DVD titled stated ..( self destruction).

Please explain if you know

Primarily because live attendances were down compared to the level they were with Hogan as champion, back in the days before TV ratings were king.

 

[The Fabulous Rougeau's]

I content the problem was that Hogan was still around and took what should have been Warrior's 1st feud post Mania against Earthquake. Earthquake was the only legitimate monster main event heel they had at the time and instead of following the formula that worked for them for over 5 years and feeding that heel to the champ, they instead gave that feud to Hogan. Even though Warrior was the champ he did not get the top program. That killed the momentum he had as it was apparent that Hogan was still the champ just without the title based on the program.

Warrior should have had the program Hogan had with Earthquake in the spring/summer/fall of 90. Then after he slays the beast, he moves on to Macho as he did back then only this time holding the title against Slaughter (Slaughter gets himself DQed and along with Macho continues to beat down Warrior until Hogan makes the save to set up his match with Slaughter as it was just minus the title). We get a Slaughter/Macho v Warrior/Hogan match at SNME and then after Warrior defeats Macho at Mania you begin year 2 of his title reign with him just as hot as he was after Mania VI.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Several reasons. Hogan was still top dog and was paired against an impressive new monster heel. Warrior was paired against Rick Rude in a feud rehash. He was limited, peaked as a character just as he won the world title and was cartoonish even for the era he was in.

 

[Vader]

If you look at the next Mania, Hogan was again back in the title chase facing Sgt. Slaughter and Warrior was much further down on the card (who knows why), in a retirement match against Savage.

I think if we look at from the perspective of 1990, we see that The Warrior wasn't quite as developed as Hogan even for 1990. I can't help but think that WCW somewhat saw how the Warrior didn't pan out the way WWF wanted him too and slowed Goldberg's squash matches down compared Warrior's.

Warrior was a rad character and I think he fit right in place even for the era. If you look at the Dungeon of Doom in the WCW and other gimmicks that were being ran even in the WWF in the mid 90s then I don't think that case can be made that wrestling had matured past him.

In the end, he couldn't simply be the heavyweight champion and squash any and everyone he wrestled against. Half of his allure was the way he blitzed through opponents. The other half was his character which is fine in the ring and wrestling TV, but the Warrior didn't translate as well to the outside audience the way Hogan could. I know Warrior appeared on Arsenio, but I don't think Warrior had the same external appeal to the mainstream American audience the way that Hogan did.

As stated earlier, Warrior didn't get the feuds he needed either. He actually had a good match with Savage the following WM and that could have easily been a title bout. If you gave him some large guys to beat the way that Hogan beat Bundy, Shark, and Andre then he could have had some filler. I could have seen the Warrior holding the title going into Wrestle mania 8 even against Flair which needed to happen.

Of course, Hogan was more than willing to go back into the spotlight once the Warrior didn't pan out.

 

[Wald]

It is a little like when CM Punk had that lengthy title reign and yet Cena was still considered the top dog and booked as such. WWE never wanted Punk to eclipse Cena and I think Vince got cold feet on Warrior taking Hogan's spot pretty soon after Mania. Why? I'd hazard a guess that it was because Warrior's attitude to being the number one babyface wasn't the same as Hogan. In Bret's book he gives Hogan all the kudos in the world for taking his spot seriously and spending a lot of time with kids and charity work, something he says Warrior just wasn't interested in doing. I'd believe that because it's not like Bret is going to put Hogan over unless he absolutely means it.

As for on-screen and why Warrior never eclipsed Hogan. Well I honestly think it was a mistake to have Warrior beat Hogan for his first title run. Splitting the audience for your new babyface's big title win is never a good thing and that's what happened at Wrestlemania VI. I think if Vince hadn't got cold feet than a better way to get Warrior over would have been to Rude or maybe Savage beat him for the title at Summerslam (by cheating of course) and set Warrior up for the chase again. He could have dropped the title to Rude at Summerslam, won it back at the Royal Rumble and defended it against Savage at Wrestlemania in that fantastic career match.

Even fantasy booking that though you run in to problems. Leaving to one side Warrior's walkout before Summerslam 91 than the question still comes up as to who he could have fought? Earthquake and Slaughter would have presumably been fed to Hogan still and outside of that there really weren't any top heels to work with in 1991 after Wrestlemania and before Flair came in.

 

[Pedigree1]

More of Hogan being top dog IMO and being paired against the mighty earthquake and well by then the Warrior had peaked in terms of where he could go.. Warrior was always some sort of cartoon character which was fine,i never cared for him TBH.. Hogan sorta evolved coming up the following mania while Warrior had a battle against Rude which IMO he should have lost the title against him at Summerslam..

But as soon as Warrior left,Hogan was indeed more than happy to step back into the spotlight BROTHA!

 

[rmp0012002]

I think Vince trying to create the company's top guy when that guy, Hogan, already existed was Warriors problem but as in most cases of champions not getting over, the booking wasn't set up to elevate him.

 

[Goldie]

Warrior was hugely popular with the kids, but didn't attract as wider fanbase as Hogan did. Warriors promos were too 'out there'.... sure the kids didn't mind, they didn't even have to try to understand.... but compare that to Hogans charisma and American hero status that shone across the mainstream media

As Edge alluded to on the Self Destruction DVD... once Warrior beat Hogan at WM6, it divided a section of the fans. Edge said that as a Hogan fan he couldn't get behind Warrior, defeating his hero... and his allegiance remained with Hogan.

 

[Jonyboyuk2]

There were lots of reasons for Warrior not being as big as Hogan after WM6. Firstly, the way Hogan handed the belt to Warrior after the match made Warrior a bit of a Heel in some fans minds. Read Hogans book for the line "he just beat me in front of 60,000 fans and as I left the ring after giving him the belt - he stood there celebrating and nobody cared" or words to that effect. Hogan did that as he was trying to weaken Warrior for when he returned from filming Surburan Commando. Warrior was given the belt to cover Hogans absense as he went "hollywood".

As much as the fans loved Warrior, there were many backstage who struggled with him at time; he alienated the talent, would hurt his opponents and he upset the locker room leader -Andre the Giant. If you read Bret Harts book - he notes how different things were and how Warrior didn't seem to be the same kind of world champ that Hogan was in the dressing room. Not only that but Warrior was difficult to manage from Vince McMahons position at times.

The other major thing here is this too - you only look as good as your opponent makes you. As Warrior was doing 90 Seconds in the ring with Andre every night - he wasn't the drawer people expected him to be. He also did not bring the business in on the PPV's and house shows. His merchandise sales were decent but he was not the Hogan type of drawer. And fans got sick of the run to the ring, shake the ropes, running clothesline or shoulder barge then the gorrilla press slam and big splash combo. But Warrior had to wrestle these matches so short - he was not that good in the ring.

When Hogan was written off TV with the Earthquake splash - the fans felt sympathy for Hogan - and they were missing him and didn't care about the Warrior as much as WWF would have liked.

Unfortunately, the character ran out of steam.

His most remarkable match as champion was V Rick Rude at Summerslam 90. Rude was a genius in the ring - but he was never the mega drawer that others were.

There were many reasons. That said -Warrior was an entertaining guy to watch and I loved watching him as a kid - he was my hero when I was 7!

 

[bioshock]

I content the problem was that Hogan was still around and took what should have been Warrior's 1st feud post Mania against Earthquake. Earthquake was the only legitimate monster main event heel they had at the time and instead of following the formula that worked for them for over 5 years and feeding that heel to the champ, they instead gave that feud to Hogan. Even though Warrior was the champ he did not get the top program. That killed the momentum he had as it was apparent that Hogan was still the champ just without the title based on the program.

Warrior should have had the program Hogan had with Earthquake in the spring/summer/fall of 90. Then after he slays the beast, he moves on to Macho as he did back then only this time holding the title against Slaughter (Slaughter gets himself DQed and along with Macho continues to beat down Warrior until Hogan makes the save to set up his match with Slaughter as it was just minus the title). We get a Slaughter/Macho v Warrior/Hogan match at SNME and then after Warrior defeats Macho at Mania you begin year 2 of his title reign with him just as hot as he was after Mania VI.

100% agree, anyone who says otherwise, Warrior would of been red hot in 2nd year as champion, and could of gone on for a 3rd year as champion.

In defense to poor house shows. The WWF roster just wasn't as strong after Warrior become champion, it was no fault to the Warrior, the roster just wasn't as good after WM6. Take into account all the roster changes and losses. Andre retired, Demolition did a complete 180 from faces to heels, and then a 3 man group, Ax and Smash were never the same, Hart Foundation were splitting up, the tag division was smaller, and SNME was all but done.

One of the strong points during the 80s was the Hogan and Andre feud, and Hogan had such strong and over competition like Andre, Piper, Savage and others. Compare Hogan v Andre to Warrior v Earthquake, feud didn't happen, but its not the same. And Warrior v Rude was no Hogan v Savage Mega Powers feud either.

So besides all that, why his run didn't last longer, No doubt Vince was scared stiff of a change, but not only that, I bet he thought Hogan was the golden cash cow, and at that time he was prolly more worried about money then anything else. Why else did Savage run end like it did. He never won again until Hogan retired. Undertaker won, but only had the belt a week. I bet Vince wanted Hogan to win the 92 Rumble, and if not that I bet Vince wanted Hogan to leave WM8 as the champion, but Hogan said otherwise. Just how bad Vince ran things, I mean look at how WM9 went down, and how its gone down with Cena.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

That era was not unlike right now, the parallels are actually pretty startling when you look at them

You had a babyface on top in Hogan/Cena, safe hands who were more than capable of carrying the company like Savage/Orton and talents who Vince just didn't want to get behind... in favour of his chosen one in this case Warrior/Reigns.

Vince made a lot of mistakes talent wise in that period that he is in danger of repeating now/is already doing so.

It's wrong to say Rude was not a draw, he was but it was never given a fair chance but he was without question the top heel of that time. That he went to WCW and drew there with Sting, for the SECOND title was proof, but Vince bowed to Hogan in particular who point blank refused to lose to him, and if Hogan wasn't gonna then Warrior wasn't again. Rude balked at this treatment and went to prove his point, which he did with aplomb.

Sound familiar? You have at least 3 guys who have walked in recent years but Punk and Rude are basically the same situation, just replace Trips for Hogan keeping him down.

Those poor decisions led to knock on effects that damaged the building of talent for a number of years. Losing Rude, arguably cost them some pushes. Curt Hennig never "got over" as he could have, had Rude won that title and fought him for it he would have, rather than Warrior destroying him. Rude would have been able to work with Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Davey Boy, Kerry even Ric Flair as a face or Ricky Steamboat for that World title... helping to build those guys sooner and more effectively.

Going with Warrior ultimately backfired because within a year he was gone and there was a big void to fill, which Vince tried with big men for a period before realising Bret was the best he would get and Shawn would have to do as the 2nd... only the fluke of Austin saved him in reality.

It wasn't ALL Warrior's doing, Hogan was sabotaging him left and right... arguably a loss to Rude at SS90 and a Rumble win/regain the title at Mania 7 would have done more, but cos Hogan was running Rude down for being too small it gave Warrior the chance to as well.

Just think how they have damaged the future of their roster now by letting Punk slip through their fingers, sure some will still get over but Reigns v Punk now rather than Lesnar would sell Mania, and those matches they have lost with Neville, Balor, Owens... hell could you imagine Bryan (the Bret Hart of 1990) vs Punk headlining this Mania... off the charts.

It literally took years for them to get over the error, meanwhile Warrior had been fired twice while Rude was, until 1994 the best worker in the business... had he not gotten hurt he was already planning the return to the WWF once Hogan signed...and we got robbed a 2nd time.

It's not the only bad call made, they made a joke of Warrior quite quickly, particularly the infamous Phil Collins video. Decorum prohibits me posting a link, but look at it if you haven't, then that Rude (his most natural and storied opponent) left and you can see quickly why it fizzled for Warrior.

Every Superman needs a Lex Luthor or General Zod and Rude was that guy for Warrior... he just didn't want him to be and thus it didn't happen.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Was it the ego of Hogan. Was it the fact Vince wanted Hogan to stay at number one.

There were three reasons Warrior didn't stay champion:

1) Hogan
2) Hogan
3) Hogan

....in that order.

I was shocked and pleased when Hogan agreed to lose that title match to Warrior in the first place. All I could think of at the time was Hogan having a pre-match meeting with Vince McMahon, saying: "Okay, brother, I'll lose the match as long as you do the following things for me........" ......and although I don't know what those things were, they must have been pretty tasty morsels for Hogan.

Probably, it worked out in the end for everyone....for Warrior, who got a taste of the world championship in an era of Hogan dominance (speaking more of Hulk's personal influence and creative control than his fighting credentials), Hogan got whatever the hell he wanted.....and the WWE fan base got a treat too, seeing someone else with the belt, even though we knew damn well Hogan would wear it again before long.

But, hey! For all the animosity many held against Hogan during his greatest era for the way he put himself first and held others down, he did do this job, and we all benefited from it.

Warrior was too hot to deny at that time, and I'm glad they acknowledged it with this particular match.

 

[dd23beatlesfan1]

Even fantasy booking that though you run in to problems. Leaving to one side Warrior's walkout before Summerslam 91 than the question still comes up as to who he could have fought? Earthquake and Slaughter would have presumably been fed to Hogan still and outside of that there really weren't any top heels to work with in 1991 after Wrestlemania and before Flair came in.

Definitely disagree with that. He had two hot heels to feud with. One being the Undertaker, which is exactly who he did actually feud with post Wrestlemania VII. That feud was hot and drew well. Better than the Hogan/Slaughter feud, post WM 7. Imagine if Warrior was champion when the Undertaker blindsided him and put him in the coffin. That would've drawn 10X more sympathy for your babyface champion than when Earthquake almost "ended Hogan's career." That feud would've also elevated Taker even faster than he already was. Fighting the champion in the main events 5 months into his WWF career.

And then there was Jake Roberts turning heel in the weeks leading up to Summerslam and building the "Unholy Alliance" between Jake Roberts, Undertaker, and Paul Bearer. Which was the very direction they were going in before Warrior left.

Warrior had plenty to do in between Wrestlemania and Summerslam that year. If Warrior leaves, get the belt off him quickly and start the Hogan/Taker feud like they did. If he stays, have Taker eventually beat him for the title (maybe at Survivor Series instead of against Hogan). Do the series of matches with controversial endings to lead to the title being up for grabs at the Rumble with Flair winning, and at that point, Hogan has to get back in the title scene to challenge Flair for the title at Wrestlemania.


Anyways, point being, Warrior definitely had plenty to do as champion after Wrestlemania.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The damage was done in 1990, not 91... by then it didn't matter because too much of his potential had been squandered.

If they hadn't gone with Rude, they needed to sign Vader instead of WCW... he vs Warrior could have done something in 91, but they let nearly all their good heels go in that period or wasted them. Rude, Honky Tonk, Greg Valentine or had wasted their earlier potential like Perfect, DiBiase, The Warlord, Bossman and Earthquake. Mainly cos they all had to be fed to Hogan and THEN Warrior... They then didn't follow through properly with the Jake and Taker feuds and the holdup killed it. God he could have even turned Dusty Rhodes heel on Warrior...

"I'm thick of the Polka Dotth, now Ultimate Warrior you meeth tha reaaal amewican dream Duthy Rhodeth..." Would have been better than hitching him to Slaughter and his crew... Dusty was still a GREAT promo guy and he could have done a great "You're are only a man..." type gimmick against Warrior...but Vince would rather he wore Polka Dots and danced...

Flair didn't even debut till Warrior was gone, Taker was dicked about with the title...again by Hogan. For all the "Vince is a genius" stuff he has NEVER got how to properly use his heels... if one gets over he has to make them face immediately they get the title and he uses Flair as the excuse.

 

[FlairFan2003]

People also forget that wrestling attendance OVER ALL was down as 1990 wore on and into 1991, 1989 was a much bigger year in WCW with Flair-Funk and Sting-Muta than the 1990 programs with Sting-Sid, Sting vs Mystery Man, etc. Interest in the business as a whole was declining (there really weren't any other promotions at all at this point except I believe the VERY end of the AWA and USWA/Jerry Lawler).

Vince has ALWAYS been one to go back to basics anytime something doesn't live up to expectations....He spent most of the mid 90s trying to find ANYONE who could replace Brett Hart as #1 guy but always ran right back to him....Yes, business declined under Hart, yes he couldn't deliver anything other than average promos, charisma wasn't his strong suit, but he was popular enough that he carried the ball better than alternatives Vince toyed with such as Luger, Yokozuna, & Kevin Nash. It wasn't until he felt comfortable with HBK that he truly made the switch, and even then when business didn't meet his expectations he ended up going back to Hart.

Wrestling in general is like this.....Why has John Cena stayed on top so long....maybe WWE should have given others more of a chance to equal him but anytime business needed a boast he is the guy who does it. Cena is the Brett Hart of today, big star in a down time.

Warrior had a bad relationship all the way in WWE, many talents didn't like his attitude and complained about his dangerously poor & sloppy ring work, there were numerous money issues with Vince. THAT more than anything is what ruined him....he couldn't get along with Vince and he couldn't get along with talent (many of whom didn't like working with him as he was so bad in the ring). Of course maybe we'd be seeing CM Punk main eventing W-Mania this year if not for his attitude and quitting the company and we wouldn't be talking about how long Jon Cena is STILL the #1 guy.....

Hogan always took care of himself....in a non unionized industry with no health care, no retirement, working as Independent Contractors he was better than anyone at protecting his brand and his marketability and maintaining his star power. You may not always agree with what he did (I certainly don't) but I clearly understand why he did it. Bottom line, guys like Vince & Bischoff had the final say and they let it happen.

Still, I think Warrior would have had a longer career and better run if not for his own behavior, not so much Hogan. Plus, lets not forget Warrior was being groomed to beat Flair at S-Series in 92, the entire main event storyline of S-Slam was constructed to make Flair champ and Warrior his #1 challenger and they were feuding all over TV and on tour....until Flair got hurt and Vince pulled the plug and went with Hart as champ. If Warrior hadn't been a backstage headache maybe he gets the belt back regardless of Flair's injury, maybe like Hart he gets it sooner before the PPV (Flair was off TV for 4-5 weeks while undergoing treatment for an ear injury ironically caused by a botched spot in a match with Warrior)....Warrior went from #1 contender and almost lock to win the title to basically not even in the company from late October on in 1992 (other than getting beat up on SNME by Flair & Scott Hall after Flair returned how much TV did he do after Hart got the belt ??).

Warrior did far more to hurt himself than Hogan or anyone else. Despite Hogan's politicking and self protection he wasn't able to destroy the careers of Randy Savage, Flair, or Sting for instance, they all somehow "Survived Hogan" even if they didn't always get the fair shake they may have deserved.